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  1. #21
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post


    I'm not sure if I know what you mean by that...
    I don't think emotional blackmail is a type thing, but I have known people on the receiving end of it. It is a form of emotional abuse. It involves an implicit threat if the person's wishes are not met. Suicide can be used as emotional blackmail. The suicidal person leaves the other person in the relationship threatened by the idea that if their desires are not met, they might kill themselves and it will be the partner's fault. Or another example I can think of is a married couple that lives with an underlying threat that if one partner is not kept happy they might leave and take the children to another country never to be seen again. Perhaps implicit threats of cheating are also used. I would never associate that as fundamentally with a particular type any more than I would other forms of abuse. I feel badly for anyone on the receiving end of such a thing. It is a painful trap.

    I strongly dislike manipulation and am drawn towards direct people. I can kind of read sub-text, but often take in so much that it becomes dizzying and I don't really know what to do with it. This is also partly because I don't tend to have a sense of certitude about it. I can just feel it is off, have a sense of it in a way that I can't put into words, but can't read it in a specific way that I find particularly useful except that I seem to have an ability to calm people down in my reaction to it. My mother was not manipulative, nor was anyone in my immediate family, so I didn't learn it that way, but have observed various things. Being direct is better overall, I think.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  2. #22
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    To clarify, I don't think being directive is the same as being manipulative. Covertly directive might well become manipulation, but that's different.

    We should also make a difference between a person working on their own and a person working with others, maybe particularly if the person is INJ because working on your own involves a lot of interior intuiting which is visible to you, and that's fine and deep and good, but which isn't visible when you're working with other people. When you're working with other people, unless they're particularly insightful all they get to see is the auxiliary e function. So, for me, other people get to see me being dogmatically controlling, asserting that this, this and this are true and lets move on people because it's already decided. Privately, what's actually happening is I've taken a starting point, probably which arose from, and in conjunction with, a lot of background speculation, and a lot more focused speculation is now going to take place because a step in the direction I chose has been taken.

    But for me, all of this stuff is about plans and strategies and best uses of time and resources for the accomplishment of some constructive goal not immediately related to people. People may take part or benefit, but technically at least, they're not the immediate object of contemplation nor is any change in their personal state the direct goal of the plan. They are, to be overly simplistic, contributors to what comes to pass rather than outcomes of what comes to pass.

    And for INFJ...?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #23
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    My gut instinct is that infjs don't have too much energy to expend on manipulation. We'd rather just help you do what you want to do, than make you do what we want you to do. Of course, there are the unhealthy people of all types who manipulate; and I know how to manipulate, but mostly it's inadvertantly done when I 'help' you have what I perceive you want to have because I know you need it, even if you don't.

    But really, overall, I think Fe doms can count manipulation as more of their nemesis, whereas an infj would struggle more with paranoia, or feeling lonely but helpless to change it, or perhaps being too stubborn.........
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  4. #24
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Could you possibly give a real-life example? Because if I do that, I want to correct it, but I'm not positive I know what you're talking about. But I am having trouble with a younger friend because she accuses me of always knowing better. It makes me feel bad because I feel like I DO know better and I could save her a lot of time and frustration if she would try it as I suggest it, but I don't by any means intend to force her or be disappointed in her if she doesn't. Sometimes I learn that I didn't know what I was talking about after all and the other person shows me something new.

