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  1. #31
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Well that's an excellent point you make too Fuzzcrossed. Similarly, Fe is a skill I am humbled to have developed to a decent competency over the years. It was essential (esp when I worked in sales) to be polished and to be able to connect, understand the rules.

    Personally, I wouldn't want my interviewer to have to work so hard to bond with me, and would have sympathized with their efforts, so I would have attempted to reciprocate more in that situation. Then the hand gestures would have been so wild there would have been an inevitable gesticulation accident!

  2. #32
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I'm definitely at the "me talk pretty one day" level of Fe fluency at most. The natives are kind enough to look on my feeble efforts with tolerant amusement. I at least sometimes recognize it when I see it, which is a step up from when I was younger.

  3. #33
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    I feel so shallow now. I didn't mean to fake-listen to Pete, force a ping back, or invade his space with my massive hand gestures. I'm sorry. Being an ENFJ sucks when you see the truth.
    haha

    This lady embodies so many of the irritating things about Fe. There's so many good aspects you can attribute to the function, but she seems to hit the nail on the head in this video of where it goes wrong (probably without realizing it at all).

    I, for one, have found it useful to "mimic" Fe socially. This does not mean I have developed the function. Rather, I've observed the ways in which Fe expresses, because sometimes Fi (as brought out) feels, but doesn't send any external signal of that feeling (and then you seem cold, snobby, rude, etc).

    Sometimes I feel like an alien when observing Fe people: "Interesting how the Fe human reacts here. I will try that myself in the future" . Although I have "noble" motive and am not really that detached & analytical in observing. I am truly seeking connection and to express positive feeling, but I haven't mastered the language as so many Fe people have.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #34
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    When I get a feeling about something/someone, I feel like it has as much to do with Ne as Fi. I'm just noticing little patterns that suggest many things. I am not prone to jump to any one conclusion. Quick decisions are unusual for INFPs, right?

    Like you, it also takes me awhile to close the folder on a person and label it. It remains open as I gather new info. This is because a judgment can be very final and requires much thought, and I'm hesitant to go there until I have enough facts. Maybe some people trust their initial feeling too much, or I don't trust it enough. I've often wished I listened to a feeling earlier on, and maybe it was my experiences growing up that made me suspicious of my own feelings.

    Your Tyra Banks example is funny because I had a similar response to her. I found myself giving a TV personality the "benefit of the doubt" and then finally just ended up deciding she was very unlikable and full of herself.

    I agree that I am not incredibly sensitive to a room's atmosphere either. I'm too lost in my own head to be focused that outwardly. When I sense something, it's vague and left open to many interpretations until I come across further info that confirms it. Then I'll think, "I knew it!"
    i make snap decisions immediately. but they can be changed rather easily. for me, immediately it was, tyra banks? bam, antichrist. i just took a couple sips, spit it back out, and knew i never wanted to taste it again. i'd rather watch a talk show with a great dane as the talk show host.

    also, do you think the latter paragraph suggests anything about e9 vs e4? so vs sp vs sx?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This lady embodies so many of the irritating things about Fe. There's so many good aspects you can attribute to the function, but she seems to hit the nail on the head in this video of where it goes wrong (probably without realizing it at all).

    I, for one, have found it useful to "mimic" Fe socially. This does not mean I have developed the function. Rather, I've observed the ways in which Fe expresses, because sometimes Fi (as brought out) feels, but doesn't send any external signal of that feeling (and then you seem cold, snobby, rude, etc).

