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I wonder if the whole "INFJ doorslam" issue only exists because people appreciate the presence of particular people in their lives so much that jars them when that person exercises their common right to privacy and silence. Is contempt for INFJs a consequence of idealizing them?
In general, I think you would probably wind up regretting a decision that was made purely on the basis of information you've gotten from this thread, unless it only concerned the members who've posted.
Oh, I know. I wouldn't do anything based solely on one thread, but did hope to find what could be called "expert" thoughts and opinions and mostly EXAMPLES of the thought processes in order to add and perhaps incorporate helpful things into my own life.
The discrepancies here would probably resolve or change if we all met and discussed matters, but even in that environment, we would eventually run into issues with stubbornness. Egos are invested in typology unless you've abstracted it to death, but at that point, people lose interest because it no longer really relate to "self-discovery", so much as it would relate to a seemingly inconsequential playground of theory.
Ha! When you got to the bolded, I thought, "oh, now THAT I could get in to." I see your point though, and it's a good one. Plus, there's no guarantee that anyone is speaking the absolute truth either in real life or text.
Concerning Ne vs Ni and the potential lack of understanding between INFPs and INFJs - an example to illustrate my point about how Ne requires more externally based information than Ni: I know an Ni dom who regularly plays guessing games with me, and during our playful conversations in which we inquire each other about our respective personal lives, a sharp difference between our psychological makeup becomes apparent.
I ask him questions, relay information, and probe indirectly by taking guesses. I try to use deduction to whittle away possibilities, but then more possibilities could be inferred from the remaining possibilities. While I often attempt to deduce, my deductions frequently seem to lead further and further away from the truth - especially if he slowly piecemeals information without being straightforward. You could say, from a cynical but not inaccurate POV, that I dig my own grave - in part because I want information from an objectively verifiable source, but also in part because I refuse to just settle on a conclusion. More often than not, I actually stumble on the truth, but keep walking because I'm seeking a personal connection more than information. I think this is directly related to Ne, seeing as Ne probes for information by informing in turn, and always requires a bit of empirical evidence before judgments find closure.
On the other hand, my friend contemplates without attempting to catalyze responses from me. He mulls what he has around and infers what he wants. Often, his conclusions, while accurate, are vague and would better be taken with a grain of salt; however, seeing as I, as an Ne user, expect there to be some sort of verifiable remnant of information, I can fall victim to the Forer effect, taking things more personally than need be. If he and I were not on good terms, I could easily misinterpret his statements as indirect insults, and assume that he gaslights me during these games. But we appreciate our differences and recognize, through mutual respect, that we're equally responsible for what comes of our interactions.
This is such a good observation. So much of this thread is based on information gathering, so how it's obtained, how much, and what's done with it is naturally going to have to be taken into account.
From the outside looking in though, it's hard not to think that it's possible to care too much. Something my T has been saying to me forever. I mean if 'experts' have a hard time, then having a hard time sometimes may just be inevitable no matter how much you do or don't care.
[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]- no, I'm referring to the INFJs who frequent these threads, particularly the several that have addressed her directly. While you may feel I have blindspots that I'm not aware of (and I'd be the first to say I do), I'd also like you to look at my past history here before leaping to conclusions. My attitudes and behaviour towards others has been fairly consistent. I have not had a history of intentionally bullying others, nor of speaking for the entire forum. I find it odd that you feel it would be constructive to imply that.
At this point, it appears that this tangent is not going anywhere positive and I have no wish to make anyone feel upset or disillusioned, so I think I'll just observe for a bit.
[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], I do know your past history, but the way you stated it implied that a large amount of people have issues with PB, when in reality it's probably only...I can think of 4 or 5 offhand. I'm sure each of us on this forum could find the same amount of people who have issues with us, so saying it the way you did was bordering on slander, imo. So, I also find it odd that you felt it would be constructive to imply that many people had issues with PB.
Oh, I know. I wouldn't do anything based solely on one thread, but did hope to find what could be called "expert" thoughts and opinions and mostly EXAMPLES of the thought processes in order to add and perhaps incorporate helpful things into my own life.
Ha! When you got to the bolded, I thought, "oh, now THAT I could get in to." I see your point though, and it's a good one. Plus, there's no guarantee that anyone is speaking the absolute truth either in real life or text.
This is such a good observation. So much of this thread is based on information gathering, so how it's obtained, how much, and what's done with it is naturally going to have to be taken into account.
From the outside looking in though, it's hard not to think that it's possible to care too much. Something my T has been saying to me forever. I mean if 'experts' have a hard time, then having a hard time sometimes may just be inevitable no matter how much you do or don't care.
Part of the issue (I think) is that we communicate differently. So what sounds fairly even and neutral to an INFJ, doesn't really to INFP ears and vice-versa. If you asked a lot of INFJs, I really do think they'd feel they were just relaying what makes them feel uncomfortable and why they think that is in relatively neutral terms. However, I'm seeing that it doesn't sound that way on the receiving end, but I can't really see the impact of what is happening, other than that it is making people feel badly, so I'm not sure how to communicate authentically and still be sensitive to what will be felt as unkind.
I'm not sure if this makes it worse, but in my view, the issue that there seems to be with PeaceBaby (and at first I thought it was just our collective past baggage, but it seems to be happening with newer members as well) is that her words feel prescriptive, when she has not been invited to prescribe. (And yes, I know that to Fi, this seems dreadfully unfair to be more or less receptive to information due to the way it is dispensed or our impressions of how much we are on the same page with the person giving it, but it seems to be at least on first instinct how INFJs are wired to respond to the world around them). Describing the impact of how we communicate on her and then leaving it for us to mull over probably would be more successful.
I've noticed the frustration that you are talking about Southern Kross, regarding breakthroughs and what feels like backtracking. It might be important to keep in mind that one way of looking for weak spots in what we are saying is to state it in more definite terms, but then have someone point out the shared views, and then discuss the parts that don't seem to fit. It might be that collective judging thing that was discussed before. I think it is a way of coming to common consensus.
Secondly, I think it also maybe needs to be factored in that it takes some time for us to assimilate new information and build it into our framework. While there may be some verbal assent, the implications and a deeper understanding of how it fits with everything else need some time to settle. In the same way that it will take a long time for me to figure out what factually backs up the initial feelings or reactions that I have to something, or why something doesn't sit right, it also takes some time to try on new information on many different models for consistency and for universality before understanding or trusting it enough to find a home for it in the skeleton of my core understandings. I often look like I'm not open initially to new people or new information, when in fact it takes me time to warm up to it and figure it out. Similarly, it takes time for me to cool off (in the sense of not believing it anymore or becoming more distanced from it) when I get new information that invalidates something that I believed to be true before or information that is really foreign to my thought process.
