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[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

Ghost

Megustalations
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You're right, my post talked about INFJ needs. To my way of thinking, it is easiest for both parties to decide whether they want to engage further if both lay out what they need for the conversation to be productive. I'm not asking someone to come all the way to my side of the park. In fact, I would prefer that they also lay out what they need and we both determine if/how we want to proceed from there.

I think one commonality in a lot of these INFJ posts is that we are doing what we ourselves would like done if we were on the receiving end - stating our intentions/feelings and offering what we see as a workable alternative to the present situation. I don't see that as an ultimatum, but rather as being proactive. It's not fair just to make hazy, general complaints and not give the other person any idea of what I think would be better. However, that doesn't mean that the person has to accept that solution. They are free to counter with a different perspective or proposed course of action. If they are similar enough that both parties want to make the adjustment, great. If not, one or both can opt not to follow that course of action.

Were various INFJs stating their intentions and offering alternatives before the conversation began to help it develop and meet its best potential? This is interesting. I did see people ask for definitions of door-slamming, which I could interpret as setting up the rest of the discussion, but it seemed like, even if the term were eventually defined in a way several INFJs agreed with, another sticking point would immediately be found.

What are signs that an INFJ is offering alternatives or starting negotiations? At times, it looked like some INFJs were restricting the conversation to their terms and refusing to move forward from there. It's good to see I may have misunderstood. I'd like to be able to identify what's negotiable and non-negotiable because it's not so obvious to me. Also, what happens to INFJs when they join a conversation like this one without being able to reference everyone's feelings and agendas? I'm curious what the downside is and how it looks internally.

I forgot to ask: do other INFJs relate to the quoted section above?

The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

I'm a newcomer to the forum. I've hesitated to step into this thread, especially since I don't know you all as well as you know each other. For me, new people entered the conversation—which had been dominated by a few voices—reminding me that anyone can participate.

This is a strange thing to be concerned about. Even if your hunch were true, I don't see anything wrong with people dropping in to support or agree with another poster. I doubt anything sinister is going on.

If it felt to you like we were ganging up on [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

Does it occur to you to second guess your assumptions?
 

March

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[MENTION=18763]Ghost[/MENTION], I completely relate to that quote from [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION].

Not sure how much of that is life experience and how much is personality, but there are two scenarios that relate to this quote that have occurred in my life quite often and have made a deep impression.

  • Me: "I'm having a bad feeling about this situation." Others: "Well, if you're just going to complain and not offer up solutions you might as well not say anything" OR *come up with a story that doesn't fit my experience at all, and solve THAT story instead of mine*.
  • Other: "I'm having a bad feeling about this." Me: "What can I do to help?" Other: "You know very well what to do!" Me: *does a thing* Other: "Ack, not that!"

I assume everybody runs into situations like this. But maybe it's INFJish to 'solve' this problem by going "Ah! These are two sides of the same coin, and I can treat people like I wish to be treated. If I have a complaint, I'll undersell the problem and focus on the solution (so we can jump right into the resolution and I don't have to ask people to consider my emotions, which was usually the sticking point), and if other people have complaints, I'll ask them what they want and stop trying random things that usually turn out not to be what they want anyway. Tadaa!"

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], from a while back you were talking about how INFJs don't acknowledge the elephant in the room AND don't ask questions about it either. Personally, I don't even see there's an elephant in the room. (I just see people pinging off interpretations of others' statements, some more charitable and solution-focused than others, and I see that people are getting hurt and don't know how to stop hurting people in return - all human processes, not pachyderm processes). So I'm going to ask questions about it: Can you describe this elephant, not just the 'one should not bring elephants into rooms' one but the real live one in this thread?

I also agree with [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]'s assessment that I like to get to a kind of common ground, or maybe common cause, before going into explaining differences. First I want to be sure that rhetorical-you and I are on the same team, striving for the same thing, and THEN I'm going to share the details about what that looks like for me. Doesn't mean we're not still on the same team! We are. Just that it now seems relevant for me to share differences. If we're not even going to get on the same team, what's the point in sharing all that detail? You're not committed to me so why would you even consider bending my way? Whereas if we're on a team, it's useful for us to share what exquisite collaboration would look like, so we can get there even if talking about it sheds light on a couple of hurdles we hadn't seen before.

Of course I know that other people don't work like that, but it's still the most balanced-feeling assumption for me when dealing with a new person. People I've known longer I can adapt to - I know my husband, f'rex, doesn't care about differences as much as I do so I can just tell him what I need without telling him WHY and he'll give it to me even though he doesn't understand. And over the years I've learned to keep an eye out for when my 'natural' approach doesn't work, and shift to an 'adopted' approach.

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION], you also asked for examples of backtracking. I have one: My husband and I currently live in a city, and we're slowly starting to consider moving. He said "I'm done with this city, let's move somewhere else." That gave me a bit of uneasiness, but since I couldn't place it I said "Not exactly ecstatic about this, but I think it's a good idea to start looking outside of the city." Later I backtracked, because I figured out that the source of the unease was that I didn't want to be too far away from my friends - husband commutes by car so I'm stuck with public transport/bicycle, and I still want to be able to go over to friends for dinner after a working day without being home really late or only getting to see them for an hour before having to head home. So I backtracked to "I'm still on board with your wish to live outside of this city, but I don't want to live too far away from my friends."

(Of course that led us into an argument because he figured that I was going to prevent him from LOOKING at houses because of some vague random feelingness, whereas I was just trying to say that this would be one of my criteria for CHOOSING, and that I'd be happy to operationalize 'not too far away' into 'need to be able to get into city in 20 minutes by public transport, and need to be max 10 minutes away from public transport starting place.' Yay, personality types... Edited to add: if he's ever unsure about anything, he just vetoes it altogether until he convinces himself. He's ISTJ. To me, my way at least gets us moving, to him, his way at least doesn't cause any movement in the wrong direction.)
 

