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  1. #11
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Wow there's just so much I could say about this video ...

    This makes me think of the Pretentious Fi thread ... all the folks who think Fi dominants are out there in the world being "drama queens" should really watch this.

    OMG, I'm still listening to it and laughing ... he is so patient with her!
    they're obviously not meeting at all, and she's a bit strung out and pretty gross, i don't find either of them to be likable at all. i wouldn't want to be or talk to either of those people.

    as far as the "drama queen" thing, i don't see that as an accurate reading of what people criticize in Fi. i think people feel more condescended upon when Fi (via Ne) feels so self-assured that they know the TRUE meaning of what is going on, the emotional truth of the situation for you (even more than you do) or for others. they feel like their emotional resonances ARE the truth that is happening elsewhere in others. while, if you ask them, they may say that everyone has their own truth immediately, and that they more than anyone else are protecting that truth, it doesn't feel like it to the other person/people. i don't know why this is. you can just see the assumptions, even if it is not rooted in action. but, as udog pointed out, this is a way of using Fi more than it is just the default nature of Fi. just like not all intps are arrogant pricks.

    an infp girl i know at work is extremely judgmental, and EVERYONE at work except for me feels condescended upon. i disarm her and say something snappy back1, but at the same time, she trusts me more than them bc we are friends, recognize a far deeper value-set than most people can see, communicate well, etc. i have interest in understanding her and learning about her values, just bc i want to understand her and learn about her values.

    1 this is where i also see that, hey, it's work, i don't give a fuck about what these people think of me, they don't share my values anyway so i'll just ignore them, avoid them, occasionally snap at them, block them outetc. but why? people notice. she's interesting, occasionally she lets down her guard and likes it. why force yourself to become an outcast unnecessarily? why ostracize yourself? all introverted function dominants want to think that their internal experience is the greatest thing ever (Ti, Fi, i sure do with my Ni, etc <--- me perhaps being condescending toward Si), but sharing it with the community is a necessary step. i don't see the only expression of Fi as going up in a kamikaze flame.)

    picking up again, the condescension is related to the way he describes his experience of Fi. he feels as if, when he walks into a room, he knows what's really going on. some truth that others do not see, recognize, have access to, that is in fact the crucial determining factor in all the events, the true meaning of the events and expressions, that unfold. in some cases, it IS the best, most telling way of interpreting, but in many others it is not. this is just like Fe is the worst fucking way/awareness for writing research papers, it provides nothing and i'd much rather use Ti, Te, or Fi for that purpose. Fi and Fe can revise, but i find Fi to be a much better revising process, much more of a reasoning process, i just use Fe to learn the song by ear and know what's right, it's completely uncritical and relies on me picking up the voice of the words and imagining that more than reasoning what fits, what matters, etc. embodying the language-style, which is a kind of "either you've got it or you don't" kind of thing, which sucks when you don't really have it yet. altho my friend tells me has to become invested in that way of writing and speaking so much so that now, when he hears butchered language, it depresses him. bc the whole body complex of Fi is a physical stress.

    Fi says it knows what you're feeling, and what your tangled web of values is, so it knows what's going on as a result. it knows the feeling truths around it. it is the best function at this, but this doesn't provide the whole of the situation any more than Ti does (which has the best access to the story of the events, which is a different kind of plot/non-character truth governing what causes what) or other functions. whereas Ni would consider all ways of framing the scene, understanding it in different contextualizations, angles, etc. but the point is that without Ti, my ability to do this is highly scattered and may rest on nothing accurate. there's no error-checking. Fi or Ti that is 100% dogmaticallly my values are my subjective truth and you can't do anything about it don't communicate their insights or allow their internal awarenesses to be feedbacked properly, nor do they allow their Fi to begin to poke its head out and leak into the world. it needs to allow itself to be checked and balanced by other functions both internally AND externally to blend into a greater awareness. i'm sure Si is supportive in the sense that it says, wait! are you sure the details are right? is this the same situation as the one you experienced? what is the same and different? etc, which, with open Ne finding possibilities, would help focus them again and provide really good information for Fi to refine itself and know the emotional world as well as it can be known (which is obviously possible when you meet an infp who seems to have their shit figured out).