Southern Kross, I can see you have made huge efforts to speak my language, so that your words can be heard with an open mind. I also appreciate knowing what sentiments of yours align with PeaceBaby's. I also would be the first to acknowledge that I am abysmally poor at speaking INFP. I don't have enough real life experience to know how to do it authentically, and I fear that it will end up sounding insulting or way off the mark, rather than easing things.
In an attempt to be accurate, I don't think that hurt is necessarily the main reaction that INFJs are likely to feel. For various reasons, I think it is more likely to be annoyance - either at inaccuracies or at being directed. Over several threads, I'm seeing that this is another difference in reaction between us. I don't know if it's INFP specific, or Fi, but strong emotions like hurt, outrage, etc seem to come to the forefront, while I think INFJs are more likely to use words like frustration, disagreement, annoyance. I suppose there are whole discussions that could be devoted to the ins and outs of all that, but in interests of heading down a likely path, I wondered if it was useful to point out this difference, as it may lead to very different conclusions about reactions, motivations, etc.
I don't want to contribute to making anyone feel badly. I don't want my non-engagement of PB to be misread as trying to leave her out in the cold or being cliquish. It's more that I have found in the past that something about the way we both are communicating is not working for the other person. I don't know how to change it while still remaining authentic to myself. I don't think it is fair to say that she is the one that must make all the adjustments for me. However, I don't think we are starting from common enough perspective to successfully discuss some of this stuff without my inadvertently hurting her, and I don't want to do that, so I have tried not to make it worse by saying too much to her directly. I don't feel that we can't get ever along, but rather that there's some kind of disconnect that until I can identify it and figure out how to work around it, will keep working as a barrier. So instead I am trying to talk to people I feel I have more common ground with to start from to see where their views converge with hers and if there is a way I can connect with them successfully, to better understand her point of view. It takes time, and every time that process is interrupted, it takes more time still!
Whatever you can mirror back from your perspective is useful to me to go into the mix of how I evaluate what is working and what is not working in the way I am relating.
My partner said this about me during our first year together, and it took me a while to figure out that that in our case at least, this is most likely her experience of me doing that process of:
1. Me second guessing Ni-Se info and perception, plus Fe-aux internalizing and legitimizing of the external materials to start with,
2. The interaction and and well internalized material starts viscerally feeling off at that gut/Ni-Se level in a way I can't ignore
3. And so Ti comes in and starts the process of figuring out the specifics and comes to a conclusion opposite to the initial Fe internalization and acceptance (which nearly 100% of the time is what the Ni-Se information was trying to say in the first place).
Seems to me that what it's like on the outside is "wait, you seemed to agree with me before and take in what I was saying, but now you've done a 180!" as if that initial deep taking-in could not have happened. But it does and 180 is actually because it was taken in so deeply.
For me, the best way to avoid that process is for me to continue getting centered in Ni-Se and keep learning to trust that initial gut-level information in the first place. More and more, I realize that at this stage of my life, I want my deepest personal relationships to be with people who can actually support me in in a practice getting and staying centered in Ni-Se perception - people who recognize, respond positively to, and truly desire the deep wellness in me that comes with such centered-ness.
And one thing I keep forgetting to mention in all of this is: For me, one crucial thing about Ni-Se information is that it is pre-conscious. To truly make use of the Ni-Se info as a resource for real, I usually will need to act on that info before I know the details and know why at a conscious level. Action before conscious meaning and analysis. I need to learn to flow inside that Ni-Se language itself rather than waiting for a translation to my conscious mind, trusting that even though I may not know why I have a visceral gut feeling to turn this way or that, to respond to a person in one way or another, the information is real and solid and valuable. When I've done this, I've had some amazingly great - stunningly great in fact - results. But it is a huge leap of trust in my own perception. All too often, I fall back into the rut of that second-guessing of my own perception plus, Fe influx, followed by Ti correction leading eventually to recentering in Ni organic landscape.
And as I write, I wonder if in doing that over and over, I've conditioned myself even further into distrust of my own perception, because I rely so heavily on that extremely rigorous data-grounded, detailed Ti analysis before I feel really okay in acting based on Ni or Ni-Se perception. It's like another layer of assimilation - I don't trust myself enough to act in the actual information because this process in me says information isn't solid until I can grasp it in this rigorous conscious way. And this keeps happening no matter how much data I have that emerges later showing that the initial Ni or Ni-Se perception was really into something real and crucial to begin with.
But again, when I have been able to relax and trust Ni-Se perception, I realize that my organic mode is a deep willingness to act from the space underneath consciousness. I have seen that when I am truly well and centered, I'm completely comfortable with perception, followed by movement (based on Ni-Se data), with conscious/analytical understanding later. I'm actually almost always joyfully blown away by the deep wisdom of the information that comes through Ni-Se when I take it for what it is and let conscious/analytical understanding come later. And I have seen how me trying to understand it analytically and/or reach some shared understanding with others pretty much always skews the information and makes movement that's truly well for me so much more difficult than it ever needs to be.
Thanks to you both for your patient and sympathetic explanations of this. I appreciate it and it helps me to understand it a little better. So it's Fe spit-balling and I'm reading it like conclusions, right? I guess the thing is, it bothers me more in some posters than others (and the rest of you only at certain times). I think some of you must be better at communicating the fact that this is still Judgement-in-progress than others, and without that, it makes it harder for me to pick it up.
Also that Fe to Ti progression in reasoning can occasionally seem a bit like this from the outside:
Fe: "That sounds reasonable. I understand why you feel like that. Let's be friends!" Ti: "Wait, what are you doing?! I'm not agreeing to that! I'm ready for a fight! Give no quarter!"
This is so bewildering to me. It's like we get on the same wave length and I think we're getting along fine, and then shortly after it's almost like you guys want to restart the argument. Does that make sense in Fe terms? I'm OK with you wanting to spend more time figuring things out, but I just struggle with comprehending how we can get so far down a certain path and then suddenly we're back at square one. On the receiving end, it can feel a bit like personal rejection followed by a sudden return to an adversarial position. I do want to be able to help you guys to process things in the way you feel most comfortable with, but I need to know where we are and if we're still OK.
