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  1. #91
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Or rather through. Which was the point many posters here were trying to make.

    As we have these intense emotional responses, the (mature) NF tries to understand where these emotions are coming from and why they were pertinent in that particular situation. To work around our emotional responses sounds to me like a way to discredit ourselves and our purpose. There's a reason we feel and to water it down or to "work around it" sounds like some... uh... real Prufrock oblivion, if you catch my reference. Further, I'm not suggesting that Feelers in the midst of an emotional episode should be allowed to throw temper tantrums or be obnoxiously morally superior but that properly analyzing our feelings (which I think has been paralleled with "whiny" somewhere in this thread ) to understand ourselves and the world around us would be more effective in achieving a more acute logical truth - our purpose? - than merely finding ways to downplay our own strengths or suppress them. I know that wasn't the implication in your post, Seymour. This is more generally directed. *Tangent* Feeling isn't unnecessary fluff, or icing contrary to what most of this forum presumes. It's a valid judging function that's most useful, like Thinking, when tailored in a constructive way.
    Heh... you are correct, that wasn't what I was meaning to imply. In my example, I still take things too personally and need to time to process my reactions. Therefore, I try to structure things so that it's not an issue for others. That doesn't mean I don't still have those reactions, or that my reactions don't demand serious internal consideration on occasion.

    So, what I meant by "work around" was to be an adult about dealing with our own needs and reactions. Sometimes, I think we have the expectation that through willpower or effort an issue (like being over-sensitive to criticism) will go away if we flog ourselves about it enough. Accepting what we can't change and learning how to mitigate its negatives and embrace its positives is part of maturing.

    So, don't think we disagree here (nor did you say we did). Also, agree that Fi tends to get a bad rap.

    (I like Eliot, myself... did several papers on him for my English major.)

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I've thought a little more about how strong emotion can be beneficial. There's been a few general comments in this thread throughout, and even in other threads, on how not acting on say, sympathy, makes the feeling somewhat useless. What's the point of feeling emotion deeply for someone/something if you cannot act on it positively? Is it just tripping you up and serving no purpose?

    I've decided that is too literal and practical an angle to expect of an NF. That's completely at odds with idealism. Idealism is not about immediate practical action in response to an emotion. The emotion is processed, meaning is gleaned from it, feeling is refined, and it aids in building a larger vision of what is Good vs. what is Bad. So an intense feeling in the moment may have no positive, immediate results, but in the long run, it can help build a sort of theory for positive change in the future, and the NF may act on that. NFs are future-oriented, after all. Of course, I am coming from an NFP perspective, but I imagine it is a similar process for NFJs, as far as creating an abstract response that is not always immediate or directly connected to the initial emotional stimuli.

    And now a word from our sponsor, Carl Jung
    Originally Posted by Jung on Fi
    While an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in appropriate words and deeds, and thus quickly gets back to normal again, an intensive sympathy, being shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and is simply benumbed. It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character, quite unrelated to either the subject herself or to the object that provoked the outburst.

    The Jung quote sounds a lot like what I just went through and commented on in another thread. Except that I wouldn't say that I had an intensive sympathy but rather was shocked into a speechlessness that couldn't be relieved. I went so deeply into feeling that I couldn't speak to the issue at hand because to do so would have made matters much worse, I felt. I couldn't have imagined having to deal with any more intensive feeling in that moment. I had to process all of my feelings and I couldn't do it then, not a chance. I'm not saying my next act was heroic by any means but it came about unexpectedly only after I vented all my frustrations and anger internally, and with some help from some friends, for three days. I finally was able to see the right path.

    So what you say about not having a reaction in the moment but only build on it later feels so true for me. The emotion was processed and meaning was gleaned from it. If the emotion had just spilled out all over the place, then the opportunity to heal the rift would have been lost.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Could you expand on this?
    Well, I was very science orientated growing up, I thought about lot of things and tried to make theories fit in my world view, but I never focused on thinking about myself. When I did, it was enough to know the popular idea behind psychotherapy. You know, we all know the principles, they are all over the popular culture, tv, magazines and so on. Then I just went by a hunch that there is some point in all that, and I took my scientific approach and applied it to my very vague idea about self-therapy. I started thinking about my problems and had all these theories about them.

    Like, for example, I was very awkward socially. I traced it back to childhood. There was a cold relationship with my dad, the divorce of my parents which led to me losing all of my friends (as we had to move away), there also was this new responsibility that I was forced to take as the oldest of the children which made me lose my childishness overnight. And then there was listening to both mom and dad talking shit about each other after the divorce. Anyhow, all these things had led me up to the point where I had no trust in relationships and I saw people scheming, stupid, irrational and sometimes evil.

    Now, it might seem easy to collect those facts about your life, but when I did it, it wasn't. It's like I was blind to them, I knew everything had happened like that, but I never connected them in this way. Now I saw that my failure was not mine at all, I was furious. I wrote down all my thoughts about all this and it was black and white for a long time, but at some point I started seeing their perspective and started forgiving them. I'd say the smartest thing I did was to write it down since I could actually see the perspective changing, and I could go back and check what part of my conclusions was not true and what was.

