[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[Ginkgo]

Just a thought ...

We might want to differentiate the Enneagram motivations from the cognitive functions' perceptions of things.

If you want to know WHY someone is reacting in a particular way (good or bad), Enneagram helps to explain where that person is coming from and what they're specifically reacting to. Cognitive functions really only determine how well they can explain it to others. Ni tends to be a pain in the butt to explain, so few INFJs will spend the time to explain their reactions, especially when the reaction is to avoid the person in question, hence "doorslam".

Sounds interesting.

ps -

EVERYTHING IS LIES

 

[PeaceBaby]

post...

You think Eilonwy is ESFJ now?

 

[PeaceBaby]

I just had an interesting thought. Working it out, out-loud.

We know INJ's are perceivers and INP's are judgers, Pi dom and Ji dom respectively. Yet neither of us speak in our native tongue on the forum and perhaps, especially so in writing.

INP's "should" be speaking in analytical logic or value-based judgements, but don't speak judgement-speak because then knowing that "right Ji" is Ji that has adequate (no, maybe flawless) support for each out-loud judgement. It would have to include every little judging step, every little refinement to that point in time. And in the case of Fi, it would include inner space data on everyone involved, which is at best impolite to scrutinize in public. So, INP's speak in Pe, to inform perspectives and try to keep as much conclusion out of their posts as possible and give as much data so people make up their own judgements.

INJ's "should" (but don't) talk in perception-speak because first of all, unlike Si, it is imperceptibly cumulative and future-oriented and secondly, the time it would take to write out all those streams of multiple sense impressions ... unimaginable! So, INJs talk in Je, to refine judgements, essentially trying them on to gain a group consensus of judgement. It's kind of assumed, that like INP's, that one has at least a reasonable command of their primary faculty in order to assess whether or not there's enough info to come to conclusion or amend conclusion. Both speak from the aux. So for both, there are reams of unspoken data.

I wonder, if as an experiment, if INP's spoke in a stream of Ji refinements ... would that inform Pi? Or send it in too many places, plant too many bad seeds? And Pi will want perceptive proof, and no-can-do on the Fi stuff. Ti stuff ok to say out loud, Fi stuff too personal and even unprovable, easily denied or even plain not sensed. When asking Pi doms before to share only Pi data, told that's impossible. So, if Fe aux shares Je data, but welcomes it to be challenged by Ji, well, no that doesn't usually go smoothly either. It affronts Pi.


Maybe, rather than look here, the key is in the tertiary function opposition. Ji tert vs Pi tert. Tertiary functions, comfort functions, throw the baby out with the bathwater functions. Under stress, the tertiary can be the tripping point. Pi tert says, "Leave me alone - I only want the comfort of the space I know, give me peace." Ji tertiary says, "This isn't right and I will rip this to SHREDS to make the world right again."

Ponders implications ...



One thing I notice about myself is the tendency to inform then conclude. For example, I was just talking to a friend about getting together this week. What I initally said was, "I seem to have picked up a bug today and am feeling under the weather. Can we shoot for Thurs perhaps?" In this order, I am informing then offering an option. But, what I often do when writing is to switch those sentences around, literally cut and paste their order: "Can we shoot for Thurs perhaps? I seem to have picked up a bug today and am feeling under the weather." There's something in this that I feel has value, not sure what to make of it yet.

eta: or not worry about figuring it out.

 

[statuesquechica]

About the thread:

The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

If it felt to you like we were ganging up on [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

I debated about responding, or not, so here goes:

This is a public forum to discuss differences and/or similarities, to gain some insight about myself and others, and hopefully become a better person (this is my intent by participating). I am guessing that many people may have similar motives for visiting this forum. I don't feel the need to explain my presence or lack of presence in the conversation earlier, as we all participate in different ways, and I was a bit taken aback by that request when I read it. Suffice it to say, I read lots of different resources to aid in my goal of self-discovery.

When I see someone, whether in real life, or in a forum, being belittled or treated cruelly it is just in my nature to respond. I felt a sense of earnestness and pain in PeaceBaby's words that effected me deeply and I had to respond. I absolutely would have done the same if I had witnessed such a conversation in person because it feels wrong to me.

We sit behind our computers with our sense of anonymity but our words have a tremendous and real effect on other people reading them, and have a real potential to hurt. There, did that sound judgy enough?

Blame it on my 9w8!! And I shan't detract any further from the topic of the thread, though it has been very illuminating for me in a multitude of ways....

 

[Southern Kross]

For me, the key word here is "enjoy." The emotional energy in us to be enjoyed is a food source (metaphorically speaking). Somehow INFJs show up as a great possible source of this food (others may as well, but since the discussion is about PB's attraction to INFJs). That's the source of the attraction to us despite all this claimed pain and difficulty. That's what is sought.

That was my reading of it also.

And behind that hunger is a void that creates the hunger in the first place. That's likely the "keep your eye on the birdie" place that we're not supposed to see.

Note: The above is what I see and feel at that visceral gut level. It is not a definitive statement of truth, just what I perceive at this time. I strongly encourage others to assess this for yourself based on how it feels/looks to you. For INFJs, if gut feeling serves you as useful information, I'd suggest checking that gut feeling level carefully and see what perception it yields.

This, I don't get. What do you mean? Can you expand on this?

I have no idea how this thread turned into what it is right now.

I've been with my INFP for 5 years under impossible circumstances, and we both have shed a lot of tears over minor hurts, major hurts, world-shattering hurts. We both did a lot of adjusting again and again until we both felt we could not bend anymore, and at times it is just impossible, but we've survived so far, so I guess I can say I have direct experience with bridging the INFP-INFJ differences.

