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  1. #101
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    You have a point there, State. About indeed having a try rather than resting up too long inside the intuition.



    Meanwhile, IRL I saw that same guy twice yesterday. See him? He's back again today. You see him too, don't you? What's up with that?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #102
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You have a point there, State. About indeed having a try rather than resting up too long inside the intuition.
    the key to secondary /sp is to begin to believe that you won't self-destruct. that you can face the worst, and that the worst is rarely as the worst as it is in your own mind, your own deepest fears, your own nightmares.

    yet the enfp feeling of lifting you up and getting you going and then leaving feels like those abandoned buildings past tijuana as you go further down into baja mexico. just capital failures. didn't really care to invest so much. for a mercurial, moody, iconoclastic 5w4 sx/sp, who believes most ardently in his own vision of the world, his own aesthetic and intellectual uniqueness, who has been rather dissatisfied with most of his previous relationship experiences and FINALLY opened up and started to let go, this feels like falling off a cliff.

    i think the ability to take responsibility for your fall, however, to accept it and learn that it does not have to kill you (tho it is a form of death and something absolutely dies), would probably be the most freeing feeling in all the world. but that doesn't change the fuck you i'd feel to the rejector.

    i'd refer now to the of montreal song "the past is a grotesque animal" and perhaps "she's a rejecter" and perhaps more generally to all of hissing fauna and other destroyers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Meanwhile, IRL I saw that same guy twice yesterday. See him? He's back again today. You see him too, don't you? What's up with that?
    of course, he's waving at me with his gold-capped teeth and his missing left-handed ring finger.

  3. #103
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waffle View Post
    After much back reading I will continue my search for nice INTJs (It seems there are quite a few in my thread!), and I just had the misfortune of stumbling across the type's ... less courteous members.
    Hey, I'm one of the nice ones. Seriously.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case葉hen it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. 傍homas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  4. #104
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post
    Hey, I'm one of the nice ones. Seriously.
    "To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid--you must also be well-mannered."

    --Voltaire
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #105
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    "To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid--you must also be well-mannered."

    --Voltaire
    So you're one down, one to go, champ. Hang in there, I know you can do it.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case葉hen it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. 傍homas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  6. #106
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Does introverted intuition have a parallel limitation? Probably something like Ni is really poor at extracting the meaning of past events for it doesn't count them as real anymore.
    Ni's proportional limitation is that it can't decide which of its extracted meanings actually applies to anything real. It gets caught up in questioning the unconscious bias in its perception of its own bias and ends up in an infinite loop of possible meanings, completely detached from the real world and immobilized by its own inability to ever gain a totally unbiased perspective free from any built-in assumptions.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #107
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ni's proportional limitation is that it can't decide which of its extracted meanings actually applies to anything real. It gets caught up in questioning the unconscious bias in its perception of its own bias and ends up in an infinite loop of possible meanings, completely detached from the real world and immobilized by its own inability to ever gain a totally unbiased perspective free from any built-in assumptions.
    Nahbutsee, I wasn't claiming Ne had a destructive limitation. Just a limitation, namely that it needs a sense of the past and the external present to operate. And it is on those things that it does operate.

    Introverted intuition by contrast isn't bound by the past. Well, obviously, as State points out, Ni processes the past. Sorta. But so very indirectly that the past per se isn't under direct consideration at all. And the process kind of craps out if the past has to be considered directly because the past contributes nothing to today. That's to say, the past isn't subject to alteration by Je, so Ni doesn't and routinely can't be counted on to directly extract meaning. Since there is no Je focus available, Ni just doesn't give a damn. Yesterday is gone. Out of my reach.

    The nightmare scenario like the one you describe above does indeed from time to time arrive, and it would be those times when the tertiary Ji rises up to overreach the auxiliary Je. Those times, oh yeah, past times ahoy! Crushing, traumatising revisitations and pointless looping reinventions.


    WARNING: I HAVE SUSPICIONS THAT NOT ALL OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE.

    /irony.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #108
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ni's proportional limitation is that it can't decide which of its extracted meanings actually applies to anything real. It gets caught up in questioning the unconscious bias in its perception of its own bias and ends up in an infinite loop of possible meanings, completely detached from the real world and immobilized by its own inability to ever gain a totally unbiased perspective free from any built-in assumptions.