    Well, then I did some dream analysis. I don't know if it is as efficient, I don't dream that much, but it did give me some fresh ideas. One thing that I realized was that I hadn't dreamed during the time I was numb. Then I realized I had stopped drawing too. Then I learned to draw again.

    Overlapping these two "therapies" there was the existential anxiety. I didn't believe in anything so I didn't have any easy solution for it. I think this was the hardest to tackle with my methods. How can you find meaning through science? But, it kinda dissolved itself as I was getting better and making friends. At first the friendships seemed to be either "shallow" in a way it was fun but nothing more, or they were tools for the therapy. I might add that as a tool, it can backfire. While I did realize a lot about myself, I also lost all of the friends who counseled me at that time. I don't regret it, I am mostly thankful for them to take me forward. The thing is, I still felt like people are letting me down. In time I came to see that they didn't let me down no more than I let them down, it was just something to be accepted. Acceptance is actually very important thing, but the problem is that some things should not be accepted. Like, if I had accepted the way I was, I wouldn't be here now. So, it's like when you have thought things through and you see that there is no way out of this, like it is a natural law, then it must be accepted. You can't fight gravity. But be sure to think it through first.

    Oh, heh, then I had this time I had come to a conclusion I would go and make myself more of an extrovert. Damn, that was a fiasco! But still, I learned something. Again, I accepted the way I am, and was motivated to find a place where my introversion would be somehow fit for the social setting.

    I think these days I don't anymore have existential dilemmas, since I have made this growth into a religion of some sort. I am thoroughly committed to living by the rules I've made for myself, and I believe that the only way I can be happy (this is not really a good word, but I can't think of anything better now) is to learn from my mistakes, and grow. It's like I know I am becoming a better person, so the pain that I have due to my mistakes is meaningful. Oh, that, by the way, is important for me too. They are my mistakes. I see everything as my mistake if it's not obvious that it is someone else's. I take responsibility for things that normally wouldn't be anyone's responsibility. Like, if I live with some people and the mood in the house is bad, I see it in a certain way my problem and responsibility if I hadn't done anything to change it. Still, I don't go just saying them that we need to fix this now. That could make it worse. I wait for a chance to say or do something to subtly steer things to a right direction.

    But, yeah, that's all I can come up with now. I hope you'll get the idea, this wasn't very systematical post. I'm not saying this will work for you, since you might have some other, better methods. For me the jump from empirical science to psychology/ philosophy was a short one.

    EDIT: By the way, what made me start this quest was a shocking feeling of inadequacy, regret, guilt and self-loathing. So, there you have the purpose of feeling. The pain motivated me for years. I am glad for that.

  4. #94
    Junior Member TheGolfCourse's Avatar
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    I mean, I'm not an NF, and I didn't read all of this, but...

    Point? Purpose doesn't necessarily exist in all things and sometimes things exist for their own sake. Perhaps there is no other way it could be for NFs?
    The greatest revenge is living well.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGolfCourse View Post
    Point? Purpose doesn't necessarily exist in all things and sometimes things exist for their own sake. Perhaps there is no other way it could be for NFs?
    Everything in nature serves a purpose. Except toe nails. They are useless.

  6. #96
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    What is the point of feeling things so intensely?
    there is no point. thats why its an F thing
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    there is no point. thats why its an F thing
    I'd love to hear what you mean by this. And I think I know. But, go on.

  8. #98
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    there is no point. thats why its an F thing
    There is a point. Understanding the human condition. All human being have emotions that respond to varying degrees of suffering. If channeled into understanding and expression this can help reduce suffering by dismantling the isolating effect that various types of suffering has on people. Also understanding from inside what certain kinds of suffering feels like, how it distorts the perception of the world and self, and what kinds of words and experiences exacerbate it, the individual who has suffered can better reduce this experience in others.

    The worst pain I have felt I have channeled into my artistic work. If my life had been easy I might have mental skill to create patterns with some charm, but I could never take on the subject matter that I do. The people who can connect with it and to whom it is relevant will gain a greater benefit than the experience of being delightfully charmed by a more sheltered, narrow expression.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #99
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Well, to take a somewhat different tact, there is empirical evidence in moral psychological research that suggests a connection between empathy- which they characterize as the affect of empathy, or empathic feelings/emotions- and altruistic behavior. So those who feel empathy in certain situations (which not all people do, and some take stronger prompting to induce such feelings...which I imagine is probably continuous with thinker/feeler dichotomies, to use an MBTI-laden interpretation) are FAR more liable to act in "prosocial" or other-helping ways than those with no such feelings. In fact, it is because of the power of such feelings to cause the subject to eschew many self-serving behavioral options in favor of the seemingly altruistic behavior in a given situation that the argument for the existence of altruism has any empirical force (in the face of egoist arguments coming out of evolutionary-biology-informed ethical theories and those already present in the philosophical canon.)

    There are also many other instances in which the central importance of emotion for ethics is highlighted. One instance, off the top of my head, is the importance that psychological researchers have identified for emotions in the process of ethical reasoning (which has HUGE implications for theories, not only of ethics, but also of education, practical reasoning, and political deliberation.)

    So, emotions are important, and those of you who feel them more acutely and more often, for whatever reason, are more likely to help others than your colder counterparts.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #100
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    I'd love to hear what you mean by this. And I think I know. But, go on.
    id rather not go on
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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