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  1. #1061
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    How do I know how you are manipulating MBTI to prove your internal logic?

    Yes, you hit a button.
    Because MBTI isn't correlative with anything in reality, and I'm merely using its language as a template to explain my ideas on how these things work.

  2. #1062
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm talking about the speed at which Xi processes something new vs the speed at which Xe processes something new.

    Yes, for INTJ, Ni "gets there first", and for an INTP Ti is "instantaneous" in cases where the knowledge is already correct and there are no conflicts.

    In conflict resolution, the Xi function is always slower at resolving the issue than Xe, because the Xi function has to do something other than the "same old same old." Database analogy: I can run existing queries quickly, but it takes me a while to write a new query.
    When I said Ti was instantaneous, I meant that a preliminary logical framework is already thrown together at the start. It's constantly reworked as new information comes in. Remember, Ti cares about whether it works or not, and not so much whether it's true/correct or not. Conflict resolution.

  3. #1063
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    This is kinda where I sit. I have no drive to be part of the social hierarchy, but enjoy the challenge of attemping to topple the strong. Its not done to move up in the ladder, but to make sure the person that is trying to put himself on top deserves to be on top. I am generally the person in the background waiting for someone to challenge. I enjoy the challenge, not to win, but for the experience and the knowledge I get.
    ISTPa strike me as the ultimate hunter. It makes sense that you would endlessly challenge the other hunters to sharpen skill sets. The other comments you said about wanting to help as well-I see those in my istp. It is of great significance I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What does Se "look like" to you in an INTJ?
    What does Ne "look like" to you in an ISTJ?
    Another diff-something about the eyes-not the direction-the muscle use around the eyes.

    Ne is usually in outer space just starring off at nothing. Si is watching you but really looking inside. Ni is slack jawed absentness and Se is actually watching you.

    An ISTJ looks at you, but is really looking inside at Si-thus the eyes are softer-even if they are trying to dominate via Te.
    An INTJ uses lots of TeSe, thus looks very dominating much of the time AT YOU. The gaze is much more intense, and can be taken as angry.
    An INTJ looks at you with Se

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've put together some thoughts on Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti, based on our discussions here and first principles. This is still hypothesis, but it seems to fit in with prior observations.

    Fi:
    ego is emotion
    processes feelings slowly

    Ti:
    ego is intellect
    processes ideas slowly

    "slowly" != stupid or inept, but rather slowly == carefully
    ego == how easily one may feel "attacked" by disagreement (in the realm of that judging function) So Fi will never feel attacked by logic, but only by values/emotion. Analogously, Ti will feel attacked by disrespect for one's ability to reason, and not by emotion/values. In both cases, Je handles the other judging style "objectively", and while disagreements may occur, they "don't feel like attacks".
    Just for those poor folks still hanging on the thread looking for INTJ:ENFP advice-Ne doms seek social affirmation. We are offering out "gift", our ideas or our feelings back to the other. To reject the emotional offering of an ENFP or reject the ability to create new ideas for an ENTP is agonizing and a very nasty blow.

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    on a side note, its fun to watch an Fi user try to protect Fi that doesnt exist on the other end, its revealing
    We are just trying to take care of you!!! Your Fe reminds me a bit of my Fi-it's a bit like a little kid's. It doesnt play all of the games a grown up Fe does. It brings out my nurturing side.

  4. #1064
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna View Post
    Is this TRUE????

    No. But I'm not sure why. Something about OMT applying across the board the values inherent in any Ti system, namely that all truth is subjective. The application of this value is being made too broadly. Broadly enough in fact that likely under this regime, e functions don't actually exist. (Well, they do, but as a veil of images and sensations thrown up before the "eyes" of consciousness, not as actual direct(ish) links to a real world.)


    Or something.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #1065
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    No. But I'm not sure why. Something about OMT applying across the board the values inherent in any Ti system, namely that all truth is subjective. The application of this value is being made too broadly. Broadly enough in fact that likely under this regime, e functions don't actually exist. (Well, they do, but as a veil of images and sensations thrown up before the "eyes" of consciousness, not as actual direct(ish) links to a real world.)


    Or something.
    Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?

  6. #1066
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    No. But I'm not sure why. Something about OMT applying across the board the values inherent in any Ti system, namely that all truth is subjective. The application of this value is being made too broadly. Broadly enough in fact that likely under this regime, e functions don't actually exist. (Well, they do, but as a veil of images and sensations thrown up before the "eyes" of consciousness, not as actual direct(ish) links to a real world.)


    Or something.
    In other words, Kalach is saying that OMT is phrasing what he says in "Fe/Ti language", for lack of better better way to describe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?
    No, OMT. Usually, it will be the crosstalk at play. When I evaluate what you wrote in a Ti way, I see the logic, and it all fits together. When I translate into Ni/Te terms, it falls apart, especially when comparing in a Te way with empirical reality. I suspect our (that's "your and my", OMT, not Jungian functions') internal models are different enough that adequate translation is difficult. They may be in agreement, but certain turns of phrase can easily make a true statement in one model sound patently false in the other.

    Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.

