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  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yup, it works for the dynamics of you two. And, after all these years, it's not like each of you aren't aware of what the other is "playing" at - so if both consent, no harm, no foul.

    But, like I told SS, I'm not her SO, and my response (inquiry) wasn't really about wanting to hear a justification for the behaviour (as I assumed that's between the person and their SO), and I don't care......it was more about why such a response irks me.



    It sounds like you guys interchange the parent-child role, quite often? One must become infantile/helpless, and the other feels validated by rescuing them from that state.*

    You guys want to be with each other, not because you need to be with the other, right?
    (I guess it's all a game of give-and-take flirtation...so I'll leave that alone, it's your dynamics with you SO)

    * Amar, you and I had disucssed this. I guess the major difference between us is that such behaviour was (one of) the ultimate demise of my relationship with my INTJ, while to you and your INTJ, it's the ultimate security.

    I read it as patronizing, infringing upon my independence, and I would have none of it. It literally felt like I wanted to push him away, forcefully, again and again, the more he seemed to want to "help me" for a perceived "helplessness" of mine...by the highlighting of the weakness. Unless I asked explicitly. I don't like "help" as much as I like being taught - "Help" me to do it myself.

    Claustrophobic. Tightening. Wanting to scream bloody murder. Was my state. I kinda detest weakness - on some subconscious level.
    Are you by chance socionics INFJ? Just something I noticed how what I percieve to be a difference between J/P while actions may be similiar they respond different. You kinda outlined it here as what matters is intentions as intentions is what drives the response. you didnt intend to, but thats how he saw it. Me and my wife have got into this arguement before.

    I snapped at something she said and she snapped back. I responded that if I got her intentions wrong and she knew it why did she snap back at me instead of trying to resolve it or explain it right there. She argued that I just need to change how I respond. Sounds similiar to what you went through.

    In your case you could have kept saying you didnt need help when he tried and he could have just stopped trying. I am guessing both are driven in natural responses.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #512
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    you're so smart you nonconformist. go ahead and bake your brownies and bring your cupcakes to make everyone bend to your will. it's sooooo brilliant and masterminding!!!!

    i do agree that Fi in intj is where that self-assuredness of divine right generally comes from in intj types. what's ultimately true for them and grounding and reinforces the value of their choices, goals, plans, actions, is the subjective truth of Fi without critically checking what Fi values say are true.

    i also find the differences between infj appreciation of Ti and intj appreciation of Ti interesting. infjs love Ti bc it provides foundation, well-organized understanding, and grounded critical relationships to give Ni more solid material to blend into Ni understanding. whereas intjs oftentimes seem to find Ti to be a nuisance that gets in the way of their grandiose plans, rather than a useful tool to check the value and objective reality/meaning of said goals.

    i don't understand why this is, tho perhaps there is a similar experience for infj with Fi. welcoming it selectively and when it feels relevant for one's own project, but getting frustrated when it threatens to bog it down with what don't seem like useful objections.
    I think there's a lot to that Fe is to Fi as Te is to Ti observation. I was watching a series of youtube videos with an INFP and INFJ going at it. The INFJ was expressing the same kind of frustration with the INFP as an INTJ would toward an INTP (very diplomatic; they were talking about the frustration, not being frustrated) ... except it was all dealing with feelings instead of objective theoretical observations.

    For my part, I don't think Ti gets in the way so much as the Ne from an INTP hides crucial info from me, that it takes forever to get out. I don't find my own Ti anywhere nearly so annoying.

    With respect to Te vs. Fe, I find that INFJs tend to sound a lot like INTJs to me. It's only when we disagree that I find out it's an INFJ, because the terms of the disagreement take a long time to discover.

    And yes, I think you're right with respect to Fi. It's where our confidence lies. However, I think you have it backwards: Fi isn't confident in its feeling/subjective truths, but rather it is confident in Te's objective truths, which are verified in the real world. (It is a naive confidence, at times, but gradually less so as the INTJ matures.)

  3. #513
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Q...you know how when you're together with someone and you don't say anything, but use bodylanguage to indicate what you want? Particularly in bed, but also just coz..well you know one another and you just squeeze theirh and to let them know you care, or what not? And in essence, your hands can guide someone to the bed, or push them down, or make their body respond to yours... = manipulation

    Ask a Se-user, they 'talk' primarily like this. And they don't need words to get what the other wants.

