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  1. #121
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Yeah, and that can go either way too, the frosty burn or the sigh and the explanation.
    the frosty burn would be the end.. Alas it would make us cry and be a rejection of our Fi offering. It is our weak point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Well see, there's two more likely conflict scenarios for INTJ/ENFP: Ne vs Se and Ne vs Ni.

    Ni is an introverted function, so by and large it is done in private without much consultation. So the first conflict area for INTJ/ENFP is Ne vs Se. It goes like this:

    - INTJ conceives of a plan (Ni+Te)
    - INTJ worries aloud to supporting ENFP, seeking Fi.
    - ENFP is entertained: Ne is making the connections, Fi is sharing the emo, and woo, Te is engaged and that's exciting.
    - INTJ, supported, lights the afterburners, Se.
    - ENFP is shut down.

    See, INTJ Se is an end-stage device. The possibilities have been assessed, a plan has been devised, feeling is in place, so: act. At this stage the novelty and fluidity zone is all physical. The eyes see and seek immediately present options for completion of the set adventure. This is NOT a time for possibilities and intuitions. If it is, it means something has gone so wrong that the original plan has had to be re-assessed. Basically, INTJ in Se-mode is not listening to intuition and will not welcome it as a conscious interruption. The program has been set, the long-range stage management has been conceptualised, re-conceptualising is an out of place process here.

    So what does an ENFP do at this point? Recoil, I guess. Certainly she is restricted in her involvement in the scene. I can't emphasize enough how little extroverted intuition is welcome at the end stage of a plan. The end stage is for doing, not second-guessing. The doing is not expected to create any surprises. It is expected to open up practical options for the next step of the plan. It is not meant to create new ideas, just new options. It actually will create new ideas, but it is the options that were the target. The INTJ will not welcome discussion of what it all means UNLESS the dictated action has been performed. Shut your mouth woman and perform.
    I guess it depends upon what you are accomplishing.

    Typically, in a work scenario, the INTJ is correct. 95% of the time you should just perform. This makes my tertiary Te happy as typically the INTJ is competent, and I can deploy my NeFiTe magic to get others to comply with the INTJ's directives and thus save the universe.

    The other 5% of the time? The INTJ is wrong. The best way to deliver is to run in the door like a cracked out Fi fairy, and drop a Te bomb, more Fi sparkle-shine then run. Wait a day or so, then stop by to discuss in more depth. If it doesnt work or you are not friends with the INTJ, then prepare for a Te confrontation. But honestly, you dont need to do this typically as the INTJs seem too smart to stay stuck in their mistake once you give them the right information.

    Personal issues? I see this Se activity in my ex dad-in-law. He will become tyrannical in his chosen objective-ie hanging up christmas lights, investing in the stock market, or plunging the toilet. The best enfp recourse? giggle, agree, and let him do his thing and help as needed. 95% of the time I could care less and he is right anyways. But good lord he can get so hysterically bitchy and determined.

    The last 5% of the time is where the overlap will occur. I'd see kids, finances, or long term life plans being the big points of battles. However I would expect you'd bring the enfp in on those convos actively and early and expect them to be the big points of contention-as they are in any relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    - ENFP and INTJ engage in end-stage activities together, the ENFP being somewhat conservative in Si-mode and the INTJ being somewhat immaturely wild in Se-mode.
    I dunno. I dont have enough Si influence to gauge this. My older ENFPs at work can be very quiet but they are all upper level executives and I think they sort of use Fi-Te-Si to look like Fe.

    Funny, I suddenly realized the only INTJ who has ever hit on me at a bar was a sixty year old guy. I was reading a philosophy book and he sat down next to me and just kept asking me questions until I finally gave up, put the book down and argued/talked with him. Te Tenacity fueled by Se wild child?

    (Too bad-I lost my wallet with his business card, as I planned to call him up next time I was in san fran.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Why? Because there's still that in-the-moment conflict. At the intuition stage Ni still gets over-whelmed with the sheer needless amount of tangential material to bat away from the ENFP, and either way focuses hard so the ENFP is always getting ideas knocked back. And down at the end stage stuff, there's still the Ne vs Se conflict because Si didn't last that long up against Se and all the in-the-momentness of it called Ne out to not-play.

