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  1. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Because MBTI isn't correlative with anything in reality, and I'm merely using its language as a template to explain my ideas on how these things work.
    This only works though when people hold its language concrete, which even something as simple as a defintion can be percieved differently across people. Sometimes you have to learn to seperate from the "external" language and jump into someone elses internal language. So while you may agree on the wording of something you may be talking about different things. Or you may disagree over wording yet both understand the same thing.

    Some people like "external" language being concrete and others try to learn the "internal" language of someone else.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #1072
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest.

    ...

    So I see potential, but somehow, romantically (i.e. with men), it's really scary. I don't know how to approach it at all. Any ideas? Or, if there's a portion of the topic that already discusses this, could somebody point me to it? I began to read through but only got to about page 10.
    Only reading up to page 10 is OK. This is what the thread is really about anyway ... we've been discussing some other tangents.

    How to approach an INTJ guy? He's more scared of you than you are of him.

    Use your strengths. Just be yourself in front of him. Trust me on this. He will totally get you. Then the hard part: you have to initiate, because he will be too scared to do so. You have to make it bluntly obvious that you like him and want to do something (lunch, a date, whatever) with him. Mostly, though, you'll get to know him because you'll be yourself in front of him, and he'll learn he can be himself in front of you. That's the attraction: as long as there are no odd cultural or value differences, it's easy for each to be into each other. INTJ loves the sparkly, quirky, interesting ENFP personality, and ENFP loves that this calm super-intellectual INTJ takes her as she is. We admire and secretly wish that we could be like the other, but we just aren't.

    So, if you have an INTJ guy in mind, and you're interested, just go and play. As long as you allow each other to be naturally ENFP and INTJ, it will work. If you start demanding that he be "more ENFP" or he tries to get you to behave "more INTJ", it will start to break down. The boundary is, I believe, best defined by what MBTI covers: it's fully OK to call the other out on bad behavior, period; it isn't OK to try to change the others' preferences to suit oneself.

  3. #1073
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    i fully agree with the above post. also, i think this particular topic deserves its own thread.
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  4. #1074
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    No, OMT. Usually, it will be the crosstalk at play. When I evaluate what you wrote in a Ti way, I see the logic, and it all fits together. When I translate into Ni/Te terms, it falls apart, especially when comparing in a Te way with empirical reality. I suspect our (that's "your and my", OMT, not Jungian functions') internal models are different enough that adequate translation is difficult. They may be in agreement, but certain turns of phrase can easily make a true statement in one model sound patently false in the other.

    Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.
    I made my statement. It's up to you to take it or leave it. If you leave it, the burden's on you at that point to tell me why. You mentioned earlier growing fatigued at when it seems like you do all the work for Ti. This is the same sort of situation. I don't want to have to do the work for you in figuring out why you disagree with what I say. I'm more interested in what you disagree with, and why you disagree with it. That you simply disagree with it is essentially useless information.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    For me its that in parts of the xxTP you propogate something I am not. Remember I am Fe, I do care somewhat about my social image and on here it has a much bigger effect then in real life. Some people like to label and have a "set" traits they apply to that label. I mentioned in one post about rose colored glasses. Labels can apply these glasses prematurely in certain people and cause a distortion based on an abstract label. Simple things like "man" and "woman" is an abstract label. So when your label is wrong in a context that tends to raise these labels up even more it does rub me the wrong way.

    /Ti rant
    Yeah... I'm looking at it with the bias that Ti generally handles abstract information in my experience. Of course it doesn't follow your experience exactly; that much should be so obvious that it isn't even worth mentioning. At that point, it's better for you, rather than accepting or rejecting it forthright, to modify what I'm saying or add your experiential understanding to it, because for me, it absolutely is true. I understand that it may not be true for you. To say that I'm wrong is to accuse me of lying to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    This only works though when people hold its language concrete, which even something as simple as a defintion can be percieved differently across people. Sometimes you have to learn to seperate from the "external" language and jump into someone elses internal language. So while you may agree on the wording of something you may be talking about different things. Or you may disagree over wording yet both understand the same thing.

