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  1. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Hint: when talking about their arrogance, unless they go into detail and elaborate why they are so great, pull their serious and constipated face from the pole stuck up their ass, they tend to be joking (though still somewhat believing what they're saying )
    SHE gets it. Particularly the last part.


  2. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's called, "play."
    Haha. Precisely.

  3. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Indeed. But why? Is there a useful point to prove?
    Sorry, not too familiar with you, Ragin K.

    Should your avatar be the Joker scribbling "Why so serious?"

  4. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    This new side of sim is making me feel all fuzzy inside.

    Aww, have you recently fallen in lurrrve man?!?!

    Something's different about you.

    As if some pent up tension has been released.



    Or, perhaps, you are just in a chill mood.
    Not to disavow the possibility that Sim has had some life-changing experience elsewhere, but I would write this "change" down to being confronted (in a non-confrontational way, of course ) by an intelligent INTJ (and in the view of several other N-dom users).

    There's an odd connection between INTJs and ENTPs. I kinda knew Sim and I would eventually have this dialogue.

  5. #475
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's called, "play."
    Sounds... fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Sorry, not too familiar with you, Ragin K.

    Should your avatar be the Joker scribbling "Why so serious?"
    No, not that I'm serious. I just see the comment as a block to the talk you were having with sim and wondered if a point was being proven there.

  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    = you equate intelligence with Ni
    = you overvalue Ni relative to other functions
    = you don't recognize that multiple forms of intelligence exist
    = your perceptions of the intelligence of other types is skewed by your bias toward Ni

    Ironically this sort of unconscious bias as a result of built-in interpretation/taking one particular view of reality too seriously is precisely what Ni strives most to avoid. Poetic, no?
    I think the funniest part about the INTJ-ENTP dynamic is that we understand the ENTP so well, but the ENTP seems to have no idea what makes us tick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    Sounds... fun.

    No, not that I'm serious. I just see the comment as a block to the talk you were having with sim and wondered if a point was being proven there.
    Nope, you're not taking this all too seriously at all...


  8. #478
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    Nice, thread jack stops here.

    I'm going to bed y'all.

    Back to whether ENFPs and INTJs should make babies.

  9. #479
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Reading those two responses above, (1) stood out, (2) irked me. It's obviously something about me, my processing of the info.....but, I thought I'd mention as a difference between ENXP women, perhaps.

    And, happy to hear any reasons of why those would irk me so, as I can't quite put my finger on it.

    It's nothing personal to the posters, just those two posts stuck out. Meh.



    Yes. not always, though
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No worries, it was more of a dropping for Happy Puppy to stumble upon.

    I think it's the inconsistency in expectation of behaviours from all parties involved that irked me in each of those posts. The bias clouding "fairness".

    "Be sensitive to me, or I will get hurt, but, I don't need to extend the same sensitivity to [you], myself." - yours

    "Don't tell me that I am incompetent, because I'll act like a brat, but, in another incident, I will play up my helplessness/incompetency to get you to do the thing for me, so you can re-assert the feeling of rescuing the 'damsel in distress'." - Amar's

    Actually, I do what SS does as well. And yes, it does stem from insecurity. In my case, some scars left by my father and first bf. I learned then and there that relying on anyone else besides myself was able to sink me in such a dark emotional abyss that I vowed never to return there. Mostly, I use what SS did as a very lighthearted joke..but it's also meant to rebuild the tension in our relationship (since we've been together for 10 years, he *knows* I aint going anywhere, and it brings out his possessive side a bit which I enjoy, and he knows I'm doing it for that reason). It's a way for me to...I guess, reassure myself that he's with me not out of convenience, not coz it's familiar, but coz he *wants* to be. It's not meant to be harmful. And although it is something that if I were to do it more seriously, would harm him, he knows me well enough to know what I'm up to and he'll respond to the little game we got going that way (usually ends up in the bed somewhere ).

