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  1. #1041
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    So I wanted to backtrack and hit a couple of interesting points. Note this is Ne in action. Ne endlessly scans the conversation amassing data almost subconsciously. It sort of knaws at the information, establishes infant connections, then wants to go back to certain points. Thus our conversations employ “loop backs” into previous points of this convo. Even worse, two Ne users will be looping into previous conversations. To an ESTJ, this looks like we are both insane.

    Understand 98% of the below appears to be subconscious to an ENFP. But working backwards using NeTe starting points the below may be good guesses to explain the Jungian mechanics behind our actions but lots of room for discussions.

    When I mentioned organizational triads like ENTP-ENFP-ISTJ, U brought up a very valid point concerning data. N=what? This is a good place to talk about how FiTeSi might be working in ENFPs. I have a people library in my brain. N=anyone I have ever met.

    NeFi feeds me a flow of data about people which I then store as FiSi representations. Everyday I see the person, I take an “update” for lack of a better word. I seem to be able to build them in layers-both in quality of the representation of the person and as a way to monitor their behavior over time.

    Often I don’t make eye contact but instead watch the person through brief glances, then I seem to cross check them against the internal FiSi representation for congruity. Are they the same as yesterday? Do they seem different from the default representation? This is indicative of “change” of some sort.

    This is why ENFPs torture ENTPs.
    “You seem unhappy. Are you feeling okay? Are you sure because you seem stressed? Really, I don’t think you are being honest, because you seem out of sorts?” The ENFP is observing ENTPs under stress-who become decidedly “tweaky” and differs from the stored internal “normal” representation. I have never committed the above sins of digging as I don’t want to be emo dug myself. When my ENTPs get tweaky, I just give them some space. I’d bet another Fe user would understand intuitively that the ENTP needs that space.

    Based on ENXP symmetry it wouldn’t surprise me if ENTPs do something similar with storing of ideas or logical systems and then cross checking???? Total guess though.

    What do these cross representations mean for an ENFP?

    We can quick type pretty easily. Using FiTeSi I can observe and categorize individuals. Then using NeFiTe I can prepare “templates” for what a normal ISTJ might look like. Then when I meet new people, I cross check against that template and previous ISTJs I have known. I have used MBTI letters for about five years, but only in the last year have I known about the Jungian functions.

    As I learn more, quick typing becomes even easier. For instance, IXTJs can be hard to tell apart. I have two who seem very “N” at times. Once I understood the importance of Se to an INTJ, I scanned all of the INTJs I know-both IRL, and in my mental library, historically identified how the Se shows up in their behavior. It’s obvious and it is also obvious that my two unknowns are both ISTJs tapping into Ne.

    The mental representations also mean I will pick up on trending of your behavior over time and be very sensitive to purturbations, but not notice your new hair color or that my sweater is on inside out.

    To take this to a higher level, I see these same patterns across systems of people. Once I see a particular group of people interact a certain way, I then use structure the pattern using Te, then collect more observational data to see if it fits the model I built. If not the model is wrong and gets changed. However this was very hard to do with just MBTI letters-the Jungian functions supply the mechanical components.

    I am very confident in the ENTP-ENFP-ISTJ triad as I have about fifteen ENTPs, three ENFPs, and about 40 ISTJs. You see the same pattern repeat and the ENFPs do the same exact thing-which can be explained via Jungian functions and the Ti/Fe to Te/Fi interface and how it relates to trust.

    The ENTP-ISFJ-ENTP triad ? N=1, thus I can build a model and cross check against other Fe observations, but I need to see this repeated many times before being confident.

  2. #1042
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    A final loopback-Fe Hierarchal societies.

    This is all so much bullshit I almost hesitate to type it. I see it externally and try and plug into a biological evolutionary context, but it needs a lot of work. I am not programmed to understand the motives as a Te user, only understand the observations as patterns and it’s likely it will offend somebody. Sorry I am a little slow.

    Just cause somebody asked, I figured I'd take a stab at it.

    It seems like maybe a two tiered approach. Leadership may be via a loosely shared, highly competitive group of ENTPs. No one rules everything, but through political games they effectively neutralize each other to the same level. The ESTPs try and play here as well but the ENTPs have long term vision to give them an advantage.

