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  1. #271
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Introverted intuition, the past and introverted sensing.

    It seems strange to say Ni is about the past. But is it? Is it more akin to Si than I previously thought? I have wondered if that terrible man, State, is not right.

    Ni does draw on the past. How? Why? I dunno. But it does. I observe this in myself for example by observing that with all this theorising on typological relationships, I almost never make speculations about types I have little experience with.

    But introverted intuition is not bound to the past. It seeks to be free of the past. There is no substantial comfort to be found in repetition, for example. Indeed, repetition is oftentimes substantially distasteful. So, Ni is hungry for novelty, perhaps as hungry as Ne. But not in the same way. Ni is certainly not in-the-moment. So what novelty does it seek?

    Observe a fault people find with INTJs sometimes, that we frequently will, without recognising it, shift perspective on some issue and claim to have been right all along. That is the novelty Ni seeks, novelty of perspective. The new aspect or nuance or connection in the old issue. The depth of connection to other forms. Ni seeks that novelty. It seeks that freedom.

    Thus, observe, Ni-speak looks like Si-speak, it looks like the statement of a worldview that lays down the law, the rules on what is and is not. But this misses an aspect of Ni, that introverted intuition draws on what was and what is and then seeks to be free of it.

    ^ and that's an example right there of introverted intuition seeking to be free. What was, what is, is discussed, and then a new perspective is generated to change the rules and provide freedom.

    What freedom? The freedom to believe that this whole thread has NOT been just an explanation of why some relationship cannot work.
    we want to get out of the past bc we are still future projected, we focus on what patterns say about possibility and potential and range of interpretation, contextual relevancy, etc. everything is always in motion, recombining, evolving, feedbacking, learning, we can't help but look at the world this way. and as e5 types we're hungry for learning, new knowledge, new understanding and transparency and perspective that will help us more perfectly gravitate towards the center of whatever it is we want to know, feeling it all and drawing all relevant context to that center in as perfect balance as can be found.

    Ni is about scaling well, depth perception (in a temporal way too), and most of all conceptual or metaphoric BLENDING.

    information in itself is new, or it is untenable and invisible and not information. it is not different, therefore it says nothing. always more difference, which gives more perspective and prospective relationships to absorb.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think you may be attributing much to Ni that isn't properly part of Ni.

    There is indeed a similarity between Si and Ni. Si remembers facts and details. Ni remembers patterns and relationships, absent details. The reason, I believe, that Ni seems spooky, even to ourselves, is that we're remembering patterns that we don't recall remembering: the patterns we remember often have no associated details with which to ground them. The patterns are thus not "bound by" the past, and are applied, sometimes quite inappropriately, to similar patterns in our present.

    However, I would not ascribe the emotional content, e.g., a desire for freedom and novelty, to Ni, per se. I can see the connection, but I would describe it more as a tendency, not a "hunger." Ni happens to find its most useful applications by taking lessons learned in one context and applying them to another context, seemingly unrelated. Even if its analysis is completely wrong, the very different perspective often provides insights no one else has. As an INTJ in particular, one will immediately notice that one's intuition is totally off base, use Te to compare and evaluate, and then build a completely new intuitive (Ni) picture that is amazingly complete and accurate. The new intuitive perspective is applied going forward.

    The more experiences we have, the more we use our Ni, the greater the library of patterns stored up in Ni, and the more insightful our intuition. Thus it is like Si, because it is memory, it is prior experience, it is from our past.
    i do think enneagram type plays a huge role in determining how you find value and satisfaction, and largely piggybacks off of your cognitive functions. all the N doms i seriously like are those who just kinda get off on being more N than you, the Biggest Leap game, you can tell right away when someone pulls a rabbit out of a hat and it's immensely satisfying. i get this very strongly with 5s and 7s, it's just a game unto itself.

    i agree very heartedly that the abstractedness of Ni is crucial to understand the difference between Ni and Si. there is some kind of strangely weird essentialism that is built into Ni, everything is immediately conceptual bc we are aware of the streets as patterns upon which everything is built. everything is contextualized and decontextualized and recontextualized so endlessly, that the world is always a blended brew and when it feels great its because we have the perfect balance of notes and can smell each of them. we know we hit he mark and everything is in tune and the overall perspective is made up of thousands of tiny and delicious and fragrant little ones. blah blah microcosmic, etc.

  2. #272
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Sorry for the delayed reply, but it was time to go dance ...

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    "Why not a whole burrito?"