    As for my own comment, once again emotional baggage. I've been told my entire life I'm incompetent, that my way of doing things is always always wrong. I don't care anymore. If you want me to do something, I will get it done, but don't be telling me how to do it. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate helpful suggestions..but they better be suggestions instead of you barking orders at me. The pouting I do, coz he likes it. Yes, I know, it's weird. But he does. It's comparable to a kitten being stuck in a ball of yarn and looking at you with big eyes 'Help me!'. He finds it utterly adorable and amusing. And yes, I have 'abused' it in the way that you say. But he does that just fine with me too, he has his own tricks to get me to do things
    And I don't always play it either. In fact, I discovered that he likes this coz I naturally get frustrated and pouty when something doesn't wanna work for me. It makes me impatient, moody, especially when it's something silly like me being not tall enough to get something from the cubboard, or some stupid jar that won't open. I feel ridiculous to have that as a problem and it makes me temporarily frustrated, which he finds for some bizarre reason irresistable. So I learned to overdo it just a tad so he'll come helping me before I completely go nuts. We're a team. And when he gets frustrated over something (usually people), I too find it utterly adorable and amusing, and will gladly help him out with it

    The reason you didn't like the comment is probably becoz it reeks of manipulation. I have a permit for it though from him
    And not all manipulation is necessarily bad. He knows he can trust me to use it with care, that I would never purposefully take advantage of him or harm him.

    Quote Originally Posted by FormItype View Post
    Sorry, had been away for a bit. While I have to admit, almost NONE of what anyone has said seems to suggest the likelihood that this is going to work out the way I would have hoped, it's still been really helpful. SillySapien, as I've "listened" to your thoughts, I've been amazed at how much they seem to reflect the ways my friend seems to perceive and react to the world. It does seem that I have to prepare for this. If I "give her space" but she isn't going to change her mind or heart anyway, it's really just postponing the inevitable. If I ask her out (she had asked when we were at the museum on Sunday when I would be back in town [left that afternoon for a business trip]), but she is ambivalent and doesn't want to say yes but doesn't want to say no, then it sort of adds to my confusion. So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.
    From what I've seen, there's still too many options right now for what's going on. She could be completely stressed for time, she could be liking you but have a reason why she's hesitating (emotional baggage, rational concerns, practical issues), etc etc. For me, personally ( I don't do dating coz I'm European), the flirting-process is a way to get to know him, to scout each other and see if we're compatible. She could've discovered something about you that makes you incompatible, or she could just be processing what she's seen so far. External circumstances in her life are unknown, as well as emotional baggage, they all could be exercising their influence on her decision making right now. And that's ok. It's normal to just feel each other out a bit.

    Be your calm self (we love that ), and proceed as you normally would. And see if she follows suit. If not, see what she does and follow her lead. Give it time and space to grow, and give you as well as her the chance to make an informed decision. I doubt anything has been decided so early in the game. I personally take about a month at the very least to get to know a man before I wanna start a relationship with him. And again, that's the minimum. Me and my INTJ got to know each other for a year before we got somewhere (we were very young though). Still...mating dances have their use

    Good luck to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    SHE gets it. Particularly the last part.


    LOL, go to bed already you

    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  10. #480
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No worries, it was more of a dropping for Happy Puppy to stumble upon.

    "Be sensitive to me, or I will get hurt, but, I don't need to extend the same sensitivity to [you], myself." - yours

    "Don't tell me that I am incompetent, because I'll act like a brat, but, in another incident, I will play up my helplessness/incompetency to get you to do the thing for me, so you can re-assert the feeling of rescuing the 'damsel in distress'." - Amar's
    I do love cute little bird poop.

    comment 1-refer to below crying

    Comment 2- Amar's case: It's how we flirt. It's a subtle game of seeking dominance, but then letting the dominance be returned. A Te game of give and take, of need/not need but you can help me anyways, if it makes you feel stronger/of I cant really do this but I will try anyways. Totally flies in the face of everything ENTP women typically value in terms of independence. It's a little weird, but a Te thing. It appears to be the language we speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    It was more an exercise in Fe's reaction to Fi, perhaps? Fairness regardless of who is at the other end. While Fi will say, look at the individual need, and even if it seems biased, extend the courtesy to that which subjectively "needs" it more.