I have one word to you all: there are three levels of intimacy between INFJ and INFP and only two of them work. First is the acquaintances/friends level -- you respect each other, take what they say at face value and believe them -- smooth relationship. Then there's the third level -- the intimate level -- family members, romantic partners -- where you have that blind trust that you are not trying to hurt each other, and you take things they say at face value and believe them. The 'middle level', however, can be problematic, because you seek to understand each other with out the 'respectful trust' of the first level and 'blind trust' of the third level, so you dig into the real differences, the incompatible viewpoints, and both of you think you're right and you have no idea why the other party just doesn't see it. Can't you see how cruel your behaviour is? How can you even say that?

That's how I feel. You will never be able to bring the other person to your side totally, you just have to accept that you love them and they love you, and that neither of you are wrong or inferior in any other way, and you learn to love them just like that. Then beautiful things can happen.

Over the years I've learned that to an INFP, INFJs are self-righteous, calculating, vindictive, stubborn, scheming little know-it-alls, and, guess what, compared to INFPs, we really are those things. It took a while for me to accept this. INFJs tend to be very hard on themselves and we try extremely hard to be fair and good and kind and ever-giving, but, I don't think we are any easier to deal with than any other types that we find 'infuriating'. And, yes, we have a way to make arguments perfectly logical and 'fair', and cold, but that's not what INFPs are looking for. If an INFP loves you, then they love you. That's it. That's the end, and that's all that matters. There's no appending clause of "and they will try their best to make you happy and sacrifice their happiness for you and blah blah blah" -- all this might very well be true, but it's not part of the condition in the first place. I feel that INFPs will never be entirely logical to INFJs, and that can be disconcerting. INFPs can say "I'm not obligated to stay with you" and that is extremely shocking to INFJs, because INFJs will feel a sense of obligation rising directly from feelings of love. For INFJs this "I will make you happy" directly follows from "I love you". It's one and the same entity. For INFPs, the "I love you" is just that. "I will make you happy" may result from it, but does not follow in a logical way like that. (And yes, this sense of obligation is terrifying for INFPs as well, because it's "You feel obligated to stay with me?" [shock and hurt follows])

I've tried and tried to explain this, but we have to in the end seek to 'give'. We give what we can, and don't judge what they give back. We treasure all the differences as a reminder that there are strange and beautiful and larger things outside of ourselves.

This probably has a lot of INFJ E4 flavor plus INFP E9 flavor, but that's how it is for me. You can never totally get it. To make it work at all you have to step back and just enjoy the dance.

There goes my probably unhelpful 2 cents

I love what you've said here so much. I love the insights and the weight of empathy, experience, clarity and wisdom behind it all. Thanks for this.

It doesn't seem to me like an attack.

As for not getting where this comes from: On the visible levels, you did miss some of the non-public data (for example, I was initially contacted by PB via PM and in that exchange began to see some underneath patterns in how she was trying to engage with me) and you certainly weren't privy to my internal tracking process or my dialogue with my INFP partner.

There are also the data offered by some other people in this thread, but I imagine you have a different read on those data than I do.

When it comes to "now vs before": I can say that for me it wasn't a simple linear chronological trajectory at all - there were layers happening simultaneously.

Re: your read on my words (seeing someone else as the source of how I experience them): for me, in a description like that, I use the word "feeling" to describe a visceral kind of sense-perception. In other words: the word "feeling" as I use it there names a way that Ni-Se communicates information to me about what is actually happening.

Linking back to our dialogue thus far about Ni and your plane metaphor etc: I don't expect you to trust me on this, and I won't ask you to try to see what I'm picking up here. We're not in any sort of relationship in which such trust on your part would make sense. From my end, that doesn't change that I am picking up what I am picking up and seeing a certain configuration here using that (Ni-Se perception) as some of the data. Seems to me that we (you and I) are extremely unlikely to come to consensus on this, and I'm actually really ok with that. One way I see it is this: Whatever the actual reality is, I think reality itself has its own grounded power beyond wordplay, arguments, interpretations, perspectives, etc. At my core, I do trust that power - quite a bit in fact

OK. I can accept that.

It just pains me that people I like individually, don't get along with and see the value in each other (@fidelia included). I suppose I'm probably naive to presume that because I can appreciate your view, and I can appreciate her view, you could appreciate each other's and that would solve things. That's perhaps why I seem resistant to your reading of things. I don't want to admit it's just hopeless and that you're all incompatible people. I just want to keep fighting for a better solution.

 

[Southern Kross]

I'll respond to this.

The interactions in the thread reminds me of my own interactions with my INFP, where we go around and around in circles and nothing futile can come out of it. One thing I've realized in myself is that INFJs tend to have 'external evidence' from Fe on their side, which will come down on the INFPs like a sledgehammer of justice. In my relationship, arguments early on (as well as now from time to time) tend end with INFP recoiling in tremendous hurt and me sounding like a vehement self-righteous prick. Then we both feel bad, with no way of resolving it.

You see, somehow I'm always 'right' -- I do have a way to argue. Even before I start arguing I already have sorted out my arguments in a perfectly logical order. I've prepared well my case and this has been distilled through a long, winding process of self-doubt and evidence and counter-evidence on both sides, until I am absolutely certain I have the right to feel wronged, so when I open my mouth I do so with conviction. Oh, I always have good intentions. I want to reconcile. I've mapped out several ways in that the reconciliation can happen and I offer them sincerely. I'm willing to forgive and I'm willing to ask for forgiveness if I have done anything wrong on my part.

But, to my bewilderment, it doesn't work. And usually it leads to even more hurt, and more arguments, and we were stuck for a very long time in an endless loop of arguments and hurt feelings. Yes, we are sorry we hurt each other, but we cannot do anything that will heal the hurt while still being authentic to ourselves and our values at the same time.

Slowly, I came to realize that something must be wrong with this approach.

Like I said in my earlier post, it is impossible to bring the other over to your side completely. You just have to trust them and everyone has to just try not to feel hurt. I still don't understand Fi completely, but perhaps it's not something you can understand intellectually. To me Fi is still extremely judgmental, subjective, and perhaps even unfair in its disregard for 'universals'. I don't doubt Fe feels the same way to Fi users. I just had to adjust my expectation, that we see different things and we react to things differently. It's completely foreign, so no matter how hard you try to bash it with 'logic' and 'education' it will not work.