    The whole second level is based upon Fe reciprocal ties. Fe bonds are pleasurable, beautiful connections to other Fe users, but are not raw and open like Fi is. Thus Fe can be used defensively and seems to have a plentitude of layers of intimacy between you and them. Some Fe bonds will be very tight, others very loose or even hostile-yet on the surface appear pleasing. The EXTPs will dive in and out of this social mix, some taking advantage of the reciprocal ties and while others embrace them. The whole idea may be based in shared resources during times of shortage. You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours. Imagine the medieval court or a soriority and you can get an inkling. Politics in both tiers are exceptionally important.

    There is a group mentality. The ultimate Te punishment is physical aggression. The ultimate Fe punishment is being shunned from the social group-thus being deprived of resources-ie death in times of need.

    The Fe social ties seem very complex and under constant modification? Social mannerisms, posturing, ceremony, delicacy, just the right words used at the right time in the right way.

    Social tie modification can be seen Ti behaviors such as intense competition, yet in a “win-win, let’s play again” manner-quite unlike Te overt domination which crushes competitors.

    To be honest, it doesn’t appear there is a driving force here to help the weakest member of the group. If you are too weak to be of help to me in times of need, then I will be very unlikely to forge a strong Fe bond with you. (Thus the evolution of Fi??)

    What would be signs of “weakness”? illness, emotional instability, injury. Another interesting feature is individualization. In a pack of zebras, you never see an albino zebra. They are the first to get eaten as they stand out in the eye of a predator. Thus any feature that causes an individual to stand out alone from the “herd” could be interpreted as a “weakness” and thus render then unsuitable for a strong Fe bond. If you get eaten by a lion, you wont be around to help me via Fe reciprocal bonds in times of need.

    The IXTPs seem to exist independent of these two layers, and it seems that many INFJs can also step in and out of them.

  3. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    To be honest, it doesn’t appear there is a driving force here to help the weakest member of the group. If you are too weak to be of help to me in times of need, then I will be very unlikely to forge a strong Fe bond with you. (Thus the evolution of Fi??)

    What would be signs of “weakness”? illness, emotional instability, injury. Another interesting feature is individualization. In a pack of zebras, you never see an albino zebra. They are the first to get eaten as they stand out in the eye of a predator. Thus any feature that causes an individual to stand out alone from the “herd” could be interpreted as a “weakness” and thus render then unsuitable for a strong Fe bond. If you get eaten by a lion, you wont be around to help me via Fe reciprocal bonds in times of need.

    The IXTPs seem to exist independent of these two layers, and it seems that many INFJs can also step in and out of them.
    This is kinda where I sit. I have no drive to be part of the social hierarchy, but enjoy the challenge of attemping to topple the strong. Its not done to move up in the ladder, but to make sure the person that is trying to put himself on top deserves to be on top. I am generally the person in the background waiting for someone to challenge. I enjoy the challenge, not to win, but for the experience and the knowledge I get.

    I also enjoy letting others in and helping them. This is all done in the background and I want no recognition of it from others. I have no desire to be recognized except from the person I helped and even then I am learning how to accept "thank you" as in the past I had the hardest time saying "your welcome". It would always come out "no problem" or "anytime".

    I will even help ENTPs climb that ladder when they become stuck. I learn and work extremely fast and applying knowledge in the real world quickly is where NTPs get stuck and STPs shine. I challenge not in the Fe sense but in th Ti sense. What this equates to is when an ENTP gets stuck trying to traverse that ladder using Fe, I jump in head first with Ti and say screw the heirarchy, I need XYZ and if you arent willing to help I will reverse engineer and figure it out myself. So ENTPs are sitting in an Fe loop challenging others while I am going in through the backdoor. Because of my lack of desire to be in that ladder all I care about is getting things done.

