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  1. #501
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Guys, maybe we should make a 'Analyze INTJs vs ENTPs'-thread for this..
    Heh, perhaps this is the answer to the "Why is INTJforum so boring?" thread: the INTJs there wanted to be sure that the ENTPs would leave their threads alone.

  2. #502
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    And they dont care if anyone likes them. They dont care if you get mad at them. They dont care what anyone thinks of them.
    This is not necessarily the case. We are good at hiding it. You see, Fi plays quite a role as the tertiary function of the INTJ. Why do we have such structure? Why do we try not to humiliate ourselves? We do we have pride? Why do we value honour? This is our Fi. It's a self-satisfaction that others and ourselves see us in our ideal state. Not in any state of wreck. Doing things of honor because of the sake of honor.

    My very best ENTP man-a senior VP-let me down recently once I saw how he also bought into the Fe social fabric in trade for Ti logic. But, perhaps key to his success-he surrounds himself with INTJs at the next level down. He has five now and turns them loose on nightmarish problems. It's brutal, yet fascinating.
    What? 5 INTJs? Something is quite wrong there. You sure they are all INTJs?

    A question-if an ENTP can recreate a social reality based upon Fe, can they create one in which they are isolated and function like an INTJ, becoming independent of the social fabric?
    No because Fe requires what is external. It requires a social aspect and lack of social aspect must equal lack of Fe at that particular moment.

  3. #503
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I already know it. It exists in the between. Or the not. Or maybe it doesn't exist at all. I at least know these.

    Is knowledge powerful? How do you define power?
    But 'maybe' is a saying used by those who lack the knowledge.
    Knowledge is indeed powerful. Power is that which we have no will to control. And if knowledge controls and cannot be controlled than knowledge is indeed powerful.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Not to disavow the possibility that Sim has had some life-changing experience elsewhere, but I would write this "change" down to being confronted (in a non-confrontational way, of course ) by an intelligent INTJ (and in the view of several other N-dom users).

    There's an odd connection between INTJs and ENTPs. I kinda knew Sim and I would eventually have this dialogue.
    He must have got a piece from the INFP he has been stressing about
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Fuck work, this is far more interesting. (once you apply compassionate detachment in the workplace, everything just goes downhill)

    Onemortime-a lack of Fe is what allows INTJs to move mountains.

    The can NiTe see every possible outcome, identify all disasters, all potholes, all barriers, mitigate and forge ahead. They cant see anything BUT reality-with every possible flaw, every permutation. And they dont care if anyone likes them. They dont care if you get mad at them. They dont care what anyone thinks of them.

    Even the most diehard Fe user, cannot deny the brute force and strategic power of NiTe. Combine that with the lack of Fe and not leading with Fi, and they are drivers regardless if anyone likes it.

    I am cursed with NeFi with a good dose of Te. I can NeTe see the whole fucking system melting down, I can't help but speak up and drive due to Te, yet am then left feeling utterly rejected due to NeFi wanting emotional affirmation. It's like I kick my own ass everyday. Maybe more like putting my own hand in the garbage disposal, yet I just cant quite stop myself. The truth/reality is just too obvious not to directly address.

    ENTPs are very different. You buy into the Fe social fabric. You recreate your own social reality using Fe and play it like an instrument, with exceptional beauty and skill, excluding those who are not suited to the game with knife-like precision. But at some point it, Fe reality and true reality are no longer the same. Fe reality is full of smiles and congratulations and slaps on the back, only affirmation.

    Reality is ugly, painful, full of failures and harsh. It must be addressed.

    My very best ENTP man-a senior VP-let me down recently once I saw how he also bought into the Fe social fabric in trade for Ti logic. But, perhaps key to his success-he surrounds himself with INTJs at the next level down. He has five now and turns them loose on nightmarish problems. It's brutal, yet fascinating.

    A question-if an ENTP can recreate a social reality based upon Fe, can they create one in which they are isolated and function like an INTJ, becoming independent of the social fabric?
    As inferior as my Fe is it still gets in the way every once in a while.