Werebudgie

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The discrepancies, differences, and interplay between Fi/Ne and Ni/Fe have always seemed to be of special interest to me because of how paradoxically familiar yet alien Ni/Fe can seem to me. NFJs tend to wind up in the same places I do, attempting to achieve similar goals, but different things motivate you guys, so you respond in almost the exact opposite ways under the same stimuli.

Not sure if this is exactly the same thing, but to me it at least seems connected somehow: My INFP partner and I have long noticed that we very often end up in the same place but come from opposite directions. Tonight we had an interesting discussion about a pretty big-deal real life logistical issue requiring our attention and action over time. She brought up the difference between process and goal in a way I find really useful. She said: look, we share the same goal here, but our processes for understanding how to get there are very different. She suggested that we focus on the fact that we share the goal and not try to share the process. The metaphor she used was walking through the woods with a destination in mind. We start together at the beginning of the trail, and we know we'll meet up at the end (our shared goal). But we each go our own way through the woods (our different processes to get there).

This made/makes a lot of sense to me. We know from experience that we very very often wind up in the same places, share the same goals. We know also that our ways of getting there are very different. We've run into trouble when we've tried to do that middle part - the process of getting there - together. When we try to do that, one or the other or (all too often) both of us feel steamrolled.

We've had all sorts of heated arguments that end up with us realizing that we actually agree. The problem we've experienced is: once the energy of those middle-space (how we each get there) arguments takes hold, even agreement doesn't mitigate the negative experience of the argument. Whatever that middle space (opposite processes/responses to stimuli etc) is, the INFP/INFJ tensions it raises can pack a real punch, in our experience at least. I mean, there have been times we can be explicitly talking with each other about "Hey, look, we actually agree on the conclusions/goals here" after tensions were raised, and still that middle-space energy is floating around. Like it's sticky or something.

Also, just a note from my perspective: I myself mostly care about INFP/INFJ dynamics because as it turns out, the love of my life is INFP and I am INFJ. As different as we are, we're also well-matched in some very clear ways that have nothing to do with our respective cognitive functions. And no matter what else is going on, we love each other a lot and that just doesn't go away. Beyond that - IMO a "personal connection" friendship possibility or even "useful mutual dialogue opportunities" will not be an option for me and any/all INFPs, since we are all different people and (this is really important from my perspective) cognitive processes are only one part of any of us.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Not sure if this is exactly the same thing, but to me it at least seems connected somehow: My INFP partner and I have long noticed that we very often end up in the same place but come from opposite directions. Tonight we had an interesting discussion about a pretty big-deal real life logistical issue requiring our attention and action over time. She brought up the difference between process and goal in a way I find really useful. She said: look, we share the same goal here, but our processes for understanding how to get there are very different. She suggested that we focus on the fact that we share the goal and not try to share the process. The metaphor she used was walking through the woods with a destination in mind. We start together at the beginning of the trail, and we know we'll meet up at the end (our shared goal). But we each go our own way through the woods (our different processes to get there).

This made/makes a lot of sense to me. We know from experience that we very very often wind up in the same places, share the same goals. We know also that our ways of getting there are very different. We've run into trouble when we've tried to do that middle part - the process of getting there - together. When we try to do that, one or the other or (all too often) both of us feel steamrolled.

We've had all sorts of heated arguments that end up with us realizing that we actually agree. The problem we've experienced is: once the energy of those middle-space (how we each get there) arguments takes hold, even agreement doesn't mitigate the negative experience of the argument. Whatever that middle space (opposite processes/responses to stimuli etc) is, the INFP/INFJ tensions it raises can pack a real punch, in our experience at least. I mean, there have been times we can be explicitly talking with each other about "Hey, look, we actually agree on the conclusions/goals here" after tensions were raised, and still that middle-space energy is floating around. Like it's sticky or something.

Also, just a note from my perspective: I myself mostly care about INFP/INFJ dynamics because as it turns out, the love of my life is INFP and I am INFJ. As different as we are, we're also well-matched in some very clear ways that have nothing to do with our respective cognitive functions. And no matter what else is going on, we love each other a lot and that just doesn't go away. Beyond that - IMO a "personal connection" friendship possibility or even "useful mutual dialogue opportunities" will not be an option for me and any/all INFPs, since we are all different people and (this is really important from my perspective) cognitive processes are only one part of any of us.

I recognize the mechanics you've illustrated here in many of my past-present interactions with INFJs - even that residual "sticky" feeling that exists because, while your logic might be mutual, communication as a whole (consisting of subconscious implications, gut feelings, and psychological muscle-memory) fails. At the same time, while INFJs seem to be quicker in drawing conclusions about their observations, I've gleaned much appreciated insight from them when I turn off my mental chatter and stop trying to iron issues out with my own rationale.

One INFJ from this site - one who will go unnamed but is still very dear to me - told me that she believed I was INFP because I "stick to my guns". As an amiable individual who tends to indirectly navigate in a lateral way through my social life, I never would have, in a million years, said something like that on my resume or in a job interview. However, she saw, in a flattering light, an integral aspect of my personality that does things on principle - something relevant to my Fi.

My point is that even in that space between you and your INFP, I believe you can lend each other tools of understanding to further your shared goals. Do you ever feel like that's happened?

---------------------

A tangential thought from our conversation, but one directly pertaining to the general topic - there is something to be learned in the silence of non-communication, through introspection. I believe INFJs excel in this regard, and I think it's possible they may, at times, expect others to do the same in the case that they've severed their ties. Does that ring true to you?
 

uumlau

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This made/makes a lot of sense to me. We know from experience that we very very often wind up in the same places, share the same goals. We know also that our ways of getting there are very different. We've run into trouble when we've tried to do that middle part - the process of getting there - together. When we try to do that, one or the other or (all too often) both of us feel steamrolled.