I know Fe users like to educate other people -- with the best intentions. But if you want to know how that feels like, listen to a very religious person trying to educate you about their religion. To Fi users, we sound like that.

So I guess that's why I chimed in. I'm not saying all the INFJs are being unfair. Without my relationship with my INFP, I would have reacted exactly the same way and wonder why they feel hurt. Now I know there is something else, like another set of values, that remains hidden in Fi, that I can only see glimpses of, so I tend to filter that into my consideration as well. I will say again that I don't know exactly why this thread exploded the way it did, but I'm just saying that INFJ reactions (including my own) can seem very absolute and terrifying.

Again.

To be honest, the best way to resolve conflicts between INFP and me seems to be "Screw this. Let's cuddle." We apologize for hurting each other, and in the future try not to tread where we're not supposed to even when we don't understand why the 'Do not enter' sign is there. No blame. No fingers pointed.

Strange. This was sort of my reaction earlier on, when discussing the article I posted (as an example of doorslaming). I read what 2 INFJs thought processes on it was and was surprised it wasn't really that different to my own view. Yet, I still felt a compulsion to nitpick the Judgement process (a INFP tendency, I think), because my immediate reaction was that those things matter. I became aware of that feeling, rethought it, realised it didn't actually matter in the scheme of things and resisted it. I felt like that was an important thing for me to learn. But as you imply, it's not natural - you're gonna have to stop and tell yourself, "that way madness lies" and consciously let it go. Consciousness is the key, because knee-jerk reactions are a recipe for disaster between INFPs and INFJs.

I think there's a certain pattern of speech (and thought) is necessary to aid this, though. If I hadn't asked questions in the way I did and listened in the way I did, the realisation would not have occurred. I think maybe it was [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] that mentioned the word "disarm" first, and I think it's relevant. In tense situations we have to figure out how to disarm the other - not for the goal of gaining the upper hand, but to push the reset button on their thinking (and emotions) so they can hear what you have to say with empathy and a clarity of mind. Even in some major arguments where I'm beyond furious, people have said things that hit me like a ton of bricks, totally cuts through the anger, and stopped me in my tracks. Often it's a display of vulnerability or humility that totally disarms my anger and perhaps puts things in perspective. I think we need to find that stuff to stop going around in circles in arguments that will never go anywhere.

I have older posts in this thread that don't even remotely relate to the current social climate on this forum.

The discrepancies, differences, and interplay between Fi/Ne and Ni/Fe have always seemed to be of special interest to me because of how paradoxically familiar yet alien Ni/Fe can seem to me. NFJs tend to wind up in the same places I do, attempting to achieve similar goals, but different things motivate you guys, so you respond in almost the exact opposite ways under the same stimuli. To me, our differences seem like a ripe area in which personal growth can be achieved. I would even go as far to say that, under a stringently Jungian lens, it's the only area for personal growth to be achieved.

PeaceBaby has served as a catalyst, intentionally or unintentionally, for people to highlight Fi/Ne - Ni/Fe differences in particular. However, even though she's a fellow INFP, she and I come from very different paths in life; despite my "INFJ baggage", I don't seem to be carrying near the same level of emotional investment into this conversation.

I would like to see mutual respect established between the members involved here, even if it means that certain members choose to take a breather and ignore the contents of this discussion completely.

Especially about the differences being such useful areas of growth for each other. I very much believe in that.

Were various INFJs stating their intentions and offering alternatives before the conversation began to help it develop and meet its best potential? This is interesting. I did see people ask for definitions of door-slamming, which I could interpret as setting up the rest of the discussion, but it seemed like, even if the term were eventually defined in a way several INFJs agreed with, another sticking point would immediately be found.

This is sooo what I was trying to get at before about the appearance of Ti using stall tactics. Thank you.

Not that I want to restart that argument.

What are signs that an INFJ is offering alternatives or starting negotiations? At times, it looked like some INFJs were restricting the conversation to their terms and refusing to move forward from there. It's good to see I may have misunderstood. I'd like to be able to identify what's negotiable and non-negotiable because it's not so obvious to me. Also, what happens to INFJs when they join a conversation like this one without being able to reference everyone's feelings and agendas? I'm curious what the downside is and how it looks internally.

I just want to make my view clear here, I'm totally OK with INFJs needing some conversation on their terms. I think in a thread like this in particular, it should be expected to a larger degree. But I agree there has to be some negotiation on this front.

• Me: "I'm having a bad feeling about this situation." Others: "Well, if you're just going to complain and not offer up solutions you might as well not say anything" OR *come up with a story that doesn't fit my experience at all, and solve THAT story instead of mine*.
• Other: "I'm having a bad feeling about this." Me: "What can I do to help?" Other: "You know very well what to do!" Me: *does a thing* Other: "Ack, not that!"

So true - I've been on both sides of those equations.

Southern Kross, from a while back you were talking about how INFJs don't acknowledge the elephant in the room AND don't ask questions about it either. Personally, I don't even see there's an elephant in the room. (I just see people pinging off interpretations of others' statements, some more charitable and solution-focused than others, and I see that people are getting hurt and don't know how to stop hurting people in return - all human processes, not pachyderm processes). So I'm going to ask questions about it: Can you describe this elephant, not just the 'one should not bring elephants into rooms' one but the real live one in this thread?

See even we even disagree on how 'elephanty' the elephant is.

While I feel like that happens a lot with INFJs (not a criticism, just a observation) in a variety of different ways in general, in this case I was mainly referring to the INFJs' emotional reaction to what PB was saying (eg. hurt, frustration, confusion, annoyance etc). I was trying to illustrate that you guys just work around problems, trying to fix them obliquely, even your own emotions, when sometimes all you have to say is "I feel X" or "I don't understand". Fi is very sensitive to elephants, so to speak, and can start reacting to the disconnect (between what you say/do vs what is going on in your inner world) rather than the actual content. This leads to a external response that might seem like a total emotional non-sequitur to you. Arguments ensue...