    On a side note, the thing I do that really gets under the skin of INTJ is when I start playing with their Ni. My dad had some system of how something like love or caring worked and right after he explained it I tore it down, twisted it around, and perfectly related it to part of terrorists. No matter what angle he took it lined up perfectly and you could see his frustration building because it was supposed to be some Fi, lovey dovey thing and I gutted it, stepped on it, and threw it to the dogs I never questioned the accuracy though and I thought he was right, just twisted it to show negative connotations of the same concept.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #506
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Guys, maybe we should make a 'Analyze INTJs vs ENTPs'-thread for this..
    Oh no, it's all about the love in the end... This is how ENFPs love people. We dissect their brains. It totally contributes to the "disaster".

    If I put I LOVE INTJs in all my posts and surround with wubbies will it be okay?

  7. #507
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Fe is important, as OMT says. But with INTJs you get something slightly different: with the lack of Fe (by which I mean the Fe that one emotionally feels, that motivation to conform), INTJs that become "socially adept" are doing more of an ENTJ thing, using Te instead of Fe. There is no need to conform, but there is a logistical problem of getting people to cooperate. It is possible, with a great deal of experience and skill, to use Te to that end, and have it (almost) seem like Fe. The difference is the motivation. The desire to "fit in" is lacking. Instead, the motivation is whatever goal the Te user has set, for which "fitting in" is simply a step to take to avoid the annoying problems caused by not fitting in.
    you're so smart you nonconformist. go ahead and bake your brownies and bring your cupcakes to make everyone bend to your will. it's sooooo brilliant and masterminding!!!!

    i do agree that Fi in intj is where that self-assuredness of divine right generally comes from in intj types. what's ultimately true for them and grounding and reinforces the value of their choices, goals, plans, actions, is the subjective truth of Fi without critically checking what Fi values say are true.

    i also find the differences between infj appreciation of Ti and intj appreciation of Ti interesting. infjs love Ti bc it provides foundation, well-organized understanding, and grounded critical relationships to give Ni more solid material to blend into Ni understanding. whereas intjs oftentimes seem to find Ti to be a nuisance that gets in the way of their grandiose plans, rather than a useful tool to check the value and objective reality/meaning of said goals.

    i don't understand why this is, tho perhaps there is a similar experience for infj with Fi. welcoming it selectively and when it feels relevant for one's own project, but getting frustrated when it threatens to bog it down with what don't seem like useful objections.

  8. #508
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think the funniest part about the INTJ-ENTP dynamic is that we understand the ENTP so well, but the ENTP seems to have no idea what makes us tick.
    Trying to make simulatedworld take the bait. Tick tock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Mostly, I use what SS did as a very lighthearted joke..
    She later admitted (as did Z; present his side), it wasn't really as lighthearted a "joke" as she initially presented it to be.

    And although it is something that if I were to do it more seriously, would harm him, he knows me well enough to know what I'm up to and he'll respond to the little game we got going that way (usually ends up in the bed somewhere ).
    Yup, it works for the dynamics of you two. And, after all these years, it's not like each of you aren't aware of what the other is "playing" at - so if both consent, no harm, no foul.

    But, like I told SS, I'm not her SO, and my response (inquiry) wasn't really about wanting to hear a justification for the behaviour (as I assumed that's between the person and their SO), and I don't care......it was more about why such a response irks me.

    The pouting I do, coz he likes it. Yes, I know, it's weird. But he does. It's comparable to a kitten being stuck in a ball of yarn and looking at you with big eyes 'Help me!'. He finds it utterly adorable and amusing. And yes, I have 'abused' it in the way that you say. But he does that just fine with me too, he has his own tricks to get me to do things
    It sounds like you guys interchange the parent-child role, quite often? One must become infantile/helpless, and the other feels validated by rescuing them from that state.*

    You guys want to be with each other, not because you need to be with the other, right?
    (I guess it's all a game of give-and-take flirtation...so I'll leave that alone, it's your dynamics with you SO)

    * Amar, you and I had disucssed this. I guess the major difference between us is that such behaviour was (one of) the ultimate demise of my relationship with my INTJ, while to you and your INTJ, it's the ultimate security.