We've had all sorts of heated arguments that end up with us realizing that we actually agree. The problem we've experienced is: once the energy of those middle-space (how we each get there) arguments takes hold, even agreement doesn't mitigate the negative experience of the argument. Whatever that middle space (opposite processes/responses to stimuli etc) is, the INFP/INFJ tensions it raises can pack a real punch, in our experience at least. I mean, there have been times we can be explicitly talking with each other about "Hey, look, we actually agree on the conclusions/goals here" after tensions were raised, and still that middle-space energy is floating around. Like it's sticky or something.

I note the same kinds of conflicts between INTPs and INTJs. We agree, but we disagree as to what the "best proof" is. I can only imagine how this translates to the INFJ/INFP conflict: you agree, but, um, well, there's something seriously wrong about the other person's perspective ... and in Feeling-land, that can turn into a suspicion that the other person's values are somehow corrupt. (Just as I read INTPs continually insinuating that INTJ reasoning is corrupt, and vice versa.)

The only thing I can think of to ameliorate that is to realize that such suspicions are egotistical, that somehow you yourself know the "right way" to consider things, and that there are no other valid paths. It's just different "operating systems", if you will. Both Linux and Windows can be used to accomplish exactly the same tasks, but a Linux user is always going to feel uncomfortable with Windows, and vice versa. And I don't choose the "operating systems" analogy lightly: these are distinct cognitive differences between people.

Once you note that the other way of thinking is valid, THEN you can develop an attitude of learning from it. INTPs always see things that I don't, and I see things they don't, and in a team, we're nigh unstoppable as long as we leverage each other's understanding. You just need to stay away from the tendency to insinuate that there is something wro-o-o-ong (oh so very wrong!) with the other person's reasoning/values. It's just unfamiliar, not wrong. And it's not something you can gain much familiarity, because you'd have to stop thinking your normal paths in order to think in the other person's paths.
 

21%

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[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] I was going to say "different operating systems" too! INFP sends a file over, but I can't open it, and I ask him what it is, and he tells me, but I want to see it for myself to evaluate it but I just can't open the file!

Agree with everything else you say as well.
 

Fidelia

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Lots to think about here. I nearly have a response for you [MENTION=18763]Ghost[/MENTION], but still need to work a couple of questions out in my own head. I think [MENTION=13502]March[/MENTION] did a great job with her example though (well, her whole post generally). I noticed though that you asked a couple of other things too, and I need to think to come up with answers for you.

I think [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION], you may be on to something with the silence of non-communication thing. Definitely there is text buried in what is not said, or the non-interaction that happens, as well as what does happen. (Maybe a Fe thing?).

Having said that, I also know that the more complicated or detailed or important a thought I want to get across, the more perfectionistic I get about it, and then discouraged about doing it justice and then a bunch of time elapses, but to the other party, it may look like I'm intentionally avoiding the subject when it's just that it's so important, that I don't want to trivialize it (but then do by not responding). I also sometimes like a person well enough or am out of emotional juice enough that I take a long time to respond to someone via writing, even though I very much want to remain in touch with them. So I can imagine that interpreting the non-communication could get tricky.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Once you note that the other way of thinking is valid, THEN you can develop an attitude of learning from it. INTPs always see things that I don't, and I see things they don't, and in a team, we're nigh unstoppable as long as we leverage each other's understanding. You just need to stay away from the tendency to insinuate that there is something wro-o-o-ong (oh so very wrong!) with the other person's reasoning/values. It's just unfamiliar, not wrong. And it's not something you can gain much familiarity, because you'd have to stop thinking your normal paths in order to think in the other person's paths.


This is an excellent point (well, a couple excellent points crammed together).

This thread very much has the feel of explaining to INFJs how they should want to be different in a heavy-handed way.

It’s one thing to walk into a store, look around, decide you don’t especially want anything inside at that particular moment- you can catalogue in your head the kinds of items they carry so you know where to find them later if you change your mind. It’s another thing to walk into a store, look around, and- as soon as you walk past something in particular- to have the store clerk start grilling you about why you think you don’t need the thing just walked past. <-That’s annoying, and depending on the extent to which they pursue it right then and there will have a lot to do with whether or not I ever come back to this particular store while this person is working. And this thread? This thread is like having that clerk follow you out of the store, follow you everywhere you go for the rest of the day and maybe even have them continue talking at you while you’re trying to fall asleep. Fid has used the expression “being green eggs and hammed to death” before, and I think it’s totally fitting.

Because the thing is- you can’t MAKE someone want to learn from you. ['You' is meant in general, I'm feeling to lazy to figure out how else to say it.] You can’t coerce them into ‘realizing’ you have the knowledge you need by throwing even more insults. No matter how much effort is put into veiling the insults, insults are a poor (manipulative) way to sell the idea that you have wisdom the other person should want. If you put forward something you believe is of value and it just doesn’t ‘take’….so what? I think this is especially true for INFJs (delayed processing)…if at some later point we realize there was a kernel of truth in it we want to explore or that we need it, we WILL come back for it. If we don’t- like I said, throwing insults about how we obviously don’t want to “grow” (if we don’t take in the particular thing you’re selling) is only going to push us in the other direction.

Even if all the things being said about INFJs in this thread are right- I sorta don’t care at this point. Just like in the store analogy- if it turns out to be advice about something that really is throwing a wrench in interactions in my life, the notion will gestate and I’ll come back to it. This urgency for us to see it though? It’s a major deterrent. (So yes, it's available to point out how 'sensitive' we are to the deterrent.....but that doesn't actually change the value of the information you're trying to pass off either.)
 

