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  1. #1101
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I stand by the way I think, but it was wrong to attack your credibility. Do you agree that its wrong to attack others credibility?
    Clearly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made an issue of it.

    And don't flip this around to be about Fi. The two areas are not directly comparable.

  2. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Clearly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made an issue of it.

    And don't flip this around to be about Fi. The two areas are not directly comparable.
    Of course not, its about Ti

    edit: and in all honesty I wasnt taking it down that Fi road intentionally.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #1103
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    One last thing, which I want to take out of the context of prior discussions and have it in its own context: the source of NiTe arrogance. It may be difficult to believe, but INTJs are really very unsure of themselves, we lack confidence, and in general would really rather hang back and be unobtrusive and observe and learn. The INTJ is very afraid of saying something wrong. Yet, Ni eventually comes to understand certain things very well. Extremely well, even. The INTJ becomes a true expert. (Immature INTJs can believe that one is an expert when it is far from the truth ... that's a different matter, that does not contradict the point I am making here.) For those things in which the INTJ is a true expert, a different personae appears, however briefly, when an issue to which the expertise pertains arises. We just know we are correct, our knowledge and understanding has been tested, perhaps for years or even decades. We also know what we do not know, and we don't make assertions on that.
    What is this persona in function speak? How are you certain the idea is correct? What do you measure it's validity by?

    EXTPs appear to measure the validity of our Xi feelings/ideas by our Si history of feeling/idea deployment.

    When you carry on ideas and conversations in your head-with Ni-does the other person speak as well? It sounds like they involve Te being deployed internally in an Ni intuition? I ask as I think ENFPs do something kinda like this, but backwards wrt to Fi-Si constructs.

  4. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Clearly. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made an issue of it.

    And don't flip this around to be about Fi. The two areas are not directly comparable.
    The whole reason I started this was because you inadvertently killed the credibility of internal logic itself with the bolded statement. I simply turned your logic in on itself until it imploded. Next time I will call you out in a PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So for xxTPs, when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNTPs who manipulate abstractions externally (theories, inventions, legal arguments) to justify an internal conception, and the xSTPs who manipulate objects externally (sports, combat, social interactions) to justify an internal conception.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #1105
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The whole reason I started this was because you inadvertently killed the credibility of internal logic itself with the bolded statement. I simply turned your logic in on itself until it imploded. Next time I will call you out in a PM.
    No you didn't. You're interpreting it in a way that discredits me, because you don't view me as a credible commentator on this. That's fine. That doesn't mean what I said was invalid. What you're not realizing is that the internal logic structure may not be wrong. That the variables have to be manipulated, because they're rotated in the wrong position in the first place! Do you finish a puzzle by maintaining all the pieces in the position they come out of the box? Of course not. You manipulate the pieces! In much the same way, Ne and Se bring an image of what the goal is into their head. Ti figures out how to manipulate the puzzle pieces of reality to bring that image into fruition. This can be very concrete (athletics, hunting), or very abstract (engineering, theory).

    Get it now?

  6. #1106
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    What is this persona in function speak? How are you certain the idea is correct? What do you measure it's validity by?

    EXTPs appear to measure the validity of our Xi feelings/ideas by our Si history of feeling/idea deployment.

    When you carry on ideas and conversations in your head-with Ni-does the other person speak as well? It sounds like they involve Te being deployed internally in an Ni intuition? I ask as I think ENFPs do something kinda like this, but backwards wrt to Fi-Si constructs.
    It's still Ni/Te, but the difference is where before understanding had not yet been achieved, now one has achieved understanding, to the point that we're rather sure that we're not incorrect. Also to clarify, I'm not talking about stating half-assed opinions for the sake of argument, but rather such a full and deep understanding that when one says something, others are surprised at the depth of knowledge in play, and are either amazed at the accuracy and insight or are intimidated by it. Like watching a figure skater at the Olympics, what you don't see is all the days/weeks/months of effort that went into being able to do that, you don't see all the effort, the raw experience, skill and training, that the INTJ put into his statement.

    Moreover, the INTJ is stating that which is obvious to him. He did all the hard work a long while ago, when you weren't looking, and now it is time to act, bringing that "J" into play. The idea was tested over and over and over, in his head and in real world observations, and then was carefully stored as an Ni functional pattern (functional is in the kind of idea, not Jungian function). That "in his head" testing is sort of the "inner conversation" thing you mention, but more accurately it's running multiple scenarios, in a "quality assurance" kind of way. We keep trying out ideas and discarding the ones that "don't work." Again, it's all functional ... it isn't about true/false, but workable/unworkable. Does the plan get me from point A to point B, for example. The few ideas that get past this test, are tested against the real world.

    So by the time he's talking about it, the idea or plan or whatever has already existed a long while, except it's stored in Ni, not Si (as would be the case for ISTJ). When he explains it, he doesn't have to figure out how to explain it, because it's already been tossed back and forth between Ni and Te for a while. He's explained it to himself many times already, and edited it so that is clear and understandable, especially if it requires explaining to others.

    So it isn't a different Jungian function rearing its head, it's the same ones as before, only now it's in play. Perhaps your observations w/r to Se might apply, that once it is time to present the idea to others, Se gives the INTJ a great deal of presence that he doesn't normally have. He is now about being active and doing things and executing the plan, not discussing or debating. I imagine that many others, for whom the plan or issue might appear to be very new, will resent the manner of presentation and find it overbearing, feeling like they have little say, because the INTJ has already answered all of their objections in his head, long ago (he thought of the objections first!). Hence, the arrogance.

  7. #1107
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Togetherness is a thing of beauty, a gift regardless of how we choose to describe it in our jungian terms.

    Our words, our thoughts, our eyes, our hands, our ways of showing love will differ, our minds, our souls, how we see the world and what we choose to become in it, what part we play in our theoretical realities will endlessly confuse us...

    however the end result- to not be alone on our paths, to be part of something larger, to hold each other against the dark night,

    these are our common destinations.


  8. #1108
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    If anyone is interested, I started a new thread! I tried to put in everyones comments, I hope I got them all...

  9. #1109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Togetherness is a thing of beauty, a gift regardless of how we choose to describe it in our jungian terms.

    Our words, our thoughts, our eyes, our hands, our ways of showing love will differ, our minds, our souls, how we see the world and what we choose to become in it, what part we play in our theoretical realities will endlessly confuse us...

    however the end result- to not be alone on our paths, to be part of something larger, to hold each other against the dark night,

    these are our common destinations.

    You are so beautiful!!!

  10. #1110
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    How are you certain the idea is correct? What do you measure it's validity by?
    It's not an idea, it's an intuition. And that intuition is cultivated in an extraverted thinking environment. The measure then is not validity so much as, "will this be real?"

    Validity is for those suckers still hamstrung by the subjectivity of truth.



    That perhaps answers the question of how one can be certain too: here's the intuition, where's the framework, there it is, where's the subjectivity, there isn't any, good to know, go for it.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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