    I remember all my friends/housemates (all Fs) observing a fight between myself and our ESFP roomie, a few years back. She started to cry, and they showed her sympathy. And, I remember getting so frustrated that the one who could "cry" gets the support. Not the argument itself. I remember telling her/them, "Crying doesn't make you right."
    yup this sounds right-See mirror idea below. The biggest reflection always wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Yup.
    To me, that crying was interpreted as manipulation - for me to stop my "attack" on her, and to get coddled by the observers. (I knew her well enough to know some of her 'ways')

    I would have stopped, all she simply had to do was, say, "I've had enough, just stop.".......but the first second I sense someone is trying to manipulate my emotions, somehow, it's not pretty.

    It's the difference between being emotional and using emotionality as a crutch...it's a very fine line, but, it's a line that's there.
    Fi extroverts it's emotive response-its exposes pain. It announces to the external world it is in pain. It is a call for help. Recognize this IS THE ONLY WAY another Fi user understands that user 1 needs help. User1's pain triggers a mirrored pain response in user2, that forces user2 to help user1.

    Rather than rely upon social reciprocation via shared affection/shared resources-Fe, we rely upon well-fuck, for lack of a better term-manipulation of another's internal emotions-Fi, to garner the assistance we need. It is manipulation, but between two Fi users, should really be considered more a form of communication. It's how we share and help each other.

    It may appear selfish but remember we are bound by the same biological effect to mirror another's pain, thus help them later. We kinda take turns I guess.

    I have noticed ENTPs in particular respond in withdraw at overt Fi usage. A couple of thoughts?

    1. Perhaps it starts the process of evoking an uncosncious Fi within you. Thus you start down the road of mirroring their emotive state-which I'd imagine feels horrifically invasive and intrusive as well as manipulative. My entp friend says Fi makes her unable to think.

    2. You guys are very sensitive to subtle facial cues and ENFPs are highly expressive and also very sensitive to subtle signs of social withdraw on other';s faces. I emote, you cringe, I emote more not understanding why you cringed, even pursuing you as I still need assistance, then overly emoting. The pair may return to a state of status quo, but it is a guarded one, and each picks up that the other is on guard via subtle observations-the lack of eye contact perhaps, the dry mouth, the lack of overt emoting on the ENFPs part?

    3. It may just be that Fi is utterly alien to most entps as you use it so rarely. Sometime I'll show you the goggle eyed picture. It's my ENTP deterrent.

    How to deal with the cryer? I'd use Te to call her on her acting like a child and lacking in accountibility. However my opinion is way, way harsh. I have an ESFP sister.

    A neat thing you see with Fi-the boy who cried wolf effect. If someone uses Fi manipulatively, after awhile we learn to selectively screen that person out of our mirrored data set.


    Hmmm, this may be why you see a weird bitchy selfish look to ESFPs sometimes. They emote their own Fi openly, but must shield themselves heavily from the Fi external emoting of others via a Te wall since they cant hide from it due to Se. (Ne can hide in it's head) Some ENFPs do a bit of this, I do this with my family, but it is hard to maintain. worthy of further thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by FormItype View Post
    So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.
    At her age she is using significant Te. She may want to be independent and may need to some time to decide if she really wants you in her space or not. Te wants a leader. Who gets to be the leader?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Have you not noticed that INTJs are just as arrogant as many of the outwardly aggressive (ENTJ, ESTP, ENTP, etc.) types? Many of them have extraordinarily high opinions of themselves, sometimes bordering on narcissism; they just don't usually see a good reason to tell everyone about it.
    As a Te user, I dont sense arrogance, I sense assertive. It's the Fe overlay on an ENTP that conveys arrogance. It makes me question my observations relative to what an Fe user might see. Am I misreading Fe for arrogance as you may misread Te for arrogance?

    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually not true...it's very visible when INTJs are joking...ENTPs on the other hand..
    Fi vs Fe The INFJs can tell when the ENTPs are joking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think the funniest part about the INTJ-ENTP dynamic is that we understand the ENTP so well, but the ENTP seems to have no idea what makes us tick.
    I would strongly disagree. Although I would never allow one to work without the other. INTJs can get stuck in an Ni abyss and ENTPs lack a sense of Te logistics. ENTPs will be overly Ne-optimistic and INTJs can sense the strategic landscape much better with Ni and find the flaws. A beautiful pairing.

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