    Sometimes I feel like an alien when observing Fe people: "Interesting how the Fe human reacts here. I will try that myself in the future" . Although I have "noble" motive and am not really that detached & analytical in observing. I am truly seeking connection and to express positive feeling, but I haven't mastered the language as so many Fe people have.
    that's awful Fe. like how i feel when an esfj approaches me at work in just the most ridiculous, do you fucking know me at all kind of way???!!! i make a joke about it at this point, something like, so _____..., what made you think that was a good idea?

    i don't think it encompasses what Fe has to be at all. it's exactly the same kind of pigeon-holing that gets done with Fi. the way many people use Fe, one of its primary strategies, is off-putting, yes. esfjs are by far my most difficult type to get along with. and i'm an Fe person. second most difficult is estps with tertiary Fe. i get the same inauthentic warning bells (it's bc what i see as obvious, they see as sneaky, that i can see you coming from a mile away/see right thru you feeling). but Fe is so many things. it's always combined with Ti, and it can't really exist without some Ti support to give it a story. which turns it into a kind of game, why Fe-Ti people can seem very flirtatious, challenging, coy, etc. they love to push buttons. with Ni it changes very drastically from Si, bc it is much more able to auto-associate and find relationships that fit the situation more accurately, re-frame, see more angles, etc. it's much more hand-tailored communication, rhetorically savvy, self-aware, and quirky. it doesn't feel quite so saved by the bell. it can interpolate, blend, and imagine new possibilities, try on new styles, new approaches, and generally be more inventive and more adaptive when learning. gets the gist of things more quickly.

    Fe does feel like it wants to probe and explore. seymour's ping analogy is pretty good, altho it doesn't explain everything. it is part of Fe as an extroverted process, but i feel like extroverted processes can still be somewhat passive. when i was younger i struggled not being able to turn Fe off, only getting Fe one way. i am an introvert, and until the last couple of years, i was like 98% introverted. i would never initiate anything. i wouldn't say hello to anyone unless they said hello to me first. then it was hit-or-miss as to whether i'd respond. but i'd still be getting information, i'd still be paying attention to gestures, the language of emotion, absorbing it, hearing its exchange all around me like music. i just could see what was being conveyed, and i could imagine what was underneath, and it drove me fucking mad bc they never connected in a way that didn't disturb me. i was VERY judgy, dismissive, and cynical as a result. i trusted no one, and felt disgusted by everyone. the withdrawn types are still more observers. and with that said, the instinctual energies often make a big difference in this regard too. blackcat has pointed out to me that he rarely meshes with so doms, which i find to be a very damn good point. i just retract immediately, bc there's no investment. that's not just Fe, that's so dom. and often e2s and e3s, which is not in itself wrong, it just clashes with us withdrawn types (e4, e5, e9), especially the sx and sp types who are very focused on their inner life and intense expression of their experience.

  5. #35
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i make snap decisions immediately. but they can be changed rather easily. for me, immediately it was, tyra banks? bam, antichrist. i just took a couple sips, spit it back out, and knew i never wanted to taste it again. i'd rather watch a talk show with a great dane as the talk show host.

    also, do you think the latter paragraph suggests anything about e9 vs e4? so vs sp vs sx?
    I never made it to her talk show ....I was talking about her modeling show, which I checked out because of my interest in fashion (which, it turns out, the show has little to do with, but that's another story....).

    I think it's very possible the latter paragraph is a e4 vs. e9 thing. e4s are less concerned with other people.... (uh oh, am I being selfish? ). I don't know about the so/sp/sx. I tend to be sp/sx, and I see so probably also being more people-oriented.

    that's awful Fe. like how i feel when an esfj approaches me at work in just the most ridiculous, do you fucking know me at all kind of way???!!! i make a joke about it at this point, something like, so _____..., what made you think that was a good idea?

    i don't think it encompasses what Fe has to be at all. it's exactly the same kind of pigeon-holing that gets done with Fi. the way many people use Fe, one of its primary strategies, is off-putting, yes. esfjs are by far my most difficult type to get along with. and i'm an Fe person. second most difficult is estps with tertiary Fe. i get the same inauthentic warning bells (it's bc what i see as obvious, they see as sneaky, that i can see you coming from a mile away/see right thru you feeling). but Fe is so many things. it's always combined with Ti, and it can't really exist without some Ti support to give it a story. which turns it into a kind of game, why Fe-Ti people can seem very flirtatious, challenging, coy, etc. they love to push buttons. with Ni it changes very drastically from Si, bc it is much more able to auto-associate and find relationships that fit the situation more accurately, re-frame, see more angles, etc. it's much more hand-tailored communication, rhetorically savvy, self-aware, and quirky. it doesn't feel quite so saved by the bell. it can interpolate, blend, and imagine new possibilities, try on new styles, new approaches, and generally be more inventive and more adaptive when learning. gets the gist of things more quickly.