    :steam:

    Now, that would have been presumptuous, no?
    I used too many words: you miss my point entirely.

    It isn't about how picky INTJs are.

    Rather, it's that you put the focus on the burrito. He analyzed the burrito, not you. It hurt you because the burrito was a proxy for you, in your eyes. To reject the burrito was to reject you. Even if he really liked the burrito, it wouldn't have been about you, at the time. Sometimes a burrito is just a burrito.

    When you put the focus on you, his thoughts won't be on a burrito or anything else. At that point, he'll be thinking, "I love this woman."

    You might want to look into the 5 Love Languages, though I'd be surprised if you hadn't, already. Unless gift giving/receiving is one of his love languages, most gifts will fall flat.


    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I think he could tell I was joking, but as you perceptively noticed/accurately surmised, I think all he really did hear was a threat that I could leave him if I wanted to, which, even though, technically I could, (anybody can leave a relationship if they wanted to), I soooooooo wouldn't, and didn't want to, and in essence, because of how much I love him, couldn't leave him, why?
    Oh, he could tell that you were being merry about it, but that's not the same thing as knowing that you were just teasing. It was hitting a sore spot precisely because it was extremely close to contradicting his internalized truth: that he loves you and you love him. Don't contradict that. Implying that you don't love him is off limits, for now. (Maybe later? Not sure ... but I think it would still hurt me even if I knew for sure it were teasing.)


    Also, may you please elaborate more on the whole "express your feelings as fact mode"

    Feelings are fleeting, they are highly circumstantially derived, i.e. time, a sequence of events, lack of sleep, hormones, etc., these all affect feelings.

    Feelings are subjective transient truths, not hardcore Facts, y'know?

    Right?

    :/
    I know what you're getting at. By that I mean, oddly enough, express your feelings as if you were INTJ. Both ENFP and INTJ have Te and Fi. He expresses himself and listens mostly in Te, while you use Ne to be expressive and listen while Fi processes behind the scenes. So while he'll usually understand you when you're emotional, sometimes he just seems totally off, right? When he's off, that's because he's been spoofed: something has him hearing you in logical Te terms, and not feeling terms.

    At that point, the easiest course for you is to "go all Te" on him. Even as ephemeral as feelings are, you can tell him in a calm voice, "Please don't go 'eww' at my half burrito. I was trying to make you happy, and you're hurting my feelings by rejecting it." I strongly suspect that where you talked about it later, you did exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    I thought men, or more specifically INTJ men were not supposed to be so sensitive, perhaps this is a misconception.

    In fact, the more I think about it, as rational as you guys are, there is a distinct sensitivity to you, it's a unique kind of sensitivity, repressed a bit, defensive, but there, definitely there.

    It is like you guys have this constant right-wrong sensor that scans all input, which then processes whether or not it is worthy of further investigation, and if it is, you formulate the whys behind the "wrong(s)", then, and only then, do you emote/express/explain what happened.
    Yes, we're very sensitive. When I give advice to F-types, my main point has always been "be gentle with an INTJ's feelings." The reason we're resilient is that we use reason/logic/Te to keep our feelings/Fi safe from harm. It's very effective, but has side effects. One of those side effects is that when we let you through, when we trust you that much, you can hurt us very, very easily. It doesn't take much. We're very childlike in this mode; the adult part of us has moved off to one side so we can play.

    Remember, even as much as you admire his super-logic when it's aimed at anything or anyone but you, when he's with you, you want to see his emotional side, right? Just as much as you need reassurance that he loves you, he REALLY needs reassurance from you that you love him, and the absolute best way of showing that is that you don't hurt him when he is emotionally open with you.

    If you playfully prick at his feelings, you can inadvertently teach him to hide his feelings from you.
    To be clear, you don't need to walk on eggshells, but sometimes if something comes out a bit too harsh, be prepared to be extra gentle and reassuring.

  3. #273
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    Jesus f'ing Christ. I thought we solved this all last night? You were bothered by me bringing up your car accident on the forum, and now you go and air our relationship laundry on it? Seriously? (tone: not really bothered, but somewhat exasperated [primarily due to the fact that now I'll either have to acquiesce in silence or multi-quote like a bitch in order to properly respond]).

    Decision pending...

  4. #274
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    OK, decision made.

    Starting with re-explanation of the story.

    Then possibly multi-quoting like a bitch afterward.

  5. #275
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ we get it, dude. Don't worry.