    Some people like "external" language being concrete and others try to learn the "internal" language of someone else.
    It doesn't work that way. I'm not speaking to an individual on an open thread. I'm speaking to that person and everyone else who reads this thread. Trying to speak that person's internal language in that context would be incomprehensible to everyone else reading the thread, making my post essentially useless. I'll be happy to personalize my approach in a PM or other non-public forum, but in threads, I'm going to talk as if I'm addressing the world... because I am.

  5. #1075
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    He's more scared of you than you are of him.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    INTJ loves the sparkly, quirky, interesting ENFP personality...
    Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


    I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.

  6. #1076
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    When we're young, our Ni probably comes out as slack-jawed unawareness of the world around us. But there's something else going on, too. We have all of these thoughts and musings going on, sort of planning, sort of daydreaming, sort of hypothesizing. And we react to them as if they were "real." This sends out all sorts of false emotional signals because we're not reacting to the outer world, but the inner world.
    Ah at INTJc they talked about actually sometimes making facial gestures and such. And whole conversations with yourselves?

    Also-what is your typical perspective of ISTJs? My favorite ISTJ just got utterly screwed via the judgment of an INTJ. Trying to understand why.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest. I have a couple INTJ women friends, and I love them dearly. They see and understand parts of me like nobody else seems to be able to, and I love them like I love no one else because of that.

    What boondocked described, that - as Alanis Morissette would say - intellectual intercourse, actually sounds so wonderful. Sigh...
    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    i fully agree with the above post. also, i think this particular topic deserves its own thread.
    Ahhhh intellectual intercourse!!! See digest-that's what we are up to in this thread. It's better than online sex. I find it delightful. (I miss your little smoking girl avatar.) Gromit you might try online INTJ chatting. At INTJc, they say they are more talkative online then in real life. And yes they can handle our emo quite well. Total honesty?? I think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.
    There is something very legitimate here. You have to just hold my hand and trust me, I cant convince you of the below, just explain my observations and have you understand they may be highly subjective.

    I cheated with Fe when I was terribly depressed and found myself terribly flawed. I found I could find Fe. Not just brush it or use it in a shadow sense but really deeply fall into it and quench Fi. I spent a couple of weeks doing this. I could do it now if I tried-meaning actual hard work honestly, like 30 minutes of meditation-but it makes me a different person. I JUDGE things differently. The world looks different.

    One thing I noticed. When conversing with Fe users my mind would use different sets of words-very soft pleasing words, group words. I didnt decide to do this-it just happened. But at the end of each sentence I would complete the thought in my head and ascribe motivations or harsher judgments to the person talking. "Spoken: Now we will all work as a team (Unspoken: Because bob didnt really complete his work)"

    With Fe users this works amazingly well. Suddenly I felt like I was hearing pieces of conversations I had never heard before. It was really nice to "fit in" and not feel like I was a social outcast. I "understood" the unspoken social rules.

    Once while playing with Fe I found myself talking to an ISTJ at work. Good guy.

    He was talking to me about my best friend. He said " Well SL has a list of things to do and really needs to get to work on that project" In my mind I found myself completing his sentence with a very harsh judgment "because she is incompetent at her job". I started to internally become very cold towards him and withdraw (the Fe shrug)-then realized the issue. I Fe'd into his phrase. He, as an ISTJ, said EXACTLY what he meant. I read motive into his phrasing which was more harsh than his spoken words.

    This is so subjective and so cheated that I cant assume it it is a universal thing-but the observations felt very real.

    Fe users always comment that ENFPs Ne into the emo states of others-part of this is not being able to see/hear these unspoken Fe conversations, yet picking up on subtle signs that we are missing some vital component of the conversation. We will jump to assuming the worst.

    I think INTJs never even know they missed anything-thus plow forward.

  7. #1077
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


    I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.
    If you have no idea what to do with an INTJ, say most insane ridiculous goofy thing you can think of, then look them full on, smile and just let yourself glow with love, then giggle. They just stop and stare....