    Fi does the same. Just emotionally. Often we use innuendo instead of actual concrete words to do so.. a dramatic voice, a facial expression, a typical reaction which cues the other to our state of mind. A certain phrase in a certain context. All those things are buttons you can push to change the other person's mood. Much like you'd position your lovers body on the bed and show them what you want without speaking, emotionally manipulating the other person's emotional state shows them what you want...what you're thinking. And they have the right to reject that request, and they will if need be. But yeah, in essence, it is a manipulation of their emotional state to sync in with yours.

    The reason we do it? Coz it feels intense, closely connected, builds intimacy, feels safe. It's something you two share, and is special. It feels like a sweet caress, but instead of your body, it caresses your mind and soul..your heart.

    What you're suggesting sounds to me like bartering and haggling. Way more rocky road, way less smooth. Kinda like telling your partner to get in bed already. Way to ruin the moment, seriously. Two people who sync up rarely need more than half a word. Words become obsolete. It's the tone or vibe behind them that works, or the bodylanguage that transfers true meaning. Syncing up is what I seek, and crave. It's utter bliss.
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  4. #514
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Are you by chance socionics INFJ? Just something I noticed how what I percieve to be a difference between J/P while actions may be similiar they respond different. You kinda outlined it here as what matters is intentions as intentions is what drives the response. you didnt intend to, but thats how he saw it. Me and my wife have got into this arguement before.

    I snapped at something she said and she snapped back. I responded that if I got her intentions wrong and she knew it why did she snap back at me instead of trying to resolve it or explain it right there. She argued that I just need to change how I respond. Sounds similiar to what you went through.

    In your case you could have kept saying you didnt need help when he tried and he could have just stopped trying. I am guessing both are driven in natural responses.
    Yes, it is about intention, but not intention at a conscious level. The intention can be good, pure, but, if the underlying intention is manipulation, I will respond either: (1) give you an unpenetrable wall, or, (2) take it as an invitation for a free-for-all to manipulate back, and I will manipulate in such a way that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

    Manipulation (good or bad) to me is an infringement on my autonomy, and I will fight tooth and nails to eradicate it.

    There's more than one way to go about something. If our relationship is of any value, come to me honestly, all cards on the table, transparency....

    The INTJ ex and I had discussed, and I knew right away when his intentions were good, and even pointed that out to him, I know you do X to help me, but, helping me by infringing on my autonomy is more a hindrance than a help. Teach me to be my own master, not to be indebted/rely on your mastery.

    And, I don't think I'm socionics INFJ. I think you're seeing the conflict between Fe and Fi processing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Q...you know how when you're together with someone and you don't say anything, but use bodylanguage to indicate what you want? Particularly in bed, but also just coz..well you know one another and you just squeeze theirh and to let them know you care, or what not? And in essence, your hands can guide someone to the bed, or push them down, or make their body respond to yours... = manipulation
    I don't see this as manipulation, like I've used the term thus far. This is giving in such a way that you imply they can openly take. It is consensual. The way I've used manipulation is when someone is being made/directed to react in such a way because they're not privy to all the truth/information. I would call your quoted, persuasion.


    Fi does the same. Just emotionally. Often we use innuendo instead of actual concrete words to do so.. a dramatic voice, a facial expression, a typical reaction which cues the other to our state of mind. A certain phrase in a certain context. All those things are buttons you can push to change the other person's mood. Much like you'd position your lovers body on the bed and show them what you want without speaking, emotionally manipulating the other person's emotional state shows them what you want...what you're thinking. And they have the right to reject that request, and they will if need be. But yeah, in essence, it is a manipulation of their emotional state to sync in with yours.

    The reason we do it? Coz it feels intense, closely connected, builds intimacy, feels safe. It's something you two share, and is special. It feels like a sweet caress, but instead of your body, it caresses your mind and soul..your heart.
    Sorry, Amar, the bolded does not resonate with me at all. If anything, it feels the opposite of safe, it feels like an illusion of safety, an illusion of intimacy, an illusion of connection. Since, it's built on the framework of manipulation.