  7. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    ISTPa strike me as the ultimate hunter. It makes sense that you would endlessly challenge the other hunters to sharpen skill sets. The other comments you said about wanting to help as well-I see those in my istp. It is of great significance I think.
    I have had this wanting to help since I was little. I realized young that I cannot help everyone with the problem at hand and that sometimes if you can just get them to enjoy themselves and do what will allow people to relax it helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    We are just trying to take care of you!!! Your Fe reminds me a bit of my Fi-it's a bit like a little kid's. It doesnt play all of the games a grown up Fe does. It brings out my nurturing side.
    I refuse to play those adult games unless I have to, I do like playing different mind games with people though. I have no desire to grow up, life is about having fun. To many grown ups stuck in a rut trying to find a purpose and a drive. Kids are like sponges, when we grow up we have this drive to be thought as "knowledgable" and we can easily push an image and lose the sponge like mentality. We have this drive to grow up and knowledge is a "marker" of being a grown up. When we dont feel knowledgable we dont feel like we are of use in society and causes us to try to find our calling. I enjoy being a sponge, knowledge is just a side affect I dont have an "idealist" mentality so I leverage others ideals and wants to give me direction in what I learn.

    In regards to Fe heirarchy, the only times it really bothers me is when I lose my image to the point of being shunned by it, I dont care where I sit. I am known for who I am and what I do on a personal level, not by where I sit in this heirarchy. That is my image that I push for, not a societal image.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is it untrue, or does it possibly being true bother you?
    For me its that in parts of the xxTP you propogate something I am not. Remember I am Fe, I do care somewhat about my social image and on here it has a much bigger effect then in real life. Some people like to label and have a "set" traits they apply to that label. I mentioned in one post about rose colored glasses. Labels can apply these glasses prematurely in certain people and cause a distortion based on an abstract label. Simple things like "man" and "woman" is an abstract label. So when your label is wrong in a context that tends to raise these labels up even more it does rub me the wrong way.

    /Ti rant
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #1068
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I usually find myself dating men who are more like INFJ/ISFJ (?) or something, and it usally ends up terribly. We both end up getting really needy and angst-y and insecure.

    Part of me would really like to try dating INTJ men, and part of me suspects that this is the only type of person who could withstand the full emotional and intellectual force of my being. I am always feeling like I need to hold back. However, if I have ever known any (INTJ men), I have felt too intimidated to approach them or even show any interest. I have a couple INTJ women friends, and I love them dearly. They see and understand parts of me like nobody else seems to be able to, and I love them like I love no one else because of that.

    So I see potential, but somehow, romantically (i.e. with men), it's really scary. I don't know how to approach it at all. Any ideas? Or, if there's a portion of the topic that already discusses this, could somebody point me to it? I began to read through but only got to about page 10.


    What boondocked described, that - as Alanis Morissette would say - intellectual intercourse, actually sounds so wonderful. Sigh...

    Quote Originally Posted by boondocked View Post
    I loved his brilliant, idiosyncratic brain, the fascinating bends and turns of it. I loved how precise it was, whereas my brain is so wishy washy and impressionistic. And he made me laugh harder than anyone ever had. He was just so bright, so sharp. He liked my abstractions and theories and how I expressed myself, from the way I phrased things to my over-emotive facial expressions :rolli: We both just found the whole thing unbelievably exciting

  9. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Also notice how your reply is phrased. You don't ask how it's unclear, or express an interest in how Kalach is interpreting it ... you instead ascribe to Kalach a motivation to not want it to be true. That kind of language is a good example of what does not translate well into Te/Fi terms, and can lead to unconstructive disagreement because it violates Fi boundaries.
    From a Ti standpoint his wording or the way he went about it didnt bother me because its wrong and he is jumping to conclusions. Ti prickly, we use this sometimes to bring out truth. I see how this is used and I choose if I want to reply or not. The trick is to hit someone in a way they dont want to be percieved. Its fun when someone tries this in a manner you dont care about. Or in a manner that is obviously not who you are.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #1070
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Another diff-something about the eyes-not the direction-the muscle use around the eyes.

    Ne is usually in outer space just starring off at nothing. Si is watching you but really looking inside. Ni is slack jawed absentness and Se is actually watching you.

    An ISTJ looks at you, but is really looking inside at Si-thus the eyes are softer-even if they are trying to dominate via Te.
    An INTJ uses lots of TeSe, thus looks very dominating much of the time AT YOU. The gaze is much more intense, and can be taken as angry.
    An INTJ looks at you with Se
    Interesting. I like how you've analyzed the INTJ "death stare." I'll need to think about it for a bit. I think the key is, as you point out, Si vs Se, that the INTJ is more likely to be "present" in his gaze.

    The funny thing is, we don't realize we're doing it, most of the time:
    "Why are you so angry?!"
    "I'm not angry."
    "Yes you are. And you're staring at me."
    "I am? Sorry. But no, I'm not angry. I'm just thinking."
    "What are you thinking about that is making you so angry?"
    "I'm not angry. I'm just working out a problem in my head. I'm not angry. Scratch that, you're starting to make me angry ..."
    The main thing I've noticed that is common is that INTJs as a rule have schooled themselves not to emote, because of exchanges like the above. When we're young, our Ni probably comes out as slack-jawed unawareness of the world around us. But there's something else going on, too. We have all of these thoughts and musings going on, sort of planning, sort of daydreaming, sort of hypothesizing. And we react to them as if they were "real." This sends out all sorts of false emotional signals because we're not reacting to the outer world, but the inner world.

    As you note, the result isn't "slack jawed" Ni but "fully present" Se. That's because we're focusing very hard on not reacting to anything, because 90% of the time, we'd just react to what's in our head (Ni), and express it outwardly (Se). I suspect that angry/focused/dominating stare is simply the outward expression of the inner focus not to say anything stupid.

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