But honestly, I don't know how much of this is my fault (as a Fi-Te user) for not picking this stuff up and being offended, and how much is down to poor communication from you guys.
Yes at the conscious assimilated level of me, my default is distrust of my Ni perception. It's like someone who assimilates from a culture in which certain things are accepted as real into a culture in which those things are considered not there/imaginary. I still perceive in the Ni landscape, but am immersed in an environment in which everyone acts as if that layer isn't happening. Given Fe-aux plus that cultural environment, I question my perception. Internally, though, I still perceive what I do. But the part of me that has learned to survive in this other (alien to my organic perception) context distrusts that perception by default. There's more about this scattered around in in the previous comment I posted.
But also I do want to mention: I don't experience Ni as about ideas. I experience it as an actual landscape inside which I perceive and move. For me it's like there are layers of reality or something like that. I can shift myself, my perceving self, from one landscape to another and I can be pulled from one to another. One is "home" to me.
So the default distrust is: "Is what I am perceiving real?" And no matter how many times I question my perception only to learn later that yes, it was real (because as things unfold over time, what I was picking up reveals itself in more externally see-able ways - and I even have documentation of some of this from my own writing, emails etc), no matter that I know cognitively that this keeps happening, my first learned instinct is to question my perception
And it doesn't help that the language of this perception doesn't easily translate to the conscious partly-assimilated mind/consciousness. Metaphor, images, visceral/body sense ... the specifics of the information aren't always clear to my consciousness.
That said, when I do trust it, the information gets clearer to me, mainly because I don't require it to translate, I just experience it in the native language and move from there.
This is like la-la land, crazy-weird to me, but it is fascinating. The metaphor of layered landscape helps but it's something so totally different to me that I don't think it entirely translates.
One thing it is making me think of are the different, interconnected levels of reality in The Matrix and Inception - as well as the strange seepage between the worlds and the deceptiveness of the immediate reality. Do you think these relate well to the concept of Ni or are they different? If so, how does that work?
But really, my own primary point of connectedness into the larger web is via my Ni landscape. That hasn't changed. So .... Se as part of Ni-Se: it's like coming into contact with a long lost but obviously related relative from another branch of the same family - someone who's both wonderfully similar at the core, but different in the specifics. Love and recognition and "this is one of my relations" ... but not at that most intimate level of interconnectedness that I experience in my Ni landscape.
A INFJ musician I like (well, I'm pretty sure he's a xNFJ, anyway) said that when he writes songs, it feels like remembering a tune he hasn't heard yet. I really like that idea and I think is really revealing. It helps me to make sense of Ni through a Si approximation. Do you relate to this?
I appreciate the explanation!
I talked with my INFP partner about this INFP integration of Te. She said that integrating Te as a standard part of her process doesn't appeal to her because it loses quickness of response, and for other reasons I probably can't adequately describe in translation. I didn't get a bad visceral sense when we discussed it.
Yes, she's right. It does slow things down and it feels a bit ungainly to start with. But over time you develop a little short-hand list of Te axioms in you head, which you can access more quickly.
How old is your partner? Perhaps she hasn't got her head around this fully yet.
And about Ne - it's my favorite function in my partner. I do have some difficulty with it (the Ne "throwing out possibilities" versus Ni "explore in depth" thing). But in terms of visceral/gut level feel - my partner's Ne is, for me, mostly associated with a bouncy sunny part of her that for the most part I instinctively adore. I have more difficulty with Fi than with Ne in her. Her Fi seems more self-protective in some ways, while her Ne has a more expansive and joyful at the visceral feel level of my perception.
Fi: Hmm, I could really go for some ice cream right now, but what kind... Ne: Yay! Me too! Here, I just bought ten different flavours because I wasn't sure which one you wanted. Let's eat!
I appreciate the metaphor a lot as description! I'm thinking about this, but don't yet know if I have anything to say or ask on it.
Well let me ask some questions. Does the Ni side fit with your experience of it? If so, are you very conscious of doing this or does it just happen? Do you feel the 'revelation' as much as the other person? Does this analogy help for you to understand the NFP reaction to it and why they may be resistant? Does it help you to see Ni from the Si-user's perspective and why it seems so unintuitive to us? Does it give you ideas about how to get around these problems in future?
Pretty much, but "trust" in the broadest sense. It can be about a need for assurance (and re-assurance), confidence, faith, reliability, and/or intimacy.
Is the person in the metaphorical plane dialogue basically forcing the issue? It seems very forceful to me - not only telling you, but unilaterally doing stuff that you object to based on something you don't see. Would that be an example of forcing, in your view?
Yes, they are forcing it. I would say it is an example of an ideal outcome rather than the normal way of things. Earlier I mentioned how comforting it can be to rest on the Ni perception and let them take over. It's also scary as hell, if not insulting, to have that perception put upon you if you don't feel that "trust" has been earned.
With the plane scenario, I was partly trying to convey the confidence and certainty of the INxJ appears to the other person, and how that doesn't seem to have any apparent foundation. Of course there is foundation, but it's just not perceptible to them. So the Ni user has to establish or provide some foundation to help the other person accept their perspective. If a "trust" hasn't been established beforehand (eg. through a close relationship), or if it is a complex situation that requires more sensitivity, this might involve gently guiding their perception of the factors (ie. of the storm and the configuration of the plane) bit by bit and allowing them the freedom to take it in and process it. You might look at the sky and see storm clouds, but the other person may not recognise storm clouds when they see them, and may need to have them pointed out and explained. However, you have to be very careful with taking over, because it basically implies that the other person is ignorant of the factors, and there can be arrogance in that assumption. Perhaps the other person recognises the factors and is dealing with them in their own preferred way, and you taking over is denying them the option to choose their own path.
I imagine this is the equivalent to what you were saying about INFPs being condescending about Judgements. We have to accept that there can be another option and that people are free to choose it.
It sounds to me like he was able to tap into your shared Te. Does that seem accurate?
I think he tapped into my Judging functions more generally. He presented factors and let me process them (ie. evaluate them) through Fi-Te. Going back to the cake batter analogy: you give me the ingredients but I want to mix them my own way. And maybe the batter will result in a cake or maybe it will make a loaf of bread. Some guidance is welcome (eg. reminding me when I've left out an ingredient, querying certain methods of combining things, or telling me when it's burning), but, in most cases, I don't respond well to being instructed on what to make and how to make it.
