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  1. #41
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Okay, I watched the whole thing. Walking into a room and almost smelling the emotional dynamic, I think has strong Ne underpinnings, as well, as that "gut feeling" you get when you first meet some one. I understood where INFPete was coming from. Although, I never really considered my snap decisions about people being judgemental 0.0 ( I mean it is, I just never thought of it that way). It's a shame peace baby took down her post...I agree with much of it. To answer the OP, yeah, it is kinda normal, at least for me. I don't know if I'm quite so protective, but it takes me a while to open up to people. I am beginning to understand why people say they never feel they know me. As one friend said to me, You never tell me how you feel!
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #42

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    I watched the whole video. It was fun, It looked like every time Pete said "wow" to Vicky Jo's statements of Fe's effect on her he was really thinking "that'd suck". I thought they might get it on half way through, she is pretty touchy feely.

    Fi is not that defensive for me.

  3. #43
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Repost:

    I have had a few people PM that they'd like to see this post, so I'll stop being chicken and put it back up.

    I might add too I wasn't trying to read any INFJ / INFP dynamic into it; in fact, it's more about ignoring type and watching the human dynamics.

    Here you go:

    DISCLAIMER: This is MY opinion, my thoughts. I make NO CLAIM that they are 100% accurate. Just trying to illuminate the process of "feeling & perceiving" as we go along in the video. Seeing both of these folks in real life would likely yield more refined results.

    The video opens ... I sense a dynamic at play instantly - a power imbalance and energy mismatch. Pete is slightly uncomfortable, deer in the headlights all of a sudden. I don't doubt that at this second he just wondered, "What have I gotten myself into" but he is trying to appear unruffled and go with the flow. Note the crossed legs, the Buddha legs - for him a place of comfortable repose and groundedness to draw strength from.

    Vicky Jo is now not so confident as she felt a moment before the camera started. But she's working to steady her energy. (Note how she reaches out continually, touching Pete in an effort to get a reassuring response to validate her, to reassure us as viewers that they do indeed share a connection of friendship. Note too how Pete does not really respond to it, in fact I would imagine the touch itself felt almost frosty to Vicky Jo, who was looking for good energy back. And the touch probably felt awkward to Pete, who I believe prefers to keep a wider zone of personal space around himself. I sensed no direct repulsion of the touch, but no sense of appreciation or reciprocation either.) You've got work ahead of you Vicky Jo!

    But I digress. The video is underway. Vicky Jo collects herself quickly, trying to focus her energy and is now projecting out towards Pete. Pete is listening and partially interpreting and also trying to peer into where she is going with her questions. I sense he's not quite sure what VJ will ask, and he's trying to listen whilst feeling a tad bit wary about where this will go.

    VJ is gaining momentum now, definitely feeling her authoritativeness building. She believes herself to be the one with the more masterful communication skills, definitely she's the more animated one anyway! Note the continuation of hand gestures, the touching - she is now attempting to make that connection with Pete in order to elicit responses, to get the information she wants. You almost get a sense she'll yank it out if she has to!

    From his end, Pete is pretty sure that VJ can't "pull one over on him" but he is still a tad skeptical and it shows, which may not please him to know that it's visible. I sense he is not accustomed to having to explain something that seems like such an intrinsic aspect of his being, but he is not unaware of MBTI so has an underlying confidence in that and in who he is emotionally. Nor does he really want to be on camera, but he does want to please VJ in some way by agreeing to this taping. And perhaps there's a noble purpose he's attaching in helping others to understand Fi better - so there's the pull of that wrapped up for him too.

    Notice through the tape that neither Vicky Jo nor Pete really seem to connect, to understand the other. Tolerate the expression of difference, yes. Understand, no. Why? Pete is trying to defend; VJ has an agenda and she herself wants to be understood so she's not really "hearing".

    Around the 7 minute mark, the tension from the beginning has eased. Vicky Jo is letting go of her energetic persona a bit and Pete is allowing more of his personality to show through, rising up to meet the energy of VJ a bit more. Vicky Jo continues to invade Pete's space with the hands. (It's a way for her to feel in control.) Thankfully though, they are more natural towards each other now, and it allows a more natural dynamic to occasionally show through. But when Vicky Jo reverts back to active listening and reflecting back what she thinks she has heard, she's not listening as well as she thinks she is. And Pete is agreeing to understanding through head nods and grunts, but he's not really paying attention and is thinking farther ahead than what she is saying, and indeed is starting to wish he could escape around minute 13. Also around minute 13 too, he's "worn down" somewhat and is letting her in more to his world, but she is still maintaining a persona that enhances his resistance to the sharing of the true self. If VJ were to "seem" more authentic to Pete here, the barriers would drop.

    But that doesn't happen, so you almost get a feeling that Pete is being patient with the rest of the filming, going along, but not expecting to be understood anymore.