    Fe does feel like it wants to probe and explore. seymour's ping analogy is pretty good, altho it doesn't explain everything. it is part of Fe as an extroverted process, but i feel like extroverted processes can still be somewhat passive. when i was younger i struggled not being able to turn Fe off, only getting Fe one way. i am an introvert, and until the last couple of years, i was like 98% introverted. i would never initiate anything. i wouldn't say hello to anyone unless they said hello to me first. then it was hit-or-miss as to whether i'd respond. but i'd still be getting information, i'd still be paying attention to gestures, the language of emotion, absorbing it, hearing its exchange all around me like music. i just could see what was being conveyed, and i could imagine what was underneath, and it drove me fucking mad bc they never connected in a way that didn't disturb me. i was VERY judgy, dismissive, and cynical as a result. i trusted no one, and felt disgusted by everyone. the withdrawn types are still more observers. and with that said, the instinctual energies often make a big difference in this regard too. blackcat has pointed out to me that he rarely meshes with so doms, which i find to be a very damn good point. i just retract immediately, bc there's no investment. that's not just Fe, that's so dom. and often e2s and e3s, which is not in itself wrong, it just clashes with us withdrawn types (e4, e5, e9), especially the sx and sp types who are very focused on their inner life and intense expression of their experience.
    The "adaptive" point you hit on with Fe is sort of what I was referring to in its positive qualities and what I seek to mimic to make my life easier. I don't feel very "adaptive", naturally, when it comes to my feelings (because of Ne, I can adapt to new things/situations/etc well). A flaw of Fi can be, "I feel this way, and I cannot adapt to the mood of my environment, because that is fake!!!" , and hence, a cranky Fi-dom is born. Not saying Fe-doms are fake at all, rather adaptiveness seems much more natural. When I make a conscious effort to adapt it is basically one value winning out over the other. Maturity has taught me that authenticity is not always as important as connecting to people, or that by being authentic in a moment or over one issue I can mislead people as to my whole personality (because disagreeableness & aloofness is not me overall, but it can be me sometimes). So the main motivation, to connect, remains genuine even if some other feeling has to be put aside for the moment.

    ExFPs learn adaptiveness faster I think, probably because they are more inclined to seek interaction, and Fi is in the aux position. Still, I see a stubborn streak in some in not wanting to adapt.

    On the other hand, it gives Fi-doms a very strong backbone at times when adaptiveness becomes a weakness. Most qualities have a positive & negative angle.

    I totally get that an INFJ is not going to exhibit or use Fe in the same way a Fe-dom does, and it doesn't boil down to social interaction. I've always seen how intuition vs. sensing makes a big difference in how Fe comes across also.

    It seems, because of your introversion, you did not adapt externally through Fe as you see yourself capable of doing now (or Fe in general). Imagine if you felt little adaptability to begin with. Instead of irritation, it can be more like obliviousness and even confusion. I think it leads to a similar feeling of alienation, but for different reasons.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #36
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i agree, tho it did take me an awful long time to stop fighting Fe. as an e5, i think there's a natural resistance to both Se and Fe. at first i thought i was an intp.

    i think much of the growth process, for me, was recognizing i didn't have great emotional awareness to begin with, internally at least, so i'd better accept what i could do. i think work situations that required a lot of social activity gave me a lot of feedback to finally get the ball rolling. coincidentally, the manager who hired me, was an an infp 4w5.

    adaptiveness is more natural bc we don't try to integrate all emotional judgments into a vast Fi framework of experience. we don't remember shit in this way, we just go with what's available in experience as it's happening. it's more a method than a way of creating truth. it's very pragmatic, views truth as nothing but contingent, etc. error checking is more of a social process than an internal one (for extroverted functions). for the internal grounding to self values, i rely on Ti to create accurate stories of what is true and what is not true. enfjs have an even more difficult time with this (and probably why they're more often e2s and e3s).