    What you're suggesting sounds to me like bartering and haggling. Way more rocky road, way less smooth. Kinda like telling your partner to get in bed already. Way to ruin the moment, seriously. Two people who sync up rarely need more than half a word. Words become obsolete. It's the tone or vibe behind them that works, or the bodylanguage that transfers true meaning. Syncing up is what I seek, and crave. It's utter bliss.
    We navigate this social world through "bartering and haggling" - compromise. It too can be delivered with a flirty tone, with persuasiveness, with gentleness. Persuasion +. Manipulation -. Persuasion is different than manipluation. It's like selling an used car. You lay out its true, honest fault, and then give such a sales pitch that you make a case for why even with its faults, it's still a good deal. Manipulation is when you hide the faults of the car, highlight "false" (trite) faults, or, "strengths" and present it in a way that it makes the car a good deal.

  5. #515
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yes. And, yes, manipulation is not necessarily bad, because the thing being manipulated can be a good thing (wanted) by both parties. I understand your pov.

    However, and other ENTPs can comment, to me, in a way, all manipulation is "bad".

    In this, I mean that manipulation is an influence that the other is not fully aware of, and as such, it feels like an infringement on the other's free will.

    I think it's like a huge faux pas for me, because it makes reality "selective".

    E.g., I see default state (without manipulation) as having a la carte to all the possible realities of a moment, unconstrained Ne. Free for my taking, any way I want to. Truth.

    So when someone tries to "manipulate" me, it's like a cardinal sin, because they are trying to narrow down, skew, the possible Ne associations that is there for my taking. And, they're trying to decide which "Ne" would be valid/should be presented to me/for me.

    It feels like an infringment on my most basic rights regarding thoughts. Hence, "bad"=manipulation.
    I actually do detest being manipulated, good or bad. Like, someone is suprising me, and, giving this elaborate story, of wanting me to go the movies with them (so the others could decorate my room for when we returned)....of course, it's harmless and "good" manipulation. It's thoughtful on their part. But, it irked me so bad. I guess it's the idea that they even believe I can be manipulated - which irks me so. Ask me, simply, just, ask me (give me this respect, autonomy). To meet you at equal footing.
    I could not agree more with both of these statements. Manipulation hits me in a wrong, wrong place - it's like a gut punch combined with righteous indignation.

    The gut punch comes from betrayal and disrespect. Manipulation seriously violates my internalized "golden rule" - I sure as hell don't want to be manipulated, so I don't manipulate others. I know sometimes it can be more advantageous to do so, but I quite distinctly cannot do it... until you give me a reason to. You violate that rule, it's revenge time - after the righteous indignation passes, I wouldn't be shocked if ice crystals form in the blood.

    The righteous indignation could also be called arrogance; I see that as an apt comparison. This arises from the dissolution of the bonds of trust - remember, we generally trust others until they give us a reason not to. It's literally a feeling of "YOU really think you could sneak that past ME?" I know when I could potentially be duped - NeTi is always looking for outcomes. However, I trusted you to do the right thing by me, since I've given you no reason not to. You fucked up by manipulating, I fucked up by trusting you. I don't get nearly as mad as anyone as I do myself, but you did yourself a favor, buddy, by giving me a justified target to transfer the rage to.

    Yes, it feels disingenuous to me, as I'm guessing ENTPs Fe would feel to you (but for different reasons).
    In me, it evokes the thoughts of "what are you trying to prove, and to whom?" leading to "come on, seriously, get over yourself" and then to "shut the fuck up, no one gives a shit but you". At that point, it's frustration over unfairly burdening others with personal issues.

    That being said, if I know you and am close, this sort of tenacity gives me a good thing to advocate for.

    See the common threads? Agreement. Reciprocality. Fairness.

  6. #516
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    What you're suggesting sounds to me like bartering and haggling. Way more rocky road, way less smooth. Kinda like telling your partner to get in bed already. Way to ruin the moment, seriously.
    You're telling me that "take me to bed or I'll leave you forever" isn't romantic as hell? Or "last one to the bed makes breakfast"?

    It's cheeky. Playful. Fun. Acting how two people who make each other genuinely joyful in each other's presence should. Meanwhile, the silent treatment just leaves me isolated, not knowing your motivations or even your emotional state. Did you do it out of obligation or sexual desire?

    Two people who sync up rarely need more than half a word. Words become obsolete. It's the tone or vibe behind them that works, or the bodylanguage that transfers true meaning. Syncing up is what I seek, and crave. It's utter bliss.
    That may be true for you, but as you know, it's not everyone's reality. If I'm not getting constant external feedback, I don't know what direction to go in.