    Minute 18 / 19 where they talk about "selfish" - here a flash of moral superiority from VJ. A sense of being proud of her selfless ways. (This is where she feels "superior" to INFP's actually - the most noticeable spot in the video, although there are others.) Interestingly Pete is not picking up on or reacting to any perceived reproach through her choice of words and gestures. Clearly, keeping energy for himself is a strongly held value and she isn't shaking that tree.

    Deeper perceptions: Pete comes across as a man who has been been able to acknowledge his feelings yet is not quick to extend himself to others in a truly deep emotional way, despite feeling like a giving person. Somewhere in his past he has done so and been hurt significantly and now holds this close to his chest. VJ has yet to find what feels like her true purpose and although her work is successful (and she feels a strong mastery over MBTI) she feels somewhat empty. In fact, she wonders how her life came to be focussed around this topic yet without it, starts to lose a sense of who she is in the world.

    Does Pete feel he has been understood - not really
    Is Pete glad the video is over at the end - yes
    Is VJ glad the video is over at the end - yes
    Does VJ think she has done a good job of understanding - yes
    Is VJ sincere in her effort to understand - yes, I think so in her own way
    Is type bias evident in the video - yes, but here I do have inherent bias myself
    Is Pete as forthcoming as he might have been - no

    Who is the more self-confident - Pete, interestingly
    Who is the most reticient to connect - Pete
    Who is the most expressive - VJ, in a compensatory role
    Who has a stronger sense of mastery in their world - VJ
    Who thinks their hand gestures are cool - VJ

    Are Pete and VJ really friends? C'mon, you know this one But they are compatible acquaintances.

    There you go, the inner world of my thoughts EXPOSED for all to see. Like I said, even I don't think this is necessarily 100% accurate, just what I would see, interpret and sense. I would then, in a real world situation, use this data with other data to come to any necessary conclusions.

  4. #44

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    That is an amazing job you have done there, Peacebaby.

  5. #45
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Interesting observations peacebaby, thanks for sharing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren View Post
    There was also something you said earlier about Fe having the words for feeling whereas Fi has a harder time with that. Because I have a good friend whom I'm deeply attracted to (who I believe is Fe sometimes and Fi at others), I've thought about our conversations and how easily expressive he is verbally about feelings for me (he expresses that in indirect ways). I often want to express that and try to but words don't seem adequate to describe the feeling. It can feel 'false' to me to say something short of what I really mean, what I really feel. I find it frustrating that I don't convey how much I feel about him in a way that other types would find much easier to do.
    Yeah, I get this
    I've quoted this a million times, but again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jung on Fi
    In order to communicate with others, introverted feeling has to find an external form not only acceptable to itself, but capable of also arousing parallel feeling in them. Thanks to the relatively great inner (as well as outer) uniformity of human beings, it is actually possible to do this, though the form acceptable to feeling is extraordinarily difficult to find so long as it is still mainly oriented to the fathomless store of primordial images.
    Basically, communicating the feeling can be hard (as subtly is important for accuracy), especially if you have not defined that feeling in words for yourself even. In this sense, observing Fe-doms has helped also. My ENFJs have (unknowingly) schooled me in how to express positive feelings/compliments to people without being too intense or too cool about it. When I was younger, expressing positive emotion was difficult - it made me feel too vulnerable and I didn't even know what was an appropriate way for me to do it (as mimicking still felt fake/cheesey to me). I still struggle with this...

    To another thought earlier expressed about intuition. I trust mine completely, and if I get a certain positive intuitive feeling about someone, I'll run with it. I don't usually hold back and reserve judgment (at least with those I feel most strongly about).

    I don't usually look for confirmation later on after that first gut feeling.
    Some other Fi types say stuff like this also. It may be my life experience that made me feel distrustful of initial feeling/intuitive judgments. In some ways that's good, not to jump to conclusions, in other ways you need to listen to yourself sometimes and not ignore a strong feeling. I'm working on the latter more.

    I do identify with picking up signals and not sending any back (Seymour's post), but I feel like I can turn off the passive radar (by being oblivious & not being that sensitive to a room). It's not like a light switch, but I feel like I OWN my mood, and if I plain don't want to be affected, I won't. Even if I pick up on something, I may choose to disregard it. This can make for seemingly inappropriate non-response at times.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #46
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    haha so many cool answers on this topic. awesome!

    well i have to admit that after watching few Vicky Jo's videos I developed a theory how NFJs move their hands lot more than many other people (of course it's supported by other RL evidence ), i use it now as a typing tool.

  7. #47
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Wow...just....wow....

    I haven't read everyone else's comment because I really did not want other people's feelings to affect my own too much.

    First, the video seemed totally staged. You can tell that she is indeed introverted because she overly relies on her Fe (something INFJs probably do in social situations). Her lack of comfort makes her over-compensate through massive, sweeping gestures, body language, contact. It almost seems as if she over-exaggerated to make a point.

    Probably as a reaction to her overdone Fe, he retreated far into himself. Everytime she swept the air, he held his hands. His gestures, facial features, everything suggests, "Whoa, what the <beep>? I have to be guarded here." Therefore, I completely excuse his lack of public speaking skills because that simply showed us how uncomfortable he was with the whole situation, showing us Fi in the flesh perhaps.