I'm not sure if we have the same thing in mind or not, but I'm going to throw a hypothesis out there and you can tell me what it looks like from your vantage point.
I'm wondering if Fe tends to look for agreeable, common ground to establish relationship and goodwill and then moves towards areas of difference as the relationship or discussion progresses, while Fi Te goes at it from the opposite: disagreement to common ground.
I find disagreement much less jarring and personal feeling once I have established some history with the other person and have more context to know where they are coming from. Disagreement from a stranger or an acquaintance feels more unsettling because there is no context to interpret it with. I actually am unlikely to express disagreement with someone unless there is a very compelling reason, or if I have enough history with the person that I think they'll know where I'm coming from and our relationship can take it. It's a compliment of sorts to trust someone with the weight of the potentially negative.
I'm wondering whether Fi Te sees disagreement moving towards agreement as a more workable model. Does that ring true for you, or no?
I have some ideas that I know would not go over well with some people on the forum. I am not ashamed of them, but neither do I feel it is useful to draw attention to our differences first, before they know where I am coming from and I have enough background information to know their views and better make sense of why we've arrived at very different conclusions.
Also that Fe to Ti progression in reasoning can occasionally seem a bit like this from the outside:
Fe: "That sounds reasonable. I understand why you feel like that. Let's be friends!" Ti: "Wait, what are you doing?! I'm not agreeing to that! I'm ready for a fight! Give no quarter!"
I can totally see that you would experience it that way. Totally.
This is so bewildering to me. It's like we get on the same wave lengtfh and I think we're getting along fine, and then shortly after it's almost like you guys want to restart the argument. Does that make sense in Fe terms? I'm OK with you wanting to spend more time figuring things out, but I just struggle with comprehending how we can get so far down a certain path and then suddenly we're back at square one. On the receiving end, it can feel a bit like personal rejection followed by a sudden return to an adversarial position. I do want to be able to help you guys to process things in the way you feel most comfortable with, but I need to know where we are and if we're still OK.
I can really see how it would be bewildering and be as you describe above.
But honestly, I don't know how much of this is my fault (as a Fi-Te user) for not picking this stuff up and being offended, and how much is down to poor communication from you guys.
I really feel that a major key for me is centering in and trusting my own Ni-Se perception as much as possible - rather than allowing Fe-aux to initially stream external material into me as automatically legitimate in the first place. As I mentioned in some other comment recently, in me Ni-Se lies underneath consciousness and in my case often calls for action before conscious comprehension, with conscious comprehension coming later. If I trusted my perception more deeply, my initial action/interaction could be in line that perception much more quickly, I wouldn't have to go through the arduous Fe-Ti process to get back to that perception. I suspect that in that state, I wouldn't give off that initial sense of agreement as I tried to figure it all out consciously/analytically.
So I think that me moving further and further into trusting my Ni-Se perception would benefit anyone who has to deal with the pattern you find so bewildering etc and also benefit me (of course. So for me, it's back to my perspective that at this point in my life, I really want and need my personal connections to be with people who can support me in trusting my Ni-Se perception.
The question I'm working on now is: precisely what would it mean for someone to "support me in trusting my Ni-Se perception"? What do I mean by that, what is that and isn't that, in real terms? I don't have clear answers yet but it's something I'm really attending to and asking myself these days, and I'm heading toward clarity on it.
This is like la-la land, crazy-weird to me, but it is fascinating. The metaphor of layered landscape helps but it's something so totally different to me that I don't think it entirely translates.
One thing it is making me think of are the different, interconnected levels of reality in The Matrix and Inception - as well as the strange seepage between the worlds and the deceptiveness of the immediate reality. Do you think these relate well to the concept of Ni or are they different? If so, how does that work?
I don't know Inception. I'm wary about the Matrix as a way to talk about it because I feel like there's so much other theory/philosophy/ideology packed into that story, so much cultural symbolism and stuff about superiority and "the one" and tons of other stuff, that I worry it would blur things up in some ways I wouldn't be able to articulate without a painstaking analysis process that I don't have energy for now (if ever). Frustrating, but this is how my mind works.
I wonder if at some levels, it's something that just won't translate. I wonder if my description of the landscape discussion I had with my INFP partner might be of any use - not so much to translate my reality, but to get at some differences between Fi and Ni in relation to landscapes:
I've often referred to Ni, my dominant function, as my "organic landscape" - it's the perceptual world that is most like home to me, that makes the most sense to me, in which I feel most comfortable moving.
A couple of months ago, my INFP partner and I had a sort of clarity moment about one difference between Ni as an organic landscape for me, and Fi as an organic landscape for her.
It started as I was trying to describe how Ni is a perceiving function. I was saying that the landscape of my Ni perception exists as real whether or not I am in it or even whether or not I exist. This landscape is not some personal reality I have created (as Ni is all too often misunderstood to be). It is, instead, an existing "place" that I perceive from my specific subjective vangate point in it. It exists. I do not create it. I just move and perceive within it.
I said: in this way, the landscape of my Ni perception is like the city we live in now. It existed before I moved here. It would exist if I moved away. It would exist if I never existed at all. I haven't created it. Instead, I move within it and perceive it from my specific positioning and location in it.
And my INFP partner's eyes lit up and she said (paraphrased): "Oh! I get it! I am my own organic landscape!" She talked about how she has traveled all over the world (which she literally has) and in her travels and in her life, she always carries her own inner "home" (organic landscape) with her wherever she goes, that's how Fi works as her organic landscape for her. Fi is like her personal ground - she said she's like an island that provides herself with her own ground to stand on.
As a Ni-dom, I am inside a landscape that I have not created but that I perceive ... I am one little bit moving within this huge landscape, perceiving from my specific vantage point.
In contrast, as a Fi-dom, my INFP partner IS her own organic landscape. It wouldn't exist without her because it is created by her. She is her own home.
I can be pulled out my organic landscape. In order for me to get centered again in that situation, I have to move myself back into that landscape, re-position myself - move myself from alien landscapes back into my organic Ni landscape. She would never need to do that because she is never NOT in her organic landscape. She is in her organic landscape by definition, all the time, because she IS her own organic landscape.
One result of this difference between Ni-dom and Fi-dom is that we have, without always understanding why, defaulted to moving together in her organic landscape. Because I can be pulled out of my own organic landscape and she can't be pulled out of hers (her organic landscape IS made up of her, while mine isn't made up of me).
