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  1. #151
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    ^ nice song.

    [youtube=bXyyTKGGWtM]i might be wrong[/youtube]
    Thom Yorke's INXJ, yeah? Check out 3:36 for the real nutcase face of inferior Se.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #152
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    Default Just Jumping in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waffle View Post
    I know that the INTJ is the suggested "natural partner" for the ENFP, but I can't stand EVERY INTJ I have ever met. I realize that's a hugely mean thing to say (I'm sorry!), but I have yet to be introduced to an INTJ that I liked.
    They are vindictive, cold, insensitive, and mooch without so much as a thanks.
    I know this most likely isn't true for all INTJ's, but what could be the reason behind these particularly annoying INTJs?
    I personally am drawn more towards the INFJ (Albeit, in a much more family-oriented way. My almost-brother friend and my father <3). They tend to be more sensitive and understanding toward the ENFP's natural drama, but also need us to coddle them a little and coax them out of their natural moody shell. Definitely one of my favorite types.
    What are your experiences with the INTJ and/or the INFJ, my fellow ENFPs?
    I was googling for something else regarding ENFPs and came across this thread, and I see that it has gone on for some time, and I haven't bothered to read all of the responses. However, I thought I would add my two cents, since I believe I have a very helpful perspective.

    I am an ENFP if there ever was one. So much so that when my family found the test and we all took it, I was the joke of the year for finally being pegged! Whenever anyone reads the description of ENFPs they remark that it is my biography. I do not straddle any other personality types and am a CHAMPION through and through.
    I am also engaged to an INTJ, my wonderful Mastermind, and we are the truest testament to the perfect match that these two personality types make. We had dated almost two years before we both took this test and saw that our personality types were suggested as good mates, and it was no surprise. Everyone in our lives refers to us as "the ideal couple." But regardless of what anyone outside our relationship says, I can personally testify that he is my ideal match in every way.

    The best thing about the ENFP/INTJ match up is the balancing element. I am enigmatic, talkative, intellectually adventurous and probing and passionate to a fault. I am also really fun and silly at times. Joe Butt's article on ENFPs says the following: "ENFPs have what some call a “silly switch.” They can be intellectual, serious, all business for a while, but whenever they get the chance, they flip that switch and become CAPTAIN WILDCHILD, the scourge of the swimming pool, ticklers par excellence. Som etimes they may even appear intoxicated when the “switch” is flipped." This is so true of me, and my fiance LOVES this about me. He is serious and meticulous and calculating, but in a one-on-one environment, his softer, sweeter and own youthful nature comes out and I really bring this out in him. He definitely credits me with keeping him young.
    In turn, he is my ROCK. I get very stressed out about money issues or things that require me to sit down and do accounting/budgeting/scheduling in an exacting nature and he calmly and gently guides me through these things and is effortlessly giving of time and resources. Essentially, he fuels my flight. I wouldn't have the freedom and support to be the soaring, busy, moving, achieving person I am without him.


    What I really want to comment on in regard to your concern is that I wonder if you have all the personality types down correctly. I am not trying to be presumptuous, but what you described above is NOT an INTJ. "They are vindictive, cold, insensitive, and mooch without so much as a thanks." Every count here is wrong, to me. My fiance, and this is characteristic of other INTJs from my reading, couldn't hold a grudge or be vindictive if he TRIED. Now, what he DOES believe in is justice. Fairness. Things ought to be equitable and people ought to be accountable. But he holds far fewer grudges than even I do! Secondly, INTJs only appear cold to those who don't know them. They see no value in shallow relationships with those they don't care for or don't have much in common with. When you get to know them, they are inextricably warm. My fiance is the warmest, kindest person I know, but VERY hard to get to know. My best friend thought he didn't like her for a good long while, which wasn't true at all! He is just a little shy at first, and spent a long time just listening to her to get to know her (another ENFP) before he offered a lot of his own opinions. INTJs are good listeners. But not cold. And never selfish or insensitive. As for mooching, this is what most convinces me that the people you know are NOT really INTJs. INTJs are FIERCELY independent! Mooching is much more of an artisan quality (I love artisans, too! This is not a dis!) My fiance wouldn't take from ANYONE. He offered my family at the outset of our engagement to pay for the entire wedding, and gratefully accepted whatever involvement my family wanted to have, but expected nothing. Autonomy is essential to an INTJs sense of self-worth. I don't think these people you have met are really INTJs.

