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  1. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I forgot the part where one has to phrase everything as a question, and that which cannot be a question liberally carpeted with "maybe" "perhaps" or "for instance", therefore you offend no one.
    lol, at Ni quoted. I recognize this type of thought pattern all to well.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #1002
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Just so you know, right of the bat: all of your answers here are quite clear and compelling. I very much appreciate them. My replies are not intended as contradictions or counterexamples, so much as a sharing of my alternative perspective (a very Fi thing to do, where you say "this is what it is like for me", and I say "Oh, OK, this is what it's like for me").

    (and just so you know, Fi/Te needs the kind of statements as above to indicate that you actually listened and there isn't any more arguing to be done)
    This is such an essential part of change management in a Te heavy workplace-even with ISTJs. My ENTP and I have waged wars over this need for affirmation, validation, buy-in or just recognition that you have considered the potential repercussions of a choice that Fi/Te users respond to.

    1. listen to concerns
    2. validate the reasonable nature of the comment (usually negative) via repeating it (Fi mirror)
    3. propose change, highlighting positives and pointing out he we will avoid negatives in step 2.


    (Look I made you some hearts SS. Do you still love me? I love INTJs-thus I have to dissect their innards with OMT and U, via these essays o' text to show my love? love? )

  3. #1003
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    I think, the problem here, no, not here, with me.

    Is that I give and know two fecal specks about functional analysis.

    I think I am a human being, who also happens to be an ENFP.

    And, I think that there are other human beings who happen to be INTJs.

    And, when two human beings, one being an INTJ, and the other being an ENFP, get together, magical and mystical things can happen.

    Along with a lot of hair pulling.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #1004
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Along with a lot of hair pulling.
    Of both the long hairs and the short hairs.

  5. #1005
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecton View Post
    Hey, my wife tests as a strong INTJ. She is not anything like the topic post's initial negative description.

    My Wife:
    They are vindictive: not at all
    cold: sometimes cold, but usually by negligence (lack of perceiving feelings.) Otherwise, she is very warm when I tell her how I feel
    insensitive: can be, but usually when stressed. If you get past the stress she can be very sensitive
    and mooch without so much as a thanks: never

    Are you basing your assessment on people who have been formally tested, or just on your labeling of people as INTJs?

    Now, I will tell you that I have met many traditional 'jerks' who are INTJ. I've worked with a few. Immature INTJs have a very hard time perceiving value in anything but a contest of idea fitness. This one is a sex-univsersal feature.

    Happy Puppy: My wife used to clam up and pout. But I refused to leave her alone until she expressed herself. It made things a lot better when she trusted me enough to tell me how she felt. I would always be patient. Sometimes it took her a day or a week to figure out how to say how she felt. It was important for me to hear.

    Typical immature male INTJ features I have worked with include stealing ideas on the basis of 'understanding them better', challenging everyone to debate duels, constantly claiming philosophical superiority in a stupid world, and obsessing over immature archetype media.

    The immature female INTJs I have worked with tend to label and attack non-logical thinkers through formal channels, withdraw from and show disdain for non-logical group work, consistently ignore input from colleagues judged inferior, and show an obsessive worship of ESTJ co-workers.

    Its this latter tendencies I listed for male and female INTJs where F types can get a latch on how isolated the F of an immature INTJ can be. As they grow and gain access to their F, they can grow to become really great people.

    I think one of the reasons INTJ maless often get a bad wrap is that their young personality is very nerdy or otherwise quiet, their young adult model is very angry, and their adult personality is never perceived by most people as it emerges after schooling is done. The greatest danger for an INTJ is between the ages of 12 and 25. Unfortunately, that's when things in life are the most chaotic and most people get the vast majority of their broad social exposure.

    Many ES types, on the contrary, grow up early in a world that likes them. They have an easier time from age 12 to 25. But then they seem to stagnate until they enter a crisis at mid life.

    My wife had her trouble when she was younger. But I grabbed her as she was coming out of it. She's amazing and great. She navigates her INTJ personality very healthily, and I'm the better for her being in my life.
    This is one of the best summaries of the INTJ I have ever read by anyone. Especially important is the distinction between mature and immature INTJs, and the difficulties faced while growing up. Usually I'm the one explaining INTJs to other people: it's quite a twist to have the type explained so well to me, from a non-INTJ perspective.