Southern Kross, you also asked for examples of backtracking. I have one: My husband and I currently live in a city, and we're slowly starting to consider moving. He said "I'm done with this city, let's move somewhere else." That gave me a bit of uneasiness, but since I couldn't place it I said "Not exactly ecstatic about this, but I think it's a good idea to start looking outside of the city." Later I backtracked, because I figured out that the source of the unease was that I didn't want to be too far away from my friends - husband commutes by car so I'm stuck with public transport/bicycle, and I still want to be able to go over to friends for dinner after a working day without being home really late or only getting to see them for an hour before having to head home. So I backtracked to "I'm still on board with your wish to live outside of this city, but I don't want to live too far away from my friends."

(Of course that led us into an argument because he figured that I was going to prevent him from LOOKING at houses because of some vague random feelingness, whereas I was just trying to say that this would be one of my criteria for CHOOSING, and that I'd be happy to operationalize 'not too far away' into 'need to be able to get into city in 20 minutes by public transport, and need to be max 10 minutes away from public transport starting place.' Yay, personality types... Edited to add: if he's ever unsure about anything, he just vetoes it altogether until he convinces himself. He's ISTJ. To me, my way at least gets us moving, to him, his way at least doesn't cause any movement in the wrong direction.)

Hmm. I don't know if this is the same thing. This seems like just changing your mind, which is perhaps different?

But maybe it's just that the internal process is not what I expected, and seems incongruent with what I see externally. Did the about-face really piss off or confuse your husband when you did it? I mean, in the way you explained it to him, did he grasp your thought-process and understand why you would change your mind, or did he react negatively immediately?

 

[PeaceBaby]

For me, the key word here is "enjoy." The emotional energy in us to be enjoyed is a food source (metaphorically speaking). Somehow INFJs show up as a great possible source of this food (others may as well, but since the discussion is about PB's attraction to INFJs). That's the source of the attraction to us despite all this claimed pain and difficulty. That's what is sought.

Since this sentence seems to be raising some additional questions, I will respond to this directly.

This is a common phrase for me to use. I spent many years working in customer service related positions. "I hope you enjoy that!", "Enjoy your day" or "It would be my pleasure to help you" and a bunch of other "enjoy" variations are wired now as a way I speak to people.

It's me being polite. It's not about me wanting to be an emo-succubus. Why would I need yours when I have more than enough of my own emotions, thanks.

I will try to use more precise words to convey my meaning though. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[Ghost]

I just want to make my view clear here, I'm totally OK with INFJs needing some conversation on their terms. I think in a thread like this in particular, it should be expected to a larger degree. But I agree there has to be some negotiation on this front.

Oh, I agree. It's okay for INFJs to want things from an interaction or express dissatisfaction with how an interaction is unfolding. There are times when I feel that INFJs' requests are being ignored. (I ignored some requests, like the request for Si information, because I lack the means or inclination to fulfill them.)

The definitions, intentions, and solutions are important to a conversation—I'm just terrible at them. I don't think it's wrong or demanding to ask for those things, and I hope I didn't lead anyone else to think so.

 

[Werebudgie]

For me, the key word here is "enjoy." The emotional energy in us to be enjoyed is a food source (metaphorically speaking). Somehow INFJs show up as a great possible source of this food (others may as well, but since the discussion is about PB's attraction to INFJs). That's the source of the attraction to us despite all this claimed pain and difficulty. That's what is sought.

That was my reading of it also.

I didn't see that coming! Could you please humor me in my desire for as much redundant clarity here as possible?

So to be clear: [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], am I understanding correctly that you actually see that PeaceBaby interacts with INFJs as if our emotional energy is a metaphorical food source for her? And you further see that this setup is the source of her attraction to INFJs despite all the claimed pain and difficulty she claims she experiences in interaction with us?

I wonder if I misunderstand, so want to be as clear as possible.

And behind that hunger is a void that creates the hunger in the first place. That's likely the "keep your eye on the birdie" place that we're not supposed to see.

Note: The above is what I see and feel at that visceral gut level. It is not a definitive statement of truth, just what I perceive at this time. I strongly encourage others to assess this for yourself based on how it feels/looks to you. For INFJs, if gut feeling serves you as useful information, I'd suggest checking that gut feeling level carefully and see what perception it yields.

This, I don't get. What do you mean? Can you expand on this?

Which part don't you get? The hunger and void behind the hunger part, some or all of the following note, both? If you could focus me better with specific parts and if possible specific questions, I'd think I'd be better able answer your question.

OK. I can accept that.

Thank you for accepting it. And just to be clear, my boundary setting with you about conversation #1 and #2 isn't specific to or even primarily sourced in the PeaceBaby part of our discussion. It's more general, based on my emerging understanding of where you and I are each coming overall, when in comes to Ni-Se perception, at least in INFJs. (If I've misunderstood where you're coming from more generally we could talk about it to get me clear, but it was based on various pieces of information even beyond our dialogue).

It just pains me that people I like individually, don't get along with and see the value in each other (@Fidelia included). I suppose I'm probably naive to presume that because I can appreciate your view, and I can appreciate her view, you could appreciate each other's and that would solve things. That's perhaps why I seem resistant to your reading of things. I don't want to admit it's just hopeless and that you're all incompatible people. I just want to keep fighting for a better solution.

This is part of why I'm confused about the first bit that I quoted in this reply. I don't understand why, if you see that PeaceBaby seeks to feed on INFJs' emotional energy, you would want us to appreciate her view and get along with her. This is why I feel like maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean when you say "That was my reading of it also" in reply to that part of my description.

