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  1. #111
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    have to agree...that is not the least bit true for me...i gots no si...really really don't...it's quite sad.
    Me too.

    I know when I meet someone new in RL and we talk he usually doesnt get why my life isnt perfect (if i complain)... i just figured out the other day that the severe lack of Si is making me such a mess.

    as for ENFP-INTJ pairing... I have no expirience, but I was never attracted to any INTJ I met.. too different.

  2. #112
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Kalach--

    Good post. Agreed all around.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #113
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'll tell you all a you one thing though...

    It's a royal pain in the ass to have come upon an intuition that seems important and then have someone want to debate it. Debate? What the hell for? I haven't been bothering with this intuition for academic purposes, but for assessment of reality! Debate doesn't work. It merely raises all sides of the issue. What the hell was I doing with all that time with introverted intuition anyway that now I have to go back over it again?

    Debate is for sissies.


    Sure, you guys need to be in the moment to discover the meaning of something. You love the debate.

    And sure, it will in fact very likely hone the proper presentation of the idea until the truth is clearly presented. Assuming of course that the debate hasn't spent most of it's time ruling out tiresome side issues and trying to win.

    So what?

    Introverted intuition tends to arrive at actionable claims. Debate delays the action.

    Oh sure, the intuition might be wrong. But introverted intuition doesn't really spend all that much time making stuff up. It is focused already.


    To debate is to delay.

    And frequently, to misdirect.



    That can be what happens when Ne meets Ni.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #114
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waffle View Post
    I know this most likely isn't true for all INTJ's, but what could be the reason behind these particularly annoying INTJs?
    You mistype them? Introverted asshole = INTJ?

  5. #115
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    yet the enfp feeling of lifting you up and getting you going and then leaving feels like those abandoned buildings past tijuana as you go further down into baja mexico. just capital failures. didn't really care to invest so much. for a mercurial, moody, iconoclastic 5w4 sx/sp, who believes most ardently in his own vision of the world, his own aesthetic and intellectual uniqueness, who has been rather dissatisfied with most of his previous relationship experiences and FINALLY opened up and started to let go, this feels like falling off a cliff.
    wow. this sounds so familiar-except for me it was an ENTP who emo dumped waves of Fe at me, brought warped little Fi flaring to the surface, then wondered off after other shiny, not so pointed, objects.

    Duct tape appears to have fixed most of the breaks, along with the super glue you can buy at the pharmacy to glue your own wounds together. Sorry State. Why do we Ne's wonder off in such a way chasing endless ideas? It is intoxicating, I suppose...

    At a recent sales meeting, we discussed attention grabbing devices to be employed at the start of giving a presentation. One of them was "discordant events". Something that makes my brain go "chink". Ne-Ne plays endless tag down a forrest path. Ni serves as a discordant event to Ne and makes it stop and go huh? Also INTJs are better at halting NeFi emo than any other. They just say something funny, irreverent and disocrdant that totally knocks the Ne emo off track and usually makes me break out laughing, immediately ceasing the Ne-Fi circles of amplifying emo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And the other side of the coin... well, there is another side of the coin, but I've been not finding ways to express it for two days now. Something about INTJs being hypersensitive to hints and clues of rejection and childishly (childlikely?) willing to pick up their armor and go home, calling the whole thing off. That tertiary temptation trick of "This will mar my soul!" tends to drive up the introverted feeling stakes.
    Hehe, and if we like you we will quickly notice you are gone, spin on our heels, and skip along behind you peeking at you out of the corner of our eyes! "Where are you going silly ? Are you pouting???" and we will quietly wait for you. It becomes a game....(Hmmm, is this our version of flirting like the Fe's do?)