    also, for me, i think infjs ARE as empty of Fi as she says. i don't believe Fi operates for me at a conscious or unconscious level. i see it nowhere in myself. i have to find alternate ways to know myself and become in touch with my values. it's just how my awareness blends together, Fi is a huge blind spot that i definitely need help dealing with in a skillful way. in all really paramount matters of decision-making, i feel inadequate bc i just don't KNOW. and this way of knowing doesn't seem to get better, there's nothing there to learn and grow. it's just that i have to use other awarenesses to kind of make up for it and approach differently. bc it's just not there for me.

    this is why, when uncentered like her (tho i'm never that bad), i start missing the other person. just not really hearing him/her, skipping around all over the place, the Fe gestures start to get off and just feel gross and horribly misplaced/guided, it's just a fucking trainwreck. bc i'm not aware of how my own emotional state is affecting me at all, what i'm feeling, that would give me information needed to get my shit under control. i just start projecting and as the context falls apart my Fe just looks more stranded and helpless and unpracticed. as an e5, it's about my biggest fear in the world. bc i agree, it's pretty horrific to watch.

  2. #12
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I think 'F' is just another way of filtering intuition. It's never complete without other factors like logical analysis.
    It can be judgemental, but for me, the judgements don't mean anything by themselves; I am fully prepaired to revise and possibly throw them out.

  3. #13
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    as far as the "drama queen" thing, i don't see that as an accurate reading of what people criticize in Fi.
    But I think some people interpret this behaviour as Fi. Thus Fi dominants say - hey, I don't put that behaviour out into the world for everyone to see, so why does everyone presume to know Fi when you would very seldom see it from me?

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i think people feel more condescended upon when Fi (via Ne) feels so self-assured that they know the TRUE meaning of what is going on, the emotional truth of the situation for you (even more than you do) or for others.
    Agreed; that is presumptuous and potentially erroneous, especially without due diligence or without "checking in" (as he mentions in the clip.)

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    picking up again, the condescension is related to the way he describes his experience of Fi. he feels as if, when he walks into a room, he knows what's really going on.
    Well, he doesn't actually say "really". He says "I know something is going on emotionally ... I can smell it." I don't hear him presuming to have all the facts. He has a sense of a potential dynamic at play and thus he says again, "I sense what's in the room, but I check in with myself." And he pointedly mentions keeping these thoughts to himself unless expressly asked to share them.

    Fi is like an iceberg; you perhaps only see 10% (at most) of it at any given time when encountering an INFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    Fi says it knows what you're feeling, and what your tangled web of values is, so it knows what's going on as a result. it knows the feeling truths around it. it is the best function at this, but this doesn't provide the whole of the situation ...
    Well I don't think Fi ever presumes to know another person's values, but I guess it's true that we are pretty confident that when we feel something, there's something under the surface ... maybe that's a better way of expressing it. We sense something is going on, and use our other faculties to suss it out. And as we mature we get better at doing so, attributing feelings either to ourselves or others.

    I'm not saying Fi is the best function in the universe, moreso that Fi users grow weary of Fi being discredited. Ti gets the ultimate beauty of logic to back up any claims it dares to make. It may not see the world with a linear flow either, but ultimately (as I understand it) a Ti user could back-track and set out a logical framework to explain or construct or rationalize how they came to a flash of insight. Like seeing an invention in their mind, then building it - you see if you are right or wrong. Or seeing all the potential moves in chess and choosing instinctively the best strategic play. Then you see how good someone's Ti really is.

    So yes, there are ultimately good and bad Fi users too ...

    But when Fi dares to conclude something in the same way as Ti ... there is nothing so concrete to use for substantiation. It's just a feeling after all, globally and instantaneously obtained, and no matter if it's right or not, the person you sense something in could be either emotionally unaware of their depths or simply out-and-out deny that the Fi use is accurate. And if you try to use Fi directly in the outside world to gain evidence to substantiate your hypothesis, be prepared for huge amounts of push-back, because no one likes to think they are SO transparent.