PeaceBaby

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It's just different "operating systems", if you will. Both Linux and Windows can be used to accomplish exactly the same tasks, but a Linux user is always going to feel uncomfortable with Windows, and vice versa. And I don't choose the "operating systems" analogy lightly: these are distinct cognitive differences between people.

And this is where I am coming from.

I'm not talking to INFJs because I have shame or mommy issues to work out. I don't derive pleasure from messing about in other people's inner workings. I don't want to mentor anyone or be their best friend.

I post in here because I am trying to write translation software to bridge our OS's. I've been trying to write it for a long time. It has spin-off utility in my life so I can be a good friend and better person.

There's no other type combination in my life where things seem to go so wrong in this written format. It's perplexing! There are many factors that hinder this process from both ends of the equation, but not necessary to expand atm.

So the goal of my interactions is to bridge that gap.
 
R

RDF

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And this is where I am coming from.

I'm not talking to INFJs because I have shame or mommy issues to work out. I don't derive pleasure from messing about in other people's inner workings. I don't want to mentor anyone or be their best friend.

I post in here because I am trying to write translation software to bridge our OS's. I've been trying to write it for a long time. It has spin-off utility in my life so I can be a good friend and better person.

There's no other type combination in my life where things seem to go so wrong in this written format. It's perplexing! There are many factors that hinder this process from both ends of the equation, but not necessary to expand atm.

So the goal of my interactions is to bridge that gap.

Hi PB,

I say the following to you with much the same "constructive" approach that you demonstrate toward INFJs: You're a gadfly on this issue.

By your own account, you have spent "hundreds if not thousands of hours" over the last 5 years writing posts telling INFJs that they are doing it wrong (whatever "it" might be on a given day). That's not good typology. INFJs are going to do their own thing; it's not for other personality types to tell them how to act.

Furthermore: When you show up in an INFJ thread, there are a couple INFJs who routinely have to ignore you or leave the thread. And frankly, I feel the same way as them. It's just about impossible to have a thread where INFPs and INFJs can simply compare notes on a friendly basis. Sooner or later you show up and trash the thread with your exorbitant demands and cries for attention.

The mods have already spoken about the discord in this thread, and I don't want to disparage you unnecessarily. I promise that this is the last I'll say to you about this (on this go-around, anyway):

You're great in other threads. Mainly I just want to go on record about how I register your participation in the INFJ threads: I wish you would quit gadflying the INFJ threads, i.e., quit sucking up all the oxygen with your drama and demands for attention.
 

Eilonwy

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About the thread:

The thread's suddenly become much more crowded...At the risk of sounding paranoid, why did you (relatively at this specific moment) newcomers opted to participate all of a sudden at this exact (pivotal?) moment? This doesn't mean you shouldn't have...just curious why now? And were you silently observing the discussion all along or were you alerted to something somehow?

If it felt to you like we were ganging up on [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] and you felt for whatever reason a need to rush to her rescue and support, please really do contemplate whether you may inadvertantly be enabling her and preventing her from confronting her hurt by acting as proxies...

Here's some Ti from me, yeghor. And I've been thinking that maybe it would be more productive for INFJs to use their Ti primarily to analyze and label the group dynamic, rather than applying that to individuals. Perhaps Fe would work better when applied to the individual. Look at the group impersonally and the individuals within that group personally? Just a thought. Nothing to back it up at the moment.

You want to know why all of these people suddenly joined the thread? First, if you notice at the bottom of the thread, it will say who's viewing the thread at any given moment, so, yes, a lot of people have been reading and not participating. This has been a popular thread. Second, you need to take a step back and look at what's been happening recently through a longer lens. You're too up-close and personal right now. Look at the general group dynamic information that's available (after you read some of the descriptions in the link, do you see them happening in this thread?)

I'll tell you what I see. I see how Fe controls the group dynamic because that's what Fe is about--group dynamics. From what I understand, Fi, on the other hand, is NOT about the group at all. If you notice, most of the Fi people who have posted in the thread tend to not take sides. Their posts are either trying hard to stay as neutral as possible, or have reluctantly decided to speak to one side or the other, knowing that there are consequences for speaking up that might not align with their personal values. And a few, like PeaceBaby, have taken a firmer stance on what they see. When Fi speaks out, it's about the individual values and has little to do with the group. They aren't wired for group dynamics, but they've had to deal with them all of their lives the best they could. So, you can't see Fi as taking sides, the way Fe naturally does. The ones who have spoken out have most likely been pushed by extreme circumstances, combined with their personal values, to speak out and pick a side.

Fe on the other hand, is all about sides. We categorize. Things are this or that. Black or white. Very few grays. We poll and come to conclusions based on majority or what appears to be majority and try to work towards a smooth running system. What I see happening in the broader scope with Fe posts is that the comfortable norm was challenged. In order to get back to the more harmonious norm, there was some soft pushback. When that didn't work, there was some harder pushback. Once the pushback went beyond a certain point of social acceptance into subtle and outright personal attack, bystanders were pushed into commenting and taking sides, so that a comfortable, smooth running system might be reached again. If you notice, most of the posts that directly take a side are Fe. Those who were uncomfortable with the conflict, but didn't want to participate in it, made fluff or indirect posts to try to diffuse some of the emotion. And a few Fe posters have also tried to bring back a more diplomatic tone in order to move the conversation forward.

