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  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The reverse is true, too. It suddenly makes more sense to me that it's Ti being prickly for the other person.

    The cool thing is that if I can realize that it's Ti being prickly soon enough, I can adjust, and you may be able to extend a similar courtesy to Fi.

    This seems to be very parallel to the "Five Love Languages". I wonder if any particular "love language" is strongly associated with Ti or Fi.
    If I know the person I have a much easier time controlling my prickly. Its hard though when Ti gets out in the open as my prickles can hit people I didnt intend to hit. I like one-on-one because of this. Everyone is at different levels of prickly.

    Any initial thoughts on the love language thing?
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #1052
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    For Te/Fi, if something is hurting Fi, Te steps in as a shield, and suddenly nothing is about feelings, feelings are irrelevant, and logic and reason are paramount. Fi can't process the feelings fast enough, Te steps in, whether to delay or simply stop the "attack." "Oh, no no no, my choice is based on solely logical considerations, no, you didn't hurt my feelings, I just have a job to do." And so on. Te tries to explain it all in terms of logical process, and ignores the role feelings play.

    This is so instinctive for Te/Fi that one often believes one's own lies, especially if Te is the stronger. There is often a lack of awareness of the role of Fi in such cases.

    For Fe/Ti, it the same, but reversed. If something is hurting Ti, if one's intellect is directly challenged, Fe steps in and suddenly, logic is irrelevant, and feelings/motivations/values are paramount. Ti can't process the logic fast enough, so Fe steps in, to delay or stop the "attack." Often Fe will question others' motivations for provoking a challenge, whether aggressively (by accusation) or more constructively (by asking whether the other is feeling OK, and if something is wrong). Fe tries to explain it all in terms of social interaction, and ignores the role of logical analysis.

    Both of these are stress cases, and usually don't come into play otherwise: Je enters in defense of Ji, because Ji for the moment is not as capable in the active context. In fact, it often appears that in Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti conflicts, Ti perceives Te as attacking one's own ability to logically reason, and Fi perceives Fe as attacking one's own values and willingness to care. In a way, the Ji usage perceives the fight, Ji is abandoned, and Je steps in to fill the functional vacuum. The key characteristic of this kind of Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti conflict is that one side is very aware of the cause of conflict, while the other is often clueless or only vaguely aware. The Ji reaction is very visceral, such that one feels it should be obvious to the other that a line has been crossed, but each others' internal wiring is different enough that it is not obvious to the other.
    Not exactly. The dominant/auxiliary introverted function is the inside persona. The dom/aux extraverted function is the outside persona. Whether you're drawn to your interior or exterior persona is an inherent distinction.

    So for xxTPs, when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNTPs who manipulate abstractions externally (theories, inventions, legal arguments) to justify an internal conception, and the xSTPs who manipulate objects externally (sports, combat, social interactions) to justify an internal conception.

    For xxFPs, when their emotions are questioned, they'll use their extraverted perceiving functions to manipulate the variables to justify that emotion, while being less inclined to dismiss the emotion itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNFPs who manipulate abstractions externally (causes, social movements, other's feelings) to justify an internal feeling, and the xSFPs who manipulate objects (art, music, their bodies) to justify an internal feeling.

    For xSxJs, when their memories are questioned, they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that memory, while being less inclined to dismiss the memory itself. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xSTJs who manipulate the external environment (tradition, structures, text) to confirm their memory, and the xSFJs who manipulate other people (tradition, social hierarchies, relationships) to confirm their memory.

    For xNxJs, when their internal vision is questioned (which it pretty much always is), they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that vision. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xNTJs who manipulate the external environment (subordinates, objects, structures) to confirm their vision, and the xNFJs who manipulate other people (advice, persuasion, politics) to confirm their vision.

  3. #1053
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not exactly. The dominant/auxiliary introverted function is the inside persona. The dom/aux extraverted function is the outside persona. Whether you're drawn to your interior or exterior persona is an inherent distinction.

    So for xxTPs, when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNTPs who manipulate abstractions externally (theories, inventions, legal arguments) to justify an internal conception, and the xSTPs who manipulate objects externally (sports, combat, social interactions) to justify an internal conception.

    For xxFPs, when their emotions are questioned, they'll use their extraverted perceiving functions to manipulate the variables to justify that emotion, while being less inclined to dismiss the emotion itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNFPs who manipulate abstractions externally (causes, social movements, other's feelings) to justify an internal feeling, and the xSFPs who manipulate objects (art, music, their bodies) to justify an internal feeling.

    For xSxJs, when their memories are questioned, they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that memory, while being less inclined to dismiss the memory itself. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xSTJs who manipulate the external environment (tradition, structures, text) to confirm their memory, and the xSFJs who manipulate other people (tradition, social hierarchies, relationships) to confirm their memory.