  6. #1006
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Just so you know, right of the bat: all of your answers here are quite clear and compelling. I very much appreciate them. My replies are not intended as contradictions or counterexamples, so much as a sharing of my alternative perspective (a very Fi thing to do, where you say "this is what it is like for me", and I say "Oh, OK, this is what it's like for me").

    (and just so you know, Fi/Te needs the kind of statements as above to indicate that you actually listened and there isn't any more arguing to be done)
    And so you know, the following are my understandings of the topic, and are not intended as judgments of you as a person. You're clearly bright, and your responses were well-thought out and appreciated.

    Yeah, we Te folks sense that. However, I've observed some Ti/Fe people like that fight, and admit to deliberately starting arguments that way, (by saying, effectively, "you are wrong" and giving very few terse reasons (if any) as to why. I think this ties into your statements about wanting to share in the discovery: some people want it to be a mutually friendly discovery, while others want it to be adversarial, just for the fun of it.
    It may seem like it's for fun, because we look like we're enjoying ourselves as NeTi revels in stimulation. However, in my case, I'd still rather have harmony - I want to be able to banter and go back-and-forth without any hard feelings between anyone. If it seems like I'm being petulant and combative, and enjoying it, I know I'm being "bad" so to speak. It's just that at this point, the other person's done something to where I simply don't care anymore.

    From the Te point of view, it's about "offending." As in, "OK, wtf did I say this time to piss you off?" We actually direct the energy toward the object or the idea, but as in the Ti competitiveness you express above, "them's fightin' words."
    I think we need to broach exactly why them's fightin' words. We pick up on the objectifying energy. We also pick up on it targeting us. Fe is very egalitarian within the ingroup. When you objectify me, it's interpreted as trying to establish a pecking order. That's simply not going to stand without a defense.

    True, and we share that philosophy, but our styles are different. Ti seems very tempted to be precise and nitpicky, when Te wants to, for example, start with the "training wheels" explanation, suitable for beginners, and then gradually go into more depth. I.e., teach the guy to put worms on a hook, first, rather than tell him to buy a boat with huge nets to tug through feeding/breeding grounds.
    And in return, that seems disrespectful to me - it should be up to the learner to determine the pace he or she wants to learn, rather than have it forced upon you by someone who thinks he's some sort of an expert.

    Which from the Te point of view turns a simple question of correct vs incorrect into a long, tedious lesson (which, from the Te, and especially the NiTe, perspective has already been learned).
    However, in that process, things often come out that have been overlooked by both parties. Ni can seem very overconfident and arrogant in these sorts of matters - it's nowhere near omniscient, and yet, immature Ni users often assume that the "facts" they state are God's own. We take the personal offense as mentioned above, along with an extreme lack of desire to be left holding the bag when the Ni user fucked up in one of the determinations. Many times, what seems to be tedious dithering over unimportant business is actually a defense strategy. We're purposefully derailing the process safely because Ne senses that something's "just not right", and we'd rather take a small failure then instead of a catastrophic one later.

    I'm wondering whether this is Te-direct or Fe-mimicking-Te. Both are possible, but I suspect that if it feels "personal," it's Fe. This is a vibe I get from various INTPs and especially INFJs with a strong Ti.
    See below.

    I believe that "directness" makes {Ti/Fe} invoke Fe, due to the synergy with being direct, and thus become personal. The same "directness" makes {Fi/Te} invoke Te, which is actually quite impersonal, but is perceived as personal through an Fe lens.
    The Te I refer to isn't in response to directness. It's in response to extraneous stress. When someone hits me at the wrong moment with a stressor, I'll turn into a dictator for a moment just to get it out of the way.