    I've thought a lot about Kalach's question and I still don't know the answer.
    Sure, Tilty.
    Basically, at the moment, I've been trying to start small business, but I've had to put that aside for the time being, and return to work. Due to current conditions, the job search has taken longer than anticipated.
    My INFJ friend doesn't always relyse when I'm talking about my troubles, I just want an ear to listen. Instead she gives me advice, and quite forcefully too, when she isn't in full possession of the facts, and doesn't always release I may have already research or tried it, and it isn't a possibility right now, (and talked about it two weeks ago). Not only do I feel like I'm being condescended too, and I don't feel listened to.
    She's so busy telling me to chase after my dreams, and trying to force me to continue with the business, that it seems like her version of reality is completely different to mine. She fails to acknowledge if I continue on with my business plan, I will be on streets. That's what I mean about bending reality.She discounts the very real possibility of me losing everything. She's keeps telling me to push through it, do this and that, without excepting I no longer have the resources to do so. Also I know she isn't listening, because when she repeats things back, it isn't quite what I meant. Some times far from it. Not only that, she poos poos the idea of my returning to my former profession, but without acknowledging it may be my only choice, considering I do not have the time or the money to retrain for a more desirable profession. God knows I love her, and in spite of this wee little issue, she has been there, when most others, who I formerly considered friends, have not. She has done this before, but this time the complete disconnection from reality quite disconcerts me. It's an extreme example, but I can't pull a happy ending from my ass, and satisfy her vision of what should be. It makes me feel ick inside because I have to be quite forceful to get her off topic.
    She can be quite relentless, and pushy.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #25
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodewitch View Post
    Ohhh Hells bells Firey, I can imagine how it must feel like water torture, the slow drip drip drip of an impassioned INFJ on a roll, trying to convince you to see it their way. Its gotta be the most annoying thing ever. But would manipulation , of the kind so cunning that you dont even know its happening be any better?
    Maybe, its better that the INFJ in your life respects you enough to choose to engage you in an open, honest rant of epic proportions, rather than say 'Yes dear' and then go off and do his thing anyway, or manipulate you into agreeing, or worse still, deceive you.
    Or..... maybe not
    LOL, I see your point. I know it's done form a place of caring. What can I say, stop caring so much? It's like being hit with a bull dozer of love, LOL. I can see determination can be one of your best assets, but it's a double edge sword. It can put people's backs up. When you've brought the subject up for the upteenth time, it's like nails on a chalk board.
    It could be the fact, that like you guys, I've mulled over things so much in my mind, it's a bit of a tender spot, so when some one else talks about the same thing, and in a circular thought pattern as well, it's repetition to me. I've already whipped myself plenty over it and it can feel like (unintentional) criticism
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  6. #26
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    This MY experience with INFJ's. You've just discounted my truth, because it isn't congruent with your perception, reinforcing my point. Again INFJ's either don't listen, or dismiss input because it doesn't align with thier reality. No, it's type specific, but in my experience, INFJ's do it far more consistantly then any other type. Occasionally, I wonder if the INFJ's that are currently in my circle have any grips on reality at all.
    Communication starts with listening, if you have already discounted what I have say because it doesn't fit your vision, then that two way, give and take aspect of communication isn't happening, you've let your side down. I can't comminicate if you've stuck a wall up and said that can't be.
    communication starts with articulation. you can displace blame on others for not hearing you, but i've read what you said multiple times. i find what you've said to be incorrect, but more importantly, i find it to be incorrect and presumptuous. but that is exactly what is at stake. in these flare-ups, you presume that you are right and can make claim to what reality is while we infjs must bend reality to fit our perceptions. while we presume to see more than you see, and find your truth to be but a fraction of reality and ultimately a distortion.

    my point was explaining how these distortions happen. i agreed that ixxj must integrate communication/interaction into their vision, and at times that can promote miscommunication, mishearing, and stubbornness. but i subtly or not so-subtly stated that ixxp have their own problems in this regard, bc your words suggest that you do not seem to be aware of this. you act frustrated that i do not give you credit for having an opinion, or taking your interpretation as an absolute truth that can not be criticized or questioned. this is an ongoing tension and what these Fi threads are about. i do not find that you imagined what i said at all, rather you just treated it as an inflammatory remark that was attacking your Fi and thusly your self-identification.

    i think that with Fi and e4 other perspectives are seen as an attempt to change its internal truth which is its strongest identification. especially in e4w5. it can become so defensive and protect itself from imagining other perspectives and fully immersing itself in perceptual experience. that kind of block is a more literal wall than Ni, which is more of a filter with variable sorting techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    To clarify, I don't think being directive is the same as being manipulative. Covertly directive might well become manipulation, but that's different.

    We should also make a difference between a person working on their own and a person working with others, maybe particularly if the person is INJ because working on your own involves a lot of interior intuiting which is visible to you, and that's fine and deep and good, but which isn't visible when you're working with other people. When you're working with other people, unless they're particularly insightful all they get to see is the auxiliary e function. So, for me, other people get to see me being dogmatically controlling, asserting that this, this and this are true and lets move on people because it's already decided. Privately, what's actually happening is I've taken a starting point, probably which arose from, and in conjunction with, a lot of background speculation, and a lot more focused speculation is now going to take place because a step in the direction I chose has been taken.

    But for me, all of this stuff is about plans and strategies and best uses of time and resources for the accomplishment of some constructive goal not immediately related to people. People may take part or benefit, but technically at least, they're not the immediate object of contemplation nor is any change in their personal state the direct goal of the plan. They are, to be overly simplistic, contributors to what comes to pass rather than outcomes of what comes to pass.