    i think your alienation diagnosis is right on. i think there's a difference and i'm just talking a lot of words, but for me it was desolation, just emptiness, whereas for infps it seems more alienation. i needed that connection bc it was my only way of hearing myself, knowing myself, relating to myself. i still had that awful struggle, especially as my 4 wing peaked shortly after it kicked in at 20 or so, just bashing my head into the wall trying to understand myself, find a way to communicate myself to someone else, finding someone, something, anything, to give form to myself, articulate myself, account for myself.

    i would also say that in obliviousness, Ne has the same adaptive advantages over Ni that Fe has over Fi. just relying on past associations, representations, etc at all times, and having it not line up sometimes/often with what is presented to you. and having to find a way to integrate it, to either absorb it and the contradictions or just reject it completely. this is the joy of introverted functions.

  7. #37
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I only watched the first 5 mins.It was too painful. I felt sorry for Pete! Vicki Jo's hands stole the show, and OMG, she kept touching him. He had the definite vibe of WTF am I doing here.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #38
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    I, for one, have found it useful to "mimic" Fe socially. This does not mean I have developed the function. Rather, I've observed the ways in which Fe expresses, because sometimes Fi (as brought out) feels, but doesn't send any external signal of that feeling (and then you seem cold, snobby, rude, etc).

    There was also something you said earlier about Fe having the words for feeling whereas Fi has a harder time with that. Because I have a good friend whom I'm deeply attracted to (who I believe is Fe sometimes and Fi at others), I've thought about our conversations and how easily expressive he is verbally about feelings for me (he expresses that in indirect ways). I often want to express that and try to but words don't seem adequate to describe the feeling. It can feel 'false' to me to say something short of what I really mean, what I really feel. I find it frustrating that I don't convey how much I feel about him in a way that other types would find much easier to do. It's all nonverbal, body language, eye contact, etc., which he understands, no doubt, but in my mind there's no substitute for actual saying out loud in the moment a 'truth' or something that lets the other person know you feel personally about them, that they are not just a casual friend. I deeply desire this connection with someone I care for. I often feel that others can see through me as easily as I feel I see them and so my feeling must be evident. (not the case). It drives me a little nuts.

    To another thought earlier expressed about intuition. I trust mine completely, and if I get a certain positive intuitive feeling about someone, I'll run with it. I don't usually hold back and reserve judgment (at least with those I feel most strongly about). With my male friend, my positive feeling for him was so strong that in my heart I called him my friend from the moment we met. I've learned more about him and nothing has changed (it's only been enhanced) from that first gut feeling. I don't usually look for confirmation later on after that first gut feeling. When I feel this way someone has to do something that deeply betrays me for me to back away from them, but even then (very rare), I'll look within myself to see how I might have contributed to a misunderstanding by trusting my feelings so much that I don't step into the other person's shoes and see how they might be feeling/thinking. That might be a stumbling block for Fi from what I've read here: too much trust in it. Before I ramble on too much, I'll stop here.

  9. #39
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Huh, I don't know if it was just me, but I could see the INFP in the video's claim as being far more limited. He just claimed he knew "something" was going on. And he said the would let it resonate with him so he could honor it. I didn't hear him say he knew exactly what the "something" was, or whether the "something" he picked up was the true, hidden, beating heart of the matter, invisible to lesser mortals. Granted, he wasn't being specific, so maybe in any particular case he would feel that way... just pointing out he didn't say so.

    Warning: What follows is a series of geeky analogies. I'm a geek, so I make no apologies. I do apologize for the length, though.

    I've been thinking about this Fi pretension/assumption vs. Fe, and it seems like some of it could be to the different dynamic we see in Fi vs Fe. Note that where I say "Fe" and "Fi" below, I'm partially referring to "Ne as filtered through Fi" and "Ni as filtered through Fe." I'm aware that Fi and Fe are judging functions, but clearly they have a huge affect on what we pay attention to. I also am not denying the SFPs use Fi, as well, etc, etc.