Is feeding on other people's emotional energy (like PeaceBaby seeks to do) an okay thing for someone to do, in your view? And I don't even know if that's the right question. I ask because for me such a configuration is - to be blunt - functionally parasitic. And while I can understand that parasitically feeding entities need to survive just as much as anyone, I myself personally don't want to try get along with one whose desired food source is me or people like me. So .... what am I missing or misunderstanding here re: your perspective on this particular topic? (These are not rhetorical questions).

One other thing that's been hovering in the back of my mind. Southern Kross, I was struck by a particular strong difference between your response to PB's approach and my INFP partner's response when I initially described some of PB's comments to her. Specifically: It seems that you two had almost opposite reactions as related to identifying with PeaceBaby.

1. My INFP partner did not identify with PB at all. And I mean, at all. The lack of identification was so strong that my partner's immediate response to my description was: "She's not INFP. She doesn't use words like an INFP. She doesn't feel to me like an INFP." (PB was in her "speaking in Ti-ish" mode at that point). The notable thing for me in bringing this up is not the question of "Is PB INFP or not" - it's my INFP partner's clear lack of identification with PB. It was from that space that my partner came to the analysis she came to in this comment here.

2. I see the above in contrast to a comment from you that was part of the thread in your dialogue with [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION]:

As it has been said before, INFPs often react to things in "feeling tones", which are some of the most intangible concepts in existence. I suppose what happened was that I picked up a vibe, and then I saw PB reacting in a way that I grasped with familiarity, and I connected the two naturally. When I talked about empathising strongly with her, I mean that I felt that I felt her feelings so keenly as if they were channelled through me. I could feel all the unsaid things behind what she said so clearly - I could hear her inner voice.* Now I'm sure I got some details wrong, but the underlying elements I'm believe were fairly accurate.

To me this (especially the part I bolded) suggests some deep level of - if "identification" isn't the right word, something in that neighborhood. In any case, it seems opposite to my INFP's "I don't feel her as INFP at all" non-identification response.

So I'm going to be really blunt here. PB initially hooked me in by "speaking Ti" in a way that piqued my curiosity. With even a bit of observation of that practice, it seemed to me that PB is quite smart and learns how to "speak" various cognitive and feeling-tone languages that will appeal to whoever she is trying to - to use the most polite possible word I can think of here - affect. Like .... there are trigger tones and words and approaches that appeal to various possible audiences. In my case, it was that Ti-like approach, and that approach left room for my partner to not-identify with PB at that point.

So here's the really really blunt part: I do wonder if in other parts of her communication, PB was somehow able to "speak" in trigger tones (or something like that) that somehow pulled you into that strong identification with her that you describe. Is that possible? I really hope this isn't too much bluntness here. I could be wrong but this really struck me and has been hanging in the back of my head for a little while now.

 

[Coriolis]

Unfortunately, I think change comes with the price of being uncomfortable. Everyone seems to agree that the norm (INFP/INFJ communication) isn't working in some way. It's at an impasse. Slow, steady, diplomatic change is possible, but like rain wearing down a mountain, it might take so much time that it might not be practical. So, perhaps an earthquake is needed in order to bring some of the hidden strata to light and foster change. Not a very pleasant idea, an earthquake. Most people, whether Fe or Fi, won't want to start one because the consequences can be devastating. So, people tend to not speak up against the status quo, even if they don't agree with it. Hopefully, a lesser degree of shaking up will suffice to move what wants to stay in place. But until enough people are uncomfortable enough with the norm to act, the norm is what we'll be stuck with. Because Fe wants a smooth running system, whether that system is optimal or not. And Fi might not like the system they're stuck in, but they don't tend towards organizing into groups, and they have so little power against the group as individuals, that they end up bending or breaking.

Fi dom/aux, perhaps, but with Te dom/aux (Fi tert/inf) it is quite a different story. Same with that desire to avoid being uncomfortable. Anyone can understand on some theoretical level that growth is change, and often even comes out of confict, all of which can be quite uncomfortable. Some types have an easier time, however, engaging the process willingly and productively. Not sure if this is more T vs. F, or Je vs. Ji.

Interesting. Never thought about it exactly this way. One additional wrinkle, IMO, is that F is the dom process for one (INFP - Fi) and the aux process for the other (INFJ - Fe). Same with INTP/INTJ and Ti/Te. I mention this because I continue to suspect that the differences in dominant processes is important as well - meaning introverted perceiving versus introverted judging.

I had the same thought as Uumlau, though he beat me to posting. I have had the same disconnects with my INTP, where I am trying to be helpful in laying out my wants and preferences and inviting him to do the same, so we can come to some mutually satisfactory arrangement, but somehow it often just goes wrong. And the business about not trying to go through the "middle process" together is right on the money. We have learned to agree on our starting specifications, then go our separate ways to develop a solution, which we then come back and share together. Our different processes do indeed often produce quite similar outcomes.

(tangent that is possibly but maybe not moving outside of the metaphor: in the actual world of tech, I want want WANT to try Linux. Have been wanting this for years, but haven't have the time. I only learned Windows because it's so prevalent and it was just there a lot more than Linux)

But linux and the many programs written for it are FREE, which to me means there is no comparison, especially since most any commonplace task can be done as readily under linux as windows. No regular and costly upgrade creep; no song-and-dance online activations; no worries about how many systems you install on. The whole philosophy of linux is to allow the user as much control as possible; you can look under the hood anywhere. OTOH, graphical interfaces like Ubuntu (which I use) mean you don't have to if you don't want to. Best of both worlds. You should give it a try. I did several years ago, and haven't looked back.

I just had an interesting thought. Working it out, out-loud.

We know INJ's are perceivers and INP's are judgers, Pi dom and Ji dom respectively. Yet neither of us speak in our native tongue on the forum and perhaps, especially so in writing.

INP's "should" be speaking in analytical logic or value-based judgements . . .

INJ's "should" (but don't) talk in perception-speak

Could it be much simpler than that, namely that each of these IN types is speaking from his/her highest extraverted function? It can be hard to convey the content of our internal dominant functions to others. I know as an INTJ, I speak mostly from Te, because it is the best way to make my Ni thoughts intelligible to an outside audience, especially people who don't know me well, and lack the track record (not to mention patience) of handling unfiltered Ni?