    All up, because there's the thinking feeling exchange, it's a situation that the ENFP can derive enough satisfaction from that she'll stick it out for several years. And during those years a sense of confinement and restriction will be a source of growing, unvoiced resentment. Eventually she'll have to be free. And the INTJ? Well, it depends how much of the INTJ's money the ENFP spent during those years.
    Hmm-so for the Ne dump-you have to tell the enfp to STFU. Ouch, yes this would hurt a little, and be fucking annoying. I can see this in my ex pop-in-law and my Best friend from grad school. Each time they did this it pinched-but I was being spastic and needed to chill. Why wouldnt you want to hear my 47,000 ideas all in one breath?

    Takes flexing on both sides, though, as sometimes you have to tolerate the Ne play. Plus I would always keep my ENTP posse to run rampant with Ne play. To expect to have all of your needs met by one person is unrealistic.

    Anyways this Ne smackdown is nothing compared to the pain of Fi rejection.

    Confining restriction? I dunno, K, I think far worse things get tolerated in relationships. When married to my ISTP, I couldnt share any Fi or any Ne. He very actively would be repelled by both. There was resentment there but I still loved him in a Te way. (For the record he spent far more of my money than the reverse.) I would have stayed if he had not left me.

    Perhaps keep in mind as you find the enfps-this is theoretical on my part-but I think Fi is the link in a relationship. We use Te protectively, to defend others and in accomplishing objectives, and use Ne to explore and play, but I'd bet that most ENFPs could bend a lot on the Ne/Si front if the Fi needs were met. Also tert Te also gives us a strong sense of endurance and commitment as we get older. To quit-ie divorce-is to fail on an emo promise we made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Does an ISTJ do this crap any better? He's not supposed to, is he? ISTJ and ENFP get to negotiate in the middle of the story, do we do it the traditional way I know well or do we do it the unlikely and colorful new way you think might work. They get screwed if either the ISTJ really doesn't know anything about responding to feeling and/or the ENFP really doesn't know anything about planning.
    Honestly I really adore them but most could never really tolerate the level of weirdness I can generate. In a meeting last week, we went from long term project planning, resource allocation, questions about oligonucleotide orientations, to me rubbing my head on the two ISTJs trying to convince them I had squirrels in my brain. My ENTP says this makes the meetings go smoother as I can break up horrific Te fights and make everybody giggle-it's like a reset button.

    Could they deal with a lifetime of this? some could maybe-my ENTP is married to an ISTJ and I know he never could.

  2. #122
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'll tell you all a you one thing though...

    It's a royal pain in the ass to have come upon an intuition that seems important and then have someone want to debate it. Debate? What the hell for? I haven't been bothering with this intuition for academic purposes, but for assessment of reality! Debate doesn't work. It merely raises all sides of the issue. What the hell was I doing with all that time with introverted intuition anyway that now I have to go back over it again?

    Debate is for sissies.


    Sure, you guys need to be in the moment to discover the meaning of something. You love the debate.

    And sure, it will in fact very likely hone the proper presentation of the idea until the truth is clearly presented. Assuming of course that the debate hasn't spent most of it's time ruling out tiresome side issues and trying to win.

    So what?

    Introverted intuition tends to arrive at actionable claims. Debate delays the action.

    Oh sure, the intuition might be wrong. But introverted intuition doesn't really spend all that much time making stuff up. It is focused already.


    To debate is to delay.

    And frequently, to misdirect.



    That can be what happens when Ne meets Ni.
    Question; is Ni a masturbatory function, seriously, is it?!?

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

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    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #123
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    The other 5% of the time? The INTJ is wrong. The best way to deliver is to run in the door like a cracked out Fi fairy, and drop a Te bomb, more Fi sparkle-shine then run. Wait a day or so, then stop by to discuss in more depth.
    I LOL'ed.

