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  1. #1011
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    teIam.


    Ah ... again the misunderstanding. I'm not talking 5 minutes of discussion. I'm talking 1 to 4 hours of discussion. Oh, you thought we'd save three hours?! Ha!
    You can always just, you know, leave in that circumstance.

    You're regarding yourself as a subordinate, and reacting to that. There is no fair play except in your own mind.
    As far as you're concerned.

    Yeah, but that doesn't justify a single derogatory comment you might make, ever.
    Explanations aren't justifications. They just are.

    I don't buy this. Is there something else you're talking about that you perceive as "martyrdom"? Might I know it by a different name?
    I don't know what you personally value, so I can't give you an example.

    Not getting on anyone's bad side, regardless of type, is usually a good goal.
    An even better goal is to not have a "bad side" oneself.
    You can't just Ni your way out of personality traits. Cross me and I'll want restitution of some sort. It's instinctual. It's just as much a pit of your stomach feeling as I'd imagine Fi is.

    I should caution you that not all INTJs have the limited skillset of those with whom you appear to have experience.
    True... but we're still better at this than y'all are. It's our natural mode of operations, our briar patch, so to speak.

    I'm very aware of the "delegitimizing ... in the eyes of onlookers" tactic. Pulling this stunt earns no points with me, and delegitimizes your arguments, in my eyes.
    And if it's gotten to that point, I no longer care one bit what that person thinks. I just want restitution.

    Have a care: using your lawyer-style superpowers has a price, just as my INTJ-style superpowers have their price.

    .....
    Aware of this. That's why it's a last resort measure. I'm usually trying to find every win-win scenario before going Thunderdome.

    I'm not buying the "limbic" arguments you are making about your gut reaction to INTJ style statements. If a large subset of people are unaware of these same social cues, there's something else going on. It might be a gut reaction, but there's something learned or unlearned about it. Wouldn't it be better for both sides to actually understand this about each other, rather than just insist that one's own perspective should have priority?
    Which is the better evolutionary strategy? Historically, it's been the retaliator strategy - this plays out through game theory as well.

    Why do you think we haven't bothered to modify this strategy over the course of human existence?

  2. #1012
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Which is the better evolutionary strategy? Historically, it's been the retaliator strategy - this plays out through game theory as well.

    Why do you think we haven't bothered to modify this strategy over the course of human existence?
    Your assertions don't answer my point. Why don't *I* feel that gut reaction ... or rather, why do I react to your Fe "oppressing my Fi", but not to other's Te oppressing my Ti? There's some sort of duality here that is being left uninvestigated.

  3. #1013
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Your assertions don't answer my point. Why don't *I* feel that gut reaction ... or rather, why do I react to your Fe "oppressing my Fi", but not to other's Te oppressing my Ti? There's some sort of duality here that is being left uninvestigated.
    I don't know. Maybe it had to do with more the "gatherer" side of primeval human society.

  4. #1014
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You see, the problem with this is that we on the other end get to take no pleasure in helping find the solution, and as a result this feels very oppressive. It's the same reason I can't stand dogmatic religion.

    It makes me feel like a cog in the machine, and that you feel I am inferior to you. This is a challenge - at this point, I'm inclined to demonstrate that I know the machine better than you do by dismantling the whole thing from within, because you've shown that you're not interested in both of us winning by working together as a team, and so, I've got to make sure you lose.

    Note to self: fire all the ENTPs.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #1015
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Note to self: fire all the ENTPs.
    Haha... and watch the whole structure come crumbling down with them.

    We're nothing if not vindictive

  6. #1016
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    First-I love you guys. Both my ENTPs and INTJs. You guys make my brain so happy and give me so much new stuff to chew on, plus you guys are just so clever. Puuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrr.....please keep "thinking" as it is so yummy, while I snuggle on the couch basking in all your thoughts...

    1. ENTPs need INTJs. INTJs need ENTPs. My perfect organizational structure would tag team them. INTJs aren't exactly socially smooth, thus require the Fe of the ENTP and the Ne to bump them out of Ni canyons. ENTPs will use so much Fe, they become mute, nonconfrontational, and end up excluding negative information via an "Fe reality" effect. They also get stuck in the weeds-The Ti details, thus the NiTe harsh reality and the Te logistical force are of great benefit.

    Alone each can struggle, but they seem to naturally pair up in my organization, albeit may not like each other.

    My entp and I have started thinking in terms of organizational triads:

    ENTP-ENFP-ISTJ is especially productive on the same management level. ENTP-INTJ-ENFP is another especially productive one. Interestingly ENTP-ISFJ-INTJ in a management structure isnt ideal but can be productive. ENTP-ISFJ-ENTP was a nightmarish disaster.

