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  1. #381
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Different needs for different breeds.
    Yup.

    But some needs are unfounded, or deeply selfish, and can therefore be disregarded.
    Yeah, and it's hard to always guage if/how they're unfounded, deeply selfish, if one doesn't have the whole picture, but just a slice.

    Crying certainly DOES NOT make you right, it just means you're emotional, and need a release.

    I've cried when I've been wrong just as much as I've cried when I've been wronged.
    To me, that crying was interpreted as manipulation - for me to stop my "attack" on her, and to get coddled by the observers. (I knew her well enough to know some of her 'ways')

    I would have stopped, all she simply had to do was, say, "I've had enough, just stop.".......but the first second I sense someone is trying to manipulate my emotions, somehow, it's not pretty.

    It's the difference between being emotional and using emotionality as a crutch...it's a very fine line, but, it's a line that's there.

  2. #382
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Z is exactly correct here.In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

    In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)
    If you get let down or hurt enough you will inevitably develop trust issues, I know I have.

    But, I feel you.

    I have a generally good radar for reading people's hearts/intentions, but whenever I detect an incongruency between someone's words and their behavior, I'm not down.

    I think saying, "I don't know how I feel" or, "maybe" are honest answers/responses, it's when someone says they'll do something, or they feel or believe something when in fact they do not, that's when all their credibility gets thrown out the door.

    `
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #383
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    He seemed so hurt/disappointed, already. :/

    And, yes, I know I went all Fi presumptuous and projecting with my feedback, but it strongly rang familiar bells, and I felt the only right thing to do was tell the bloke that an ENFP being terse, less enthusiastic and less playful during the initial stages of a potentially budding relationship is a bad, bad, bad sign.

    Because that is not how we would act, it just isn't. :/

    But, there are exceptions, and, she could not be an ENFP, I forgot to ask how he came to the conclusion that she was.

    Fuck, I'm feeling really guilty/upset now.

    And I think we, no, I scared him off, and potentially with awful advice!!!

    God, I'm a shit head!

    :ouch:
    Well, as much as I'd prefer to say your perception of the situation stands in the way of FormI taking action and should thus be ignored, that would be an error on my part. I think it's a good idea for FormI to take some positive action, but owing to what you perceive too it's worth him getting prepared for some rejection, or maybe some confusing hesitancy on her part and the idea that he may actually cause her some upset by following through further than she wants... BUT, it's bad news for an INTJ to spend too much time pondering negative outcomes. It's worth knowing that something might not work, but there are some contingencies that it's crippling to try and plan for... sometimes one just has to do and hope.

    That balance between emphasizing the negative and trying the positive... sometimes you just gotta have a try.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Z is exactly correct here.

    In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

    In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

    Perhaps the distrust you detect from the INTJs in your life is merited?

    Ha ha. NO. I'm talking about INTJs in general - they seem elusive, vague, and less open than some other types to directly disclose personal information.

    I only had one incident IRL about ten years ago with an INTJ not trusting me, and it was understandable in a sense but not merited in the way this person completely shut down despite my own efforts.

  5. #385
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    He seemed so hurt/disappointed, already. :/

    And, yes, I know I went all Fi presumptuous and projecting with my feedback, but it strongly rang familiar bells, and I felt the only right thing to do was tell the bloke that an ENFP being terse, less enthusiastic and less playful during the initial stages of a potentially budding relationship is a bad, bad, bad sign.

    Because that is not how we would act, it just isn't. :/

    But, there are exceptions, and, she could not be an ENFP, I forgot to ask how he came to the conclusion that she was.

    Fuck, I'm feeling really guilty/upset now.

    And I think we, no, I scared him off, and potentially with awful advice!!!

    God, I'm a shit head!

    :ouch:
    It's ok. My ENFP threw me for so many loops. I was never sure how he truly felt about me, until we had that Fi driven conversation recently and lo and behold he had liked me all this time and was just fighting himself for logical reasons.

    Also, when he was busy on his bazillion and one projects, he would go into his own universe, and it would be an all-about-him thing.

    I dunno...just think she should get the benefit of the doubt. That's why I asked who initiated all those texts and dates. I think if she initiated a lot of them, then there is a possibility she may be interested.

  6. #386
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Ha ha. NO. I'm talking about INTJs in general - they seem elusive, vague, and less open than some other types to directly disclose personal information.
    Yeah, I can understand that impression.