  7. #517
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, this is more interesting. Happy Puppy, that's a great analysis of INTJs; balanced, because the flaws are strengths and vice versa, depending on the situation.

    Fe is important, as OMT says. But with INTJs you get something slightly different: with the lack of Fe (by which I mean the Fe that one emotionally feels, that motivation to conform), INTJs that become "socially adept" are doing more of an ENTJ thing, using Te instead of Fe. There is no need to conform, but there is a logistical problem of getting people to cooperate. It is possible, with a great deal of experience and skill, to use Te to that end, and have it (almost) seem like Fe. The difference is the motivation. The desire to "fit in" is lacking. Instead, the motivation is whatever goal the Te user has set, for which "fitting in" is simply a step to take to avoid the annoying problems caused by not fitting in.

    First off. Great post.
    It got me thinking.

    I'd like to think of myself as a socially adept INTJ. My Fe has always been high up on the list just under Te in functions tests...
    You're saying that it isn't really Fe, but Te?

    We have a small dilemma. I know that my motivations for doing things normally associated with ENFJs/ENFPs is different than theirs...
    But does that mean that Fi is motivating Fe doms like the ENFJ?
    That's kind of what you are describing, right?
    It's kind of interesting that the ENFJ generally have a lesser priority for Introverted Feeling than the INTJ and yet have this emotional motivation for using Fe?
    Doesn't make sense.

    I'd have it that it would be the other way around, to be honest.
    ENFJs and ESFJs seem to motivate their stuff subconsciously but logically,
    whereas INTJs do it manually with some mix of that they really care and that it's more practical.


    Deviating from the subject a bit...
    It's probably easier to make out one of the socially inept aspie-like or actual aspie INTJs than a "real" ones, because most sane ones would have learned how to use Fe (or Te, i'm not dismissing what you said, uumlau) to read and accommodate people.
    Not saying I hate aspies, I just know from a lot of personal experience that they are really hard to like in the first place and the rest is a big challenge.
    And in this particular case, seeming like they are more numerous, they give the rest of us a bad name.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  8. #518
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Sorry, Amar, the bolded does not resonate with me at all. If anything, it feels the opposite of safe, it feels like an illusion of safety, an illusion of intimacy, an illusion of connection. Since, it's built on the framework of manipulation.



    We navigate this social world through "bartering and haggling" - compromise. It too can be delivered with a flirty tone, with persuasiveness, with gentleness. Persuasion +. Manipulation -. Persuasion is different than manipluation. It's like selling an used car. You lay out its true, honest fault, and then give such a sales pitch that you make a case for why even with its faults, it's still a good deal. Manipulation is when you hide the faults of the car, highlight "false" (trite) faults, or, "strengths" and present it in a way that it makes the car a good deal.

    It creates a social distance, to me at least. The purpose of the sync up, to me, is to become almost one. Much like dancing couples become an extension of each other, much like in sex, it becomes awesome when the individual lines blur..the same can be reached emotionally. What you're suggesting is great to get people to cooperate..but it won't blurr the lines

    And I have no problem with someone gently nudging me emotionally, to sync up with me. I'll instantly notice it and smile. And the intention behind it is usually crystal clear. If a guy tries to just get in my pants by being sugar sweet and reading me emotionally to use to his advantage, I'll smile and give him the run around. I appreciate his attempt, but it's unlikely to work *grin*. If my SO comes up to me and hugs me tightly, I know he's stressed, and seeking a release valve. I can feel his need, his craving and his relief of pain as he holds me. Why on earth would I ever deny him that? Why would I ever want to make him voice it, somethign he's not comfortable with, and which would take away from that moment of unity? That doesn't make sense to me. There's no need for words. Understanding is already there. And the fact that nobody else sees what I see just adds to it. He shares that moment with me, and me alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You're telling me that "take me to bed or I'll leave you forever" isn't romantic as hell? Or "last one to the bed makes breakfast"?

    It's cheeky. Playful. Fun. Acting how two people who make each other genuinely joyful in each other's presence should. Meanwhile, the silent treatment just leaves me isolated, not knowing your motivations or even your emotional state. Did you do it out of obligation or sexual desire?