    2. U: No Ni for me wrt to your comment a few pages back about NeTe. Ni is a whole different beast I have tasted on occasion, but I live in a sea of Ne. Noigmn-a physicist-also mentions feeling like I do-Like you are flying over a landscape with eyes half closed, "feeling" the problem with your hands/chest looking for "lumps" that pop out. I am a human lump detector, albiet with about a 20% failure rate. I dunno..

    Ne-possibilities?
    Fi-complex pattern matching?
    Te-a desire to structure what the top two feed me?

  7. #1017
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Haha... and watch the whole structure come crumbling down with them.

    We're nothing if not vindictive
    Ah, the truth in this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    [Hmm. I'm suddenly wondering if there's an analogous Fi/Te-style hierarchy, of which Ti/Fe is unaware and does not honor. Or more specifically, I wonder what conventions that are common between Fi/Te folks are not honored by Ti/Fe.]

    This is me and my entp's favorite new topic-mostly because she thinks Fi/Te users are all fucking crazeeee. My guess-very tentative but pretty expected-only describing Te users, excluding Fe users:

    You have a few very dominating Te members at the top of the social structure-ENTJs and INTJs with some ESTJs as well. There will be fighting amongst them for those dominant positions. (although I wonder-do they realize how dominating they are actually being? Does it feel like fighting? My ESTJ bosses very naturally fought, just saw it as a part of their day. My ENTJ bosses just shredded people, but seem confused by the response.INTJs just dominate.)

    There will be a second tier of mostly ESTJs with isolated, independent INTJs, then a third layer of ISTJs with some unhappy ESTJs.

    To build these layers requires some overt dominance and aggression, challenges between the Te users, but once stable the really cool thing seems to happen.

    The whole unit starts to function in concert. If the leader is highly dominant and MOST IMPORTANTLY-TRUSTED, the other Te users stop challenging each other, shelf the ego (mostly) and work together. Trust=Fi affirmation/validation/loyalty. They trust the leader's vision. Without that trust, the other Te users-especially the ISTJs-will balk and obstruct the mission via procedural barriers. It's how they fight.

    Think of the Te unit formed as a small tribe that must work in concert to survive. Once dominance issues are settled, the tribe must focus efforts on working together to maximize resources-thus function as a team.

    There is a strong sense of loyalty to the group and the dominating leader, purpose, integrity, honesty, trust, taking each other at face value, open direct communication, doing what is best for the tribe, and self sacrifice as needed. The group relies upon the dominating leader to be able to predict and prevent crisis before it happens-aka strategic management. The dominating leaders seem to feel a sense of responsibility and intense need to protect the group. They dont say "love" or "caring" but I think this need is grounded in tert and inferior Fi but carried out via Te.

    When my ENTJ boss got fired he cried. Not about the job-he left with over 300K-he cried about abandoning his people. Total douchebag though he was, he loved his people.

    Where are the tert Te users? We kinda of live outside the tiers but drop in and out. We arent really biologically designed to be dominating leaders, more obligatory empaths. We are bound by Fi to be empathic and help the weakest members of the group, that fall outside of the Fe social reciprocal networks. Thus we seek the protection of the Te users very naturally, because Fi needs protection.

    Where are the IXFPs? I dunno.

    Fe has whole different mechanisms-
    The ENTPs often talk about teamwork and competitiveness, but it ongoing, never ending competition via Ti. Everyone needs to be at the same level?? The Fe doms/auxs seem to establish social reciprocality networks. These are not honest, open communication networks about how you really feel-they seem to be safety nets, layers of connections, unspoken requests for assistance/recognition of those requests, an emotional display equals a demand for a deliverable perhaps??? I dunno, I can only see it from the outside.


    ^^BTW, when I use tert Te at work to try and manage groups-I feel a lot like Q's description. I want to do all the work myself, as I cant keep track of the things the others need to be doing. It is very stressful.

    This shit above? Structure of organizations/people patterns/individual behavioral variants? Using Te to identify that is EASY. It is painfully obvious to me that the patterns are there. THAT's what ENFPs are supposed to use Te for I think. (Should I insert emoticons?)

  8. #1018
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    Some people in this thread seem to believe their type is 'superior' to others, how dissapointing for those types. Perhaps they should grow some perspective. There is no stronger and more decisive team than an ENTP-INTJ duo.

  9. #1019
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Some people in this thread seem to believe their type is 'superior' to others, how dissapointing for those types. Perhaps they should grow some perspective. There is no stronger and more decisive team than an ENTP-INTJ duo.
    I like teamwork.

  10. #1020
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Some people in this thread seem to believe their type is 'superior' to others, how dissapointing for those types. Perhaps they should grow some perspective. There is no stronger and more decisive team than an ENTP-INTJ duo.
    Sorry Jim, I'll try to be better.

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