So our mutual meeting place defaulted without explicit discussion or decision to her Fi world. It did so because that's where she is and is made of what she is, and she can't leave it, is is made of her self - while I can move my little self between different external landscapes, even though I am most well when I center my perception in the landscape of my Ni perception.
Another result is that it's hard for us to understand such different meta-realities of organic landscapes. From my perspective, I can't imagine standing on the ground of my own self. It's like an impossibility of physics, a mind puzzle, how could I be my own landscape? Where would I stand if the ground is my self? That's not ground, that's .... yeah, it boggles my mind. And I won't speak for her on this, but I know she has her own view of how weird my organic landscape is, how weird it is to have "home ground" be something I have to enter and move within rather than how it is for her as a Fi dom.
A INFJ musician I like (well, I'm pretty sure he's a xNFJ, anyway) said that when he writes songs, it feels like remembering a tune he hasn't heard yet. I really like that idea and I think is really revealing. It helps me to make sense of Ni through a Si approximation. Do you relate to this?
Well, the one word I would quibble with is remembering (so this may get in the way of the Si-based understanding). I write music also, and for me it's more like finding the tune and lyrics than remembering. However! That said ... removing any assumption of linear time (and linear time is not the primary mode of time in my Ni landscape), it could be the same thing. Remembering is the same as finding if time is a coordinate in the landscape. And I bet that really helped with the translation (not). Sorry!
Yes, she's right. It does slow things down and it feels a bit ungainly to start with. But over time you develop a little short-hand list of Te axioms in you head, which you can access more quickly.
How old is your partner? Perhaps she hasn't got her head around this fully yet.
How old are you? She's in her 40s, as am I. When she spoke about it, it felt to me like a carefully considered choice on her part rather than a lack of development. But who knows what will emerge for her or for me in our respective centering trajectories.
To me they go together like this:
Fi: Hmm, I could really go for some ice cream right now, but what kind... Ne: Yay! Me too! Here, I just bought ten different flavours because I wasn't sure which one you wanted. Let's eat!
Interesting. I still feel like I don't get it because I read that and all I can think is OMFG NE IS SO FREAKING ADORABLE! *hug hug hug* My response is clearly not helpful to analytical understanding.
Well let me ask some questions. Does the Ni side fit with your experience of it?
I'll assume for now it's the first one (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll address the second one next time around).
I found the InxJ/Ni character in that dialogue to be far far more forceful than I would feel comfortable with. That person seems to trust their Ni perception a LOT more than I do, and is practically (or actually) imposing it on another person. I don't like that.
I can relate to see the storm and being told that it isn't happening. But in my case, I've tended to let myself get over-ridden, and I've far more often gone down with the other person in the plane, or tried to come up with a solution within what they can actually see and acknowledge (which also has often ended in the plane going down).
Does this analogy help for you to understand the NFP reaction to it and why they may be resistant?
Someone trying to force their perspective into action affecting both of you, and not requiring your explicit consent and trust before taking over like that on something that you don't see? I think a lot of people would be resistant to that.
I used to hope that my INFP would simply trust that I had something real to contribute from this perception of mine that she can't see the way I do, and would be willing to use this as a resource in difficult situations. That kind of trust has been elusive, however, and I really don't feel comfortable forcing it as in your description. She really needs to see it for herself, come to her own conclusions. I don't see her letting go of that and I don't know that it would be a good thing if she did.
From what I can see at this point in time, things seem to work best between us when we each focus on developing and maintaining our respective (true) strengths, and when we each bring as much clarity and centeredness and wellness as possible into our shared endeavors. That's where we are best able to develop real trust in each other. Very different from that scenario you describe, IMO, and very different from me second-guessing myself the way I have in the other direction.
Does it help you to see Ni from the Si-user's perspective and why it seems so unintuitive to us? Does it give you ideas about how to get around these problems in future?
I guess I feel like I already knew some about the INFP side of that scenario from how my partner has responded when I simply bring up Ni information that she can't see and call for us to use that information in our decisions. She generally refuses and needs to get her own information/use her own perspective to choose her actions.
The only thing I know about getting around these problems is back to: I need to better trust my own Ni-Se perception and act from that space. If that ends up meaning that my partner just can't deal with me, or I can't deal with her, I will need to accept that. However, it seems to me that when I am clear and centered, she tends to respond with support and respect. Not always, but a lot of the time. It's when I'm in that second-guessing/don't understand struggle that things seem to automatically get bad between us. (though again, this is an evolving process and understanding for me, so this is just a snapshot of my perspective right now)
Pretty much, but "trust" in the broadest sense. It can be about a need for assurance (and re-assurance), confidence, faith, reliability, and/or intimacy.
Yes, they are forcing it. I would say it is an example of an ideal outcome rather than the normal way of things. Earlier I mentioned how comforting it can be to rest on the Ni perception and let them take over. It's also scary as hell, if not insulting, to have that perception put upon you if you don't feel that "trust" has been earned.
With the plane scenario, I was partly trying to convey the confidence and certainty of the INxJ appears to the other person, and how that doesn't seem to have any apparent foundation. Of course there is foundation, but it's just not perceptible to them. So the Ni user has to establish or provide some foundation to help the other person accept their perspective. If a "trust" hasn't been established beforehand (eg. through a close relationship), or if it is a complex situation that requires more sensitivity, this might involve gently guiding their perception of the factors (ie. of the storm and the configuration of the plane) bit by bit and allowing them the freedom to take it in and process it. You might look at the sky and see storm clouds, but the other person may not recognise storm clouds when they see them, and may need to have them pointed out and explained. However, you have to be very careful with taking over, because it basically implies that the other person is ignorant of the factors, and there can be arrogance in that assumption. Perhaps the other person recognises the factors and is dealing with them in their own preferred way, and you taking over is denying them the option to choose their own path.
Since I haven't had that kind of confidence/certainty (trust in my own perceptions, willingness to discount what the other person perceives, lack of second guessing of my own perception) in my interactions with my INFP, I don't know how much I can usefully engage on this.
