[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Qre:us]

Different needs for different breeds.

Yup.

But some needs are unfounded, or deeply selfish, and can therefore be disregarded.

Yeah, and it's hard to always guage if/how they're unfounded, deeply selfish, if one doesn't have the whole picture, but just a slice.

Crying certainly DOES NOT make you right, it just means you're emotional, and need a release.

I've cried when I've been wrong just as much as I've cried when I've been wronged.

To me, that crying was interpreted as manipulation - for me to stop my "attack" on her, and to get coddled by the observers. (I knew her well enough to know some of her 'ways')

I would have stopped, all she simply had to do was, say, "I've had enough, just stop.".......but the first second I sense someone is trying to manipulate my emotions, somehow, it's not pretty.

It's the difference between being emotional and using emotionality as a crutch...it's a very fine line, but, it's a line that's there.

 

[SillySapienne]

Z is exactly correct here.In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

If you get let down or hurt enough you will inevitably develop trust issues, I know I have.

But, I feel you.

I have a generally good radar for reading people's hearts/intentions, but whenever I detect an incongruency between someone's words and their behavior, I'm not down.

I think saying, "I don't know how I feel" or, "maybe" are honest answers/responses, it's when someone says they'll do something, or they feel or believe something when in fact they do not, that's when all their credibility gets thrown out the door.

 

[Kalach]

He seemed so hurt/disappointed, already. :/

And, yes, I know I went all Fi presumptuous and projecting with my feedback, but it strongly rang familiar bells, and I felt the only right thing to do was tell the bloke that an ENFP being terse, less enthusiastic and less playful during the initial stages of a potentially budding relationship is a bad, bad, bad sign.

Because that is not how we would act, it just isn't. :/

But, there are exceptions, and, she could not be an ENFP, I forgot to ask how he came to the conclusion that she was.

Fuck, I'm feeling really guilty/upset now.

And I think we, no, I scared him off, and potentially with awful advice!!!

God, I'm a shit head!

uch:

Well, as much as I'd prefer to say your perception of the situation stands in the way of FormI taking action and should thus be ignored, that would be an error on my part. I think it's a good idea for FormI to take some positive action, but owing to what you perceive too it's worth him getting prepared for some rejection, or maybe some confusing hesitancy on her part and the idea that he may actually cause her some upset by following through further than she wants... BUT, it's bad news for an INTJ to spend too much time pondering negative outcomes. It's worth knowing that something might not work, but there are some contingencies that it's crippling to try and plan for... sometimes one just has to do and hope.

That balance between emphasizing the negative and trying the positive... sometimes you just gotta have a try.

 

[Thalassa]

Z is exactly correct here.

In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

Perhaps the distrust you detect from the INTJs in your life is merited?

Ha ha. NO. I'm talking about INTJs in general - they seem elusive, vague, and less open than some other types to directly disclose personal information.

I only had one incident IRL about ten years ago with an INTJ not trusting me, and it was understandable in a sense but not merited in the way this person completely shut down despite my own efforts.

 

[thescientist]

He seemed so hurt/disappointed, already. :/

And, yes, I know I went all Fi presumptuous and projecting with my feedback, but it strongly rang familiar bells, and I felt the only right thing to do was tell the bloke that an ENFP being terse, less enthusiastic and less playful during the initial stages of a potentially budding relationship is a bad, bad, bad sign.

Because that is not how we would act, it just isn't. :/

But, there are exceptions, and, she could not be an ENFP, I forgot to ask how he came to the conclusion that she was.

Fuck, I'm feeling really guilty/upset now.

And I think we, no, I scared him off, and potentially with awful advice!!!

God, I'm a shit head!

uch:

It's ok. My ENFP threw me for so many loops. I was never sure how he truly felt about me, until we had that Fi driven conversation recently and lo and behold he had liked me all this time and was just fighting himself for logical reasons.

Also, when he was busy on his bazillion and one projects, he would go into his own universe, and it would be an all-about-him thing.