    Ultimately, I think I see where you are coming from though - it's in that look on his face when he says - "I know something's going on" - non-Fi doms just want to smack him and say "No you don't! How dare you presume to know?"

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    She's an INFJ??

  5. #15
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    they're obviously not meeting at all, and she's a bit strung out and pretty gross, i don't find either of them to be likable at all. i wouldn't want to be or talk to either of those people.

    [...]

    picking up again, the condescension is related to the way he describes his experience of Fi. he feels as if, when he walks into a room, he knows what's really going on. some truth that others do not see, recognize, have access to, that is in fact the crucial determining factor in all the events, the true meaning of the events and expressions, that unfold. in some cases, it IS the best, most telling way of interpreting, but in many others it is not. this is just like Fe is the worst fucking way/awareness for writing research papers, it provides nothing and i'd much rather use Ti, Te, or Fi for that purpose. Fi and Fe can revise, but i find Fi to be a much better revising process, much more of a reasoning process, i just use Fe to learn the song by ear and know what's right, it's completely uncritical and relies on me picking up the voice of the words and imagining that more than reasoning what fits, what matters, etc. embodying the language-style, which is a kind of "either you've got it or you don't" kind of thing, which sucks when you don't really have it yet. altho my friend tells me has to become invested in that way of writing and speaking so much so that now, when he hears butchered language, it depresses him. bc the whole body complex of Fi is a physical stress.
    Huh, I don't know if it was just me, but I could see the INFP in the video's claim as being far more limited. He just claimed he knew "something" was going on. And he said the would let it resonate with him so he could honor it. I didn't hear him say he knew exactly what the "something" was, or whether the "something" he picked up was the true, hidden, beating heart of the matter, invisible to lesser mortals. Granted, he wasn't being specific, so maybe in any particular case he would feel that way... just pointing out he didn't say so.

    Warning: What follows is a series of geeky analogies. I'm a geek, so I make no apologies. I do apologize for the length, though.

    I've been thinking about this Fi pretension/assumption vs. Fe, and it seems like some of it could be to the different dynamic we see in Fi vs Fe. Note that where I say "Fe" and "Fi" below, I'm partially referring to "Ne as filtered through Fi" and "Ni as filtered through Fe." I'm aware that Fi and Fe are judging functions, but clearly they have a huge affect on what we pay attention to. I also am not denying the SFPs use Fi, as well, etc, etc.

    Active Fe

    To me, it seems like Fe works a lot like radar or sonar. Fe tends out an emotional ping ("You're awesome!") and the target(s) respond accordingly ("Thanks! You are, too!"). The social rituals we associate with Fe work the same way. I send you a Christmas card, you send me one. I say you are a friend, you visit me when I'm sick.

    While in some sense this can appear as keeping track of social credit (a charge sometimes leveled against Fe), it's also making sure that pings get acknowledged, and lets people know they are valued and where they stand in relation to others. Knowing whose turn it is makes sure that communication continues. Social expectations help make it more clear who should initiate the next cycle.

    I see this on the small scale, immediate scale with my Fe friends. They are much more likely to proactively emote ("I'm so excited about this movie coming out!") and like it when you can share with them ("Really? Me, too!"). They also are more likely to reflect what you say back at you, and react to it directly. If you are excited about something, they like to be excited, too, and part of that is reflecting it back at you so you can be sure they are on your wavelength. You don't have to guess that they are excited, they let you know. That gives you a chance to correct them if they are incorrect.

    As a programmer, this seems a lot like network protocols that require an "acknowledgement" when the other end has received the data. Some also have both "ack" (for acknowledged) and "nack" (for explicitly NOT acknowledging, so error handling or data resending can happen). These can be used with things like checksums, to make sure that the data received was the same as the data sent. Fe emotional communication seems to have a lot of "acks" and "nacks" going on.