    I read it as patronizing, infringing upon my independence, and I would have none of it. It literally felt like I wanted to push him away, forcefully, again and again, the more he seemed to want to "help me" for a perceived "helplessness" of mine...by the highlighting of the weakness. Unless I asked explicitly. I don't like "help" as much as I like being taught - "Help" me to do it myself.

    Claustrophobic. Tightening. Wanting to scream bloody murder. Was my state. I kinda detest weakness - on some subconscious level.

    The reason you didn't like the comment is probably becoz it reeks of manipulation. I have a permit for it though from him
    And not all manipulation is necessarily bad. He knows he can trust me to use it with care, that I would never purposefully take advantage of him or harm him.
    Yes. And, yes, manipulation is not necessarily bad, because the thing being manipulated can be a good thing (wanted) by both parties. I understand your pov.

    However, and other ENTPs can comment, to me, in a way, all manipulation is "bad".

    In this, I mean that manipulation is an influence that the other is not fully aware of, and as such, it feels like an infringement on the other's free will.

    I think it's like a huge faux pas for me, because it makes reality "selective".

    E.g., I see default state (without manipulation) as having a la carte to all the possible realities of a moment, unconstrained Ne. Free for my taking, any way I want to. Truth.

    So when someone tries to "manipulate" me, it's like a cardinal sin, because they are trying to narrow down, skew, the possible Ne associations that is there for my taking. And, they're trying to decide which "Ne" would be valid/should be presented to me/for me.

    It feels like an infringment on my most basic rights regarding thoughts. Hence, "bad"=manipulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I do love cute little bird poop.
    Thanks for valuing my droppings.

    Comment 2- Amar's case: It's how we flirt. It's a subtle game of seeking dominance, but then letting the dominance be returned. A Te game of give and take, of need/not need but you can help me anyways, if it makes you feel stronger/of I cant really do this but I will try anyways. Totally flies in the face of everything ENTP women typically value in terms of independence. It's a little weird, but a Te thing. It appears to be the language we speak.
    Yeah, I discussed it a bit above, in response to Amar.
    I guess it's because I don't see relationships as a a game of submssion/dominance, or needing to have that aspect, in any way.

    yup this sounds right-See mirror idea below. The biggest reflection always wins.
    :steam: This makes me so angry! And, angry at Fi for such things. And, wary of Fi because of it, because it's not seeking truth but impact.

    Fi extroverts it's emotive response-its exposes pain. It announces to the external world it is in pain. It is a call for help. Recognize this IS THE ONLY WAY another Fi user understands that user 1 needs help. User1's pain triggers a mirrored pain response in user2, that forces user2 to help user1.
    That makes sense, thank you. I guess, my response is, it seems awfully draining to mirror the pain response. Why not tap into your databank of memory: you know what pain is/was like, its debilitating capacity, so now that you see it, you help, given that you have an understanding of what pain is?

    Not necessarily needing to mirror it first. Seems the easier (least energy-taxing) route.

    Rather than rely upon social reciprocation via shared affection/shared resources-Fe, we rely upon well-fuck, for lack of a better term-manipulation of another's internal emotions-Fi, to garner the assistance we need. It is manipulation, but between two Fi users, should really be considered more a form of communication. It's how we share and help each other.

    It may appear selfish but remember we are bound by the same biological effect to mirror another's pain, thus help them later. We kinda take turns I guess.
    I guess my question is, why take such turns in the first place? Why play this game? Why put one person in the position of "weakness"/taking, and the other in a position of "strength"/giving?

    Why not give and take because you can and want to give, and the other decides (independently) that they can and want to, take?

    .....not to play out this dynamic of (to me: energy draining) strength/weakness, dominance/submission [read: manipulation]. And repeat. Ad nauseum.

    I guess, I have a hard time boosting someone's ego, worth, by making myself appear "weak". Or ever wanting that from the other. I can't see it as a "flirt".