As I've been writing, something has been nagging at the back of my mind. Wondering, have I ever done this? I haven't been successful, but there is an area where I'm pretty sure I tried quite a bit. And this piece gets me to consciousness about the specifics:
Perhaps the other person recognises the factors and is dealing with them in their own preferred way, and you taking over is denying them the option to choose their own path
It's to do with my partner's personal struggles that affected our lives. For some time, I was trying to deal with it, solve it somehow. About a year ago, I finally realized what should have been obvious to me all along but wasn't: she needs to deal with this stuff in her own way in her own time. The difficulty for me was that both our lives were being harmed by some of her choices about if and when and how to deal with stuff - which they have been in some significant ways in the past. And I am enneagram 6 and there has been some very real scary "physical survival for us both" stuff that has happened. That said, my lived experience at this point is that backing off and trusting that she knows how she needs to move has had very clear outcome advantages over my painful (to us both) attempt to push the issues. I can easily function as an obstacle when I don't step back and allow her to move in her own way at her own pace etc.
eta: But I also need to find ways for her choices not to be running our lives in ways that affect me negatively. That's the sticky part given my tendency to get gravitationally pulled into her landscape.
I think he tapped into my Judging functions more generally. He presented factors and let me process them (ie. evaluate them) through Fi-Te. Going back to the cake batter analogy: you give me the ingredients but I want to mix them my own way. And maybe the batter will result in a cake or maybe it will make a loaf of bread. Some guidance is welcome (eg. reminding me when I've left out an ingredient, querying certain methods of combining things, or telling me when it's burning), but, in most cases, I don't respond well to being instructed on what to make and how to make it.
Hmmm. The other thought I had to your question, SK, was that when I have an initial reaction and haven't determined what reasoning backs up the feeling or if I am undecided, my default is to override myself in favour of the other person's perspective. However, if upon further reflection, something else starts to emerge that brings it into a different focus, then I may backtrack, looking for an argument that settles those questions, or confirming my newer opinion. It is reliant on feedback - I find it hard to make that process happen internally, because I need outer feedback to disprove or confirm my thoughts. I would consider those opinions like concrete that is poured, but still malleable.
Don't know if that is informative or not.
I agree with Werebudgie that Ni isn't likely to take control of the plane, even if it is persistent and convinced of its own rightness based on factors that the other person doesn't readily see. Until I have gotten older, I think I myself even overrode a lot of my Ni gut feelings or projections of the future because I couldn't articulate the reasons for them at the time. I can see how I could be perceived as being rigid or immoveable though and sometimes I do forget to explain Ni observations that affect my decision making because I over assume that other people see the same stuff. I'm getting better now at recognizing other people's processes and who might wish for the chain of intermediate steps to support my present proposed course of action.
[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], I do know your past history, but the way you stated it implied that a large amount of people have issues with PB, when in reality it's probably only...I can think of 4 or 5 offhand. I'm sure each of us on this forum could find the same amount of people who have issues with us, so saying it the way you did was bordering on slander, imo. So, I also find it odd that you felt it would be constructive to imply that many people had issues with PB.
OK I do not want this to turn into bashing you [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] but...
4-5 (all?) of the INFJs who have been active in this thread...Not in any order of preferance: [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION], [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION], [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION], me, any others do pick up something off? Maybe not [MENTION=13502]March[/MENTION]?
People, do interrupt if I am wrong but all these people are sensing something peculiar when interacting with you [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]...we can't shake it off..I am not saying this to insult or insinuate you...This is a feeling I can't shake off...
I do not get this feeling with most other posters in the thread...
[MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION] ; I prefer to mention all this^ in a straightforward fashion cause that issue is an integral part of this thread...I do not want to carry it into private talk or behind closed doors...This has to be sorted out in the open...
This is not an ultimatum or an attempt to dominate you [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]...This is an attempt to straighten things out...before conversations break off entirely...It doesn't imply that you cannot participate in the thread or you are a bad person...It means I am losing my enthusiasm to respond back...
All I ask is to you not hold back anything, be as straightforward as possible, even if it means being insulting in the process...insulting is better than witholding IMO...Just share your story please...
4-5 (all?) of the INFJs who have been active in this thread...Not in any order of preferance: [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION], [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION], [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION], me, any others do pick up something off? Maybe not [MENTION=13502]March[/MENTION]?
Just want to mention again and (if it makes sense to you) add my INFP partner, who isn't a member of this board (internet forums aren't her thing) but has been interested in this discussion. To be clear, she and I don't always agree on things and even when we do, it's often not as clear to us that we agree as it is in this case. And she is, without a doubt, strong minded and of her own mind, as a matter of definition. But - she too picked up on something "off" when I began describing my initial PM discussions with PeaceBaby when PB initiated a PM discussion with me. In fact, my partner picked up on this before it was in my conscious mind. So.... if it's possible to add someone who isn't a member of this board to that list, and an INFP at that, I would ask that she be included in the data, as an observer coming from a different vantage point (an INFP who isn't a member of this forum). A significant chunk of this comment was from her.
Though I will most certainly understand if this list is using criteria that wouldn't usefully include her (INFJs, members of this forum, INFJs who are members of this forum, etc)
I now think I had been mistaken when concluding that you were Fi user Eilonwy...sorry about that...
You are, in your last couple posts, focusing predominantly on "proper etiquette of socially interacting" with other users in the thread...particularly regarding [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] 's posts to [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]...
I think you are a Fe-dom...I do not think you have strong Ti...I guess that may also mean you have Ne-inf, which may be serving as a common ground/language with INFPs here rather than your (non-existent) Fi that I mistook you to have...
This is not aimed to ridicule/humiliate you...It doesn't make your comments invalid or in vain either...I think you would've preferred if I've told this in private but I think it would seriously help to make sense of what's going on in the thread if you gave the possibility that you may not actually be an INFJ a serious thought and re-evaluation...
Specifically because you've been prescribing (your) self-discovery/enlightenment onto INFJs on presumption that you are also an INFJ...but I am failing to draw a parallel to myself in your comments...
Can you identify with what INFJs here have been telling regarding doorslams and their personal difficulties with other people IRL? Who's the next INFJ in the thread that you most identify with?
This does not mean that being an INFJ is a rare privilege reserved for only certain elite people, or that you are not elite enough...It simply means you may be coming forward from an incorrect baseline...and that your prescriptions (that have proved to help you improve yourself) may not suitable for other INFJs here...
OTOH, I think you would have an enormous amount of insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the Fe function...and may most probably relate those insights to the doorslam process...perhaps you've already done so in your blog you mentioned in your PM?
I do not want to say anything bad about PB. There are things that seem incompatible, and that's why I avoid interacting with her. There are a few people here and there I avoid interaction with. That's life.