 

[March]

See even we even disagree on how 'elephanty' the elephant is.

While I feel like that happens a lot with INFJs (not a criticism, just a observation) in a variety of different ways in general, in this case I was mainly referring to the INFJs' emotional reaction to what PB was saying (eg. hurt, frustration, confusion, annoyance etc). I was trying to illustrate that you guys just work around problems, trying to fix them obliquely, even your own emotions, when sometimes all you have to say is "I feel X" or "I don't understand". Fi is very sensitive to elephants, so to speak, and can start reacting to the disconnect (between what you say/do vs what is going on in your inner world) rather than the actual content. This leads to a external response that might seem like a total emotional non-sequitur to you. Arguments ensue...

Interesting.

I wonder, why do you feel the need to 'fight it out' out loud? If your insight into other people's state of mind is superior (which it sure seems to be from your stories - this is not a dig in any way but a granting of 'you can obviously do things I can't') AND you tend to trust your Fi, why talk about it? You KNOW, right?

I'm put in mind of arguments I used to have with my (INFP) mother. I'd be hiding how I felt, she'd be chasing after me going "But you're feeling nervous. I KNOW these things. You ARE. No denying it! I can FEEL it!" Unfortunately, her Fi wasn't (and still isn't, and I'm 30 now) that well calibrated to my system, so she'd routinely tell me I was nervous when I was actually sick and that I was sick when I was actually nervous, and more. But she wouldn't let me have my emotional privacy. I, on the other hand, adore having the drop on people. I'll whisper to myself, "Ahh, you're saying one thing and doing something else. You're denying that you actually think X but I see you really do. That's fine, you must have a reason for that. But I totally have you figured out. Don't worry, it'll be my little secret."

Why are these things elephants (suggesting they need to be talked about) instead of inconsistencies (suggesting they can just be)? Is it like PeaceBaby's crying baby metaphor, just too loud to be ignored? Not judging, just very curious.

Hmm. I don't know if this is the same thing. This seems like just changing your mind, which is perhaps different?

But maybe it's just that the internal process is not what I expected, and seems incongruent with what I see externally. Did the about-face really piss off or confuse your husband when you did it? I mean, in the way you explained it to him, did he grasp your thought-process and understand why you would change your mind, or did he react negatively immediately?

Yup, it really pissed him off. I didn't actually change my mind, I went from "Yeah, let's look outside of the city!" to "Yeah, let's look outside of the city within a certain distance from it!" I even gave him a heads-up that I wasn't feeling that gung-ho about the idea, warning him that a modification might be imminent. And I left a wide enough circle that it encompasses at least a couple of hundred potential houses.

In response, I got things like "You're trying to control me and prevent me from even looking! I need FREEEEEDOM!" (Like I would even be able to stop him from looking - I'm not going to install 'don't display houses further out than 30 km from this location, and then only in villages with a train station' software on all of his devices. Go look all you want, mister.)

When quizzed upon it, he of course said that we were going to choose together and that we weren't going to move unless we both wanted to, and that we were going to take into account each other's irrational preferences like "I just don't like the look of this thing" (which he has a LOT of too) and that it was even okay to set preferences in advance, like "I want a house with at least 3 bedrooms and large windows", even if that limited the number of houses we could consider. All very reasonable.

But when I reiterated "Okay, and one of my preferences-in-advance is the distance" he went spare again. After a lot of touching base, we finally figured out that he needed to understand that 'not too far' meant 'maximum 20 minute bus/train/tram ride into the city', but even now he knows that he needs me to say those exact words instead of 'not too far' or 'within the range we came up with,' or it triggers his 'stop trying to control me!' mode. Even though he KNOWS they're the same.

Edited to add: And when I tried to tell him WHY (I'm more dependent for my mental well-being on my friends than you are so they're going to weigh more heavily in my calculations, I don't have a car to use during the day because you take our car to work AND I don't feel comfortable getting a second car, I want to be able to get there and back while spending enough time with them), he instinctively tried to downplay either the importance of my friends (Ah, but you'll be fine without them!) or the travel period (Ah, but you even if you have to travel an hour and a half both ways you can still get the same enjoyment out of an evening with them as you do now, having to travel 20 minutes!). "It's wrong to decide on such an important thing by taking other people into account! They're not promising YOU that they're going to stay around, are they?" Bloody Te. Defining the problem out of existence is also a way of solving it. But he knows that won't fly.

I'd say it was interesting if it weren't so frustrating.

 

[Eilonwy]

Fi dom/aux, perhaps, but with Te dom/aux (Fi tert/inf) it is quite a different story. Same with that desire to avoid being uncomfortable. Anyone can understand on some theoretical level that growth is change, and often even comes out of confict, all of which can be quite uncomfortable. Some types have an easier time, however, engaging the process willingly and productively. Not sure if this is more T vs. F, or Je vs. Ji.

I generalized too much! Yes, what I wrote was more applicable to F types.

But some of it still applies. In the case of INTJs, what I've seen here on the forum, from my pov, is that they aren't afraid of the discomfort, either their own or what they might cause in others, but they don't organize or speak up much in support of each other when one has a cause. It's a lone voice in the wilderness, which usually ends up being labeled as "crazy INTJ". (And set upon by a flock of Fe-using INTPs!)

Part of what I was trying to say, and did that badly, is that when Fi does try to foster change, it tends to end up being a lone voice, unless it can get some Fe support--as far as I see it. And getting Fe support can prove to be difficult because of the communication difficulties and differing thought processes.


ETA: Always the possibility that the pattern I see is, ultimately, not a pattern.

 

[Eilonwy]

I didn't see that coming! Could you please humor me in my desire for as much redundant clarity here as possible?