    And for INFJ...?
    a few subtle or not-so-subtle encouragements and nudges in a direction are not this "people are my objects to control" agenda. Fe is not Te, it gets pleasure in a different way. Te wants a problem to solve, Fe wants to smooth, even out, facelift, uncramp/massage, etc. it enjoys relating, period, bantering, connecting, playing games, etc, and being good at it is its own reward. it feels like a social mechanic, but in the context of infj, we pick our battles just like intjs do. intjs don't try to control everything, they don't have that kind of energy. especially e4s and e5s. your projects are chosen by your enneagram motivations/defenses + what Fi says is ultimately important (this is after you get tired of just doing whatever is presented to you as the problem and begin to care more about your own specific pet projects). this is like us, but with Ti. we recognize some Ti truths as fundamental, some problems we need to address and improve, they are somehow relevant to us/our-selves or others we care about (e4, e5, and e9), so we start investing our energies in those domains. and when we encounter those problems, we feel practiced and assured that we know what we are doing. sometimes we're wrong, or we can be resistant to feedback that would be useful to us, or we are uncentered and acting out our own stresses and frustrations. yup. but we don't have the energy to build an empire out of people. if that ever happens, there's more happening behind the scenes or not so behind the scenes that involves eps and ejs.

  7. #27
    Senior Member HollyGolightly's Avatar
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    I'm too clumsy to manipulate. I don't bother trying because I know I'll just mess it up ;P And the thought doesn't really enter my head...I don't really want anything bad enough...if someone doesn't do what I want or if I can't get what I want then tough shit. Yeah it would be nice to have whatever it was that I wanted but if I got it by manipulating someone would it really have been worth it? I'm prone to feelings of guilt so I think I'd feel so much worse knowing I had made someone do something for my own personal gain.
    Not saying I don't know how to manipulate. I think anyone could be manipulative if they tried. But I just don't see the point. I was manipulated a lot in the past...not nice, and nobody has the right to do it. Sometimes in life we can't get our own way and sometimes it's not fair...but it's also unfair to use other people to get it.

    I knew a very manipulative INFJ. She pulled on my heart-strings (which isn't hard to do) and that's how she got to me. An INFJ knows how to talk to people. they are good at sussing them out, they are in tune with other people's emotions so if they are of that mind-set they could easily manipulate.
    I have the flu and I'm waffling. Forgive me if none of that made sense.
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  8. #28
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    State that I am,
    Yes, you are attacking me. Telling me I'm incorrect and presumptious is a personal attack. If you start off like that, is it any wonder I then respond with anger, and then cut you off (or lash out)? I'm pretty sure I've stated that using directive language, does get my back up. I will not do what you tell me. I will, more often than not, do what you ask me though.
    You have made a gross asumptions also, by assuming I'm e4 too. Not all Fi doms are e4
    I get the feeling you do understand what I'm talking about, but seem unwilling to change, or at the very least, come to a comprimise, so at this point, I bid you farewell. Engaging with you, only proved my intial assumption.

    Which is a shame, as I respect INFJ, generally thier intentions come from the best of motives.
    Last edited by CrystalViolet; 01-09-2010 at 08:30 PM. Reason: ......
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #29
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    I have actually had a similar experience with an INFJ as FireyPheonix. He (the INFJ) would constantly tell me what I should and shouldn't do and how I should and shouldn't feel. Even if I told him I was fine with what I was doing and OK with how I felt about it, he refused to accept it becuase it didn't match up with how he thought I should be, which was like him. He would also say the opposite of what he felt because he belived the he shouldn't feel certain ways becuase it didn't match up with the idealized image he had created of himself. He was the most confusing person I think I have ever met in my entire life...seriously. He was also a very nice, but imo, horribly misguided person. I also think he was not the healthiest person. I think he had some pretty serious anxiety issues. So I don't think this applies to all INFJ's, but I think perhaps to the unhealthy variety.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
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  10. #30
    Member Goodewitch's Avatar
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    Again, cant speak for all INFJ's, but I do think Tilty Red and Jo Sunshine have a point.
    An INFJ simply cannot ignore another persons values or actions if they conflict with their vision of how things should be. I'm sure some really mature INFJ's can agree to disagree and still like or love another person with differing views,.. however,... some INFJ's will find this almost impossible to do. I personally have this problem. When someone I like and respect throws me a curveball in respect to values or actions, I cannot separate the action/value from that person. I respect them less, and become 'directive'... to use Kalach's descriptive.
    It starts to feel like the end of that freindship/relationship when someones views are sooo conflicting with my own, its like theyre not the same person I liked. You're gonna get this sometimes,.. with INFJ's... some of us simply cannot get past liking on conditions... some of us are very conditional in our like/love. May as well be honest about this less than easy part of being an INFJ.
    However, I have to say, I dont think State was attacking, if I may be so presumptious as to say that for him. I beleive State was basically saying that no ones view of what is the truth of a situation is any more valid than anothers.
    No type has the monoploy on what the truth really is.
    We all have our own.
    Some INFJ's will fight tooth and nail, to make sure that the life they are living is one that is congruent with their vision of what it should be, and unfortuneately, some people in the INFJ's life will be discarded for not fitting into that very narrow tight, and heavilly value laden world view.
    G. x
    My INFJ license is regulary revoked,.. I am a sometime refugee in the INTJ holding centre.

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