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  1. #21
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel like we're just slightly missing each other's point proteammix. Share with me what you mean about FJ's "not biting". I interpreted your comment to mean FJ's were staying cool and out of this thread, exercising good restraint and not getting involved in an Fe discussion that could become "charged".

    My response was to point out that I didn't see much to upset anyone and maybe that's why it's been quiet; the thread title is very cool sounding, and indeed, the opening post is vague enough to send people clicking on to the next thread in no time flat (no offense intended there Kalach!)

    I am very interested to understand exactly where your thoughts are on this proteanmix. I admire you a great deal and think you have many illuminative contributions.

    Help me if I have missed what you are trying to tell me. Do you feel that Fe gets a pretty unjust treatment on the forums?
    Yes, your interpretation is correct, but the reason for why FJs may be staying out of it I don't think are what you've listed and I'm not going to state why because I'm pretty sure heaps of hellfire will rain upon my head.

    As to your second point about nothing in this thread being particularly incendiary, I could see how Andy's posts may be, but still no one (as of yet...there may still be a response) has responded, except goodewitch.

    As to you third question, and this just may be a sign of how long I've been on the forum and not necessarily indicative of anything else, but yes, I do think Fe is greatly misinterpreted and misunderstood (sometimes willfully so I believe), and I no longer have any vested interest in making my perspective on it understood.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #22
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Ok, seriously, now you have to say why. Or I will rain heaps of hellfire upon your head for NOT telling.

  3. #23
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks for the response and for helping me understand better protean. What I hear you saying basically, is that even when you share (on the forum) about what is close to your heart and what Fe means to you, no one seems to either understand, believe or pay attention to what you are saying - so any continued exploration of the topic seems pointless. People either don't get it or just don't WANT to get it. And you don't want to be a continued contributor to this perpetuation of bias that is never really resolved no matter what is said.

    Refine this further if I'm off.

    I do agree Andy's posts have potential to "get something started". I blew past his first one due to the spelling errors, but indeed, both seemed like the rote, boring standard objections to Fe that come up time and time again (no offense to you either Andy!) "All Fe users are surface, manipulative and controlling etc etc."

    If anything, a definition of Fe suffers from trying to put into words what is indeed a "vibration in the ether", something so intangible and so precious that it stirs the heart and soul of the one encapsulated in it. That reaching out to meet another.

    Let me ponder this a bit more too. Perhaps it is about not wanting to cast one's "pearls before swine" ...

  4. #24
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    And thank you for making me dig deeper into this thread, to suss out the danger zones and do a better job of putting myself in your shoes.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Well -- I can make you feel, that's for sure. I am powerful in that way, definitely. I think of this as my job -- I'm good at it, therefore, it's what I should be doing. It never occurred to me to use it on somebody who didn't come to me and ask for it, though. And it never occurred to me that people might use it for bad. I do understand that some people can't handle too much emotion being generated in them all at once, and I back off if I sense that they find it destabilizing, and I let them set the pace. Best case scenario, my finger is on the pulse and I'm responsive to that. The other way it can be problematic is that people get addicted to it, and they can tap me out and then be frustrated that there isn't any more. So I have to be careful with it.

    Is that what you're talking about when you talk about Fe?

  6. #26
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Actually the annoying part is that Carl Sagan really didn't say that, so the whole framework of the thread starts off with a lie; to what ends and for what purpose, I am unsure. Although it will get indexed by Google and in a few years, some fool is going to quote it as fact, not fiction.
    That's hilarious! And it's funneh coz it's tru.

    The original metaphor isn't mine, but I liked it, and decided to post to see if it resonated. And it seemed so obvious to me that I was taking an approach that problematized the issue but tried not to stigmatize and did want to be truthful and scientific... seemed suitable to include tag that allowed that aspect to be seen... so I attributed the geeky, objectifying statement to Carl. Sorry Carl. I'll have you saying something better in the next post.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes, your interpretation is correct, but the reason for why FJs may be staying out of it I don't think are what you've listed and I'm not going to state why because I'm pretty sure heaps of hellfire will rain upon my head.
    I dunno, y'know. I speculate that as lovely as FJs are, you guys don't actually have immediately to hand the tools for describing your processes.