    This is so far over my head it's not even funny.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case葉hen it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. 傍homas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  9. #109
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Nahbutsee, I wasn't claiming Ne had a destructive limitation. Just a limitation, namely that it needs a sense of the past and the external present to operate. And it is on those things that it does operate.

    Introverted intuition by contrast isn't bound by the past. Well, obviously, as State points out, Ni processes the past. Sorta. But so very indirectly that the past per se isn't under direct consideration at all. And the process kind of craps out if the past has to be considered directly because the past contributes nothing to today. That's to say, the past isn't subject to alteration by Je, so Ni doesn't and routinely can't be counted on to directly extract meaning. Since there is no Je focus available, Ni just doesn't give a damn. Yesterday is gone. Out of my reach.

    The nightmare scenario like the one you describe above does indeed from time to time arrive, and it would be those times when the tertiary Ji rises up to overreach the auxiliary Je. Those times, oh yeah, past times ahoy! Crushing, traumatising revisitations and pointless looping reinventions.


    WARNING: I HAVE SUSPICIONS THAT NOT ALL OF THE ABOVE IS TRUE.

    /irony.
    I dunno--I think you've stuck some of Si's definition into Ne.

    For me, Ne often behaves recklessly without regard to the past. In fact, it sometimes repeats the same mistakes because it figures this is a new day so maybe the same thing that didn't work last time will work this time due to some unseen changing conditions.

    I don't think Ne on its own is very related to the past. Of course, all Ne users will have Si too, which will connect them to the past, but Ne itself is about changing the current environment into something new and different in the near future. Though admittedly it doesn't see as far ahead as Ni--Ne imagines a lot of different things that could potentially happen (but most of which will not) relatively soon, whereas Ni sees the one course of action that will happen over a very long time period.

    To that end, Ne definitely needs a sense of the external present in order to consider how it might be changed into something else, but how does Ne relate to the past, exactly?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #110
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I dunno--I think you've stuck some of Si's definition into Ne.
    I have! And I meant to too.

    For me, Ne often behaves recklessly without regard to the past. In fact, it sometimes repeats the same mistakes because it figures this is a new day so maybe the same thing that didn't work last time will work this time due to some unseen changing conditions.
    And that's why I deliberately linked Si and Ne. Ne needs a focuser, right? All perception functions need a focuser, and Ne has Ji. And how does Ji actually do that trick of focus long term?

    Si is sense impressions. Sense impressions serve as markers for events. Recalling the events triggers a reflective Ji. Where normally the Ji is awash with Ne inputs, now it is on solid, unmoving ground. Ji goes to work and discovers answers, not just (technically) solipsistic chains of Ji, but firmly founded chains of Ji, and thus, actual conclusions. These become "values" for the user. Ji has a firmer footing on which to evaluate Ne inputs. It, for example, becomes possible to know that Ne is often reckless with respect to the past, and now with New Improved Reflective Ji, there is a means to move forward past some of that recklessness.

    After all, what does an ENP do if they have no Si resource at all? Beyond the moment, they never conclude anything, never value anything, and never want anything except that there always be a new moment.

    Now, if New Improved Reflective Ji is at work, Ne is freed to move up a little higher in the speculation stakes. What has been fixed as "valuable" by Ji+Si becomes a building block of broader, deeper speculation.

    So, Ne is boosted by Si. (Some may wish to say Ne is curtailed by that Si, but--I speculate--that's tertiary temptation talking.)

    (]Holy Crap! Those arguments zipped by way too fast to be true, didn't they?)

    I don't think Ne on its own is very related to the past.
    Agreed.

    Of course, all Ne users will have Si too, which will connect them to the past, but Ne itself is about changing the current environment into something new and different in the near future.
    Agreed.

    Though admittedly it doesn't see as far ahead as Ni--Ne imagines a lot of different things that could potentially happen (but most of which will not) relatively soon[...]
    Agreed.

    But, and this is (part of) the hypothesis, the maturation of Si extends the vision of Ne.



    Since these arguments are sketchy and use symbols, I proffer as actual proof... well... nothing, I guess. (Sorry, Wonk.)

    I might actually not be saying anything more than, reflection upon the past helps ENPs understand more about what they value.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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