    ISTPs would be the equivalent of IxFPs bringing us non Fi into the realm of Fi. In the process I have learned how to affect Fi, but I have never really been a part of that Fi group, not because I wouldnt be accepted, but I dont know how to traverse their structures. I do get a kick out of playing with it from the outside. I know how to affect it, how to recognize it, but my lack has always caused me to keep that distance.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #1044
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post

    As I learn more, quick typing becomes even easier. For instance, IXTJs can be hard to tell apart. I have two who seem very “N” at times. Once I understood the importance of Se to an INTJ, I scanned all of the INTJs I know-both IRL, and in my mental library, historically identified how the Se shows up in their behavior. It’s obvious and it is also obvious that my two unknowns are both ISTJs tapping into Ne.
    What does Se "look like" to you in an INTJ?
    What does Ne "look like" to you in an ISTJ?

  5. #1045
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What does Se "look like" to you in an INTJ?
    What does Ne "look like" to you in an ISTJ?

    In ISTJs, the Ne shows up when they get really stressed. They stay pretty quiet normally. K mentioned ENFPs can seem oddly conservative due to Si. It makes enfps pause before acting. Like physically pause and delay. The ISTJs do this. There is a decided sense of internal conservation. Reserved in gestures, facial expressions, arms movements. A sense of punctuation. A bit like they are in slow motion???

    Until they get crazy stressed (my company is awesome for observing personality types under stress). When ISTJs start to get stressed just before the dissolve into total apathy, they can get goofy. Being an Ne dom, I can drag this out of them very well. Now that the ISTJs trust me I can poke at the inferior Ne and make them laugh. They dont really understand why they are laughing, they just know it's funny. My ENTP says my role in meetings is to say insane things to the ISTJs to get them out of the Si rut. A few weeks back I was rubbing my head on the QA Director and telling him the squirrels in my brain are contagious.

    The Se seems to get tagged teamed with Te in INTJs. I think that may be why you guys, when young can come across more abrupt, a bit rude, forceful, and aggressive even. It comes out much worse under stress. It's hard to describe. You guys dont talk a lot but when you do it is louder, more assertive, more forceful than an ISTJ. Your posture will be more aggressive-like leaning forward a bit or propped up sort of arrogantly. There can be a swagger here too? I think maybe the Se might be contribute to what Onemoretime talked about-the sense of arrogance??? I havent thought on this honestly, just can observe the increased sense of physicality of an INTJ over an ISTJ and making a guess towards Se.

    In horses, they call it "presence". The horse may stand perfectly still, yet there is something about the posture, the expression, the bodily stance...My entp says you guys exude a sense of power.

    (However I have met some older INTJs that were in deep in Ni land and you didnt see the Se physicality, more just no eye contact and off in their own world.)

    I need more data. sorry.

  6. #1046
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I've put together some thoughts on Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti, based on our discussions here and first principles. This is still hypothesis, but it seems to fit in with prior observations.

    Fi:
    ego is emotion
    processes feelings slowly

    Ti:
    ego is intellect
    processes ideas slowly

    "slowly" != stupid or inept, but rather slowly == carefully
    ego == how easily one may feel "attacked" by disagreement (in the realm of that judging function) So Fi will never feel attacked by logic, but only by values/emotion. Analogously, Ti will feel attacked by disrespect for one's ability to reason, and not by emotion/values. In both cases, Je handles the other judging style "objectively", and while disagreements may occur, they "don't feel like attacks".

    Te:
    intellect is not the ego
    processes "thinking" quickly
    avoids discussion of prickly Fi values instinctively

    Fe:
    emotion is not the ego
    processes "feelings" quickly
    avoids discussion of prickly Ti concerns instinctively

    Both Te and Fe act in the world to affect things, and the quick processing also means that each is used to defend its corresponding Ji function. Te defends Fi, Fe defends Ti.

    For Te/Fi, if something is hurting Fi, Te steps in as a shield, and suddenly nothing is about feelings, feelings are irrelevant, and logic and reason are paramount. Fi can't process the feelings fast enough, Te steps in, whether to delay or simply stop the "attack." "Oh, no no no, my choice is based on solely logical considerations, no, you didn't hurt my feelings, I just have a job to do." And so on. Te tries to explain it all in terms of logical process, and ignores the role feelings play.

    This is so instinctive for Te/Fi that one often believes one's own lies, especially if Te is the stronger. There is often a lack of awareness of the role of Fi in such cases.