So to be clear: [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], am I understanding correctly that you actually see that PeaceBaby interacts with INFJs as if our emotional energy is a metaphorical food source for her? And you further see that this setup is the source of her attraction to INFJs despite all the claimed pain and difficulty she claims she experiences in interaction with us?

I wonder if I misunderstand, so want to be as clear as possible.



Which part don't you get? The hunger and void behind the hunger part, some or all of the following note, both? If you could focus me better with specific parts and if possible specific questions, I'd think I'd be better able answer your question.



Thank you for accepting it. And just to be clear, my boundary setting with you about conversation #1 and #2 isn't specific to or even primarily sourced in the PeaceBaby part of our discussion. It's more general, based on my emerging understanding of where you and I are each coming overall, when in comes to Ni-Se perception, at least in INFJs. (If I've misunderstood where you're coming from more generally we could talk about it to get me clear, but it was based on various pieces of information even beyond our dialogue).



This is part of why I'm confused about the first bit that I quoted in this reply. I don't understand why, if you see that PeaceBaby seeks to feed on INFJs' emotional energy, you would want us to appreciate her view and get along with her. This is why I feel like maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean when you say "That was my reading of it also" in reply to that part of my description.

Is feeding on other people's emotional energy (like PeaceBaby seeks to do) an okay thing for someone to do, in your view? And I don't even know if that's the right question. I ask because for me such a configuration is - to be blunt - functionally parasitic. And while I can understand that parasitically feeding entities need to survive just as much as anyone, I myself personally don't want to try get along with one whose desired food source is me or people like me. So .... what am I missing or misunderstanding here re: your perspective on this particular topic? (These are not rhetorical questions).

One other thing that's been hovering in the back of my mind. Southern Kross, I was struck by a particular strong difference between your response to PB's approach and my INFP partner's response when I initially described some of PB's comments to her. Specifically: It seems that you two had almost opposite reactions as related to identifying with PeaceBaby.

1. My INFP partner did not identify with PB at all. And I mean, at all. The lack of identification was so strong that my partner's immediate response to my description was: "She's not INFP. She doesn't use words like an INFP. She doesn't feel to me like an INFP." (PB was in her "speaking in Ti-ish" mode at that point). The notable thing for me in bringing this up is not the question of "Is PB INFP or not" - it's my INFP partner's clear lack of identification with PB. It was from that space that my partner came to the analysis she came to in this comment here.

2. I see the above in contrast to a comment from you that was part of the thread in your dialogue with [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION]:



To me this (especially the part I bolded) suggests some deep level of - if "identification" isn't the right word, something in that neighborhood. In any case, it seems opposite to my INFP's "I don't feel her as INFP at all" non-identification response.

So I'm going to be really blunt here. PB initially hooked me in by "speaking Ti" in a way that piqued my curiosity. With even a bit of observation of that practice, it seemed to me that PB is quite smart and learns how to "speak" various cognitive and feeling-tone languages that will appeal to whoever she is trying to - to use the most polite possible word I can think of here - affect. Like .... there are trigger tones and words and approaches that appeal to various possible audiences. In my case, it was that Ti-like approach, and that approach left room for my partner to not-identify with PB at that point.

So here's the really really blunt part: I do wonder if in other parts of her communication, PB was somehow able to "speak" in trigger tones (or something like that) that somehow pulled you into that strong identification with her that you describe. Is that possible? I really hope this isn't too much bluntness here. I could be wrong but this really struck me and has been hanging in the back of my head for a little while now.

I realize that you requested that I refrain from any discussion with you, but this is such a blatant attempt at public shaming and denigration that I have to comment. If you felt that you had to have this conversation with [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], you should have taken it private, rather than denigrate a third party indirectly in the public forum in what looks to be an attempt to gain support for your own feelings about [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]. Fine, you don't like her. Why do you feel the need to make sure that others see that and agree with you? Why didn't you simply tell her, like you told me, that you no longer wish to discuss anything with her and leave it at that?

This is a public thread. PeaceBaby is allowed to post in it. If any of the INFJs in this thread don't want to interact with her, they don't have to. But just because you don't want to, doesn't mean that others have to follow your lead.

 

[PeaceBaby]

So I'm going to be really blunt here. PB initially hooked me in by "speaking Ti" in a way that piqued my curiosity. With even a bit of observation of that practice, it seemed to me that PB is quite smart and learns how to "speak" various cognitive and feeling-tone languages that will appeal to whoever she is trying to - to use the most polite possible word I can think of here - affect. Like .... there are trigger tones and words and approaches that appeal to various possible audiences. In my case, it was that Ti-like approach, and that approach left room for my partner to not-identify with PB at that point.

So here's the really really blunt part: I do wonder if in other parts of her communication, PB was somehow able to "speak" in trigger tones (or something like that) that somehow pulled you into that strong identification with her that you describe. Is that possible? I really hope this isn't too much bluntness here. I could be wrong but this really struck me and has been hanging in the back of my head for a little while now.

Guilty until proven innocent eh? A familiar credo.

How about instead, PeaceBaby thinks in a lot of different ways. Or PeaceBaby stretches her mind to try to approach problems from a variety of cognitive angles? Or PeaceBaby is kind enough to try to speak various cognitive languages so that she can more clearly convey her ideas and connect to a wide variety of people? Or that PeaceBaby takes time to try to foster communication with people no matter what cognitive language they speak? Or even when they are not kind to her? That the origin place of that effort is one of deep caring rather than what's being suggested here, one of evil manipulation?

Your post is the poisoned pen. What you're doing here is gaslighting this thread and fomenting dissension against me as an individual. Maybe you're not familiar with being on forums, and I understand that you want to explore this. But this type of torch-burning activity violates the forum rules, but more importantly, the rules of just simply treating another human being as a human being.

I'll respond to any questions you have, but if you cannot speak to me directly, then please stop referencing me in the third person and planting seeds of dissent. I've tolerated your behaviour, which I might add is indicative of ignored or poorly developed Fe, for some time. I am drawing the line here.