    Remember that INTJs are one of the RAREST of all personality types. Maybe one to two percent of the population. I'd venture you haven't actually met one yet, and when you do, you'll know it.

  3. #153
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    Default Go find one!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I want one.

    Just for scientific purposes to prove you nay-sayers wrong, of course...
    Go find one!
    Seriously, I think you would find an INTJ and finally feel at home for the first time in your life! That was my experience!!!

    Seriously, as an ENFP, I can't explain how everyone here is so hateful of INTJs except by assuming that they have either never actually met one or have only met examples who are really emotionally unhealthy!

    My fiance and I want to come up with a theory about how the different types are affected by dysfunction. Anyone who is maladjusted and emotionally unhealthy and unaware can give you a BAD experience, regardless of type. And I am starting to wonder, as I read more of the posts in this thread, if a lot of the so-called ENFPs on here are really ENFPs. As a champion, myself, I know that we always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, so much so that we're likely to get taken advantage of before we start hating on people or cutting them off. A lot of people here seem really ready to put a negative stamp on the entire INTJ clan but I don't think most of them have yet had an honest experience with one. A lot of the descriptions of INTJs contradict the actually Kerisey & Meyers/Briggs descriptions of them!
    My fiance and I went on out first date (a set-up by mutual friends who knew we would be perfect together) and we closed down two coffee shops because we didn't want to stop talking. We both thrive on discussing abstract ideas and sharing our thoughts. His "J" and my "P" and like a dynamic duo. I share my abstract perceptions and he ties the kite strings of these thoughts down to earth with his careful judgments in a way that lets the kite fly even higher than before!!! He loves my outgoing nature, and his "I" is never competing with my "E" which is IDEAL in all situations (Almost every personality assessment recognizes that extrovert and introverts are the best matches for each other). Everything about the ENFP/INTJ match-up is healthy and balancing and comforting and freeing. I think the key is that both of these types need a lot of personal time to grow as individuals. Young ENFPs are rash, passionate to the point of impulsive at times, and wear their hearts like a string of beads around their necks to get bruised easily. It takes some growing up for an ENFP to learn what battles to fight and which people to trust. Similarly, INTJs are a little self-absorbed in youth, in that they know there is a big world out there to conquer and are eager to get to the research and hard work necessary to make something out of themselves. They are also very independent and it takes some maturity and stability (material and financial) until they are in a position to be open to others and start looking seriously for romance. But that said, they are also possibly the most loyal and trustworthy of any type.
    So, maybe, an 18 year old ENFP and a 22 year old INTJ wouldn't work out very well. In fact, my fiance and I often joke that it's a good thing we met when we did and not a minute earlier, because we both think we would have sabotaged it in our younger years.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post

    Put simply, INTJs are out of their depth with ENFPs.
    Not true. INTJs are so so so so so misunderstood!!!!
    It's driving me crazy! I want to go on a campaign to make everyone understand! INTJs are the still waters that run deep!

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOwl View Post
    I was googling for something else regarding ENFPs and came across this thread, and I see that it has gone on for some time, and I haven't bothered to read all of the responses. However, I thought I would add my two cents, since I believe I have a very helpful perspective.

    I am an ENFP if there ever was one. So much so that when my family found the test and we all took it, I was the joke of the year for finally being pegged! Whenever anyone reads the description of ENFPs they remark that it is my biography. I do not straddle any other personality types and am a CHAMPION through and through.
    I am also engaged to an INTJ, my wonderful Mastermind, and we are the truest testament to the perfect match that these two personality types make. We had dated almost two years before we both took this test and saw that our personality types were suggested as good mates, and it was no surprise. Everyone in our lives refers to us as "the ideal couple." But regardless of what anyone outside our relationship says, I can personally testify that he is my ideal match in every way.

    The best thing about the ENFP/INTJ match up is the balancing element. I am enigmatic, talkative, intellectually adventurous and probing and passionate to a fault. I am also really fun and silly at times. Joe Butt's article on ENFPs says the following: "ENFPs have what some call a “silly switch.” They can be intellectual, serious, all business for a while, but whenever they get the chance, they flip that switch and become CAPTAIN WILDCHILD, the scourge of the swimming pool, ticklers par excellence. Som etimes they may even appear intoxicated when the “switch” is flipped." This is so true of me, and my fiance LOVES this about me. He is serious and meticulous and calculating, but in a one-on-one environment, his softer, sweeter and own youthful nature comes out and I really bring this out in him. He definitely credits me with keeping him young.
    In turn, he is my ROCK. I get very stressed out about money issues or things that require me to sit down and do accounting/budgeting/scheduling in an exacting nature and he calmly and gently guides me through these things and is effortlessly giving of time and resources. Essentially, he fuels my flight. I wouldn't have the freedom and support to be the soaring, busy, moving, achieving person I am without him.