    Active Fe

    To me, it seems like Fe works a lot like radar or sonar. Fe tends out an emotional ping ("You're awesome!") and the target(s) respond accordingly ("Thanks! You are, too!"). The social rituals we associate with Fe work the same way. I send you a Christmas card, you send me one. I say you are a friend, you visit me when I'm sick.

    While in some sense this can appear as keeping track of social credit (a charge sometimes leveled against Fe), it's also making sure that pings get acknowledged, and lets people know they are valued and where they stand in relation to others. Knowing whose turn it is makes sure that communication continues. Social expectations help make it more clear who should initiate the next cycle.

    I see this on the small scale, immediate scale with my Fe friends. They are much more likely to proactively emote ("I'm so excited about this movie coming out!") and like it when you can share with them ("Really? Me, too!"). They also are more likely to reflect what you say back at you, and react to it directly. If you are excited about something, they like to be excited, too, and part of that is reflecting it back at you so you can be sure they are on your wavelength. You don't have to guess that they are excited, they let you know. That gives you a chance to correct them if they are incorrect.

    As a programmer, this seems a lot like network protocols that require an "acknowledgement" when the other end has received the data. Some also have both "ack" (for acknowledged) and "nack" (for explicitly NOT acknowledging, so error handling or data resending can happen). These can be used with things like checksums, to make sure that the data received was the same as the data sent. Fe emotional communication seems to have a lot of "acks" and "nacks" going on.

    Passive Fi

    So, compared to the actively radar/sonar type emotional detection of Fe, Fi works more like a passive sensor. For example, a thermometer or the light sensors in a digital camera. These kinds of sensors respond to external changes, but they don't have to send out a signal first, nor is an acknowledgement an inherent part of their functioning. Like a digital camera, what they pick up may be distorted in all kinds of way (lens distortion, smudge on the glass, noise from the sensor itself, etc), but there's also no intrusive protocol and communication doesn't impose any requirements on the target's (or other party's) part.

    So, if someone had only been exposed to radar/sonar types of active detectors, they would be mystified by the function of passive detectors. "How can you passively just get data? What signal did you send out first? What, no signal sent out? Then how did you know anything was going on? You can't have!"

    Also, if you were only familiar with ack/nack style communications, you would be appalled at the idea of placing any credence at all on protocols that lacked them. "What? How could you trust the signal that your old analog TV picked up was what was sent? There was no acknowledgement! No checksum! It's totally unreliable!"

    So that's kind of how I feel people are reacting when they talk about "pretentious Fi." It's true that there's not all the active sending out of signals and all the explicit acknowledgements and reflection going on. That doesn't mean it's impossible that any data got picked up.

    Fi users still have to figure out how to validate their perceptions, just like every other type. I think it's harder for Fi users, since their typical emotional information gathering style doesn't have all the built-in failsafes.

    I think it can also set off other types who claim "You can't know that, because there was no communication! I never pinged or acked, therefore you can't know ANYTHING about my emotional state. If you do claim to, you are claiming magical insight!"

    I think there can be added irritation from people used to an Fe style of emotional interaction. They ping an emotion at us... we soak it in, but don't really acknowledge it or reflect it back (or at least not consistently). This can can lead to a reaction of, "What, you think you are too good to respond? But later you claim to know my emotional state? So freaking arrogant!" and also "That wasn't communication because you weren't actively involved! How can I know how we (or I) feel if you don't reflect it back at me?!"

    To make matters worse, we may go along with something in such a way that WOULD be a real "ack" for an Fe user. Then the Fe user feels betrayed because we appeared to agree when we really didn't.
    Great post.

  10. #40
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well that's an excellent point you make too Fuzzcrossed. Similarly, Fe is a skill I am humbled to have developed to a decent competency over the years. It was essential (esp when I worked in sales) to be polished and to be able to connect, understand the rules.

    Personally, I wouldn't want my interviewer to have to work so hard to bond with me, and would have sympathized with their efforts, so I would have attempted to reciprocate more in that situation. Then the hand gestures would have been so wild there would have been an inevitable gesticulation accident!
    I've had gesticulation accidents. Really. XD
    Love is the point.

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