 

[1487610420]

Typology Rule #12654: if someone's words/demeanor/reasoning challenges accepted stereotypes, thwarting one's argument and potentially causing major upheaval to one's inner world, simple rule it as a mistyped nutcase in denial.

Some people have their head so deep up their own ass, that it's cringe worthy seeing the efforts they go to to justify their self-righteousness.

 

[garbage]

I gotta say, this thread got a bunch of *cough* flags waved up all in our faces. Part of the mods' job is to peer around at the context behind the attention. Reading through, though, I can't make heads or tails of this one. Roger Rabbit smashing plates over his head for 10 minutes is a close approximation for what I'm seeing.

Regardless of what I do or don't think, though, y'all should know that we're gonna have to keep a bit of an eye out on this thread.

Hey, everyone! The mods are still here. :hi: And we all pretty much agree that this thread is currently problematic.

I can't be assed to see who all this applies to, since the thread's all spaghetti, but... *ahem*.

Stop making this thread all about one particular member.

You probably don't want us to come and pee in the sandbox and ruin it for everyone involved, but I gotta say that our bladders are very much itching at this point.

Use discretion. Choose words carefully. And so on.

Thanks.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Why are these things elephants (suggesting they need to be talked about) instead of inconsistencies (suggesting they can just be)? Is it like PeaceBaby's crying baby metaphor, just too loud to be ignored? Not judging, just very curious.

I suspect this is exactly what they've been trying to say about the INFJ "sticking points". Fi and Ni have significantly different unconscious priorities. It's kind of like asking, "Why can't you ignore the thing you inherently consider a priority, for just a moment, to hear what I'm telling you is my priority?" [And actually, I wouldn't respond badly to that....I think what I respond badly to is when Fi sounds more like "Why can't you ignore the thing you inherently consider a priority, for just a moment, to hear The Ultimate Truthiest Priority I'm trying to share with you.....so that then we might both enjoy the CORRECT priority?"]

At any rate, this 'elephant in the room' business goes both ways. [Just because I realize that doesn't mean I think it's worth it to do the work of ignoring my own elephant for any ol' body....which is one way I actually think Ni is more about 'the individual' than Fi, and may even be one of the reasons this thread exists in the first place (because an INFJ may be aware their own elephant is getting in the way of getting along with another person, but the elephant wins).]

 

[yeghor]

Fi-dom versus Fi-aux

I've been thinking about Fi after making the distinction between Fe-dom and Fe-aux...

So what may be the difference between Fi-dom and Fi-aux...?

Here's my primitive take on it (by Fi-dom, Fe-dom etc..I mean the attitude/mentality behind the function):

Se-Fi -> propels the owner to seek out physical thrills in physical (bodily) environment that will make the owner feel good (about herself/himself)?

Ne-Fi -> propels the owner to seek out (mental) options/perspectives/alternatives that will make the owner feel good (about herself/himself)?

Is Fi-dom rather about staying true to one's values so that one may feel good about herself/himself (in his/her actions) whereas Fi-aux is about finding ways to make one feel good about himself/herself just for the sake of feeling good?

So Fi-aux is a means/tool to an end (feeling good) whereas Fi-dom is itself an end/goal (of being self) in itself...?

So Fi-dom = I feel X therefore I'll act Y...?

whereas Fi-aux = I act Y so that I'll feel X...?

So Fi-dom actually does not have a (direct) conflict with Fe-aux...?

Can it be that Fi-dom is more self-aware (related to ego) whereas Fi-aux is more instinctive/primal (related to id)...?

Does Fi-dom have any direct conflict with Fe-dom?​

I've always found Fi to be self centered...but now I am inclined to think I was have rather been irritated by unhealthy/hedonistic versions of Fi-aux...

Just some assumptions and food for thought...

 

[yeghor]

Hey, everyone! The mods are still here. :hi: And we all pretty much agree that this thread is currently problematic.

I can't be assed to see who all this applies to, since the thread's all spaghetti, but stop making this thread all about one particular member.

You probably don't want us to come and pee in the sandbox and ruin it for everyone involved, but I gotta say that our bladders are very much itching at this point.

Use discretion. Choose words carefully. And so on.

Thanks.

1600 posts and not one admin intervention...till now...

INFJs have been called all kinds of shit in the thread...no intervention...why?

Because INFJs have just opted to defend their position, views and thoughts...we've held ourselves accountable to respond back...They've questioned our sanity, our ability to make decisions on our own...as if we were insane/disabled somehow...no intervention...

What happens when we've held others accountable to explaining where they are coming from? When we've questioned their sanity and ability to come to conclusions?...Intervention...Why?

Because someone knows how to cry louder than us...becuase we are accountable and they are not...

Because it is OK to disperage a group of people but not an individual...

Our disadvantage is that INFJs suck when it comes to playing the victim...well until now...at least...

I can understand you feeling the need to show your presence in the thread...fine...

Just please be more active in keeping a tight leash on this INFJ bashing thing from now on...when INFJs start sending you complaints when they feel they are being mistreated OK?

Thank you...

 

[1487610420]

1600 posts and not one admin intervention...till now...

INFJs have been called all kinds of shit in the thread...no intervention...why?

Because INFJs have just opted to defend their position, views and thoughts...we've held ourselves accountable to respond back...They've questioned our sanity, our ability to make decisions on our own...as if we were insane/disabled somehow...no intervention...

What happens when we've held others accountable to explaining where they are coming from? When we've questioned their sanity and ability to come to conclusions?...Intervention...Why?

Because someone knows how to cry louder than us...becuase we are accountable and they are not...

Because it is OK to disperage a group of people but not an individual...

Our disadvantage is that INFJs suck when it comes to playing the victim...well until now...at least...

I can understand you feeling the need to show your presence in the thread...fine...

Just please be more active in keeping a tight leash on this INFJ bashing thing from now on...when INFJs start sending you complaints when they feel they are being mistreated OK?

Thank you...