    And quoted for truth.


    Hmm-so for the Ne dump-you have to tell the enfp to STFU. Ouch, yes this would hurt a little, and be fucking annoying. I can see this in my ex pop-in-law and my Best friend from grad school. Each time they did this it pinched-but I was being spastic and needed to chill. Why wouldnt you want to hear my 47,000 ideas all in one breath?

    Takes flexing on both sides, though, as sometimes you have to tolerate the Ne play.
    Ni in the INTJ is the Batman perspective. One guy, moody, a few mumbled words, and everything in the total range of what he sees is covered.

    Ne interacting with Ni is like some guy down on the streets saying hey lets drive over here and see what we see, and then we could drive over there too and look in the nightclub and, gawd, check it out, look down this alley! Ne is hardly as slow and laborious as some guy actually driving from place to place, but in discussion it can seem like that. The Ne user is forever saying, hey, come down off your perch and investigate *this* avenue for a while! And Batman is like, why the fuck would I do that, I see everything as it is and you're wanting me to, what, give up the sight? Focus, you retard! Get it together. This stuff is already known!


    Ne and Ni do this when they first meet and it's annoying. With prolonged contact... maybe the ENFP gets some Te ready early so she doesn't have to blitz every idea nearly so much, and maybe the INTJ gets some expansiveness... somehow.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #124
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    Kalach: Your comments on the INTJ + INFP combo would be appreciated. if you could differentiate which comments stem from experience and which stem from your use of Ni, that too would be appreciated...

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I LOL'ed.

    And quoted for truth.




    Ni in the INTJ is the Batman perspective. One guy, moody, a few mumbled words, and everything in the total range of what he sees is covered.

    Ne interacting with Ni is like some guy down on the streets saying hey lets drive over here and see what we see, and then we could drive over there too and look in the nightclub and, gawd, check it out, look down this alley! Ne is hardly as slow and laborious as some guy actually driving from place to place, but in discussion it can seem like that. The Ne user is forever saying, hey, come down off your perch and investigate *this* avenue for a while! And Batman is like, why the fuck would I do that, I see everything as it is and you're wanting me to, what, give up the sight? Focus, you retard! Get it together. This stuff is already known!


    Ne and Ni do this when they first meet and it's annoying. With prolonged contact... maybe the ENFP gets some Te ready early so she doesn't have to blitz every idea nearly so much, and maybe the INTJ gets some expansiveness... somehow.
    You've been going on about this for so long, there appears to some sort of agenda you've got, like there's an ENFP female you're pissed at or something.

  6. #126
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Maybe this ^ is how an INTJ gets his expansiveness.

    ENFP: Geez, you're still on this? Can't we do something new?
    INTJ: *ponders*

    And what's he pondering? Do I have to say "You're adorable when you're pouty" or can I get away with calling her a pain in the ass? *Cost-Benefits calculation*

    INTJ: Okay, what do you wanna do?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #127
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fecal McAngry View Post
    Kalach: Your comments on the INTJ + INFP combo would be appreciated. if you could differentiate which comments stem from experience and which stem from your use of Ni, that too would be appreciated...
    INFPs find INTJs boring after a while, and then they make them implode.

    I know two INFPs in real life, but I'm twenty years older than one and thirteen years older than the other, so while I did feel the super inflation preliminary to the crashing in upon oneself, I was able to get away in time.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #128
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Two things (out of 47,000 possible things):

    INTJ relationships I know of:

    INTJ males -50-married to ISTP 51 happy but baptists, thus religion holds them together, when differences are very real

    INTJ 30 male-INFJ 30 female happy but somber. Both religious and republicans, but seem very happy. This INTJ said I was a smart cookie!

    INFJ male 28-presumed INTJ 28 female by an MBTI test- Both these guys are religious, but I talk a lot with this infj guy about Fe, have never met his wife. He was very much the manipulative INFJ and player when younger, however he says the INTJ shuts this crap down. They bound over shared commitment and goals.