I do agree with something others have already hit on- it seems to me like it's okay to not like a certain 'type', or to acknowledge that a certain 'type' makes me prickly and may not be worth the effort. If someone doesn't like INFJs, why not just avoid INFJs? I don't understand getting in someone's face to incessantly explain why you think they should be different/what you think is wrong about them when it's totally available to not put yourself through the 'grief' of interacting with them. And that's all I'm going to say. I stopped reading the posts: problem solved.
This is like la-la land, crazy-weird to me, but it is fascinating. The metaphor of layered landscape helps but it's something so totally different to me that I don't think it entirely translates.
One thing it is making me think of are the different, interconnected levels of reality in The Matrix and Inception - as well as the strange seepage between the worlds and the deceptiveness of the immediate reality. Do you think these relate well to the concept of Ni or are they different? If so, how does that work?
Perhaps this analogy may help: There's background radiation and radio waves in our everyday environment that we cannot sense/perceive...Consider Ni as a receiver/detector tuned to pick up on that data (layer)...
Or a more metaphorical analogy would be Ni is gazing into the spirit realm...Is that analogous to the Ni layer that you were describing [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] ?
I think some of us have been conditioned to disown our Ni landscape/perception...I think I've been invalidated in that regard by my sensor parents while growing up, which has caused me to second-guess if what I've picked up thru Ni is really there or not...
I wonder how I'd have turned out if my Ni perceptions had actually been supported/reinforced/validated by my parents (i.e. if I had N-dom aux parents)?
I think he tapped into my Judging functions more generally. He presented factors and let me process them (ie. evaluate them) through Fi-Te. Going back to the cake batter analogy: you give me the ingredients but I want to mix them my own way. And maybe the batter will result in a cake or maybe it will make a loaf of bread. Some guidance is welcome (eg. reminding me when I've left out an ingredient, querying certain methods of combining things, or telling me when it's burning), but, in most cases, I don't respond well to being instructed on what to make and how to make it.
I think one my coworkers is an ISFP...My main mode of establishing bond and rapport with other people is offering them practical help (Fe?) when I sense that they are distressed somehow...With this coworker, that has proved to trigger a resistance in her as if she was trying to retain/maintain her independence/autonomy...She may also have seen me not reliable enough yet...
So whenever I see her in distress now, I just ask her if there's anything I can help with or just drop a suggestion that I think may prove to be helpful and leave her alone to think on it herself...?
I may become more assertive/insistent if my job description, jurisdiction or responsibilities somehow create an overlap with hers that allow/dictate me to interfere...otherwise it's entirely up to her to make up her own mind...
how would i go about doing this in a way that felt right to you? could you give an example or two? what do you experience when you empathize with her, and what that i have written most triggers the difficult reactions?
At the risk of sounding evasive, I don't know; I can't really do that. It's so difficult to describe that sort of thing. As it has been said before, INFPs often react to things in "feeling tones", which are some of the most intangible concepts in existence. I suppose what happened was that I picked up a vibe, and then I saw PB reacting in a way that I grasped with familiarity, and I connected the two naturally. When I talked about empathising strongly with her, I mean that I felt that I felt her feelings so keenly as if they were channelled through me. I could feel all the unsaid things behind what she said so clearly - I could hear her inner voice.* Now I'm sure I got some details wrong, but the underlying elements I'm believe were fairly accurate.
It's hard to point out specifics of what causes problems because it's so subtle and so connected to many other subtle elements through Ne, that it's almost pointless to describe that stuff. Even PB responded to the thing as a whole rather than go through line by line.
I apologise for being difficult and vague.
*This is all very wanky and ridiculous to write down BTW. I feel like an idiot. That's part of the reason why INFPs don't bother explaining that stuff - it just sounds like silly nonsense.
in the meantime, could you explain how you see something as underhanded? is it a lack of request for specific behaviors (Te) and more of a focus on attitude (Fe) that feels controlling and condescending to you? is it that the attitude that we try to bring to the conversation doesn't really connect to her experience, so it doesn't feel like the attempt to balance our message that we are making is worth anything to you bc it is simply unnecessary?
Some of it felt like dodging the issue and then turning it around in a different way. I know this is how you guys operate, but man, it can feel like someone passing cups of tea to you around the elephant in the room, whilst discussing the weather. It becomes more problematic when the whole thing is then turned around into a theoretical discussion on, "why elephants make awkward guests and why one should avoid bringing them to tea parties". Instead of just saying, "This elephant makes me uncomfortable and I don't like it because (X). Is it yours and did you bring mean to bring it? If so why? I would appreciate if you didn't in future" or whatever. The thing is all you have to say is, "I feel (Y)" or "I don't understand - what do you mean by (Z)?" because that's all you have to say to get our attention and co-operation.
BTW I personally wasn't immediately offended by your post, but PB was in a different mindset to me and I can see why she felt like that. I think part of the problem is that she was trying to cut through the "white-noise" and discuss the elephant (ie. get to the heart of the matter) but in response you guys kept dancing around it and convoluting the whole thing. In some cases people kept turning everything she said around and made it about her, implying she was the source of the problem (this is the result, not the intention). This is also strange because Js (especially Je dom/aux) are supposed to be the ones keeping thing moving forward with clarity and purpose, and here's some Ps (especially Je-inf) complaining about stalling, deflecting, digressing and nit-picking. I just think INFJs can delay progress by analysing stuff to death, churning out yet more unnecessary complexity and confusion like a giant fog machine. No one point can be agreed upon, so nothing moves forward. And when it's used in discussion which it places your type in a negative light, it starts to look like a conscious effort to make things go around in circles, distancing it further from yourself each time round. I'm increasingly starting to see it as your denial function.
I realise that sounds harsh, but I don't know how to put it lightly without adding more obscurity. I do honestly believe you mean well and think you have a lot of valuable things to say.
i don't know if i need this disclaimer or not, but i see that you are obviously trying. i think it's the way you follow through with it that is most helpful. you are owning your emotions and sharing them, which is disarming, grounding us in relationship rather than in ideas.