    What I really want to comment on in regard to your concern is that I wonder if you have all the personality types down correctly. I am not trying to be presumptuous, but what you described above is NOT an INTJ. "They are vindictive, cold, insensitive, and mooch without so much as a thanks." Every count here is wrong, to me. My fiance, and this is characteristic of other INTJs from my reading, couldn't hold a grudge or be vindictive if he TRIED. Now, what he DOES believe in is justice. Fairness. Things ought to be equitable and people ought to be accountable. But he holds far fewer grudges than even I do! Secondly, INTJs only appear cold to those who don't know them. They see no value in shallow relationships with those they don't care for or don't have much in common with. When you get to know them, they are inextricably warm. My fiance is the warmest, kindest person I know, but VERY hard to get to know. My best friend thought he didn't like her for a good long while, which wasn't true at all! He is just a little shy at first, and spent a long time just listening to her to get to know her (another ENFP) before he offered a lot of his own opinions. INTJs are good listeners. But not cold. And never selfish or insensitive. As for mooching, this is what most convinces me that the people you know are NOT really INTJs. INTJs are FIERCELY independent! Mooching is much more of an artisan quality (I love artisans, too! This is not a dis!) My fiance wouldn't take from ANYONE. He offered my family at the outset of our engagement to pay for the entire wedding, and gratefully accepted whatever involvement my family wanted to have, but expected nothing. Autonomy is essential to an INTJs sense of self-worth. I don't think these people you have met are really INTJs.

    Remember that INTJs are one of the RAREST of all personality types. Maybe one to two percent of the population. I'd venture you haven't actually met one yet, and when you do, you'll know it.
    Agreed 100%. Finally, an ENFP who fully understands.

    EDIT: Although I will state that it also depends on the ENFPs beliefs and the INTJs level of open-mindedness. Therefore, the relationship will probably only work if the ENFP has beliefs (which she/he will), that the INTJ is willing to accept.

  6. #156
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    I love the perception that anyone who has different preferences must have their type wrong, have the other person's type wrong, or misunderstand the issue entirely.

    Really, I do.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I love the perception that anyone who has different preferences must have their type wrong, have the other person's type wrong, or misunderstand the issue entirely.

    Really, I do.
    Obviously you don't. Your sarcasm is not so subtle. But that's not really what's going on here. I do not dispute preferences at all. Most of the descriptions given here of INTJs are directly contradictory of everything the authors and major contributors of this particular personality theory have to say on the subject. This is not a particularly wishy-washy theory. It's very precise. And I specifically addressed each description and why I am DOUBTFUL (I exercise caution in throwing down absolutes about people I have never met) that an INTJ could fit that profile. I also accounted for the possibility that there are some UNHEALTHY INTJs out there. If some people have negative opinions of these individuals, that is fine. The topic at hand was whether or not two types were well matched and I am offering a very first hand perspective. I think it's easy to get types wrong, especially when you are guessing about another person's type. I merely suggested that those who fear they might, as ENFPs be poorly matched with an INTJ take a second look at it, because it has been very successful for me.

    It was in no way meant as a slight or an insult. And again, it was not about preferences.

  8. #158
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Cryptic observation: that Thom Yorke video...

    Thom Yorke's INXJ, and I think I'd be willing to bet just by watching that the other guy, Jonny Greenwood, is SP. See the differences?