I dunno...just think she should get the benefit of the doubt. That's why I asked who initiated all those texts and dates. I think if she initiated a lot of them, then there is a possibility she may be interested.

 

[uumlau]

Ha ha. NO. I'm talking about INTJs in general - they seem elusive, vague, and less open than some other types to directly disclose personal information.

Yeah, I can understand that impression.

This comes from our trust being violated in a very different way: we say something that seems, to us, obvious, sensible, logical, reasonable ... and the reaction we get varies from mild confusion and dismissal to sheer outrage that we'd say something so awful. (Remember, we've hardly any Fe ... our statement is Te-reasonable, not necessarily Fe-reasonable. Oh, and the fact that the statement comes from Ni-insight really doesn't help matters, as people struggle to figure out how we reached a conclusion, and often fail.)

It doesn't come from a lack of desire to trust you, interestingly enough. Remember, we turn into weird and wacky (if somewhat subdued and Te-quirky) companions, not dissimilar to ENFPs, if you actually do get through that barrier.

 

[FormItype]

Sorry, had been away for a bit. While I have to admit, almost NONE of what anyone has said seems to suggest the likelihood that this is going to work out the way I would have hoped, it's still been really helpful. SillySapien, as I've "listened" to your thoughts, I've been amazed at how much they seem to reflect the ways my friend seems to perceive and react to the world. It does seem that I have to prepare for this. If I "give her space" but she isn't going to change her mind or heart anyway, it's really just postponing the inevitable. If I ask her out (she had asked when we were at the museum on Sunday when I would be back in town [left that afternoon for a business trip]), but she is ambivalent and doesn't want to say yes but doesn't want to say no, then it sort of adds to my confusion. So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.

 

[thescientist]

Well, as much as I'd prefer to say your perception of the situation stands in the way of FormI taking action and should thus be ignored, that would be an error on my part. I think it's a good idea for FormI to take some positive action, but owing to what you perceive too it's worth him getting prepared for some rejection, or maybe some confusing hesitancy on her part and the idea that he may actually cause her some upset by following through further than she wants... BUT, it's bad news for an INTJ to spend too much time pondering negative outcomes. It's worth knowing that something might not work, but there are some contingencies that it's crippling to try and plan for... sometimes one just has to do and hope.

That balance between emphasizing the negative and trying the positive... sometimes you just gotta have a try.

Ditto. When I decided to open up to ENFP recently...it was a risk, but had I not done it, I would have never known how he truly felt about me, and ultimately I was glad I took the risk.

He should take a risk, and at this stage of the game, he doesnt have much to lose. I mean, the potential of an ENFP liking an INTJ is pretty high! And if he senses any physical attraction or chemistry that's a huge plus.

 

[uumlau]

Sorry, had been away for a bit. While I have to admit, almost NONE of what anyone has said seems to suggest the likelihood that this is going to work out the way I would have hoped, it's still been really helpful. SillySapien, as I've "listened" to your thoughts, I've been amazed at how much they seem to reflect the ways my friend seems to perceive and react to the world. It does seem that I have to prepare for this. If I "give her space" but she isn't going to change her mind or heart anyway, it's really just postponing the inevitable. If I ask her out (she had asked when we were at the museum on Sunday when I would be back in town [left that afternoon for a business trip]), but she is ambivalent and doesn't want to say yes but doesn't want to say no, then it sort of adds to my confusion. So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.

That's really all there is to it. We meet people, maybe make a good connection, maybe not. Maybe the connection endures, maybe not.

The best bet for an INTJ is to keep on trying and practicing. If she was initially fascinated, but now isn't, that's her problem, not yours. Your only concern is whether there's still a connection. If so, keep on dating and exploring. If not, stop, and find someone else.

There's a lot of advice on how to make things work out with someone, but it would behoove INTJs to remember that such advice is aimed at people who are already to some degree committed to each other. When the relationship is just starting, there's really no advice other than "get to know the other person better."

 

[FormItype]

Ditto. When I decided to open up to ENFP recently...it was a risk, but had I not done it, I would have never known how he truly felt about me, and ultimately I was glad I took the risk.

