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  1. #1031
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Best post I've read in this thread thus far.

    Didn't know you had some kink in you, mister uum.

    I like!

    gentle lick on the asshole <- einstein with glasses
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  2. #1032
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What's that competency based on? What is being trusted in?

    Devotion to the cause, whatever it is.
    You're losing me, here. I think you're trying to describe it in your language/perception, which translates poorly into mine. "Devotion" does not compute, for me.

    Not quite, like you noticed. Ti/Fe can be fairly individualist if that's the group's values. It's more a commitment to others compared to a commitment to self.
    "individualist if that's the group's values" - I'm not sure whether that's a paradox or an outright contradiction. "Nonconformists" all conforming to each other, perhaps? Not really individualists, then.

    I notice that you seem to focus on the Fe vs Fi ... that Ti/Fe is "commitment to others", while Fi/Te is "commitment to oneself." Also, I believe it's a slightly overloaded attribution of virtue. "Has values that are oriented" towards others or oneself, seems more appropriate. Ti/Fe might be "committed" to the social organization, or instead be very skilled at swindling others by navigating those Ti/Fe-style social constructs in deceptive ways. Fi/Te might be an entirely selfish prick, or alternatively be very spiritually enlightened (assume highly developed sense of Fi) and be a kind of spiritual teacher or counselor (just as Ti wants to instruct/teach).

    Maybe, but "objective" vs. "social" might not be the best words for it. A better conceptualization would be "process hierarchy" vs. "systems hierarchy." The process hierarchy demands that the process be completed, without regard to the systemic effects. To the systems hierarchy, this seems myopic, immature, and potentially catastrophic. As far as the process hierarchy is concerned, completing the process takes priority over systemic effects ("you've got to crack some eggs to make an omelet"). The process hierarchy grows impatient with the systems hierarchy's need to maintain itself, without necessarily completing the process. To it, this seems like a waste of resources, and a hindrance from moving on. As far as the systems hierarchy is concerned, the process isn't worth completing if it destroys the system as a result ("a house divided cannot stand").
    I notice that isn't an entirely balanced perspective: there's no acknowledgment that the failure of the process may well result in the failure of the system, just as the failure of the system can result in the failure of the process. Also, I see these arguments as inadvertently comparing the two as TJ vs TP, when I suspect, as hierarchies, it's more TJ vs FJ. Both are cooperative, but are differently cooperative.

    Personally, I'm not getting a better distinction with the words "process" and "system." They sound very similar to me. I'll need to think about the distinction some more.

  3. #1033
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Note to self: fire all the ENTPs.

  4. #1034
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Jesus crackers, this thread gives me a headache.

    Haven't caught up in a few days/pages.

    WTF/H is going on?

    Are we even discussing the INTJ/ENFP dynamic anymore?

    I wish we could have more real-life examples.

    I'm with you here.

  5. #1035
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're losing me, here. I think you're trying to describe it in your language/perception, which translates poorly into mine. "Devotion" does not compute, for me.
    Your desire for absolute competence is a devotion to that craft.

    "individualist if that's the group's values" - I'm not sure whether that's a paradox or an outright contradiction. "Nonconformists" all conforming to each other, perhaps? Not really individualists, then.
    It's called the United States of America.

    I notice that you seem to focus on the Fe vs Fi ... that Ti/Fe is "commitment to others", while Fi/Te is "commitment to oneself." Also, I believe it's a slightly overloaded attribution of virtue. "Has values that are oriented" towards others or oneself, seems more appropriate. Ti/Fe might be "committed" to the social organization, or instead be very skilled at swindling others by navigating those Ti/Fe-style social constructs in deceptive ways. Fi/Te might be an entirely selfish prick, or alternatively be very spiritually enlightened (assume highly developed sense of Fi) and be a kind of spiritual teacher or counselor (just as Ti wants to instruct/teach).
    You'd be better off not trying to shoehorn value judgments where there are none. A commitment to oneself would be the most virtuous thing in the world if you were the most virtuous person in the world.

    I notice that isn't an entirely balanced perspective: there's no acknowledgment that the failure of the process may well result in the failure of the system, just as the failure of the system can result in the failure of the process. Also, I see these arguments as inadvertently comparing the two as TJ vs TP, when I suspect, as hierarchies, it's more TJ vs FJ. Both are cooperative, but are differently cooperative.
    Oh good lord. I'm trying to keep things neutral here. Of course the failure of one or the other can lead to the failure of its complement - that's really obvious, and part of why I chose the terms systems and process, because they're inherently linked. I didn't think I had to spell it out.

    Fe is just as much of an objective system as Te is. It's based on a set of rules that are universal among human beings, along with certain cultural variations, just like Te is based on rules that are universal among human beings, that may differ based on culture. It's not subjective like Fi is, so that sort of comparison is barking up the wrong tree. Ti is much more subjective than Fe is, just so you know.

    Personally, I'm not getting a better distinction with the words "process" and "system." They sound very similar to me. I'll need to think about the distinction some more.
    Process: software (what actually does something)
    Systems: hardware (what provides the framework for things to be done)

    Te acts upon Fi commands. Fe operates based on Ti determinations.

  6. #1036
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're losing me, here. I think you're trying to describe it in your language/perception, which translates poorly into mine. "Devotion" does not compute, for me.
    devotion computes for me. Fi feels devoted to a cause. I like devoted people.

    However competency is totally in the realm of Te and rings very true for me as well. I am at the point where I can tolerate really rude people, total fucking jerks-if they are competent. Meaning they show up, contribute to the team, accomplish sets of deliverable, are not ego driven, and dont fuck over the rest of my team. Gotta love the metrics eh?