    INTJ female-33-ENFP male-33 These guys have been married about five years and almost got divorced. She has issues with anorexia and he with emo. The day they were to sign the divorce papers, they fixed things. That was two years ago and they seem to have worked through most issues.

    INTJ female-42-ENFP male-this lady is an ass kicking machine. Her second child was born with a heart defect requiring open heart surgery at four months. Her husband stays home with the kids. I met him at the christmas party and he was about as sweet as they come.

    INTJ female-38, presumed ENTP male-these guys got divorced. She described him as having periods of profound depression where he would be unreachable and very bitter and resentful. Later she tried to date an enfp guy but he decided he was gay.

    A last funny note is an INTJ guy who works with an INFJ girl. She has amazing ENTP manipulation skills. However her and the INTJ guy are trying to kill each other, as my guess is that she tried some sweet Fe and got Te bitch slapped in return.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I LOL'ed.
    Ni in the INTJ is the Batman perspective. One guy, moody, a few mumbled words, and everything in the total range of what he sees is covered.

    Ne interacting with Ni is like some guy down on the streets saying hey lets drive over here and see what we see, and then we could drive over there too and look in the nightclub and, gawd, check it out, look down this alley! Ne is hardly as slow and laborious as some guy actually driving from place to place, but in discussion it can seem like that. The Ne user is forever saying, hey, come down off your perch and investigate *this* avenue for a while! And Batman is like, why the fuck would I do that, I see everything as it is and you're wanting me to, what, give up the sight? Focus, you retard! Get it together. This stuff is already known!
    I reflected upon my Si past when Ne and Ni interact. What I find is that very often-if I have time-I become quiet.

    Even here-especially reading provoker's posts-I find an Ni dump silences Ne. Often it is very novel. Also there is something about the cadence of an NiTe delivered thought that ends up feeling sort of sing-song soothing.

    This sounds so stupid, but I will find I sit on the ground next to my ENFP thirteen year old and we will listen to my exINTJ father in law give us NiTe lectures on whatever topic is in his brain. Most recently it was failures at chernobyl and three mile. All through the talk I pick up on Ne ideas, but rather than interrupt, I sort of file them away. Only the very important flaws will result in an interruption.

    I have the attention of a housefly, yet when an INTJ does this, it is a bit like a hit of valium. This may be just me though...(Can I get an icon for alien?)

    And the more well known the topic of conversation, the more likely I will feel inclined to point out the flaw. It's the honorable thing to do, as I wouldnt want the INTJ to end up face first in the mud.

    And sometimes you do need to come off the perch. You missed the tunnels that your perch doesnt let you see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Maybe this ^ is how an INTJ gets his expansiveness.

    ENFP: Geez, you're still on this? Can't we do something new?
    INTJ: *ponders*

    And what's he pondering? Do I have to say "You're adorable when you're pouty" or can I get away with calling her a pain in the ass? *Cost-Benefits calculation*

    INTJ: Okay, what do you wanna do?
    I'd go with the "pain in the ass" but be prepared.

  9. #129
    The King Liason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waffle View Post
    I know that the INTJ is the suggested "natural partner" for the ENFP, but I can't stand EVERY INTJ I have ever met. I realize that's a hugely mean thing to say (I'm sorry!), but I have yet to be introduced to an INTJ that I liked.
    They are vindictive, cold, insensitive, and mooch without so much as a thanks.
    You obviously haven't met me? :]

    Quote Originally Posted by Waffle View Post
    I know this most likely isn't true for all INTJ's, but what could be the reason behind these particularly annoying INTJs?
    Often times INTJ's are rather much self conscious. Just because their posts seem all sorted out and calm does not mean that they don't go back to them later and check for spelling errors. "Just in case" :]

    We get stressed out like all the other types, and many INTJ's have mediocre skills with connecting to the EXFX types. Also, we often get intimidated easily, even if it doesn't seem so, and react accordingly, even if it is perceived as hostile or immature.
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  10. #130
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    I think its an awesome couple idea thing.

    As long as the enfp isnt too flaky

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