    I rather meet them as a challenge, a worthy "opponent", and through that interaction, we give nods: him to certain strength in skills of mine, as I do to his. And we learn. To mimic his skills to patch my weakness. And, him, the same to me.

    And, we realize how better we can challenge an "outsider" given that we've figured out how to "dance", skills pitted against each other, now working in tandem.

    It's like in a "fight", where in the beginning it's clumsy, unpredictable, watching two people go at it, and then, if they do it enough, both giving it their all (their honest worth), soon, the "fight" turns into a dance, and they sway to each other's movement. Because they've learned, respected, and appreciated each other's skills. And, anticipated each other's weakness, and the one with the weakness has learned how to turn it into a strength by watching the other. Without bowing down. Without manipulation.

    One step forward, two step back. Two steps forward, one step back. <- this is what Fi "manipulation" feels like to me, never progressing anywhere.

    Versus

    One step forward, shake me, break me, if you can't, one more step forward I shall move. Onwards. Always. Never "back". <- this is how I see interactions without such "manipulation".

    I have noticed ENTPs in particular respond in withdraw at overt Fi usage. A couple of thoughts?
    Yes, it feels disingenuous to me, as I'm guessing ENTPs Fe would feel to you (but for different reasons).

    1. Perhaps it starts the process of evoking an uncosncious Fi within you. Thus you start down the road of mirroring their emotive state-which I'd imagine feels horrifically invasive and intrusive as well as manipulative. My entp friend says Fi makes her unable to think.
    Yeah, or attempting to to appeal to my "Fi"...which feels manipulative, because you're not appealing to my strengths, my Ne, my Ti, my Fe.

    2. You guys are very sensitive to subtle facial cues and ENFPs are highly expressive and also very sensitive to subtle signs of social withdraw on other';s faces. I emote, you cringe, I emote more not understanding why you cringed, even pursuing you as I still need assistance, then overly emoting. The pair may return to a state of status quo, but it is a guarded one, and each picks up that the other is on guard via subtle observations-the lack of eye contact perhaps, the dry mouth, the lack of overt emoting on the ENFPs part?
    I actually do detest being manipulated, good or bad. Like, someone is suprising me, and, giving this elaborate story, of wanting me to go the movies with them (so the others could decorate my room for when we returned)....of course, it's harmless and "good" manipulation. It's thoughtful on their part. But, it irked me so bad. I guess it's the idea that they even believe I can be manipulated - which irks me so. Ask me, simply, just, ask me (give me this respect, autonomy). To meet you at equal footing.

    3. It may just be that Fi is utterly alien to most entps as you use it so rarely. Sometime I'll show you the goggle eyed picture. It's my ENTP deterrent.
    Heh, now you've got my Ne curious. I wanna see the google eyed picture!

    How to deal with the cryer? I'd use Te to call her on her acting like a child and lacking in accountibility. However my opinion is way, way harsh. I have an ESFP sister.

    A neat thing you see with Fi-the boy who cried wolf effect. If someone uses Fi manipulatively, after awhile we learn to selectively screen that person out of our mirrored data set.
    OMG, yes, what an accurate insight. It often feels like "the boy who cried wolf", with Fi.

    As for what I did with her, I asked her once to calmly discuss, sans the hysterics of tears. She seemed to twist that (for the audience's benefit) that I'm being harsh/mean, and continued to cry louder. So, my attack went into high gear.

    Until she had stopped crying, and was begging me, "Please stop, look I've stopped crying, stop." But, by then, it was too late. I was gonna drag that sucker through the mud, bloodied and bruised. Real tears couldn't help but fall. So she'd learn to never ever fake tears with me again.

    She wanted tears? She would get tears.

    But, I've grown up much since those days. I'm much more patient and considerate now.

  9. #509
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Lots to talk about...

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Fuck work, this is far more interesting. (once you apply compassionate detachment in the workplace, everything just goes downhill)

    Onemortime-a lack of Fe is what allows INTJs to move mountains.