    (On that note my IXTJ toddler can has more endurance in pouty petulant mode than any feeler I have ever seen. Sweet, silly smiley hugs, emo affirmation and tickles fix THAT problem.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The total connection comes when both partners are up-ended. They've worked their way down through the functions, the IXTJ engaging Fi, the EXFP engaging Te, and then what? The inferior. If it were INTJ, he'd activate Se; but if it were ISTJ, he'd activate Ne, and speak directly to the ENFP's dominant function, and the connection is complete... for when the ISTJ takes the role of the Ne user, the ENFP can take the role of the Si user. The whole person is engaged. The meaning (found in Ne) of all that has been done (found in Si) is shared.

    Whereas the INTJ would say, let's go dancing.
    I have only seen one ISTJ tap into Ne-and he is under massive stress. I think that the Se-Si would be a more surmountable issue than the Ne-Si barrier. I can play with ISTJs, dazzle them, and we can commisurate in our Si -Fi pain points, but long term connection? Maybe, but my house is such a mess. Besides I like to dance!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Forgive moi, but the stubborn part rests in the insistence of Ne, with a concomitant insistence on Si. Which is to say, dreams and wonders do not appear unless they're understandably prompted by immediate events. Meaning, deep in your hearts y'all ENFPs are as earth-bound as any ISTJ.

    INTJs have a similar problem, but it's not that we're stubbornly connected to the past. No, INTJs stubbornly insist nothing is real unless it's happening right here right now.

    If I may, once again, this is an Ne/Si philosophy... if I don't know details of real people, it can't have real meaning. Ask an ISTJ, get a similar, though far less liberal, assessment of meaning.
    Interesting-earth bound. I Ne connect with entps as our internal functions complement so well. We round each other's ideas out and fill in the blind spots. How does this happen with Ne-Ni?

    Anyways, the ideas prompt ideas prompt ideas-meaning I could be 25 layers from the earthbound idea within one minute leaving my ISTJs so far behind.

    The INTJ "real people" comment might explain why Jung wasnt 100% at getting his ideas across. He would have these great Ni-Te ideas and then try and use a really stupid Se example of a particular person to illustrate and totally lose the point. I take the Ni-Te idea and then generalize it across whole groups uaing Ne-Fi-Te I guess? I dont need a specific instance except as a given data point??? Hmmm...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The alternative is the brighter burn of the two N's together. And you know what they say about burning twice as bright? That they have big feet.

    But what if they know better? So that's why have this discussion has to be had... see the long range planning of it?
    Hey only enfps get to make nonsensical Fi leaps of irrational silliness. Does that mean their feet merge into a vision of holistic, beautiful, neverending oneness? How many toes does it have?

    Can we say "Te need" for structure, risk assessment and acknowledgment of the boundaries of the problem? What are the metrics/goals? What Ni-Te goal all this relationship stuff accomplish anyways?

  6. #116
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Hehe, and if we like you we will quickly notice you are gone, spin on our heels, and skip along behind you peeking at you out of the corner of our eyes! "Where are you going silly ? Are you pouting???" and we will quietly wait for you. It becomes a game....(Hmmm, is this our version of flirting like the Fe's do?)
    Yeah, and that can go either way too, the frosty burn or the sigh and the explanation.

    I have only seen one ISTJ tap into Ne-and he is under massive stress. I think that the Se-Si would be a more surmountable issue than the Ne-Si barrier.
    Well see, there's two more likely conflict scenarios for INTJ/ENFP: Ne vs Se and Ne vs Ni.

    Ni is an introverted function, so by and large it is done in private without much consultation. So the first conflict area for INTJ/ENFP is Ne vs Se. It goes like this:

    - INTJ conceives of a plan (Ni+Te)
    - INTJ worries aloud to supporting ENFP, seeking Fi.
    - ENFP is entertained: Ne is making the connections, Fi is sharing the emo, and woo, Te is engaged and that's exciting.
    - INTJ, supported, lights the afterburners, Se.
    - ENFP is shut down.