    Yes, except that for IxTJ, especially INTJ, it is easier to switch out the logical chain than to modify the variables. It's how our brains work. That's why it seems so fast and mysterious: we switch out patterns as fast as you switch out variables, and in some cases, this leads to "miraculously" finding solutions very quickly with a single functional/logical change, while changing the values of variables often turns out to be rather slow in comparison.
    I may not have explained myself well enough. It's not that we have trouble switching out the patterns; in fact, we're pretty damn adept at this. It's that when we do it, we customize it to the surrounding context. NeTi creates new logical chains every time it reconsiders a subject, while it seems NiTe is content to use the parts "off the shelf".

    For example, I can't be "taught" math particularly well. I'm pretty good at it, but only once I've figured out how it works. Simply learning it without understanding that seems superficial to me.

    Yeah, I understand this bit. Where Te and Ti conflict here is that Te cannot read which particular piece of logic you have wrong, so we're stuck fishing through your logic with you, and we often aren't aware when we come across it and finally fix it (often, Ti will just phrase more questions in its style, rather than say, "Oh, OK, I think I've got it, now.")
    Yes... because we're still refining it and making sure it works, nor are we certain it's entirely wrong... and we're still looking for a way to prove that you were wrong as well (which of course, you'll never admit, which makes this cycle become incredibly non-productive).

    Right. It's almost as much Ne vs Ni as Ti vs Te.
    Which luckily helps explain many of the conflicts between ENFPs and INTJs as well.

    Wanna know what this feels like to an INTJ? It feels like you're stealing our thought processes for your own selfish purposes. Usually, for the first few iterations, it can be cool. After that, however, it becomes tiresome. We have our own projects, or perhaps even OUR project, to finish, and that's being postponed as you refine your understanding. Something to watch out for in your communication style.
    And you wanna know what that feels like to me? No offense, but it comes across as slightly egomaniacal - you're more concerned with your own personal glory and conceit of intellectual superiority than helping a fellow team member solve a problem to mutual benefit. That you don't respect me as a coworker enough to believe my figuring out something will lead to greater future benefit raises the Ti/Fe competitive drive very quickly.

    This is what people mean by the NiTe arrogance. When you even intimate that you're holding an attitude like the above, practically every fiber in my being is in fighting mode. I know I'm just as smart and capable as you or anyone in the organization, and if you're challenging me like that, I'll make every effort to either affirmatively prove that, or barring that option, every effort to knock you down a peg or twenty to make sure you don't make the mistake of crossing me like that again. I'd advise you to take that into account when considering your communication style as well - that's a real easy way to make some very tenacious enemies, and I think we can agree that this is to no one's benefit.

    I don't know if I speak for most ENTPs, but I personally don't believe in much of intellectual property law, because I think we're better off if everyone has access to as much information as possible, since 6.7 billion heads work far better than one does.

    I fully understand stress tests and testing ideas. INTJs (NiTe) are all about that. Ni throws all sorts of random ideas at us, and Te tests them against the real world. What's left over is really very solid, empirically tested. You're doing a different kind of stress test: it's testing Ti against Ne (as opposed to Ni against Te). Ni/Te fully vets an idea for functionality, while Ti/Ne fully vets an idea for logical consistency.
    I don't think there's a hard distinction there - NeTi often understands that the most logically consistent idea in the world is pointless if it doesn't work, which is the ultimate test of logical consistency.

    Still, it helps to mention that you accept it. One of the harder lessons to learn as an INTJ was to often state the obvious, because it is so often not obvious to many people. (Of course, this then insults everyone to whom it was obvious, but that's another topic ...)
    We go through the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I have to point out where I drew a topic for conversation from.

    Yeah, like I said above, I think this is because of the Fe effect. Really and for true, when a Te talks directly, it really really is objective and impersonal. It just sounds personal to those who prefer Fe to Te.
    Just remember - we hate the social hierarchy, but we're very attuned to it. It seems like Te/Fi isn't as much so. If you want to improve your communication with the Fe-lensed, make sure to consider the hierarchical context of what you're saying. If you get a response that seems completely illogical, it's likely that you came across as aggressively trying to establish dominance in that context.

    Similarly, the Te user needs to realize how "personal" his direct statements sound to some people, and if people get distracted by that, then it's time to be more indirect.
    If that makes more sense to you than the above, then by all means, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    onemoretime-do use Te? If so how and when do you feel you use it and does it come with Ni or Fi?