    The can NiTe see every possible outcome, identify all disasters, all potholes, all barriers, mitigate and forge ahead. They cant see anything BUT reality-with every possible flaw, every permutation. And they dont care if anyone likes them. They dont care if you get mad at them. They dont care what anyone thinks of them.
    And for that one in a million, great. For the 999,999 without Fe that crash and burn behind him or her, wallowing in self-pity and contempt towards those who didn't recognize their greatness, well, that's a sad existence.

    Even the most diehard Fe user, cannot deny the brute force and strategic power of NiTe. Combine that with the lack of Fe and not leading with Fi, and they are drivers regardless if anyone likes it.
    You wonder where NeTi gets its impishness from? This here is it. As we've discussed before, we're the ultimate egalitarians. You prove your worth through your usefulness. If you take charge, you better tell us what you're going to do, or we will sabotage your efforts out of personal offense. This isn't merely pettiness, either: we'd rather your plan fail safely than spectacularly, or succeed contrary to our own goals. Negotiation's the key, it's a basic tenet of respect.

    I am cursed with NeFi with a good dose of Te. I can NeTe see the whole fucking system melting down, I can't help but speak up and drive due to Te, yet am then left feeling utterly rejected due to NeFi wanting emotional affirmation. It's like I kick my own ass everyday. Maybe more like putting my own hand in the garbage disposal, yet I just cant quite stop myself. The truth/reality is just too obvious not to directly address.

    ENTPs are very different. You buy into the Fe social fabric. You recreate your own social reality using Fe and play it like an instrument, with exceptional beauty and skill, excluding those who are not suited to the game with knife-like precision. But at some point it, Fe reality and true reality are no longer the same. Fe reality is full of smiles and congratulations and slaps on the back, only affirmation.
    It's simply working the levers, darlin'. Fe reality is reality; that is, it is society. Most xNTPs, as far as I have known, go through a solipsist phase in their life. This ends fairly quickly as the material consequences of one's thoughts are fully understood. The lovely part about this is that the structure begins to make itself manifest - it's power, pure and simple. However, power is a delicate thing, easy to overwhelm and easy to escape. You begin to understand that coercive power is far from insuperable; you've taken your hits in the day, and they're far easier to withstand than you may fear.

    On the other hand, persuasive power changes the world. That when a man is convinced of something, he is even harder to move than a mountain, and no amount of vision or firmness of will can make him budge.

    This is both wondrous and terribly frightening.

    Reality is ugly, painful, full of failures and harsh. It must be addressed.
    You address it by realizing the chains of causation, and then altering them so that the result differs from what is known.

    My very best ENTP man-a senior VP-let me down recently once I saw how he also bought into the Fe social fabric in trade for Ti logic. But, perhaps key to his success-he surrounds himself with INTJs at the next level down. He has five now and turns them loose on nightmarish problems. It's brutal, yet fascinating.

    A question-if an ENTP can recreate a social reality based upon Fe, can they create one in which they are isolated and function like an INTJ, becoming independent of the social fabric?
    Yes and no. Yes in that the hyperfocus is there and one can harness it through seclusion. No in that without someone to share the joy of the results with, it's unlikely that this sort of state would ever be achieved.

    My internal joy comes from being able to share my joy externally. I don't understand why being a "know-it-all" is such a bad thing - I collect information so that I may constantly be useful to others. It may come off as obnoxious because, well, the typical masculine role is an aggressive one.

  10. #510
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    But 'maybe' is a saying used by those who lack the knowledge.
    That sentence denies everything we know about quantum physics.

    Knowledge is indeed powerful. Power is that which we have no will to control. And if knowledge controls and cannot be controlled than knowledge is indeed powerful.
    Does knowledge control? How do you define control?

    Yes, I'll keep doing this all day - because I'm not going to go left or right like a trained monkey. I'll go up, down, forwards, backwards, or maybe a combination of these directions. We say these words, but at their best, they are nothing more than gross approximations. We scale up, and they become so insignificant as to bear nothing upon the greater workings of the universe. We scale downward, and eventually we get to the terrifying point where we realize that everything is essentially nothing.

    And that is why the answer to your question is mu.

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