    Fi has a built in Tannoy function, Te. Te will honk out to the world what it understands as true, and it renders those truths as truths of objects and processes, so Fi gets to be identified as a thing and its function in the world gets to be described, indeed, is not just described, but asserted to be and get over it people because it's real.

    Fe has Ti. L'iL Ti. Hidden. Personal. Not inclined to long speeches. Really, actually, what an Fe user has for doing PR on Fe is... Fe. (Or Ne or Se, but those are just as bad when it comes to announcing truth.)

    Egregious insult time: the FJs don't spend very much time announcing the truth of Fe... because they can't. You do spend time working Fe, creating zones and connections and happiness and so on. And when it comes to questions of spilling the beans, telling the truth, you can riff off other people, showing a little here and a little there and then taking off to think about it for themselves, or turning back to the comfort of friends.

    You guys are the authorities on the subject, but more via a body of practice than a body of knowledge. And bloodless discussion isn't immediately part of the practice. (At least, so it seems when the discussion is supposed to look like an objectifying, TJ point of view.)




    (Burn lil incendiary device, burn! Burn it all! Or, can't we all be friends?)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #27
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Default Reasons to hate Fe-users, or not?

    Sort of following Andy's examples, a Fe-user is considered an annoyance to person A when asking for person B's benefit, but if A suddenly needs help that Fe-user is suddenly perceived as a great friend. Argh. :steam:

    Also in my life, I keep tit for tat, which can annoy people. I garnered help and support when A needed it, but now B needs it and I want A to help as I think A would do a good job in the situation presented and because it's morally right (by my morals) for A to help others back. If there is repeated rejection of helping others including myself, than I will reject A's request for further help in the future. I think most people do this, but perhaps Fe-users do it more often. I am wondering what others think.

    Andy is right that the greater good may not be the actual good in a situation, and Fe-users may push others to do what they consider the greater good is.

    These are my opinions, so take them as such, please.
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    The tiny bits of Fe I have felt feel oddly like this.

    Fi seems to be mostly quiet with large flushes of very intense emotion, accompanied by lots of indirect information and a spike of fiery, passionate caring that wells up from my middle. It is almost painful at times as that Fi open caring opens up the potential for real injury.

    Fe is much more consistent and much more focused externally-but "feels" more uniform. Like I and they sit across from each other and send waves of love back and forth. But not Fi pain/love, just warm, deep, caring, all focused on them. Physiologically it feels like waves of warmth and relaxation and happy emo. It also is reinforcing between me and the Fe user. The longer we sit, the more the "invisible" connection strengthens as each wave builds constructively. How do I know it is Fe? Cause the ENTP I was doing this with said " I feel like you understand me so well." I have known a lot of entps and never heard that before...

    I cant find it most of the time though. Wish I could.

  9. #29
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    Sort of following Andy's examples, a Fe-user is considered an annoyance to person A when asking for person B's benefit, but if A suddenly needs help that Fe-user is suddenly perceived as a great friend. Argh. :steam:

    Also in my life, I keep tit for tat, which can annoy people. I garnered help and support when A needed it, but now B needs it and I want A to help as I think A would do a good job in the situation presented and because it's morally right (by my morals) for A to help others back. If there is repeated rejection of helping others including myself, than I will reject A's request for further help in the future. I think most people do this, but perhaps Fe-users do it more often. I am wondering what others think.

    Andy is right that the greater good may not be the actual good in a situation, and Fe-users may push others to do what they consider the greater good is.

    These are my opinions, so take them as such, please.
    Yes, there is truth to this. I main point I was driving at was that as much as Fe is driven to sort out peoples problems, it does it by using people - and people don't like being used, even if it is for the greater good.

    I had an arnte (ESFJ, I believe) who was very politically active. She even managed to set up a care home for the mentally handicapped that got named after her. On the wide scale, she was mostly a good thing, but wouldn't want to actually know her. She got so caught up in doing all these things that she lost track of how much she made the people around her suffer, especially her husband. She turned into the sterotyped old battleaxe, really. She had some pretty fixed ideas as well, but that was the Si talking rather than Fe.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I don't do any of that organizing for charity and pushing people around, etc. stuff, so ... *shrug*

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