He should take a risk, and at this stage of the game, he doesnt have much to lose. I mean, the potential of an ENFP liking an INTJ is pretty high! And if he senses any physical attraction or chemistry that's a huge plus.

We'll see what happens here, TheScientist. There really isn't any doubt that she was genuinely interested and that there was tremendous physical attraction. Even on Sunday (yes, two days ago...) it was there. It's all very puzzling to me (as it seems things were with your ENFP). I hope that she'll at least tell me her feelings have changed, even if she doesn't tell me why. She really is a remarkable woman.

 

[Zarathustra]

I have issues with men that I have been battling my whole life.

Not an excuse, just an explanation.

I could explain to you, in detail, the psychology behind my issues with men, your typical, my-dad-was-an-abusive-shithead-sob-story, but I'll spare you and me the drama.

I treat people like I want to be treated, with a caveat, I am hyper-sensitive with guys I'm in relationships with, and this hyper-sensitivity can lead to hyper-reactivity on my part.

I just don't expect guys to be nearly as hyper-sensitive as I am.

Plus some other shit, but yeah.



Sorry, I rubbed you the wrong way.

Thank you, Qre:US. Finally someone sees it my way. I guess there has been some kind of validation for having it posted for all to see.

That being said, considering I never got to tell my side of the story, chew on this untold nugget:

Although she admits to being hypersensitive herself, she somehow thinks it's cool to "tease" me about having the ability to leave me and go back to her ex-boyfriend (who's been sending her emails begging her to leave me and get back with him) or having the ability to fuck one of my best friends (who she's admitted being attracted to).

Oh, and the most interesting missing part from her recap: she prefaced her I-could-find-a-shiny-new-boyfriend "joke" by saying that, having been through the experience of watching her father die of cancer, she's extremely capable of accepting difficult losses, and would thus be fine if our relationship were to come to an end...

Real funny joke, eh?

 

[SillySapienne]

Yeah, and it's hard to always guage if/how they're unfounded, deeply selfish, if one doesn't have the whole picture, but just a slice.

A sliver of a picture, I think I often err in seeing a picture in a sliver, if that makes sense. :/

To me, that crying was interpreted as manipulation - for me to stop my "attack" on her, and to get coddled by the observers. (I knew her well enough to know some of her 'ways')

I would have stopped, all she simply had to do was, say, "I've had enough, just stop.".......but the first second I sense someone is trying to manipulate my emotions, somehow, it's not pretty.

It's the difference between being emotional and using emotionality as a crutch...it's a very fine line, but, it's a line that's there.

The mere thought of emotional manipulation infuriates and disgusts me.

People who engage in this kind of behavior should be euthanized.

 

[Zarathustra]

Note:

My post above was talked about thoroughly between SS and myself before I posted it, and, after a long fruitful discussion, we both agreed that, despite the fact that I am basically calling her out for mischaracterizing (whether unintentionally or not) the nature of her "joke" to herself and to all of you, it would still be fruitful and beneficial to the spirit of the thread -- considering how she and I handle our relationship certainly pertains to whether ENFPs and INTJs are indeed a disastrous combo, or not -- to post it.

Marmalaide, enjoy your popcorn.

 

[Zarathustra]

The mere thought of emotional manipulation infuriates and disgusts me.

People who engage in this kind of behavior should be euthanized.

I think it all depends on what you mean by "manipulation", and whether or not the manipulator has good intentions.

"Manipulate" need not have pejorative connotations.

The musician manipulates his instrument; the poet manipulates words; and I manipulate you, my dear.

Bad manipulation is deplorable.

Good manipulation can be endlessly enjoyable.

 

[Qre:us]

A sliver of a picture, I think I often err in seeing a picture in a sliver, if that makes sense. :/

I understand what you're saying, and it has truth in it, from an Ne-perspective.....however, without thorough processing (our Ji/Je), the picture-from-a-slice may be giving a conclusion that is not doing justice to reality. And, as such, acting on that conclusion as if it has weighty merit, leads one to more and more tangled webs, rather than clearing the webs.