    That may be true for you, but as you know, it's not everyone's reality. If I'm not getting constant external feedback, I don't know what direction to go in.
    I'm merely explaining to Q why to me these things aren't manipulation in a bad way. I'm aware others don't experience it this way

    And yes, it is cheeky and playful, and it can lead to more. It's unlikely to turn me on. I'm more likely to hit you with a pillow if you say that to me, in order to at least build up some sexual tension. I've had sex in this state, and it leads to giggle-sex. While fun, not my fav.

    My fav type of sex comes from losing yourself in one another, syncing up. To me, syncing up is silent. It's breathing together, reading each others bodylanguage, *knowing* what the other feels and allowing your body to naturally make the next move in order to communicate to your partner what you want, to communicate what you're feeling to them and transfer that emotion to them, so they in turn can respond to you emotionally...it's building up an emotional orgasm, as well as a physical one.
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  9. #519
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    See the common threads? Agreement. Reciprocality. Fairness.
    Jenocyde was discussing with me one time, and she summed up Fe quite well. It's fairness.

    At it's default state it is blinded, balanced scale.


    While Fi as a default state is eyes wide open, unbalanced scale.


    Fi is passion over agreement. Impact over reciprocity. Personal values over fairness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It creates a social distance, to me at least. The purpose of the sync up, to me, is to become almost one. Much like dancing couples become an extension of each other, much like in sex, it becomes awesome when the individual lines blur..the same can be reached emotionally. What you're suggesting is great to get people to cooperate..but it won't blurr the lines
    I don't see how this is achieved solely by manipulation, and cannot be achieved by persuasion (without manipulation)?

    It is cooperative in that both acknowledge they want to "meld" into one another for that moment, and both come together, freely, both move to the center together, each taking their own step. To meet.

    It's euphoric, when you know that they want to be there (not feeling like they "need" to be there - manipulated to feel so), and they met you there, out of their own free will.

    And I have no problem with someone gently nudging me emotionally, to sync up with me. I'll instantly notice it and smile. And the intention behind it is usually crystal clear.
    To me, it's about them being naked emotionally, and I come to them, out of my own volition, because I see their nakedness, their honest vulnerability, and given such an honest state of being, I want to cover them.

    I wouldn't need a nudge. I'd feel guilty if, in such a state, they needed to nudge me for me to come to them. Their state, with or without me there, that vulnerability of the emotion, the honest emotion, is what will draw me. Not the one they present because they just saw me walk in to the room.

    If a guy tries to just get in my pants by being sugar sweet and reading me emotionally to use to his advantage, I'll smile and give him the run around. I appreciate his attempt, but it's unlikely to work *grin*. If my SO comes up to me and hugs me tightly, I know he's stressed, and seeking a release valve. I can feel his need, his craving and his relief of pain as he holds me. Why on earth would I ever deny him that? Why would I ever want to make him voice it, somethign he's not comfortable with, and which would take away from that moment of unity? That doesn't make sense to me. There's no need for words. Understanding is already there. And the fact that nobody else sees what I see just adds to it. He shares that moment with me, and me alone.
    Why are you associating manipulation with silence? Even if there's no manipulation, it can all occur without spoken words. Just as you have outlined above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You're telling me that "take me to bed or I'll leave you forever" isn't romantic as hell? Or "last one to the bed makes breakfast"?

    It's cheeky. Playful. Fun. Acting how two people who make each other genuinely joyful in each other's presence should. Meanwhile, the silent treatment just leaves me isolated, not knowing your motivations or even your emotional state. Did you do it out of obligation or sexual desire?



    That may be true for you, but as you know, it's not everyone's reality. If I'm not getting constant external feedback, I don't know what direction to go in.
    We already know if you do it out of obligation or desire. We can sense that while we are taking you down that road. We can sense any hesitation and fight along the way.

    Im not one to say I will race you to bed. I am more the one to hop over the couch, start kissing you on the neck. Or put my hand on the side of your face, touch foreheads, while I pull you close to me. I can sense the slightest hesitation when I take control and my mind is already racing to see if its fear, hesitation, etc, but you will never notice that as I continue to try to draw you in and I continue to try to figure out what path to take.

    I can tell if you feel obligated, its a natural part of who we are and what we have become accustomed to sensing. Doesnt mean I wont stop, but it does mean that I need to figure something else out to get past that obligation feeling. I can sense when the person pulls back to much though. The key is to not shut off what your senses are pulling in.

    P.S. those that do speak in this fashion, it is EXTREMELY obvious when we do out of obligation as opposed to desire. It is felt even without words.
    Im out, its been fun

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