    An ENFP once cooked me soup. I learned about this when she called up and said, I cooked you soup, can I come over? And I said, ummmm.... , and was trying to work out if I could get away with saying no. (And this doesn't even come near the time I refused to let people into my apartment and later got a telephone call explaining that what they had had with them was birthday cake and flowers.)

    Surprise stuff that doesn't fit the program but has to be endured because it carries some emotional freight... totally want to say no and make it clear to every damn person that the emotional freight can and should be separated from the physical object.

    (And it has roots in Si vs Se, pardners, wait and see.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #276
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    This thread just gets better and better.


  7. #277
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Doesn't it draw from the collective unconsciousness?
    That would explain the similarities between Si and Ni.
    I'd prefer to say the person draws on his past experience to create the universal unconsciousness. If the person lives long enough, their Ni becomes (identifiable with) the universal unconsciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think you may be attributing much to Ni that isn't properly part of Ni.

    There is indeed a similarity between Si and Ni. Si remembers facts and details. Ni remembers patterns and relationships, absent details. The reason, I believe, that Ni seems spooky, even to ourselves, is that we're remembering patterns that we don't recall remembering: the patterns we remember often have no associated details with which to ground them. The patterns are thus not "bound by" the past, and are applied, sometimes quite inappropriately, to similar patterns in our present.

    However, I would not ascribe the emotional content, e.g., a desire for freedom and novelty, to Ni, per se. I can see the connection, but I would describe it more as a tendency, not a "hunger." Ni happens to find its most useful applications by taking lessons learned in one context and applying them to another context, seemingly unrelated. Even if its analysis is completely wrong, the very different perspective often provides insights no one else has. As an INTJ in particular, one will immediately notice that one's intuition is totally off base, use Te to compare and evaluate, and then build a completely new intuitive (Ni) picture that is amazingly complete and accurate. The new intuitive perspective is applied going forward.

    The more experiences we have, the more we use our Ni, the greater the library of patterns stored up in Ni, and the more insightful our intuition. Thus it is like Si, because it is memory, it is prior experience, it is from our past.
    I agree with what you say, particularly with the idea of remembering patterns without remembering details. (Actually, I'd probably say it's necessary to eschew details to get to the patterns.)

    And the idea behind the words "seek" and "hunger" was perhaps too anthropomorphic. But perhaps excusable. The person will seek and have the hunger, but as a function of Ni functioning, so what's a good set of words for introverted intuition... um, seeking... no, needing... no, um, being about... yeah, "being about" new perspectives?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #278
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Sorry, waaaaay too early for me to decode Kalach's post, but for all of y'all who are interested in hearing, hahaha, no, reading, a REAL LIFE example, not necessarily demonstrative of an ENFP/INTJ=Disasterous combo, but one that shows how things may go shaky at times due to our type differences, (and don't worry, this example has a happy ending )....


    Your story is beyond rainbow-barf adorable.

    ENFP coworker and I had a passionate discussion the other day where I spewed out all of my frustrations about my distrust in him and straight out told him that I LIKED HIM in a very INTJ resistant/anxious/embarrassed manner. That Fi was finally set free after being suppressed for so long. And when he said I just overthink things too much I responded, "Of course I do! But I'm sure this stuff doesnt even cross your mind!" At that point he became visibly frustrated with my accusation and he was FINALLY VULNERABLE and he slowly turned his face to me....his whole demeanor changed...and with the most serious and sincere face EVER he said to me: "YES...I HAVE. I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT YOU as much as YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT ME, OKAY?"......my jaw almost dropped to the floor...And with a slightly puzzled and shocked face, all I could mumble in response was...."you have...??" "YES...I HAVE."

    I almost died. All this time I thought he didnt CARE. BUT HE DID and DOES! He just knew it wouldnt work out in the long run (difference in values/religion). He was fighting himself away from me the whoooole time. That's why I was getting the hot/cold. It was so disorienting and confusing...This was the most open and honest we've been with each other...and it felt SO damn good.

    I heart my ENFP now more than ever...even if we can only be friends

    How ironic...ENFP was being the rational one about it all. And I've been the most irrational INTJ since having met him.

    ENFP + INTJ....the connection is....sigh...... perfection. I highly recommend it

    I hope I can find another one as adorable and charming and hot as him

  9. #279
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    To which he replied, errrrr, and reacted with a look, along with a look of disdain/distate.