In this one can err on the side of error.

The mere thought of emotional manipulation infuriates and disgusts me.

People who engage in this kind of behavior should be euthanized.

Sometimes, we may not even know that we're being emotionally manipulative (want to acknowledge? cuz we're righteous in our hurt at the moment?), but, in my Fi friends, I've seen how they weild Fi like a sword, in those moments. Action/reaction - where the picture-from-a-slice-2-a-wholly-formed-conclusion evokes in them a force of emotion, and they wield that emotion back on the other.

And, a slice for a slice, leaves slices gushing misunderstanding and pain. Focus on the whole body of work.

 

[Zarathustra]

Well, as much as I'd prefer to say your perception of the situation stands in the way of FormI taking action and should thus be ignored, that would be an error on my part. I think it's a good idea for FormI to take some positive action, but owing to what you perceive too it's worth him getting prepared for some rejection, or maybe some confusing hesitancy on her part and the idea that he may actually cause her some upset by following through further than she wants... BUT, it's bad news for an INTJ to spend too much time pondering negative outcomes. It's worth knowing that something might not work, but there are some contingencies that it's crippling to try and plan for... sometimes one just has to do and hope.

That balance between emphasizing the negative and trying the positive... sometimes you just gotta have a try.

I would say that he needs to learn to manipulate the situation better.

In fact, she probably lost interest because she realized that he didn't know HOW TO manipulate her correctly.

FormI, SS is probably right, the girl's probably lost interest, but, if you really care enough about her, you need to learn what it takes to tantalize her, challenge her, intrigue her: in other words, to manipulate her in all the ways she wants you to, AND THEN (and only then), do as Kalach (and Scientist) recommends: authentically act on your desires.

 

[Zarathustra]

Im going to have to agree with Kalach on this one. I think he should take some initiative and ask her out. Then he'll have an idea where he stands based on her response.

Wrong.

Unless he piques her interest first, asking her out will almost certainly end in failure.

The problem is that he seemed to have piqued her interest, but eventually it faded...

 

[Zarathustra]

Z is exactly correct here.

In fact, I'm a very trusting person. And I watch my trust get violated over and over again (not talking just ENFPs, but people in general.) My policy is that I will trust you for the most part, but also be prepared to deal with the contingency that you break that trust.

In particular, if there is an arrangement to do an activity, and you don't show up, or you always come up with an excuse to not show up, you don't get to say that I don't trust you. I get to say that I trusted you too much. That's why we INTJs prefer an outright "no" to the all-options-open "maybe." We have other things to do in our lives than wait for you to make up your mind - or wait for you to gather the courage to say "no". (This latter half is more or less ENFP-directed.)

Perhaps the distrust you detect from the INTJs in your life is merited?

Appreciate the support uumlau, but I am definitely not trusting.

In my book, someone is not trustworthy until proven otherwise.

I think most INTJs would agree with this...

 

[SillySapienne]

Thank you, Qre:US. Finally someone sees it my way. I guess there has been some kind of validation for having it posted for all to see.

That being said, considering I never got to tell my side of the story, chew on this untold nugget:

Although she admits to being hypersensitive herself, she somehow thinks it's cool to "tease" me about having the ability to leave me and go back to her ex-boyfriend (who's been sending her emails begging her to leave me and get back with him) or having the ability to fuck one of my best friends (who she's admitted being attracted to).

Oh, and the most interesting missing part from her recap: she prefaced her I-could-find-a-shiny-new-boyfriend "joke" by saying that, having been through the experience of watching her father die of cancer, she's extremely capable of accepting difficult losses, and would thus be fine if our relationship were to come to an end...

Real funny joke, eh?

Le Sigh....

And, warning, what you're about to read will be incredibly personal, and regarded to some as tmi, so, choose now to ignore this post if you're not interested in my/our ENFP/INTJ drama.

Embarrassingly enough, he speaketh the truth.



I omitted these details in my recounting of the incident, not intentionally, which is kinda scary , but, I dunno, probably because I wasn't comfortable with accepting the nature of my daddy-issue demons that inevitably manifest themselves into my intimate relationships.