    Passive Fi

    So, compared to the actively radar/sonar type emotional detection of Fe, Fi works more like a passive sensor. For example, a thermometer or the light sensors in a digital camera. These kinds of sensors respond to external changes, but they don't have to send out a signal first, nor is an acknowledgement an inherent part of their functioning. Like a digital camera, what they pick up may be distorted in all kinds of way (lens distortion, smudge on the glass, noise from the sensor itself, etc), but there's also no intrusive protocol and communication doesn't impose any requirements on the target's (or other party's) part.

    So, if someone had only been exposed to radar/sonar types of active detectors, they would be mystified by the function of passive detectors. "How can you passively just get data? What signal did you send out first? What, no signal sent out? Then how did you know anything was going on? You can't have!"

    Also, if you were only familiar with ack/nack style communications, you would be appalled at the idea of placing any credence at all on protocols that lacked them. "What? How could you trust the signal that your old analog TV picked up was what was sent? There was no acknowledgement! No checksum! It's totally unreliable!"

    So that's kind of how I feel people are reacting when they talk about "pretentious Fi." It's true that there's not all the active sending out of signals and all the explicit acknowledgements and reflection going on. That doesn't mean it's impossible that any data got picked up.

    Fi users still have to figure out how to validate their perceptions, just like every other type. I think it's harder for Fi users, since their typical emotional information gathering style doesn't have all the built-in failsafes.

    I think it can also set off other types who claim "You can't know that, because there was no communication! I never pinged or acked, therefore you can't know ANYTHING about my emotional state. If you do claim to, you are claiming magical insight!"

    I think there can be added irritation from people used to an Fe style of emotional interaction. They ping an emotion at us... we soak it in, but don't really acknowledge it or reflect it back (or at least not consistently). This can can lead to a reaction of, "What, you think you are too good to respond? But later you claim to know my emotional state? So freaking arrogant!" and also "That wasn't communication because you weren't actively involved! How can I know how we (or I) feel if you don't reflect it back at me?!"

    To make matters worse, we may go along with something in such a way that WOULD be a real "ack" for an Fe user. Then the Fe user feels betrayed because we appeared to agree when we really didn't.

  6. #16
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I have often thought of Fi as radio signals - the Fi user being the radio, and all the people in world a different station being broadcast.

    Loved your analogies. As a fellow computer programmer, I literally laughed out loud at "I never pinged or acked ..."

    FABULOUS!

    Excellent addition to aiding in the understanding of Fe and Fi!

  7. #17
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Welcome to the internet, where Fi = NFP.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  8. #18
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ no it doesn't, but you know how hard it is to explain BlackCat. You've experienced each side of the fence as well ...

    We luv you too! ISFP's are somes of my favorite kittehs ...

  9. #19
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    [...]I also am not denying the SFPs use Fi, as well, etc, etc. [...]

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Welcome to the internet, where Fi = NFP.
    I tried to explicitly acknowledge that I was writing from an NFP perspective, and wasn't denying that others use Fi. Certainly didn't mean to lock anyone out of the discussion, just harder for me to address since I know less about SFPs firsthand. Also, the original video for this thread was an example from the INFJ or INFP website.

    Feel free to expand and correct, though. I wish we had more input from SFPs in general.

  10. #20
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ no it doesn't, but you know how hard it is to explain BlackCat.

    We luv you too! ISFP's are somes of my favorite kittiehs ...
    Lol I know... it's just that most of these threads where people are bitching about Fi it's mostly about NFPs. And a lot of the time when NFPs describe their Fi it's all in conjunction with Ne, so it doesn't really apply to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I tried to explicitly acknowledge that I was writing from an NFP perspective, and wasn't denying that others use Fi. Certainly didn't mean to lock anyone out of the discussion, just harder for me to address since I know less about SFPs firsthand. Also, the original video for this thread was an example from the INFJ or INFP website.

    Feel free to expand and correct, though. I wish we had more input from SFPs in general.
    I'm gonna be honest, I didn't read that post you made. I watched some of the video and read a few of the comments, but didn't catch that disclaimer.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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