    For xNxJs, when their internal vision is questioned (which it pretty much always is), they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that vision. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xNTJs who manipulate the external environment (subordinates, objects, structures) to confirm their vision, and the xNFJs who manipulate other people (advice, persuasion, politics) to confirm their vision.
    Is this TRUE????


  4. #1054
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    For xNxJs, when their internal vision is questioned (which it pretty much always is), they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that vision. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xNTJs who manipulate the external environment (subordinates, objects, structures) to confirm their vision, and the xNFJs who manipulate other people (advice, persuasion, politics) to confirm their vision.
    I'll speak to the part I know here (INTJ).

    Initially, this seemed credible, but the more I read it, it doesn't seem to describe things adequately at all.

    The internal vision (Ni) is always questioned, but it's a partnership between Ni and Te to resolve the issue. The preference is to keep the existing vision, but the requirement is that the vision be correct.

    There's a reason I focus on the stress situation and arguments. Usually, there is no significant question/challenge. Many issues/questions are simply filed under "pending," in Ni, the same way Ti needs time to process things more thoroughly.

    It isn't that the extroverted function (perceiving or judging) doesn't "manipulate things to resolve the issue", but rather that the extroverted function gets there first. The introverted function takes its time to adjust.

    When the judging function orientations are shared, the stress and miscommunication are less likely to occur, as both sides implicitly understand how the other processes things. When the orientation is not shared, conflict and stress occurs because the other side processes thinking and feeling at different rates.

    I think this may be generalized to the other cases.

  5. #1055
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not exactly. The dominant/auxiliary introverted function is the inside persona. The dom/aux extraverted function is the outside persona. Whether you're drawn to your interior or exterior persona is an inherent distinction.

    So for xxTPs, when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNTPs who manipulate abstractions externally (theories, inventions, legal arguments) to justify an internal conception, and the xSTPs who manipulate objects externally (sports, combat, social interactions) to justify an internal conception.
    From what I see xxTPs take external things to support their internal logic, we dont manipulate it. This is where intent gets confused with reality. Do you know how screwed up your internal logic would be in this case? I could get Fe prickly, but I will refrain That is what makes us a perceptive type. When you start to manipulate your external perception how do you even know the original response to things? You would in effect be blind to everything except your controlled reality.

    Quick Ti prickly question. You being an xxTP and expressing how xxTPs are.
    when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself.
    How do I know how you are manipulating MBTI to prove your internal logic?

    Yes, you hit a button.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #1056
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not exactly. The dominant/auxiliary introverted function is the inside persona. The dom/aux extraverted function is the outside persona. Whether you're drawn to your interior or exterior persona is an inherent distinction.

    So for xxTPs, when their logic is questioned, they will use their extraverted perceiving function to manipulate the variables to justify their internal logic structure, while being less inclined to dismiss that structure itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNTPs who manipulate abstractions externally (theories, inventions, legal arguments) to justify an internal conception, and the xSTPs who manipulate objects externally (sports, combat, social interactions) to justify an internal conception.

    For xxFPs, when their emotions are questioned, they'll use their extraverted perceiving functions to manipulate the variables to justify that emotion, while being less inclined to dismiss the emotion itself. Ne will do this in the abstract realm, while Se will do this in the concrete realm. So you have the xNFPs who manipulate abstractions externally (causes, social movements, other's feelings) to justify an internal feeling, and the xSFPs who manipulate objects (art, music, their bodies) to justify an internal feeling.

    For xSxJs, when their memories are questioned, they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that memory, while being less inclined to dismiss the memory itself. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xSTJs who manipulate the external environment (tradition, structures, text) to confirm their memory, and the xSFJs who manipulate other people (tradition, social hierarchies, relationships) to confirm their memory.

    For xNxJs, when their internal vision is questioned (which it pretty much always is), they'll use their extraverted judging functions to manipulate the variables to justify that vision. Te will do this through external imposition, while Fe will do this through social interaction. So you have the xNTJs who manipulate the external environment (subordinates, objects, structures) to confirm their vision, and the xNFJs who manipulate other people (advice, persuasion, politics) to confirm their vision.
    onemoretime, do you think development of the inferior in XXTPs helps prevent this justification? It seems Si helps ground enfps and give us a historical basis? I'd assume it does the same wrt the ideas of an XXTP.

  7. #1057
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'll speak to the part I know here (INTJ).

    Initially, this seemed credible, but the more I read it, it doesn't seem to describe things adequately at all.

    The internal vision (Ni) is always questioned, but it's a partnership between Ni and Te to resolve the issue. The preference is to keep the existing vision, but the requirement is that the vision be correct.
    Everyone's eventually wrong. Through the extraverted efforts, if they're proven wrong, then eventually everyone's just got to give up. They know that they can't save the day anymore, and it's better to just go home and lick your wounds than fight a losing battle.