Unfortunately, I think change comes with the price of being uncomfortable. Everyone seems to agree that the norm (INFP/INFJ communication) isn't working in some way. It's at an impasse. Slow, steady, diplomatic change is possible, but like rain wearing down a mountain, it might take so much time that it might not be practical. So, perhaps an earthquake is needed in order to bring some of the hidden strata to light and foster change. Not a very pleasant idea, an earthquake. Most people, whether Fe or Fi, won't want to start one because the consequences can be devastating. So, people tend to not speak up against the status quo, even if they don't agree with it. Hopefully, a lesser degree of shaking up will suffice to move what wants to stay in place. But until enough people are uncomfortable enough with the norm to act, the norm is what we'll be stuck with. Because Fe wants a smooth running system, whether that system is optimal or not. And Fi might not like the system they're stuck in, but they don't tend towards organizing into groups, and they have so little power against the group as individuals, that they end up bending or breaking.

Are people doing all of this consciously? No. I don't think so. I think, for the most part, people are reacting out of their unconscious and subconscious and then providing some sort of rationalization in order to explain.

And maybe all of this will also address part of March's post, too:
I also agree with [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]'s assessment that I like to get to a kind of common ground, or maybe common cause, before going into explaining differences. First I want to be sure that rhetorical-you and I are on the same team, striving for the same thing, and THEN I'm going to share the details about what that looks like for me. Doesn't mean we're not still on the same team! We are. Just that it now seems relevant for me to share differences. If we're not even going to get on the same team, what's the point in sharing all that detail? You're not committed to me so why would you even consider bending my way? Whereas if we're on a team, it's useful for us to share what exquisite collaboration would look like, so we can get there even if talking about it sheds light on a couple of hurdles we hadn't seen before.

Of course I know that other people don't work like that, but it's still the most balanced-feeling assumption for me when dealing with a new person. People I've known longer I can adapt to - I know my husband, f'rex, doesn't care about differences as much as I do so I can just tell him what I need without telling him WHY and he'll give it to me even though he doesn't understand. And over the years I've learned to keep an eye out for when my 'natural' approach doesn't work, and shift to an 'adopted' approach.
From what I gather, it's not that Fi doesn't prefer to be on a team, it's that the whole concept of being on a team, in the way you're talking about it, is kind of foreign to them.
 

March

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From what I gather, it's not that Fi doesn't prefer to be on a team, it's that the whole concept of being on a team, in the way you're talking about it, is kind of foreign to them.

Yup.

But the concept of 'team' is useful in explaining the INFJ behaviours that INFPs classify as 'backtracking' or 'turning on me'. My offering was designed to illustrate what's going on inside of the INFJ. I hope it serves two purposes.

First, for INFJs to see if that dynamic rings a bell in them, to understand how this may be misinterpreted, and to figure out that it might be a great idea to be more clear about what's happening in them. Not that I have any idea how to say that in a way that helps INFPs or other types.

Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right? Maybe knowing this can help INFPs who feel attacked take a deep breath before fully committing to that interpretation and say 'Dude, you're suddenly being critical and argumentative. Is that because you now feel comfortable enough that we want the same thing to nitpick about disagreements?' And if that's not going to happen, maybe an INFP here might comment on how INFJs can best discuss their intermittent need to talk strategy so they least trigger the INFP to feel ambushed.

So this is a serious question, INFPs: considering that it might be hard to impossible for INFJs to not bring up disagreements if they arise after a certain period of harmony (and granting that INFJs should to their damnedest to try to match pace with INFPs in disagreeing early), how can we best introduce the need to spell out a disagreement without making you feel tricked?
 

yeghor

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I made some corrections in blue...

And the bolded parts are incorrect from my perspective...

Here's some Ti Fe-dom and Ne from me, yeghor. And I've been thinking that maybe it would be more productive for INFJs to use their Ti primarily to analyze and label the group dynamic, rather than applying that to individuals. Perhaps Fe would work better when applied to the individual. Look at the group impersonally and the individuals within that group personally? Just a thought. Nothing to back it up at the moment.

You want to know why all of these people suddenly joined the thread? First, if you notice at the bottom of the thread, it will say who's viewing the thread at any given moment, so, yes, a lot of people have been reading and not participating. This has been a popular thread. Second, you need to take a step back and look at what's been happening recently through a longer lens. You're too up-close and personal right now. Look at the general group dynamic information that's available (after you read some of the descriptions in the link, do you see them happening in this thread?)

I'll tell you what I see. I see how Fe-dom controls the group dynamic because that's what Fe-dom is about--group dynamics. From what I understand, Fi, on the other hand, is NOT about the group at all. If you notice, most of the Fi people who have posted in the thread tend to not take sides. Their posts are either trying hard to stay as neutral as possible, or have reluctantly decided to speak to one side or the other, knowing that there are consequences for speaking up that might not align with their personal values. And a few, like PeaceBaby, have taken a firmer stance on what they see. When Fi speaks out, it's about the individual values and has little to do with the group. They aren't wired for group dynamics, but they've had to deal with them all of their lives the best they could. So, you can't see Fi as taking sides, (No, Fi can also converge on common values) the way Fe naturally does. The ones who have spoken out have most likely been pushed by extreme circumstances, combined with their personal values, to speak out and pick a side. (You are portraying Fi-dom as oppressed people...who deserve some kind of privileged treatment...positive discrimination...why?...Becase the society they live in is Fe-dominant? You've been sounding "apologetic" to me all along...It feels like white man apologizing to black people even after several generations...I am sure there's a concept for this but I do not know the exact word...)

Fe-dom on the other hand, is all about sides. We categorize. Things are this or that. Black or white. Very few grays. We Fe-dom poll and come to conclusions based on majority or what appears to be majority and try to work towards a smooth running system. What I see happening in the broader scope with Fe posts is that the comfortable norm was challenged. In order to get back to the more harmonious norm, there was some soft pushback. When that didn't work, there was some harder pushback. Once the pushback went beyond a certain point of social acceptance into subtle and outright personal attack, bystanders were pushed into commenting and taking sides, so that a comfortable, smooth running system might be reached again. (No it wasn't about Fe (converging), it was about Ni (converging)) If you notice, most of the posts that directly take a side are Fe. Those who were uncomfortable with the conflict, but didn't want to participate in it, made fluff or indirect posts to try to diffuse some of the emotion. And a few Fe posters have also tried to bring back a more diplomatic tone in order to move the conversation forward.