    Both Q, Jeno and my ENTP all say they feel as though they can or have used Te in the past at times.
    Te comes out very quickly and very agitated. I start barking orders and do not tolerate dissent at that point. It's teamed up with Fe for sure - when people start getting out of line, I get on them for not following the objective. A stressed ENTP often looks like a particularly assholish INTJ - it's not our best moment.

  7. #1007
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    onemoretime-do use Te? If so how and when do you feel you use it and does it come with Ni or Fi?

    Both Q, Jeno and my ENTP all say they feel as though they can or have used Te in the past at times.
    I grew up with a heavy influence of Te, from my ESTJ dad. That could also be a reason why I can access such thought process with relative ease - although I do not really prefer it.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Te comes out very quickly and very agitated. I start barking orders and do not tolerate dissent at that point. It's teamed up with Fe for sure - when people start getting out of line, I get on them for not following the objective. A stressed ENTP often looks like a particularly assholish INTJ - it's not our best moment.
    This resonates a lot with me, especially the part about turning into an assholish INTJ, and getting very agitated.

    I usually evoke Te when it's kind of like a last option. E.g., in a group setting, I see that those who said they would be leaders, direct, are doing a sloppy job, missing obvious stuff, seem haphazard and as if they're going in circles, and I have a vested interest in the outcome, and no one else is taking up the rein - so I'll step in.

    And, once I do, it's a very concrete decision. Meaning, it's not directive as much as it manifests as dictatorial. At that point, I'm not very interested in hearing any opinions or considerations. I have mapped out exactly how the shit is going to go down, I've delegated tasks to people, knowing that their part is doable, so do not come and ask me "but how do I do it?", just get it done. Thus, I tend to get very snippy too. I just want results.

    I get anxious when I use Te - like things are not moving fast enough for my liking, which makes me more frustrated.

    And, it seems like an internal battle with Ti. I feel a bit overwhelmed because the plan of action set by Te, gets countered by Ti, as it finds holes after holes, and, then, I rework the thing to get a more air-tight contingency plan, and, again, Ti counters with more and more holes it finds.

    I feel like a billion details of the plan are floating around in my head, as a checklist, and my anxiety is only abated if each of those details are done/taken care of and within the given time-limit I've set. And, hence, why, at that point, I'm not really interested in "input" (although it could very well be beneficial)...but I just want the shit done like how I'm navigating it. Exactly so.

    Because I feel like I'm the only one who is juggling all the loose ends of the plan (even aware of all the things under consideration and how they all tie together), and, I'm itching to do the whole thing all by myself, to make sure it gets done to my satisfaction, but, since I have to work in a group, I want them to do exactly what is asked of them.

    Because, in a way, I find that the others (people) are also loose ends of the plan, and ones that I cannot really work in to the contingency plan as easily because they're not as predictable - being humans and all. If I'm setting up meetings by emails, I get frustrated if someone doesn't respond right away, do not follow the outline I gave in how to respond to the email (so they don't miss a detail), as they're just increasing my frustration by not doing exactly what I told them to do, laid out in exact "babying" steps, to make sure there was no point of confusion (and slowing us down), yet, they're still being the loose end that I predicted them to be...and it's just......aggh, hair-pulling frustration. That I would rather someone else do, in the first place. Or do the damn thing myself.

  8. #1008
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And so you know, the following are my understandings of the topic, and are not intended as judgments of you as a person. You're clearly bright, and your responses were well-thought out and appreciated.
    Likewise.

    Anyway, there's a lot to respond to, here, but I think it might be better to focus on a few of these. ...

    So in a sense, the inducement into following our logical chain has a self-serving purpose as well - I want to see you go through it to make sure I haven't left anything out.
    Wanna know what this feels like to an INTJ? It feels like you're stealing our thought processes for your own selfish purposes. Usually, for the first few iterations, it can be cool. After that, however, it becomes tiresome. We have our own projects, or perhaps even OUR project, to finish, and that's being postponed as you refine your understanding. Something to watch out for in your communication style.
    And you wanna know what that feels like to me? No offense, but it comes across as slightly egomaniacal - you're more concerned with your own personal glory and conceit of intellectual superiority than helping a fellow team member solve a problem to mutual benefit. That you don't respect me as a coworker enough to believe my figuring out something will lead to greater future benefit raises the Ti/Fe competitive drive very quickly.
    [I'll be speaking plainly, here ... no offense is intended, I just wish to be clear about the impression this makes on me.]
    This bit is quite interesting. Notice how I included earlier quotes.