    Keep in mind you then are stuck loving them as you cant give Fi like that without actually making an Fi connection. As a result i love all the INTJs I have ever met. Not like sexually, like as in real love and caring.

    All my IRL INTJs are women or married men, so never had a relationship with one, just loved them all. They are the only ones who get to see unbridled Fi.

  8. #1078
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Well, I don't know why, but it's really difficult for me to believe this. Probably on some level I can conceive of it, but I just can't seem to wrap my mind/self around it entirely. I would just imagine that "he" (since there is no specific one right now, though a couple have caught my attention in the past) would have no use for someone like me, would see me as a purely fluffy sparkles person, or would want someone who isn't such a spaz, emotionally or in terms of thought processes, even. I am a thoughtful and intelligent person, but I just also like fun things and silly things and even dumb things.


    I don't know... it's easy to tell yourself to just be yourself, but it's really difficult to do when it's a situation that is intimidating.
    That's what's magical about it. You don't quite believe it can be true, but it is.

    Keep in mind, this is a generic template of a dynamic, in that "this is how it happens, when it happens." There are ENFPs who don't particularly like me, and there are others who do. There's always more at play. But when you do like each other, the dynamic is as I describe.

    The reason I tell you to be yourself is that being yourself is the only way you can see if it works. If you can't "be yourself," you really don't have a relationship, do you? It'd just be a mutual fascination society, as you both declare "love" for one another, but hold yourselves back.

    So, be yourself (within reason, I'm assuming public interactions to start with). If it doesn't work out, you lose nothing. (It isn't as if he was the love of your life beforehand - you don't know him, yet.) If it works out, you have everything to gain. It seems kind of harsh, since it's scary to let yourself be yourself, but that's how you get from point A to point B. It's one of those fears that is worth facing down.

    Now, I can understand why you don't believe it could be true. You have this super-serious INTJ - what the heck would he want with a silly person like you? That's why this thread exists: it's one of those matches that seems impossible, but it isn't. Really, deep down, you aren't that silly. You are in fact judging yourself by some very serious standards, if your opinion of yourself is that you're silly. And an INTJ, really, deep down, is silly, and he's hiding that fact from everyone around him, because he let out his silliness as he grew up and determined that he didn't like how people reacted to it.

    The real key is that you are both serious AND silly in the same way. It's hard to describe, but that's where the "Fe/Ti vs Te/Fi" posts are coming from - because the same dynamic doesn't happen between INTJs and ENFJs or ENTPs, for example. There is an essential way of looking at the world that ENFP and INTJ both share, but they approach it from opposite ends: ENFP the emotional side, and INTJ the intellectual side. The ENFP "serious side" is very akin to the INTJ's normal mode. The INTJ's "silly side" is very akin to the ENFP's normal mode.

  9. #1079
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Ah at INTJc they talked about actually sometimes making facial gestures and such. And whole conversations with yourselves?
    That's basically the deal. I think your Se insight is key ... we can be in our Ni world, totally, and Se shows our reactions to it for all the world to see. It's one reason we get so tired, socially. Randomly saying things, laughing at jokes one makes to oneself, and all of that just doesn't play well in the real world. Alone, or with those we trust, we can let it flow, but in public, the self-control has to snap into place, because we don't want to be regarded as silly or crazy.


    Also-what is your typical perspective of ISTJs? My favorite ISTJ just got utterly screwed via the judgment of an INTJ. Trying to understand why.
    I find that they're easy to get along with, in a nice predictable way. I don't think I've ever had any such person in a position to give me trouble, so I don't have a list of things I don't like about the type. To me, they seem like INTJs at first glance, and then I have to delve to determine S/N.


    There is something very legitimate here. You have to just hold my hand and trust me, I cant convince you of the below, just explain my observations and have you understand they may be highly subjective.

    I cheated with Fe when I was terribly depressed and found myself terribly flawed. I found I could find Fe. Not just brush it or use it in a shadow sense but really deeply fall into it and quench Fi. I spent a couple of weeks doing this. I could do it now if I tried-meaning actual hard work honestly, like 30 minutes of meditation-but it makes me a different person. I JUDGE things differently. The world looks different.