Unfortunately, I think change comes with the price of being uncomfortable. Everyone seems to agree that the norm (INFP/INFJ communication) isn'tworking in some way. It's at an impasse. Slow, steady, diplomatic change is possible, but like rain wearing down a mountain, it might take so much time that it might not be practical. So, perhaps an earthquake is needed in order to bring some of the hidden strata to light and foster change. Not a very pleasant idea, an earthquake. Most people, whether Fe or Fi, won't want to start one because the consequences can be devastating. So, people tend to not speak up against the status quo (which favors the INFJs? the elite?), even if they don't agree with it. Hopefully, a lesser degree of shaking up will suffice to move what wants to stay in place. But until enough people are uncomfortable enough with the norm to act (are you thru Fe-dom (i.e. group dynamic) provoking/rallying people to rebel against or bully INFJs?), the norm is what we'll be stuck with. Because Fe-dom wants a smooth running system, whether that system is optimal or not. And Fi might not like the system they're stuck in, but they eta: don't tend towards organizing into groups, and they have so little power against the group as individuals, that they end up bending or breaking.

Are people doing all of this consciously? No. I don't think so. I think, for the most part, people are reacting out of their unconscious and subconscious and then providing some sort of rationalization in order to explain.
 
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Eilonwy

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Yup.

But the concept of 'team' is useful in explaining the INFJ behaviours that INFPs classify as 'backtracking' or 'turning on me'. My offering was designed to illustrate what's going on inside of the INFJ. I hope it serves two purposes.

First, for INFJs to see if that dynamic rings a bell in them, to understand how this may be misinterpreted, and to figure out that it might be a great idea to be more clear about what's happening in them. Not that I have any idea how to say that in a way that helps INFPs or other types.

Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right? Maybe knowing this can help INFPs who feel attacked take a deep breath before fully committing to that interpretation and say 'Dude, you're suddenly being critical and argumentative. Is that because you now feel comfortable enough that we want the same thing to nitpick about disagreements?' And if that's not going to happen, maybe an INFP here might comment on how INFJs can best discuss their intermittent need to talk strategy so they least trigger the INFP to feel ambushed.

:) Got it now. I took the part I quoted out of context. Sorry about that.
 

yeghor

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Here's the difference between Fe-dom and Fe-aux IMO:

Originally Posted by badger055

Don't let the stereotypes influence you. Hitler was INFJ...

I sometimes can see how I have the potential to turn into an authoritarian person and dictate/impose my own version of ideal society on people but I (and other INFJs I believe) do not have that much presence as well as desire/drive to be at the centre of attention and at the driver's seat for as long as Hitler did...INFJs are much more passive/subtle in their influence...I do not want to control/manipulate people to adapt my ideals, I want them to adapt my ideals because "they" themselves desire to to do so on their own...because the former is insustainable in my absence and the latter is independent of me...will sustain itself even when I am long gone...

I believe Hitler may infact be an unhealthy/troubled ENFJ...who thought he was doing what's best for his (ideal of) German people...not that I condone his actions...
 

uumlau

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Just a thought ...

We might want to differentiate the Enneagram motivations from the cognitive functions' perceptions of things.

If you want to know WHY someone is reacting in a particular way (good or bad), Enneagram helps to explain where that person is coming from and what they're specifically reacting to. Cognitive functions really only determine how well they can explain it to others. Ni tends to be a pain in the butt to explain, so few INFJs will spend the time to explain their reactions, especially when the reaction is to avoid the person in question, hence "doorslam".
 

Ghost

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[MENTION=18763]If I have a complaint, I'll undersell the problem and focus on the solution (so we can jump right into the resolution and I don't have to ask people to consider my emotions, which was usually the sticking point), and if other people have complaints, I'll ask them what they want and stop trying random things that usually turn out not to be what they want anyway. Tadaa!"

Thanks for this. I realized my post might come across as skeptical of fidelia's point. I thought that, since she brought it up, it must happen some or even most of the time. I just wanted to check other folks because I don't have enough sources. I wasn't sure if I could extrapolate from it since I didn't know if it was particular to fidelia or if it was broader. Hearing one of the reasons for preferring this mode of conversation is great because now it's easier to understand.

Lots to think about here. I nearly have a response for you [MENTION=18763]Ghost[/MENTION], but still need to work a couple of questions out in my own head.

Hey, it's fine. I've seen the time and effort you put into this thread. After I made my post, I realized I was asking a lot. Take your time. I'm glad to get responses at all. :)

So this is a serious question, INFPs: considering that it might be hard to impossible for INFJs to not bring up disagreements if they arise after a certain period of harmony (and granting that INFJs should to their damnedest to try to match pace with INFPs in disagreeing early), how can we best introduce the need to spell out a disagreement without making you feel tricked?

Hm. If I was told something along the lines of "Now that we know each other better, I trust you and feel safe to discuss X with you," I'd feel like it was...dishonorable not to listen and take seriously. I guess something that tells me the relationship is fine and that the disagreement, in your eyes, doesn't put distance between us.

If that doesn't feel natural, maybe ensuring that you're only speaking from your point of view and then telling me why it matters to you. Being told "these are the facts" and not being told why you want this solution puts me off.
 

Eilonwy

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I made some corrections in blue...

And the bolded parts are incorrect from my perspective...