    You are coming across just as rather insecure. What personal glory? I don't give a sh-t. I'm either right or I am wrong. If I'm right, I don't "win." If I'm wrong, I don't "lose." The facts, the objects, the process is either right or wrong, works or doesn't work. What conceit of intellectual superiority? Just because you happen to feel insulted should I correctly point out an error on your part? Just because I speak directly rather than circuitously? As you point out later, Fi/Te isn't sensitive to the social hierarchy. That's very true. Even if someone tries to praise me for being very intelligent/smart/skilled/adept/whatever, it doesn't boost my ego. Such compliments fall flat for most INTJs.

    Because of that INTJ-ish perception, I don't care for your ego in the Ti/Fe way, and ironically you regard my approach as egotistical.

    Helping out a fellow team member? You're projecting a bit, here. At what point does "helping out" devolve from showing someone the ropes and developing a level of understanding, to complete handholding? Keep in mind, this is differing perspectives: after several iterations of questions, I'm fairly sure you understand, but you aren't sure you understand, and the questions keep coming. The trick, when this is an issue, is to find a balance. Ti wants to keep investigating, but at some point, actual work needs to be done. Sometimes actually doing the work, and making a mistake, makes matters more clear to all parties involved, and results in a faster solution than debating about what mistakes might be made.

    This is what people mean by the NiTe arrogance. When you even intimate that you're holding an attitude like the above, practically every fiber in my being is in fighting mode. I know I'm just as smart and capable as you or anyone in the organization, and if you're challenging me like that, I'll make every effort to either affirmatively prove that, or barring that option, every effort to knock you down a peg or twenty to make sure you don't make the mistake of crossing me like that again. I'd advise you to take that into account when considering your communication style as well - that's a real easy way to make some very tenacious enemies, and I think we can agree that this is to no one's benefit.
    Except I'm not challenging you in the least. You're reading it as a "challenge." I do not deliberately try to make people feel bad about themselves or inferior to me. They do that perfectly fine all on their own, and then blame me for making them feel that way. (Again, I'm reporting my perspective, not "the truth.") I do my best to avoid fights over such stupid things. If someone gets all ants in the pants over something I said, I'll sincerely apologize, and explain my social ineptitude. (And there's a very good reason I'm not a lawyer, eh?!)

    I don't know if I speak for most ENTPs, but I personally don't believe in much of intellectual property law, because I think we're better off if everyone has access to as much information as possible, since 6.7 billion heads work far better than one does.
    Actually, NTs in general would agree with you. Read the original quote: my objection is not to your gaining access to my knowledge and information, but rather demanding my time. I don't object to the initial iterations (which could be several), but the inconclusive, never-ending nature of it. At some point I have to say "enough" and get back to other responsibilities, unless my primary responsibility is to train you. My responsibilities and deadlines do not just disappear because you could use my help. I have to judge how much time I have to spare.

    Just remember - we hate the social hierarchy, but we're very attuned to it. It seems like Te/Fi isn't as much so. If you want to improve your communication with the Fe-lensed, make sure to consider the hierarchical context of what you're saying. If you get a response that seems completely illogical, it's likely that you came across as aggressively trying to establish dominance in that context.
    I think this is very good advice. Really and for true, I don't pay any attention to that hierarchical twaddle, and variations of that are where the Ti/Fe folks get all upset. For the most part, I've identified it with Fe, but it seems that I need to keep an eye out for it w/r to Ti, too.