    Why? If they are competent their efforts will support the group and its long term objectives. Typically satisfying those objectives will mean greater happiness for the group-thus accomplishing the Fi goal.

    Poki-I didnt quote your post but can you give an example of a concrete situation where you used the Ni wall to replan? I kinda get what you are saying...As for the little guy, my ISTP and his INTJ dad almost killed each other. However I notice my IXTJ little guy (OMG, I forgot you!!!) will sometimes get stuck on stuff-like if meta routines change, or facts change, he gets very upset. He developed a stutter the last time I traveled. Even with adult INTJs, I avoid going head to head arguments with them. They kinda get stuck. Instead I drop by, typically in butterfly insanity mode, dump the correct information, then run. I give them about two days of processing time. If the new data is correct, they seem to have no choice but to process and incorporate. (btw-butterfly insanity isnt planned, just natural pattern I observe. INTJs can make me hyper silly.)

    Trying to go head to head without time to reprocess seems very conflicting and painful for IXTJs. I'd suggest to pick battles and ignore irrelevant stuff-like what day it is (says the Ne user)-and give him plenty of time to reprocess new info.

    (nope I am all Fi-it's that fun Fi-Fe translation gap )

  7. #1037
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    gentle lick on the asshole <- einstein with glasses


    Get out of my head, and my asshole, kind sir!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #1038
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm with you here.
    ah, my sweet-salty marm! where's my bucket o' kettle corn?

    ENFPs are butterflies that flutter around spastically, occasionally alighting on the shoulders on an INTJ and whispering silly secrets in his ear, then we flutter away again all meandering in crazy, lopsided Ne directions. INTJs are adorable (if a wee bit frumpy) guardian angels that sit behind us and watch our antics and silly decisions, then lean over our left shoulders and go-"What are you doing? Are you being emo again? Come here little butterfly." Then we alight on their hand with our delicate wings and big sweet eyes and they gently shield us from the wind.

    They seem to tolerate incredible emo moodiness, serve as an Ne ground to give us focus, and understand innately many of our values and why we respond the way we do.

    They supplement our [past-future] with the moment of now and the insight of Ni. (And based on my toddler at least, seem to be able to find the car keys better than me)

    Mostly though, they protect us. They keep us safe and allow us to be honest to what I think it was we were meant to be.

    They help us grow into something more and I think we may return the favor.

    Just my two cents.

  9. #1039
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    devotion computes for me. Fi feels devoted to a cause. I like devoted people.
    Good to know. Perhaps I do it without realizing it. I.e., it feels more like, "I made a choice," not like, "I'm blindly following some random cause."

    However I notice my IXTJ little guy (OMG, I forgot you!!!) will sometimes get stuck on stuff-like if meta routines change, or facts change, he gets very upset. He developed a stutter the last time I traveled. Even with adult INTJs, I avoid going head to head arguments with them. They kinda get stuck. Instead I drop by, typically in butterfly insanity mode, dump the correct information, then run. I give them about two days of processing time. If the new data is correct, they seem to have no choice but to process and incorporate. (btw-butterfly insanity isnt planned, just natural pattern I observe. INTJs can make me hyper silly.)

    Trying to go head to head without time to reprocess seems very conflicting and painful for IXTJs. I'd suggest to pick battles and ignore irrelevant stuff-like what day it is (says the Ne user)-and give him plenty of time to reprocess new info.
    This is quite interesting. And the bolded is probably especially wise, if it's a huge change. There is nothing to argue about, but we're probably very frustrated if the new processes don't align with familiar patterns.

    Usually, most changes don't bother me, but there is a certain level of routine I like to keep consistent. It's almost paradoxical, but INTJs both like and dislike change, but in particular ways. We want to keep the mundane aspects routine, so we can do them without having to think about them. Changing those is more difficult because we purposefully make them habitual, so it's not a matter of knowledge but of practice. The essential "what is my job now" aspects are usually a welcome change, as we'd rather think about a new problem than chew over an old one, again. The latter may be more problematic for ISTJs.

  10. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    You're losing me, here. I think you're trying to describe it in your language/perception, which translates poorly into mine. "Devotion" does not compute, for me.


    "individualist if that's the group's values" - I'm not sure whether that's a paradox or an outright contradiction. "Nonconformists" all conforming to each other, perhaps? Not really individualists, then.

    I notice that you seem to focus on the Fe vs Fi ... that Ti/Fe is "commitment to others", while Fi/Te is "commitment to oneself." Also, I believe it's a slightly overloaded attribution of virtue. "Has values that are oriented" towards others or oneself, seems more appropriate. Ti/Fe might be "committed" to the social organization, or instead be very skilled at swindling others by navigating those Ti/Fe-style social constructs in deceptive ways. Fi/Te might be an entirely selfish prick, or alternatively be very spiritually enlightened (assume highly developed sense of Fi) and be a kind of spiritual teacher or counselor (just as Ti wants to instruct/teach).
    What would you consider swindling. You used loaded words here and it would help to get some examples of swindlng and using social constructs in deceptive ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I notice that isn't an entirely balanced perspective: there's no acknowledgment that the failure of the process may well result in the failure of the system, just as the failure of the system can result in the failure of the process. Also, I see these arguments as inadvertently comparing the two as TJ vs TP, when I suspect, as hierarchies, it's more TJ vs FJ. Both are cooperative, but are differently cooperative.

    Personally, I'm not getting a better distinction with the words "process" and "system." They sound very similar to me. I'll need to think about the distinction some more.
    I try to keep a balance between failure of system and failure of process and let both bend. The thing is that an EP pushed into tertiary will become part of that Fe social construct. So really IJ,EP,EJ would all commonly use heirarchies depending on the situation. Going out on a limb with this.
    Im out, its been fun

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