    It's a sore point, that kind of difference, but there it is.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #159
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOwl View Post
    My fiance and I want to come up with a theory about how the different types are affected by dysfunction. Anyone who is maladjusted and emotionally unhealthy and unaware can give you a BAD experience, regardless of type. And I am starting to wonder, as I read more of the posts in this thread, if a lot of the so-called ENFPs on here are really ENFPs. As a champion, myself, I know that we always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, so much so that we're likely to get taken advantage of before we start hating on people or cutting them off. A lot of people here seem really ready to put a negative stamp on the entire INTJ clan but I don't think most of them have yet had an honest experience with one. A lot of the descriptions of INTJs contradict the actually Kerisey & Meyers/Briggs descriptions of them!
    My fiance and I went on out first date (a set-up by mutual friends who knew we would be perfect together) and we closed down two coffee shops because we didn't want to stop talking. We both thrive on discussing abstract ideas and sharing our thoughts. His "J" and my "P" and like a dynamic duo. I share my abstract perceptions and he ties the kite strings of these thoughts down to earth with his careful judgments in a way that lets the kite fly even higher than before!!! He loves my outgoing nature, and his "I" is never competing with my "E" which is IDEAL in all situations (Almost every personality assessment recognizes that extrovert and introverts are the best matches for each other). Everything about the ENFP/INTJ match-up is healthy and balancing and comforting and freeing. I think the key is that both of these types need a lot of personal time to grow as individuals. Young ENFPs are rash, passionate to the point of impulsive at times, and wear their hearts like a string of beads around their necks to get bruised easily. It takes some growing up for an ENFP to learn what battles to fight and which people to trust. Similarly, INTJs are a little self-absorbed in youth, in that they know there is a big world out there to conquer and are eager to get to the research and hard work necessary to make something out of themselves. They are also very independent and it takes some maturity and stability (material and financial) until they are in a position to be open to others and start looking seriously for romance. But that said, they are also possibly the most loyal and trustworthy of any type.
    Excellent post!



    So, maybe, an 18 year old ENFP and a 22 year old INTJ wouldn't work out very well. In fact, my fiance and I often joke that it's a good thing we met when we did and not a minute earlier, because we both think we would have sabotaged it in our younger years.
    Hahahahaaa, this sounds eerily familiar, my INTJ boyfriend and I have discussed on several occasions how if we were to meet any sooner in our lives, (he's 26, and I'm 27), though we would have definitely been attracted to each other, we would have never ever worked out.

    It certainly does take a level of maturity and experience in both parties for this pairing to really take shape and manifest itself to previously believed unattainable heights.

    To date, I have never been with a man with whom I've been even remotely close to being able to communicate as openly, frequently and deeply as I have with my INTJ.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #160
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    I have read about 80% of the thread…
    Kalach is so impressive with his persistent and multifaceted speculations (the one on how Si might actually be useful made me chuckle)… and I was little taken aback from some of the enfps that automatically played the easiest card in this particular game which is “bias from personal experience”. Oddly enough, I was moved by the_state_i_am_in’s conclusion 4-5 pages back… heh, a love that meets and satisfies every function? Maybe it’s because I’m taking meds just like the author…

    but chemical fictions aside,

    I’ve only met about 3-4 people in my life that I would classify as INTJs… and I’ve travelled and lived in various cosmopolitan cities (what I’m trying to convey is that my memory of the sample population that I’m using for this subjective value is a little larger than average). Over my lifetime, I’ve “felt” (as in, immediately yet-abstractly sensed) possibly thousands of ideas and hunches whose meaning I’ve dismantled and upon doing so, either integrated, impersonated or abandoned completely - most of the time on the fly. The way I would describe INTJs are people who have at some point arrived at some of the same ideas but unlike me, very carefully picked at them and organized them. When I talk to them, it’s like stepping into a library, everything is well-categorized. And there’s that air of “A=A or else it doesn’t make sense”. Which frankly is puzzling as hell, but in a good way. And surprise! They listen to ideas and are receptive to my tangents and fragments. Difference is, they will take each and every one of my statements very seriously and analyze them with what seems like, all the tough-mindedness in the world – the kind that I would use if I was severely threatened. So then I make the mistake to think they are something like really clever puppies that were harmed when they were very young and thus out of compulsion, organized their whole world. Only to find that it was them who saw me as the broken animal who “could have been brilliant if only she had reduced the impact of her emotions.” And I kind of don’t even know how to bridge that one. They tend to say “pain in the ass” in reference to people or situations, in a sort of absolute sense, which makes me feel uncomfortable. For me “pain in the ass” is relative until I am forced to go about things in a step-by-step way… without alternatives. What I find fascinating is that somehow they appeal to my sense of a person’s “potential” despite their methods. And maybe it’s because I’m currently chemically imbalanced, but I’m jealous. They get to arrive at X conclusion without losing their autonomy, they also get to defend themselves from the rest of the world and not be too quickly swayed by one’s own sense of empathy. There’s days where finding my sense of “self” is like playing darts in the fog at midnight – but them, from the outside, they look so immoveable and austere… and I love that, they are –there-, in body, mind, abstraction and all.

    I could write more but…

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