    From my perspective, it seems like one can make a post (say about INTJ or whatever type), and have several other INTJs chime in, all on a mutual quest for self-analysis and self-discovery, perhaps marveling that for once they've found other people who think like they do themselves, and some Ti/Fe person will come along and insult the INTJs (or whatever Fi/Te type) for being so full of themselves and having to prove how INTJ they are to the world. (Heck, sometimes even self-labeled INTJs do that, which more than anything makes me doubt their INTJ-ness, precisely because they're being sensitive to the social hierarchy, as you put it.) The INTJs, however, are just having fun in their INTJ way. They aren't raining on anyone's parade, though I'm sure that it's easy to for those sensitive to it to read it that way.

    So, just as it would behoove Fi/Te to perhaps be more aware of hierarchical interpretations of their speech, it would behoove Ti/Fe to perhaps be more aware that perhaps half of the world doesn't give a crap about their social standing.

    [Hmm. I'm suddenly wondering if there's an analogous Fi/Te-style hierarchy, of which Ti/Fe is unaware and does not honor. Or more specifically, I wonder what conventions that are common between Fi/Te folks are not honored by Ti/Fe.]

    Te comes out very quickly and very agitated. I start barking orders and do not tolerate dissent at that point. It's teamed up with Fe for sure - when people start getting out of line, I get on them for not following the objective. A stressed ENTP often looks like a particularly assholish INTJ - it's not our best moment.
    Just my impression, but I'm fairly sure this isn't Te. "Barking orders" is how Fe users might characterize Te, just as "proffering meaningless platitudes" is how Te users might characterize Fe. Neither is true. Rather, these stereotypes are how each emulates the other.

    ...........................

    One last thing, which I want to take out of the context of prior discussions and have it in its own context: the source of NiTe arrogance. It may be difficult to believe, but INTJs are really very unsure of themselves, we lack confidence, and in general would really rather hang back and be unobtrusive and observe and learn. The INTJ is very afraid of saying something wrong. Yet, Ni eventually comes to understand certain things very well. Extremely well, even. The INTJ becomes a true expert. (Immature INTJs can believe that one is an expert when it is far from the truth ... that's a different matter, that does not contradict the point I am making here.) For those things in which the INTJ is a true expert, a different personae appears, however briefly, when an issue to which the expertise pertains arises. We just know we are correct, our knowledge and understanding has been tested, perhaps for years or even decades. We also know what we do not know, and we don't make assertions on that.

    Now consider the selection effect: when we are unsure, we are silent. When we are very certain of ourselves and the truth of what we intend to say, we speak. Of course we're going to come across as arrogant pricks if we're not careful! But it's a selection effect: unlike INTP, for example, we don't go asking questions and musing aloud. We stay silent, trying to develop our understanding. You will only hear us when we are "being arrogant." The degree of self-confidence that it takes to overcome our natural reticence and shyness is rather high.

    That's the NiTe arrogance, in a nutshell.

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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Likewise.

    Anyway, there's a lot to respond to, here, but I think it might be better to focus on a few of these. ...



    [I'll be speaking plainly, here ... no offense is intended, I just wish to be clear about the impression this makes on me.]
    This bit is quite interesting. Notice how I included earlier quotes.

    You are coming across just as rather insecure. What personal glory? I don't give a sh-t. I'm either right or I am wrong. If I'm right, I don't "win." If I'm wrong, I don't "lose." The facts, the objects, the process is either right or wrong, works or doesn't work. What conceit of intellectual superiority? Just because you happen to feel insulted should I correctly point out an error on your part? Just because I speak directly rather than circuitously? As you point out later, Fi/Te isn't sensitive to the social hierarchy. That's very true. Even if someone tries to praise me for being very intelligent/smart/skilled/adept/whatever, it doesn't boost my ego. Such compliments fall flat for most INTJs.
    It might seem insecure, but in fact, it has little to do with any sort of conscious thought. It's simply the first reaction to this sort of situation. It's not higher cognition in any sense; it's evolved apes acting like primates.

    Because of that INTJ-ish perception, I don't care for your ego in the Ti/Fe way, and ironically you regard my approach as egotistical.
    Yup, because (and I know you'll hate this) you're not being a team player.