Not in the mood to have to copy and paste, since my quote doesn't re-quote.

You misunderstand my motives. I am not trying to rally or provoke. I'm simply trying to show that, from my altered pov, the INFJ pov can come across very differently than it supposes it does. The Fe-aux interpretation of things isn't the only interpretation there is. You're reading too much into that post. Step back from it and look at it in a more general, impersonal way.
 
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Ginkgo

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I think [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION], you may be on to something with the silence of non-communication thing. Definitely there is text buried in what is not said, or the non-interaction that happens, as well as what does happen. (Maybe a Fe thing?).

Having said that, I also know that the more complicated or detailed or important a thought I want to get across, the more perfectionistic I get about it, and then discouraged about doing it justice and then a bunch of time elapses, but to the other party, it may look like I'm intentionally avoiding the subject when it's just that it's so important, that I don't want to trivialize it (but then do by not responding). I also sometimes like a person well enough or am out of emotional juice enough that I take a long time to respond to someone via writing, even though I very much want to remain in touch with them. So I can imagine that interpreting the non-communication could get tricky.

There's definitely that. I think, for the party that's interpreting the non-communication, the most productive option, regardless of the outcome, is to use some emotional intelligence and recognize that it would be ideal not to impose expectations on the other party (even expectations that the other party ought to be able to digest what you're talking about). If expectations for a response aren't met, it would lead to disappointment, and, at best, more misunderstandings. Maybe this method sounds extraordinarily zen, but it's likely just as perfectionistic as your desire to articulate a response. ~5 years ago, I became a member here, coming with the intent to bridge gaps in understanding between people of various types. Since then, I've realized that context holds far more weight than syntax, regardless of your type. Lapses become self-evident through the cognitive dissonance suffered due to misunderstanding. If communication lapses occur, then it's probably best to just chill and recognize that the act of serving as a mediator or a translator can easily be prompted by a blinding, deafening sort of selfishness.
 

Werebudgie

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I recognize the mechanics you've illustrated here in many of my past-present interactions with INFJs - even that residual "sticky" feeling that exists because, while your logic might be mutual, communication as a whole (consisting of subconscious implications, gut feelings, and psychological muscle-memory) fails.

That makes sense re: why it's sticky. And in that (or expanding on that) ... in my case, feeling that way about someone I love so deeply adds an additional layer for me. Best I can describe it initially is: a clash between love/deep connection and this experience of "opposed positioning" - which is different from simple disagreement. For me, it's like being in some sort of weird reality where the physics of connection don't quite make sense to me. That can disorient me to some extent and makes it harder for me to get out of the sticky as quickly as I would like to.

My point is that even in that space between you and your INFP, I believe you can lend each other tools of understanding to further your shared goals. Do you ever feel like that's happened?

I really don't know. Our experience so far has been that understanding differences in our cognitive processes has helped us understand, and increasingly to resolve, tensions in our relationship that seemed to come out of nowhere for no reason when we didn't know it was about differences in cognitive processes. We've discussed the possibility that these differences may be used as strengths, but so far that hasn't revealed itself as a pattern that I'm aware of.

Of course, we do have areas of our lives in which we work extremely extremely well together. The most obvious is creative work. We work really well together on shared creative projects. We have different and complementary skills, a great mutual process in which disagreement can happen and is just fine, we flow together and naturally each bring our strengths, and what we create is better for all of it. But interestingly enough when it comes to the business aspect (what to do in the world with the products of our creative flow), we don't work well together at all and that weird tension comes up again.

A tangential thought from our conversation, but one directly pertaining to the general topic - there is something to be learned in the silence of non-communication, through introspection. I believe INFJs excel in this regard, and I think it's possible they may, at times, expect others to do the same in the case that they've severed their ties. Does that ring true to you?

Not for me. In my case, when I step away from a person or group, I have zero expectations of them. I mean zero. I don't do it to affect their behavior or learning or anything like that.

I note the same kinds of conflicts between INTPs and INTJs. We agree, but we disagree as to what the "best proof" is. I can only imagine how this translates to the INFJ/INFP conflict: you agree, but, um, well, there's something seriously wrong about the other person's perspective ... and in Feeling-land, that can turn into a suspicion that the other person's values are somehow corrupt. (Just as I read INTPs continually insinuating that INTJ reasoning is corrupt, and vice versa.)

Interesting. Never thought about it exactly this way. One additional wrinkle, IMO, is that F is the dom process for one (INFP - Fi) and the aux process for the other (INFJ - Fe). Same with INTP/INTJ and Ti/Te. I mention this because I continue to suspect that the differences in dominant processes is important as well - meaning introverted perceiving versus introverted judging.

The only thing I can think of to ameliorate that is to realize that such suspicions are egotistical, that somehow you yourself know the "right way" to consider things, and that there are no other valid paths.

For me in particular, the biggest challenge is not defaulting inside myself to her way as the "right way" and becoming opposed to myself in the process. That's how Fe-aux works in me, it creates a struggle between her Fi and my organic perception - basically setting up a situation in which I am at odds with myself. In other words, while my organic perception (Ni or Ni-Se) feels like home to me as a way to perceive and move, Fe-aux orients me to her Fi as if it is by initial default legitimate.

So my struggle is the internal clash it raises in me. I internalize her Fi view even though it doesn't make sense to me, and I double stream it and my Ni/Ni-Se perception inside myself, part of me seeing myself as "other" and "wrong by default" in that initial process. Which then later on raises a need for to Ti-tert to come in with guns blazing to try to correct for the damage that initial move causes in me.)

I suspect that Te-aux doesn't work that way. But does any of that seem familiar to you at all?

It's just different "operating systems", if you will. Both Linux and Windows can be used to accomplish exactly the same tasks, but a Linux user is always going to feel uncomfortable with Windows, and vice versa. And I don't choose the "operating systems" analogy lightly: these are distinct cognitive differences between people.