Yet another warning!!!

What I am about to admit/concede/reveal is highly personal, and does NOT necessarily, or at all, reflect ENFPs in general.

Yes, I am very much so an ENFP, but I am also an enneagram 4w5 who was raised in a family of one mother, two sisters and one absentee father who moonlighted as an abusive sadist.

I have trust issues, especially with men.

My father hurt me, and the only guy besides Z whom I ever loved, hurt me, over and over again.

Bleh!

For some reason, the whole burrito incident and the fight that ensued because of it instilled a buttload of fear within me.

Like, oh fuck, I really, really, really like this guy, like, a whole fucking lot, no, I fucking love him, is he rejecting me?

Does he not like me as much as I like him?

Am I about to get hurt, no, devastated?!?!?

And, this fear response elicits, or, rather elicited an incredibly nasty defense mechanism within me, the ol' I''l hurt you before you hurt me, asshole mixed with a lil you can't hurt me, I don't care about you, this relationship in the scheme of things means nothing, hurt me all you want, devastate me, shred my heart and soul into a million pieces, fuck you, I don't need you...


You get the point.

:blushing:

And, I hit him where it hurts, I did in fact threaten him, granted because I felt threatened myself, but, wow, if he said to me what I said to him!?!?!?







He didn't deserve those remarks, and the weight that they carried.

Nobody would, but especially him.

He's been nothing but compassionate, open, trust-worthy, and trusting towards me, and I slapped him across the face, no, the heart, the soul, because I fucking have a whole bag load of issues that are not his fault, or problem, really.

I don't know about you ENFPs, I don't know if you guys get scared and act or rather, react to your fears by going against your Fi to temporarily ease a rush of pain.

But, I am guilty of doing this, sometimes.

Z and I have discussed this, thoroughly.

And, I concede that how I reacted and what I said were deplorable, and I'm sorry, and he accepts my apology.

But....

I fucked up.

I kinda fucked up big.

Because by acting so childishly, I marred his perception of me, and more importantly, his ability to trust me.

:sad:

But, he understands that how I responded was a defensive mechanism, and a particularly offensive one, at that.

In the past, I have been guilty of juggling guys, or being with guys from a safe emotional distance.

But, with INTJ's, and with Z, the intimacy level is so strong, that it is both amazing and scary.

I care and love him so much that I fear if he were to reject me it would, in essence destroy me, for a loooooong time, too.

But, I want us to work out!!!



I love this guy, he's fucking amazing!!!

And, I hope he'll be open enough to realize that I am a wounded warrior, but a warrior nonetheless, and by warrior I mean a warrior of love, of course.

So, for any one reading this post, and who has read my previous post, I apologize for my omission, like I said, it was not intentional.

I'm a P, and an EP, at that, I write as I think, so there was no intentional manipulation going on there.

And, I apologize how I mischaracterized Z.

He had every right to be mad/disappointed/angry/let down by me.

I acted like a c*nt.

And, I'm sorry.

 

[Zarathustra]

Sorry, had been away for a bit. While I have to admit, almost NONE of what anyone has said seems to suggest the likelihood that this is going to work out the way I would have hoped, it's still been really helpful. SillySapien, as I've "listened" to your thoughts, I've been amazed at how much they seem to reflect the ways my friend seems to perceive and react to the world. It does seem that I have to prepare for this. If I "give her space" but she isn't going to change her mind or heart anyway, it's really just postponing the inevitable. If I ask her out (she had asked when we were at the museum on Sunday when I would be back in town [left that afternoon for a business trip]), but she is ambivalent and doesn't want to say yes but doesn't want to say no, then it sort of adds to my confusion. So, I've sent her a short emailing telling her that she seems to have withdrawn a bit, that if something has changed I'm sorry, and that she continues to intrigue me. We'll see.

You sounded all good until you told her that she continues to intrigue you...

You've got to make her work for that kind of a compliment. That kinda shit shouldn't come for free.