    Helping out a fellow team member? You're projecting a bit, here. At what point does "helping out" devolve from showing someone the ropes and developing a level of understanding, to complete handholding? Keep in mind, this is differing perspectives: after several iterations of questions, I'm fairly sure you understand, but you aren't sure you understand, and the questions keep coming. The trick, when this is an issue, is to find a balance. Ti wants to keep investigating, but at some point, actual work needs to be done. Sometimes actually doing the work, and making a mistake, makes matters more clear to all parties involved, and results in a faster solution than debating about what mistakes might be made.
    At the same time, there are instances where five more minutes of deliberation saves three hours of effort. Neither of us can know for sure what situation the current one is.

    Except I'm not challenging you in the least. You're reading it as a "challenge." I do not deliberately try to make people feel bad about themselves or inferior to me. They do that perfectly fine all on their own, and then blame me for making them feel that way. (Again, I'm reporting my perspective, not "the truth.") I do my best to avoid fights over such stupid things. If someone gets all ants in the pants over something I said, I'll sincerely apologize, and explain my social ineptitude. (And there's a very good reason I'm not a lawyer, eh?!)
    Once again, this isn't anything conscious. This is straight limbic system. The social context is everything here. You might think you're simply stating a fact, but at the same time, you're also communicating innumerable social cues. These are just as real and integral to being human as objective thought.

    Actually, NTs in general would agree with you. Read the original quote: my objection is not to your gaining access to my knowledge and information, but rather demanding my time. I don't object to the initial iterations (which could be several), but the inconclusive, never-ending nature of it. At some point I have to say "enough" and get back to other responsibilities, unless my primary responsibility is to train you. My responsibilities and deadlines do not just disappear because you could use my help. I have to judge how much time I have to spare.
    Then that's the point you simply back off. I'm not ever going to consider myself a subordinate - that's sickening in a very real way. As such, when you're trying to push me in a Te manner, I'm going to respond equally with Ti. While you take umbrage with my demands for your time, what you may not realize is that by imposing upon my thought process, you've also made demands on my time as well. At that point, turnabout's fair play.

    I think this is very good advice. Really and for true, I don't pay any attention to that hierarchical twaddle, and variations of that are where the Ti/Fe folks get all upset. For the most part, I've identified it with Fe, but it seems that I need to keep an eye out for it w/r to Ti, too.
    Probably even more so. You're dealing with a set of cognitive pathways that still thinks losing means death by wild animal.

    From my perspective, it seems like one can make a post (say about INTJ or whatever type), and have several other INTJs chime in, all on a mutual quest for self-analysis and self-discovery, perhaps marveling that for once they've found other people who think like they do themselves, and some Ti/Fe person will come along and insult the INTJs (or whatever Fi/Te type) for being so full of themselves and having to prove how INTJ they are to the world. (Heck, sometimes even self-labeled INTJs do that, which more than anything makes me doubt their INTJ-ness, precisely because they're being sensitive to the social hierarchy, as you put it.) The INTJs, however, are just having fun in their INTJ way. They aren't raining on anyone's parade, though I'm sure that it's easy to for those sensitive to it to read it that way.
    Yeah... but you don't get to live in a bubble separate from the rest of us.

    So, just as it would behoove Fi/Te to perhaps be more aware of hierarchical interpretations of their speech, it would behoove Ti/Fe to perhaps be more aware that perhaps half of the world doesn't give a crap about their social standing.
    Sure... but that don't make the world go 'round, either. xSTJs still care about social hierarchy.

    [Hmm. I'm suddenly wondering if there's an analogous Fi/Te-style hierarchy, of which Ti/Fe is unaware and does not honor. Or more specifically, I wonder what conventions that are common between Fi/Te folks are not honored by Ti/Fe.]
    Martyrdom. Ti/Fe thinks it's the stupidest thing in the world. Te/Fi canonizes them.

    Just my impression, but I'm fairly sure this isn't Te. "Barking orders" is how Fe users might characterize Te, just as "proffering meaningless platitudes" is how Te users might characterize Fe. Neither is true. Rather, these stereotypes are how each emulates the other.
    It's more than just that. I have to start drawing out what I want to do, because I can't manipulate it in my head anymore - I have to see a physical manifestation of the variables in order to move them into the desired pattern.

    ...........................

