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  1. #371
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Hmm, I don't know why it irked you.

    And, I don't know what to say?!?!

    :confused:
    No worries, it was more of a dropping for Happy Puppy to stumble upon.

    I think it's the inconsistency in expectation of behaviours from all parties involved that irked me in each of those posts. The bias clouding "fairness".

    "Be sensitive to me, or I will get hurt, but, I don't need to extend the same sensitivity to [you], myself." - yours

    "Don't tell me that I am incompetent, because I'll act like a brat, but, in another incident, I will play up my helplessness/incompetency to get you to do the thing for me, so you can re-assert the feeling of rescuing the 'damsel in distress'." - Amar's

  2. #372
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Fuck, I'm feeling guilty and presumptuous, all of the sudden.

    Take Kalach's advice.

    You really don't have much to lose, so might as well go out guns a blazin'!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #373
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    :
    I think it's the inconsistency in expectation of behaviours from all parties involved that irked me in each of those posts. The bias clouding "fairness".

    "Be sensitive to me, or I will get hurt, but, I don't need to extend the same sensitivity to [you], myself." - yours
    I have issues with men that I have been battling my whole life.

    Not an excuse, just an explanation.

    I could explain to you, in detail, the psychology behind my issues with men, your typical, my-dad-was-an-abusive-shithead-sob-story, but I'll spare you and me the drama.

    I treat people like I want to be treated, with a caveat, I am hyper-sensitive with guys I'm in relationships with, and this hyper-sensitivity can lead to hyper-reactivity on my part.

    I just don't expect guys to be nearly as hyper-sensitive as I am.

    Plus some other shit, but yeah.



    Sorry, I rubbed you the wrong way.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This isn't just about ENFPs being scattered ENFPs. This is also about INTJs being less than trusting by their own right.
    Isn't it good/smart to be less-than-trusting, and bad to be less-than-trustable?

    (the former being a positive value in all cases except when it comes at the expense of not trusting someone who is indeed worthy of being trusted, and the latter only achieving exception from being a negative value when it comes as a necessary corollary to some other positive value that somehow manages to outweigh its negativity? [in the case of ENFPs, the positive value being that of personability/enjoyability?])

    And even then, wouldn't it still be greatly preferred for the ENFP to maintain the same degree of personability/enjoyability while ALSO being completely and totally trustable.

    That combination might be enough to completely short circuit an INTJ's brain with lurrrve connection...

  5. #375
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    And FormItype, just ask her what she wants to do, and do the asking in the context of some positive proposal, like a date you thought would be good, or something simple that your intuition says would be pleasant. She's welcome to say no, isn't she? And you're okay with her choosing for herself, right? So whatever the hell happens, you get your chance to express something you care about and move on.

    It's aggressive and assertive and invades someone's space, but you've already taken responsibility for that and you choose some action that does not harm, an action that is consultative. And, sorry for the hysteria. I'm having an F moment.
    Im going to have to agree with Kalach on this one. I think he should take some initiative and ask her out. Then he'll have an idea where he stands based on her response.

  6. #376
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I have issues with men that I have been battling my whole life.

    Not an excuse, just an explanation.

    I could explain to you, in detail, the psychology behind my issues with men, your typical, my-dad-was-an-abusive-shithead-sob-story, but I'll spare you and me the drama.

    I treat people like I want to be treated, with a caveat, I am hyper-sensitive with guys I'm in relationships with, and this hyper-sensitivity can lead to hyper-reactivity on my part.

    I just don't expect guys to be nearly as hyper-sensitive as I am.

    Plus some other shit, but yeah.



    Sorry, I rubbed you the wrong way.
    That post is hardly a summation of you, so, believe me, you didn't rub me the wrong way. A sentiment within that post did. As well, I can hardly know you, so there's that limited info too.

    Thanks but no need to apologize. I most certainly am not living your life for you, and don't know the half of it, and neither am I your SO...so...you don't owe me an apology.

    It was more an exercise in Fe's reaction to Fi, perhaps? Fairness regardless of who is at the other end. While Fi will say, look at the individual need, and even if it seems biased, extend the courtesy to that which subjectively "needs" it more.

    I have a hard time reconciling the latter train of thought within myself.

    I remember all my friends/housemates (all Fs) observing a fight between myself and our ESFP roomie, a few years back. She started to cry, and they showed her sympathy. And, I remember getting so frustrated that the one who could "cry" gets the support. Not the argument itself. I remember telling her/them, "Crying doesn't make you right."

  7. #377
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Im going to have to agree with Kalach on this one. I think he should take some initiative and ask her out. Then he'll have an idea where he stands based on her response.
    He seemed so hurt/disappointed, already. :/

    And, yes, I know I went all Fi presumptuous and projecting with my feedback, but it strongly rang familiar bells, and I felt the only right thing to do was tell the bloke that an ENFP being terse, less enthusiastic and less playful during the initial stages of a potentially budding relationship is a bad, bad, bad sign.

    Because that is not how we would act, it just isn't. :/

    But, there are exceptions, and, she could not be an ENFP, I forgot to ask how he came to the conclusion that she was.

    Fuck, I'm feeling really guilty/upset now.

    And I think we, no, I scared him off, and potentially with awful advice!!!

    God, I'm a shit head!

    :ouch:
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #378
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This isn't just about ENFPs being scattered ENFPs. This is also about INTJs being less than trusting by their own right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Isn't it good/smart to be less-than-trusting, and bad to be less-than-trustable?

    (the former being a positive value in all cases except when it comes at the expense of not trusting someone who is indeed worthy of being trusted, and the latter only achieving exception from being a negative value when it comes as a necessary corollary to some other positive value that somehow manages to outweigh its negativity? [in the case of ENFPs, the positive value being that of personability/enjoyability?])

    And even then, wouldn't it still be greatly preferred for the ENFP to maintain the same degree of personability/enjoyability while ALSO being completely and totally trustable.

    That combination might be enough to completely short circuit an INTJ's brain with lurrrve connection...
    Z is exactly correct here.

    In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

    In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

    Perhaps the distrust you detect from the INTJs in your life is merited?

  9. #379
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    It was more an exercise in Fe's reaction to Fi, perhaps? Fairness regardless of who is at the other end. While Fi will say, look at the individual need, and even if it seems biased, extend the courtesy to that which subjectively "needs" it more.
    Different needs for different breeds.

    But some needs are unfounded, or deeply selfish, and can therefore be disregarded.


    "Crying doesn't make you right."
    Crying certainly DOES NOT make you right, it just means you're emotional, and need a release.

    I've cried when I've been wrong just as much as I've cried when I've been wronged.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #380
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)
    I would add to your post that the above is true, regardless of how trusting or distrustful we are.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

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