    There's a reason I focus on the stress situation and arguments. Usually, there is no significant question/challenge. Many issues/questions are simply filed under "pending," in Ni, the same way Ti needs time to process things more thoroughly.
    Ti doesn't necessarily take time. It might seem like we're ponderous and long-winded, but Ti formulations come fairly instantaneously. Ti's lossless logic, while Te's lossy logic. The latter is far more functional than the former in most contexts, but in certain circumstances (like tinkering), you need the greater level of detail.

    It isn't that the extroverted function (perceiving or judging) doesn't "manipulate things to resolve the issue", but rather that the extroverted function gets there first. The introverted function takes its time to adjust.
    I disagree. This is the case for extroverts. Introverts "get there first" with their introverted function. They seemingly take their time because they have to wait for their secondary to show up and provide a format for expression. An INTP, for example, doesn't take a while to speak because he's formulating the pattern: the pattern was formulated in about half a second. He's figuring out exactly how he's going to express it.

    When the judging function orientations are shared, the stress and miscommunication are less likely to occur, as both sides implicitly understand how the other processes things. When the orientation is not shared, conflict and stress occurs because the other side processes thinking and feeling at different rates.
    This is disconnected from the above. The judging function divergence comes from a difference in stimulation. Fe/Ti stimulation comes from the resolution of outstanding issues. Fi/Te stimulation comes from the issues themselves. Ti eventually grows frustrated at the unsolvable problem, while Te grows frustrated at the absence of a problem. Fe cannot tolerate the presence of unpleasant emotional stimuli, while Fi cannot tolerate the absence of emotional stimuli.

  8. #1058
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Everyone's eventually wrong. Through the extraverted efforts, if they're proven wrong, then eventually everyone's just got to give up. They know that they can't save the day anymore, and it's better to just go home and lick your wounds than fight a losing battle.



    Ti doesn't necessarily take time. It might seem like we're ponderous and long-winded, but Ti formulations come fairly instantaneously. Ti's lossless logic, while Te's lossy logic. The latter is far more functional than the former in most contexts, but in certain circumstances (like tinkering), you need the greater level of detail.



    I disagree. This is the case for extroverts. Introverts "get there first" with their introverted function. They seemingly take their time because they have to wait for their secondary to show up and provide a format for expression. An INTP, for example, doesn't take a while to speak because he's formulating the pattern: the pattern was formulated in about half a second. He's figuring out exactly how he's going to express it.



    This is disconnected from the above. The judging function divergence comes from a difference in stimulation. Fe/Ti stimulation comes from the resolution of outstanding issues. Fi/Te stimulation comes from the issues themselves. Ti eventually grows frustrated at the unsolvable problem, while Te grows frustrated at the absence of a problem. Fe cannot tolerate the presence of unpleasant emotional stimuli, while Fi cannot tolerate the absence of emotional stimuli.
    I'm talking about the speed at which Xi processes something new vs the speed at which Xe processes something new.

    Yes, for INTJ, Ni "gets there first", and for an INTP Ti is "instantaneous" in cases where the knowledge is already correct and there are no conflicts.

    In conflict resolution, the Xi function is always slower at resolving the issue than Xe, because the Xi function has to do something other than the "same old same old." Database analogy: I can run existing queries quickly, but it takes me a while to write a new query.

  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm talking about the speed at which Xi processes something new vs the speed at which Xe processes something new.

    Yes, for INTJ, Ni "gets there first", and for an INTP Ti is "instantaneous" in cases where the knowledge is already correct and there are no conflicts.

    In conflict resolution, the Xi function is always slower at resolving the issue than Xe, because the Xi function has to do something other than the "same old same old." Database analogy: I can run existing queries quickly, but it takes me a while to write a new query.
    This is how I understood what you said previously, its that whole looking at whats said, flipping it backwards and analyzing all the permutations of it to see if your angle makes sense.

    The good thing is we get bored of the same old same old. But by that time we know it backwards and forwards, inside and out.

    When I first tackle something new I want to be fed massive amounts of data that talking or thinking simply cannot provide. Its like starvation at the beginning, at the end we know the answer before you even realized you explained anything.

    This is actually a cycle I hit over and over.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    This is disconnected from the above. The judging function divergence comes from a difference in stimulation. Fe/Ti stimulation comes from the resolution of outstanding issues. Fi/Te stimulation comes from the issues themselves. Ti eventually grows frustrated at the unsolvable problem, while Te grows frustrated at the absence of a problem. Fe cannot tolerate the presence of unpleasant emotional stimuli, while Fi cannot tolerate the absence of emotional stimuli.
    I think you nailed this part pretty good. When I hit frustration from Ti then Fe not being able to tolerate the presence of unpleasant emotional stimuli kicks in. For a dominant Ti this is extremely hard point for people to hit as our logic is extremely fuzzy and we know when a wall is hit logically. Logic is our domain, just as intuition in the way U described it is Ni domain.

    edit: curious if the extreme fuzziness is Ti combined with Ni.

    edit: and the button you hit a few posts up has nothing to do with that logical wall. Just so happens that they co-existed in the same thread.
    Im out, its been fun

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