    One thing I noticed. When conversing with Fe users my mind would use different sets of words-very soft pleasing words, group words. I didnt decide to do this-it just happened. But at the end of each sentence I would complete the thought in my head and ascribe motivations or harsher judgments to the person talking. "Spoken: Now we will all work as a team (Unspoken: Because bob didnt really complete his work)"

    With Fe users this works amazingly well. Suddenly I felt like I was hearing pieces of conversations I had never heard before. It was really nice to "fit in" and not feel like I was a social outcast. I "understood" the unspoken social rules.

    Once while playing with Fe I found myself talking to an ISTJ at work. Good guy.

    He was talking to me about my best friend. He said " Well SL has a list of things to do and really needs to get to work on that project" In my mind I found myself completing his sentence with a very harsh judgment "because she is incompetent at her job". I started to internally become very cold towards him and withdraw (the Fe shrug)-then realized the issue. I Fe'd into his phrase. He, as an ISTJ, said EXACTLY what he meant. I read motive into his phrasing which was more harsh than his spoken words.

    This is so subjective and so cheated that I cant assume it it is a universal thing-but the observations felt very real.

    Fe users always comment that ENFPs Ne into the emo states of others-part of this is not being able to see/hear these unspoken Fe conversations, yet picking up on subtle signs that we are missing some vital component of the conversation. We will jump to assuming the worst.

    I think INTJs never even know they missed anything-thus plow forward.
    Yes, very often, INTJs never even know they missed anything. Very very true. Even weirder for us is when we serendipitously do something "right", and we never quite know what it was ...

    These days, I can read Fe signals, but I suspect it's all Te on my part, picking it up, and deriving general "objective" rules of politeness based on success and failure. In general, I focus on projecting positive emotions with Fi, which Fe appears to read as sincere good intentions. One thing I've noticed is that, in person, xxFJ gets along with me very well, if not always buddy-buddy. In only my very closest relationships (my brother, my ex-wife, both ESFJ) has it been difficult, and I think that's the N vs S aggravating the Te/Fe divide. My Mom was INFJ and we always got along. My best friend of many years is INFJ, and we "just get each other."

    Online, however, it's a different story, especially on forums (and on "usenet newsgroups" back in the old days). I suspect that the online environment cripples much of the tools of Fe, so the good vibes I'm usually sending out don't get received, so if a statement of mine could be interpreted as an affront based on words alone, it is more likely to be thus interpreted.

  10. #1080
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?
    This is where I should tap into Si and reassure you with lengthy concrete descriptions and caring facial expressions that, don't worry so much, the world really does exist.

    But I'll plow forward with some, well, I'll call it logic:

    The particular part of the earlier thesis I noticed was the suggestion that Te is used to impose something on external variables. Te efforts are rightly called an imposition if all truth is subjective. If, like all e functions are supposed to be, it is, or aims to be, objective, then Te efforts are better called conclusions. But if Te isn't objective, indeed if as it seemed you were suggesting, all i functions either end up or just are more important than e functions, all e functions must fail to be objective, either some of the time, or all of the time, owing to the primacy of all i subjectivity.

    That means your Ne too. And your Fe. That social order you've been perceiving? It isn't there. And while I'm happy to be free of that, the cost is too high because not only is the social order not there, the world isn't either. And that subjectivity of the i functions is so totally justified it doesn't need to be questioned anymore. Except that [etc and so on and philosophical arguments about the nature of reality].

    Do e functions access an objective reality? If they do, then individuals sticking too hard to an i subjectivity are making a mistake. And further to that, if e functions do access an objective reality, then sticking to an i subjectivity is OKAY!!! Where, if it's a judging i, did that i function get its data? Where did a perceiving i gets its structured conclusions?

    But if e functions don't generally access an objective reality, then [insert Wittgenstein's Private Language Argument, or whatever modern variation actually works] and don't worry anyway.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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