    See, INTJ Se is an end-stage device. The possibilities have been assessed, a plan has been devised, feeling is in place, so: act. At this stage the novelty and fluidity zone is all physical. The eyes see and seek immediately present options for completion of the set adventure. This is NOT a time for possibilities and intuitions. If it is, it means something has gone so wrong that the original plan has had to be re-assessed. Basically, INTJ in Se-mode is not listening to intuition and will not welcome it as a conscious interruption. The program has been set, the long-range stage management has been conceptualised, re-conceptualising is an out of place process here.

    So what does an ENFP do at this point? Recoil, I guess. Certainly she is restricted in her involvement in the scene. I can't emphasize enough how little extroverted intuition is welcome at the end stage of a plan. The end stage is for doing, not second-guessing. The doing is not expected to create any surprises. It is expected to open up practical options for the next step of the plan. It is not meant to create new ideas, just new options. It actually will create new ideas, but it is the options that were the target. The INTJ will not welcome discussion of what it all means UNLESS the dictated action has been performed. Shut your mouth woman and perform.

    And I'm not seeing an ENFP living too long--not more than several years anyway--with that kind of treatment.

    It all gets worse however. At some point the INTJ will open up. He'll allow information out at earlier stages. Then instead of expecting the ENFP to ESFP-like join in at the end stage of the thinking process, the ENFP gets let in at the N-stage. She becomes part of his life. And it goes like this:

    - ENFP and INTJ trade intuitions, riffing on possibilities.
    - ENFP and INTJ balance each other on thinking and feeling, exciting each other with their support
    - ENFP and INTJ engage in end-stage activities together, the ENFP being somewhat conservative in Si-mode and the INTJ being somewhat immaturely wild in Se-mode.
    - they divorce after a few years.

    Why? Because there's still that in-the-moment conflict. At the intuition stage Ni still gets over-whelmed with the sheer needless amount of tangential material to bat away from the ENFP, and either way focuses hard so the ENFP is always getting ideas knocked back. And down at the end stage stuff, there's still the Ne vs Se conflict because Si didn't last that long up against Se and all the in-the-momentness of it called Ne out to not-play.

    All up, because there's the thinking feeling exchange, it's a situation that the ENFP can derive enough satisfaction from that she'll stick it out for several years. And during those years a sense of confinement and restriction will be a source of growing, unvoiced resentment. Eventually she'll have to be free. And the INTJ? Well, it depends how much of the INTJ's money the ENFP spent during those years.

    Does an ISTJ do this crap any better? He's not supposed to, is he? ISTJ and ENFP get to negotiate in the middle of the story, do we do it the traditional way I know well or do we do it the unlikely and colorful new way you think might work. They get screwed if either the ISTJ really doesn't know anything about responding to feeling and/or the ENFP really doesn't know anything about planning.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #117
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    ^NFP with 10 years of INTJ. Personally, I admire and love both Te and Se. NiTe makes me Si feel safe and FiSe fuels my NeFi with its passion and let's it play. Besides, he's adorable when he goes all macho and executing
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #118
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^INFP with 20+ years of ESTJ. Personally I love both Te and Se too

  9. #119
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I voice naught but the long-range conceptualizations of a single man.


    And "single" has a convenient double meaning there.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #120
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Why? Because there's still that in-the-moment conflict. At the intuition stage Ni still gets over-whelmed with the sheer needless amount of tangential material to bat away from the ENFP, and either way focuses hard so the ENFP is always getting ideas knocked back.
    Truth!

    While engaging in conversations with an INTJ it can be frustrating for us ENFPs who want to dissect and explore several avenues/pathways, (yes, you can call them tangents), that come up during the dialogue.

    Diaphanous Ni is on some delicate course that seems to be bombarded and distracted by hyper-inquisitive Ne. <-- I dunno if this makes sense to others but it makes sense to me. :/

    Ne wants references, and seeks orientation.

    Ne asks why and wants ideogrammatic answers.

    Ne wants to probe as it peels.

    Ne is interested in a layer of life, at a time, while Ni is interested in some pointed microcosm.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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