    If it is true that Fi picks up immediately on inauthentic behavior, that would be enough to make his skin crawl.

    I would have thought that Fe would pick up on that immediately and cut the crap. Obviously, I was mistaken.

    Either this woman has extremely poor self-esteem (which she almost admitted to) or she is really inept at dealing with people.

    Strange, strange, strange.

    Anyway, I can relate to both forms, which were demonstrated quite exaggeratedly. When I am watching something, like this movie, I ask myself (What do I think about this? Does it make sense? What can you sense, see, and feel from this?) I felt myself being very analytical and judgmental during the video rather than listening to the substance, so I cannot give you any specifics on what the people said.

    More importantly than what they said is how they acted and behaved and the signals they were sending off. Both made me constantly look at the clock and wonder, "When the eff is this going to be over?!"

    However, I made it through the whole thing, and I realize that was a completely unnatural way to ask. In addition, you don't make the person feel any more comfortable by asking questions like a damn firing squad. And this woman is a professional? Ferk. THIS is supposed to be Fe???? You've got to be <beep>ing me.

    Ugh. Whatever. Thanks for sharing, it was quite interesting, but man. No. Just no.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  8. #48
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Some other Fi types say stuff like this also. It may be my life experience that made me feel distrustful of initial feeling/intuitive judgments. In some ways that's good, not to jump to conclusions, in other ways you need to listen to yourself sometimes and not ignore a strong feeling. I'm working on the latter more.

    I do identify with picking up signals and not sending any back (Seymour's post), but I feel like I can turn off the passive radar (by being oblivious & not being that sensitive to a room). It's not like a light switch, but I feel like I OWN my mood, and if I plain don't want to be affected, I won't. Even if I pick up on something, I may choose to disregard it. This can make for seemingly inappropriate non-response at times.
    it's a potential weakness in introversion, but using Ne/auxiliary E function is exploratory. i find the approach, which is probably the most difficult for 4w5 and 5w4 who always want to be right and HATE being wrong, is to accept a wider range of wrongness and trust not that you will always be right and your facts will always be perfect, but that something good will come from the process of testing yourself this way.

    bc using the auxiliary E function when introverted helps get you feedback, test your dominant function, refine it, etc. as introverts we spend way more time interpolating, analyzing, organizing, and arranging internally. we explore our own perceptions and judgments. but by themselves they lack definition. getting comfortable with the extroverted function, balancing our inner and outer, gives us more chances to develop accuracy. yet, at the same time, if we do it haphazardly, we don't really learn anything of value and can set ourselves back a bit, bc we do have the habit of dwelling on and making more significant those things that we experience from the external world.

    it's a frustrating quandary, but the idea is that waking up our second function, getting more experience, realizing that this helps but doesn't solve everything, that there is still a remainder that is causing us tension and frustration, sets us to exploring and recognizing our tertiary can help find answers. getting closer to the dinging the circus bell, or an that awareness grows/becomes more complex.

  9. #49
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    First, the video seemed totally staged. You can tell that she is indeed introverted because she overly relies on her Fe (something INFJs probably do in social situations). Her lack of comfort makes her over-compensate through massive, sweeping gestures, body language, contact. It almost seems as if she over-exaggerated to make a point.
    My ISFJ mom can come across like this in social situations. You'd think she was Fe-dom, but I know her and know she's an introvert. There's very much an exaggeration of her Fe to compensate for her usual reservedness.

    The hand gestures don't mean a lot to me....I've seen INFPs gesture a lot in videos, and I've been known to gesture wildly . I think it has to do with the level of comfort. He did not seem comfortable, and she was possibly overcompensating for both of their awkwardness.

    I felt myself being very analytical and judgmental during the video rather than listening to the substance, so I cannot give you any specifics on what the people said.

    More importantly than what they said is how they acted and behaved and the signals they were sending off. Both made me constantly look at the clock and wonder, "When the eff is this going to be over?!"
    I had a similar feeling when watching it. In retrospect, there were a few things the INFP said that rang true with me. When he talked about things "resonating", that is a word that describes some of the Fi process well.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    it's a potential weakness in introversion, but using Ne/auxiliary E function is exploratory. i find the approach, which is probably the most difficult for 4w5 and 5w4 who always want to be right and HATE being wrong, is to accept a wider range of wrongness and trust not that you will always be right and your facts will always be perfect, but that something good will come from the process of testing yourself this way.
    Yes, I fear expressing something wrong...in a small way, this means often double checking what I already know and looking for external confirmation to support something I've long accepted internally. A minor example: I'll look up words I am very familiar with to ensure they do not have an unwanted connotation before using them. It's distrust of Si maybe. I fear my memory of facts is faulty, and I know how FiNe can go off on a flight of fancy far, far from reality. Si can really help ground an INFP when needed, but it can also be a trap to get bogged down in negative memory. Same with Ne...it can open you up to the external world to consider many possibilities, but also lead you down the very wrong path by getting too confident its perceptions.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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