    One last thing, which I want to take out of the context of prior discussions and have it in its own context: the source of NiTe arrogance. It may be difficult to believe, but INTJs are really very unsure of themselves, we lack confidence, and in general would really rather hang back and be unobtrusive and observe and learn. The INTJ is very afraid of saying something wrong. Yet, Ni eventually comes to understand certain things very well. Extremely well, even. The INTJ becomes a true expert. (Immature INTJs can believe that one is an expert when it is far from the truth ... that's a different matter, that does not contradict the point I am making here.) For those things in which the INTJ is a true expert, a different personae appears, however briefly, when an issue to which the expertise pertains arises. We just know we are correct, our knowledge and understanding has been tested, perhaps for years or even decades. We also know what we do not know, and we don't make assertions on that.

    Now consider the selection effect: when we are unsure, we are silent. When we are very certain of ourselves and the truth of what we intend to say, we speak. Of course we're going to come across as arrogant pricks if we're not careful! But it's a selection effect: unlike INTP, for example, we don't go asking questions and musing aloud. We stay silent, trying to develop our understanding. You will only hear us when we are "being arrogant." The degree of self-confidence that it takes to overcome our natural reticence and shyness is rather high.

    That's the NiTe arrogance, in a nutshell.
    We're aware of this. Why do you think we go into rapid-fire questioning when we're in attack mode? We'll eventually hit an area you're unsure on, and that contrast with the self-assured confidence delegitimizes the latter in the eyes of onlookers. If you were SO sure about one thing, but can't even discuss something tangentially related, how do we know you weren't full of hot air?

    Yes, it's annoying, cruel and counterproductive. We're pricks like that. Best not to get on our bad side, that's all.

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    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yup, because (and I know you'll hate this) you're not being a team player.
    teIam.

    At the same time, there are instances where five more minutes of deliberation saves three hours of effort. Neither of us can know for sure what situation the current one is.
    Ah ... again the misunderstanding. I'm not talking 5 minutes of discussion. I'm talking 1 to 4 hours of discussion. Oh, you thought we'd save three hours?! Ha!


    Then that's the point you simply back off. I'm not ever going to consider myself a subordinate - that's sickening in a very real way. As such, when you're trying to push me in a Te manner, I'm going to respond equally with Ti. While you take umbrage with my demands for your time, what you may not realize is that by imposing upon my thought process, you've also made demands on my time as well. At that point, turnabout's fair play.
    You're regarding yourself as a subordinate, and reacting to that. There is no fair play except in your own mind.

    Yeah... but you don't get to live in a bubble separate from the rest of us.
    Yeah, but that doesn't justify a single derogatory comment you might make, ever.

    Martyrdom. Ti/Fe thinks it's the stupidest thing in the world. Te/Fi canonizes them.
    I don't buy this. Is there something else you're talking about that you perceive as "martyrdom"? Might I know it by a different name?

    We're aware of this. Why do you think we go into rapid-fire questioning when we're in attack mode? We'll eventually hit an area you're unsure on, and that contrast with the self-assured confidence delegitimizes the latter in the eyes of onlookers. If you were SO sure about one thing, but can't even discuss something tangentially related, how do we know you weren't full of hot air?

    Yes, it's annoying, cruel and counterproductive. We're pricks like that. Best not to get on our bad side, that's all.
    Not getting on anyone's bad side, regardless of type, is usually a good goal.
    An even better goal is to not have a "bad side" oneself.

    I should caution you that not all INTJs have the limited skillset of those with whom you appear to have experience.

    I'm very aware of the "delegitimizing ... in the eyes of onlookers" tactic. Pulling this stunt earns no points with me, and delegitimizes your arguments, in my eyes.

    Have a care: using your lawyer-style superpowers has a price, just as my INTJ-style superpowers have their price.

    .....

    I'm not buying the "limbic" arguments you are making about your gut reaction to INTJ style statements. If a large subset of people are unaware of these same social cues, there's something else going on. It might be a gut reaction, but there's something learned or unlearned about it. Wouldn't it be better for both sides to actually understand this about each other, rather than just insist that one's own perspective should have priority?

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