    For Fe/Ti, it the same, but reversed. If something is hurting Ti, if one's intellect is directly challenged, Fe steps in and suddenly, logic is irrelevant, and feelings/motivations/values are paramount. Ti can't process the logic fast enough, so Fe steps in, to delay or stop the "attack." Often Fe will question others' motivations for provoking a challenge, whether aggressively (by accusation) or more constructively (by asking whether the other is feeling OK, and if something is wrong). Fe tries to explain it all in terms of social interaction, and ignores the role of logical analysis.

    Both of these are stress cases, and usually don't come into play otherwise: Je enters in defense of Ji, because Ji for the moment is not as capable in the active context. In fact, it often appears that in Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti conflicts, Ti perceives Te as attacking one's own ability to logically reason, and Fi perceives Fe as attacking one's own values and willingness to care. In a way, the Ji usage perceives the fight, Ji is abandoned, and Je steps in to fill the functional vacuum. The key characteristic of this kind of Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti conflict is that one side is very aware of the cause of conflict, while the other is often clueless or only vaguely aware. The Ji reaction is very visceral, such that one feels it should be obvious to the other that a line has been crossed, but each others' internal wiring is different enough that it is not obvious to the other.

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've put together some thoughts on Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti, based on our discussions here and first principles. This is still hypothesis, but it seems to fit in with prior observations.

    Fi:
    ego is emotion
    processes feelings slowly

    Ti:
    ego is intellect
    processes ideas slowly

    "slowly" != stupid or inept, but rather slowly == carefully
    ego == how easily one may feel "attacked" by disagreement (in the realm of that judging function) So Fi will never feel attacked by logic, but only by values/emotion. Analogously, Ti will feel attacked by disrespect for one's ability to reason, and not by emotion/values. In both cases, Je handles the other judging style "objectively", and while disagreements may occur, they "don't feel like attacks".

    Te:
    intellect is not the ego
    processes "thinking" quickly
    avoids discussion of prickly Fi values instinctively

    Fe:
    emotion is not the ego
    processes "feelings" quickly
    avoids discussion of prickly Ti concerns instinctively
    I cant think in the moment, in a back and forth manner like a Te person can. I am much better at processing huge amounts of data very quickly or applying what I know extremely fast.

    Te comes in as half truths that must be further analyzed. It comes across as "I can see that" or an agreement and at a later point I analyze it further.

    Te appears to process huge amounts of data slower, but thinks faster.

    edit: even this statement is filled with half truths
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #1048
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I cant think in the moment, in a back and forth manner like a Te person can. I am much better at processing huge amounts of data very quickly or applying what I know extremely fast.

    Te comes in as half truths that must be further analyzed. It comes across as "I can see that" or an agreement and at a later point I analyze it further.

    Te appears to process huge amounts of data slower, but thinks faster.

    edit: even this statement is filled with half truths
    Yeah, but it's OK. Really.

    xxTJ's Te reads the "half truth" and assimilates it, then Ni and Si go in and determine "what you meant to say" by filling in the blanks, determining the other half of the truth by logical necessity.

    For Ti, it's backwards from that. Se or Ne brings in the info, and Ti assimilates/sorts it.

  9. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, but it's OK. Really.

    xxTJ's Te reads the "half truth" and assimilates it, then Ni and Si go in and determine "what you meant to say" by filling in the blanks, determining the other half of the truth by logical necessity.

    For Ti, it's backwards from that. Se or Ne brings in the info, and Ti assimilates/sorts it.
    Yes, we dont try to determine what you meant to say, but spider the half truths into complete truths going down all possible paths not only taking what was said, but the reverse of what was said and all possible permutations of it.

    on a side note, its fun to watch an Fi user try to protect Fi that doesnt exist on the other end, its revealing
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #1050
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    on a side note, its fun to watch an Fi user try to protect Fi that doesnt exist on the other end, its revealing
    The reverse is true, too. It suddenly makes more sense to me that it's Ti being prickly for the other person.

    The cool thing is that if I can realize that it's Ti being prickly soon enough, I can adjust, and you may be able to extend a similar courtesy to Fi.

    This seems to be very parallel to the "Five Love Languages". I wonder if any particular "love language" is strongly associated with Ti or Fi.

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