    Something about this reaction immediately plummeted my feelings, I thought, why couldn't he just say, "oh, thanks babe, I don't really feel like that, right now", or " I'm not in the mood for Mexican", to which I would've replied with, "cool, cool, maybe I or you will have it later" and then I would have gone on with my happy-go-lucky self.
    My favorite IRL INTJ-isms:
    "If you would work a little harder, you might have finished your PhD" from my best friend INTJ in grad school.

    "They are just lazy" "You are right, some people just dont work hard enough" two work INTJs going to lunch with me and my ENTP for the first time. We snickered.

    "If your going to be dumb, you'd better be tough" My ex father in law says this a lot accompanied by a gruff pat on the head. Telling you that are a bit slow is how he signals affection.

    These folks seem to have exceptionally high standards and they just plop judgment of the object out there with very little softening. I'd suggest separating yourself from your burrito. Then dont be suprised if you end up the object of judgment at some point. What helps to understand is that they dont seem to mean to hurt others, so it makes it very easy to forgive them. Meh, an intj-ism.

    My response to my grad school INTJ was three seconds of shock, then hysterical laughter then "I will never meet your standards because nobody will meet your standards" then I just laughed, then she laughed. She also told me "you never finished anything" which prompted construction of seven lighted up christmas lawn sculptures. I finished them just to show her I finish things. While the shiva sculpture was quite impressive, the rest were somewhat lacking...

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    INTJ-hole!
    Is there an icon for this? Perhaps you can suggest it to the mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Ni is about scaling well, depth perception (in a temporal way too), and most of all conceptual or metaphoric BLENDING.
    State it takes me a day to process your Ni content. I promise I will read and think more through this info, but this particular phrase caught my eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Jesus f'ing Christ. I thought we solved this all last night? You were bothered by me bringing up your car accident on the forum, and now you go and air our relationship laundry on it? Seriously? (tone: not really bothered, but somewhat exasperated [primarily due to the fact that now I'll either have to acquiesce in silence or multi-quote like a bitch in order to properly respond]).

    Decision pending...
    Sorry, you have become a part of the INTJ/ENFP data collection set. There is no escape.

    Plus, you guys are soooooo cuuuute!!!!

    SS and Z-A question:

    SS when you are trying to do some serious task do you ever find Z shows up and takes over? Even when you dont need his help?

    I have noticed this with my toddler-a wee INTJ. (Just trust me, I know these things, I dont want to argue about if you can type wee ones and so on.) I mesh with the little tyke far better than with my 14 yo ENFP. We are yin and yang and I can read exactly what he needs by his eyes and facial expressions.

    Outside of normal two year stuff he does this thing though-
    I will be completing a task. He comes in and inserts himself totally into my personal space and physically pushes me out of the way, then completes the task himself.

    I dont mind letting him learn new things or even making an utter disaster in the process (see the fridge pic in my photo album), but the physical pushing really annoys me. I think it's like a bit of Te-Te assertion at play.

    I see this in older INTJs when they step in and take over tasks as they assume the rest of the world will not be competent enough to complete said tasks. 95% of the time I dont mind, but I could see that last 5% being a fight.

    How does it work out when an ENFP is trying to use Te in a dominant fashion to resolve a task, but the INTJ steps in tries to take over?

  10. #280
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Surprise stuff that doesn't fit the program but has to be endured because it carries some emotional freight... totally want to say no and make it clear to every damn person that the emotional freight can and should be separated from the physical object.

    (And it has roots in Si vs Se, pardners, wait and see.)
    Oh, this is funny as I believe I posted on another thread-you can go find a rock in the gutter and give it to me as a gift and say "It reminded me of your eyes". I will treasure that rock forever....(or until Te kicks in and goes where the hell did this drawer full of rocks come from?)

    On this same line of thought I have all the old junk in my family. Includes an old cabinet cut out of a farmhouse built around 1850. My mom and grandmom-enfps carried the crap with them. Then my sister-an esfp-threw it all in a leaky shed and bought furniture at wal-mart.

    I "rescued" (jeez, look at the emo contained within that one word) the junk.

    One item is a big jar of marbles-hundreds of them. WTF am I going to do with marbles? Well, the toddler plays with them (he doesnt ever put them in his mouth). Every week I sweep up about 15 marbles and chunk them in the trash.

    So I have balanced out the weird emo need to keep the marbles out of nostaligia (damned INTJs) with knowing that my grandmom would have loved having the little one play with the marbles and enjoyed his happiness.

    So-
    I have developed an emo attachment to old marbles AND I am trying to maximize my dead grandmother's happiness.

    No wonder the ENTPs think we are FUCKING crazy.

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