    This comes from our trust being violated in a very different way: we say something that seems, to us, obvious, sensible, logical, reasonable ... and the reaction we get varies from mild confusion and dismissal to sheer outrage that we'd say something so awful. (Remember, we've hardly any Fe ... our statement is Te-reasonable, not necessarily Fe-reasonable. Oh, and the fact that the statement comes from Ni-insight really doesn't help matters, as people struggle to figure out how we reached a conclusion, and often fail.)

    It doesn't come from a lack of desire to trust you, interestingly enough. Remember, we turn into weird and wacky (if somewhat subdued and Te-quirky) companions, not dissimilar to ENFPs, if you actually do get through that barrier.

  7. #387
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    Sorry, had been away for a bit. While I have to admit, almost NONE of what anyone has said seems to suggest the likelihood that this is going to work out the way I would have hoped, it's still been really helpful. SillySapien, as I've "listened" to your thoughts, I've been amazed at how much they seem to reflect the ways my friend seems to perceive and react to the world. It does seem that I have to prepare for this. If I "give her space" but she isn't going to change her mind or heart anyway, it's really just postponing the inevitable. If I ask her out (she had asked when we were at the museum on Sunday when I would be back in town [left that afternoon for a business trip]), but she is ambivalent and doesn't want to say yes but doesn't want to say no, then it sort of adds to my confusion. So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.

  8. #388
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Well, as much as I'd prefer to say your perception of the situation stands in the way of FormI taking action and should thus be ignored, that would be an error on my part. I think it's a good idea for FormI to take some positive action, but owing to what you perceive too it's worth him getting prepared for some rejection, or maybe some confusing hesitancy on her part and the idea that he may actually cause her some upset by following through further than she wants... BUT, it's bad news for an INTJ to spend too much time pondering negative outcomes. It's worth knowing that something might not work, but there are some contingencies that it's crippling to try and plan for... sometimes one just has to do and hope.

    That balance between emphasizing the negative and trying the positive... sometimes you just gotta have a try.
    Ditto. When I decided to open up to ENFP recently...it was a risk, but had I not done it, I would have never known how he truly felt about me, and ultimately I was glad I took the risk.

    He should take a risk, and at this stage of the game, he doesnt have much to lose. I mean, the potential of an ENFP liking an INTJ is pretty high! And if he senses any physical attraction or chemistry that's a huge plus.

  9. #389
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FormItype View Post
    Sorry, had been away for a bit. While I have to admit, almost NONE of what anyone has said seems to suggest the likelihood that this is going to work out the way I would have hoped, it's still been really helpful. SillySapien, as I've "listened" to your thoughts, I've been amazed at how much they seem to reflect the ways my friend seems to perceive and react to the world. It does seem that I have to prepare for this. If I "give her space" but she isn't going to change her mind or heart anyway, it's really just postponing the inevitable. If I ask her out (she had asked when we were at the museum on Sunday when I would be back in town [left that afternoon for a business trip]), but she is ambivalent and doesn't want to say yes but doesn't want to say no, then it sort of adds to my confusion. So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.
    That's really all there is to it. We meet people, maybe make a good connection, maybe not. Maybe the connection endures, maybe not.

    The best bet for an INTJ is to keep on trying and practicing. If she was initially fascinated, but now isn't, that's her problem, not yours. Your only concern is whether there's still a connection. If so, keep on dating and exploring. If not, stop, and find someone else.

    There's a lot of advice on how to make things work out with someone, but it would behoove INTJs to remember that such advice is aimed at people who are already to some degree committed to each other. When the relationship is just starting, there's really no advice other than "get to know the other person better."

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Ditto. When I decided to open up to ENFP recently...it was a risk, but had I not done it, I would have never known how he truly felt about me, and ultimately I was glad I took the risk.

    He should take a risk, and at this stage of the game, he doesnt have much to lose. I mean, the potential of an ENFP liking an INTJ is pretty high! And if he senses any physical attraction or chemistry that's a huge plus.
    We'll see what happens here, TheScientist. There really isn't any doubt that she was genuinely interested and that there was tremendous physical attraction. Even on Sunday (yes, two days ago...) it was there. It's all very puzzling to me (as it seems things were with your ENFP). I hope that she'll at least tell me her feelings have changed, even if she doesn't tell me why. She really is a remarkable woman.

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