I love this metaphor! Thank you.

I'm trying to figure out how it would apply to my experience described just above with Fe-aux and double streaming. Maybe it's like because of Fe-aux, I keep trying to run programs made for from her system on my own operating system?

(tangent that is possibly but maybe not moving outside of the metaphor: in the actual world of tech, I want want WANT to try Linux. Have been wanting this for years, but haven't have the time. I only learned Windows because it's so prevalent and it was just there a lot more than Linux)

Once you note that the other way of thinking is valid, THEN you can develop an attitude of learning from it. INTPs always see things that I don't, and I see things they don't, and in a team, we're nigh unstoppable as long as we leverage each other's understanding. You just need to stay away from the tendency to insinuate that there is something wro-o-o-ong (oh so very wrong!) with the other person's reasoning/values. It's just unfamiliar, not wrong.

It's actually been quite a revelation to us both that this "weird stuff" about me - manifestation of my cognitive processes - is not specific only to me. I think at some unfortunately significant levels, we both tended to assume that her ways of processing things are more valid/legitimate/representative of humanity as a whole than mine, when our different processes clashed (a situation due to the dynamic I described above with Fe-aux in me).

And it's not something you can gain much familiarity, because you'd have to stop thinking your normal paths in order to think in the other person's paths.

Yes! And in our case I think we are finally finally getting this! We simply can't think in each other's paths - and that is completely okay. We don't have to do that in order to be together and love each other and move well together in life.

This is an excellent point (well, a couple excellent points crammed together).

This thread very much has the feel of explaining to INFJs how they should want to be different in a heavy-handed way.

I see this as well.

IMO Fe-aux can cause real problems in situations like this. I suspect it's because at some level we (INFJs) can feel obligated to consider it quite deeply (that we should want to be different) ... even when we're also setting and articulating boundaries. In fact, in this context, INFJs setting and articulating boundaries is itself positioned as wrong and controlling behavior.

This thread is like having that clerk follow you out of the store, follow you everywhere you go for the rest of the day and maybe even have them continue talking at you while you’re trying to fall asleep.

*nods* and given what I wrote above, I would add the clerk's talking at you includes admonishment that you walking away is due to something wrong with you that needs to change.

I also want to say this: This dynamic generally does NOT happen in my interactions with my INFP partner. In fact, she tends to want to drop things well before I do (Fe-aux + Ti-tert, in my case, most likely, though that's just a guess).

Therefore, second, for INFPs to learn that this dynamic is a thing in INFJs. They don't have to like it or enjoy it or adopt it, but it's a thing and more information about reality is always good, right?

In my case, this applies to various aspects of my cognitive processes and their manifestation in interaction with my partner.

For me, getting centered and clear enough to stand firm in: "This is how I am, its difference from you doesn't mean there's something wrong with how I am, it's just difference, and we're going to need to learn to work with it" is really crucial since I've been so pulled by Fe-aux to initially try to adapt to her perspective and ways.

I'm very fortunate that since we found this conceptual language (INFP/INFJ and cognitive processes), it has come increasingly clear to us both my processing "weirdness" isn't specific to me alone, but is actually related to this cognitive stack that exists in other human beings as well. With that step, my INFP tends to be quite supportive when I can get centered enough to stand my ground and say "This is how I am" while reminding myself internally that "how I am" is not a deviation from how I should be given her cognitive processes as an invisible norm.

I've found that my INFP partner seems to naturally recognize difference as difference rather than "this is superior/this is inferior" due to her commitment to each individual being as well and centered as possible. We just needed a way to get at that, and for us the MBTI/cognitive process concepts have been the gift that keeps on giving.

And I really feel that some amount of our tension has been caused by me being in a confused and disoriented space due to my own internal struggles with Fe-aux. I've found that the clearer I am, the more I can stand up for myself and not allow Fe-aux to create that nasty internal struggle in me, the better able we are to move well together (that's just my side of it, my necessary work in the process. She has her work/centering process too. But I'm focusing on what I am able to do to contribute to us being able to move well together).

In our case, it's like some of what she reacts negatively to is when I am internally confused and disoriented, like that bothers her at some deep level. Which is truly awesome, actually. In my view, some of the dynamics in this this thread seems to be almost the opposite of that in some ways - with some participants not liking it when INFJs move toward centeredness, with INFJ centeredness marked as wrong and in need of change, and related underlying a push for us to remain in and even deepen a state in which we would be disoriented and somewhat disconnected from our actual perception.

And I want to repeat in hopes that this does not get lost in this long comment: Given my experience, That push is not inevitable due simply to INFP/INFJ dynamics. My INFP seems naturally and organically inclined to LIKE IT when I am centered and clear and standing truly well in my own cognitive processes. She can't share that space with me, and we can get into trouble if we try that. But she seems naturally inclined to like it when I interact from a centered and clear space.

The difference between that real life experience with my INFP and the dynamics in this thread on this point are quite striking to me. And not in a good way.

From my vantage point, this thread's push on INFJs to see our normal cognitive process as suspect, wrong, something we "need to" change in order to interact well with INFPs is not only inaccurate to my own experience, but can actually be pretty harmful to INFJs and also to INFJ/INFP connections that based on authentic mutual desire for our own and each others' wellness.

eta: bolded this part due to a suggestion I got in a PM to do so: On a conceptual level and from the INFJ side of things: if my experience is in any way relevant to other INFJs, one key to this may begin in sustained attention to how Fe actually operates as an AUX function in INFJs, rather than taking Fe-dom type descriptions/understanding and simply looking at it as Fi versus Fe. Fe is not our dominant and that is actually really really crucial information.
 
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