Thanks? I know it's rather clumsy but I have made mistakes before in not establishing goodwill beforehand. I also can be unconsciously insensitive because I naturally tend to skip disclaimers and framing devices, even explanations, as I think these are implied and obvious. I realise other people need these things, so I need to try to harder (especially in writing, because gestures and tone can function as framing devices themselves). I knew what I was about to say was potentially offensive and that was not my intention, so I tried to get that across as best I could.
this is helpful to me. i see what she is doing more clearly with the thread as a whole, especially in terms of what she sees as her role, how she wants to make a contribution, and what she wants to gain from it.
one thing to note for me is that i don't know if it is just a "negative context" that trips us up. to me what bothers me more is an unbalanced perspective. when i feel like obviously significant perspectives are simply tabled or not recognized (so the blend gets off), i lose trust. how we negotiate your ability to explore a perspective separately in shared space with how we feel like the other perspectives, the key context, are blended, centered, aggregated, and ultimately acknowledged, i think, is a major obstacle. for us, the integrity that we judge Je-wise is what is at stake. it's not as easy for us to keep our awareness on the flow of multiple, differentiated perspectives, of a lot of simultaneous stories. it's easier for us to see the unity of the shape of it, like looking at a chessboard from overhead and recognizing key structural, elemental patterns.
additionally, i can't explain how much i live in hypothetical space. i make hypotheses at every moment. lots of them. kind of like how intjs sometimes make arguments as their de facto way of thinking, even as they are interpreting others. it's really difficult to explain the jenga-y-ness of this structure. i understand it can be very frustrating, especially if you can't stay grounded in a specific task, a specific dialectical process anchored in something. if we can get to a place where we empathize with your needs and feel like we receive the same empathy, it makes this easier.
I can appreciate that. However, I think that if you overcomplicate things for yourselves that this can make it difficult to for Ni to connect and make sense of things. Perhaps, if you can resolve things point by point and then you're juggling one less ball each time you do.
i think you have brought to my attention another disconnect that seems to be happening on both sides. while i do think it helps to have a sense of how she conceives of her role, as i mentioned earlier, especially as a so inferior like i obviously am, what's more frustrating to me is less about what she is trying to do or why she is trying to do it and more about the presuppositions i see in her thinking process. i imagine this is exactly how you guys feel, too. that the other person's assumptions, our assumptions, are driving you crazy. i thought to uncover those, it would be helpful to more directly address the emotional issues in the communication process, and i tried to be clear that i was seeing the shame problem as something that was clearly affecting both sides of the debate (because it was leading to hypersensitivity and an inability to deal with those presuppositions constructively).
i was being a bit directive by trying to aim the conversation in that way. for me, the way this feels is when i feel like the commitment to offer balanced perspective is fair and compassionate, i appreciate guidance from others. admittedly, it happens easier with ntps for me, but there's been many times when i've been totally perplexed that my infp 4w5 friend didn't offer more feedback, because at times he understands some of what i am going through better than i do. i don't quite see his rules that prevent him from doing so.
Again, I respect that. But just as NPs must learn to commit to a perspective, FJs must learn to commit to a judgement, or nothing is decided upon. You can't play the field forever - you need to pick a path and move forward.
i find that saddening too.
i do think it's fair to say that there is at times just a real difficulty in working out conflict and getting our needs met. i appreciate that you've tried to show us how this frustration is happening for you. i'm not trying to compound it, but i am having a difficult time being held accountable to something i am struggling to observe or understand. while i feel like i wrote my last few posts from an honest place and from a place in which i had let go of my resentment (which wasn't even personal but for my identification with infjs and zbuck in particular), i recognize that that doesn't eliminate the presuppositions. i'm still not sure what to do with some of the ones that were read into what i wrote, when i don't even hold them. for instance, the "hard worker" thing was my attempt at showing that i appreciated what i saw as part of the role peacebaby has often tried to play on the forums. it was a way of appreciating her commitment to the discussions we have and attempt to bring something of value forth from them. but that was read as a slight. that's what i feel like redirecting to a point where the shame we feel when we feel like we are wrong, or that we are being pressured into feeling like we are wrong, is creating not only distrust but vehemence. i felt good that i could write from a place free of that, so i thought i could share both my experience and my perspective.
perhaps both sides could be more specific when explaining what exactly is giving them trouble? perhaps too some old conflicts are getting in the way? it is difficult for me to separate those interpersonal conflicts from how they color the conclusions drawn in the thread, as if they are still "representative types" that are expressing the type itself rather than their own unique histories. i think those are difficult to keep straight.
The thing is, it feels like (from my perspective) that we've done this over and over. It seems like there were plenty of times when your (speaking of the INFJs in this thread in general, here) Fe found some truth and then later your Ti lawyer would tear up the contract and sends everything into legal proceedings. I get this is probably part of your method of processing things but it's so baffling. From my view it's like you guys have amnesia to the previous Fe clarity and empathic grasp on things. Now you're stuck responding only to the Ti data, which is only the stuff immediately in front of your face, endlessly back and forth, which basically precludes any Ni overarching comprehension or a Fe conclusion. The same thing has happened in previous threads too. I guess you guys just can't see when this is happening.
Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll come back for more in the morning.
That said, I genuinely like her and for the most part enjoy being around her. You, on the other hand, feel icky to me at the gut-visceral level. This icky feeling in me is not the same as INFJ/INFP cognitive function tensions. I've interacted with other INFPs as well and felt the cognitive function tensions. It's not the same thing as how I feel you. There's something about you in particular, as an individual, not sourced to INFP/INFJ cognitive function differences and tensions that repels me at a visceral level.
OK I do not want this to turn into bashing you PeaceBaby but...
People, do interrupt if I am wrong but all these people are sensing something peculiar when interacting with you PeaceBaby...we can't shake it off..I am not saying this to insult or insinuate you...This is a feeling I can't shake off...
I have to confess that when I read werebudgie's contribution last night it was a lot of negative energy to absorb. I had to go have a good cry about it.
That feeling though that she describes ... it's not about me. It's about her. Anyone else feeling it, it's about you. My interactions with you are striking into an inner place that makes you very uncomfortable.
I'm just a mirror. What you see in the mirror or feel about the mirror isn't about the mirror. (Well, certainly we all have our favorite mirrors!) But it's a signal, the feeling is a cue to riff around in the inner world.
I'd enjoy exploring that inner place if anyone would like to.
I have to confess that when I read werebudgie's contribution last night it was a lot of negative energy to absorb. I had to go have a good cry about it.
That feeling though that she describes ... it's not about me. It's about her. Anyone else feeling it, it's about you. My interactions with you are striking into an inner place that makes you very uncomfortable.
I'm just a mirror. What you see in the mirror or feel about the mirror isn't about the mirror. (Well, certainly we all have our favorite mirrors!) But the feeling is a cue to riff around in the inner world.
I'd enjoy exploring that inner place if anyone would like to.
I am sorry all that caused a hurt in you but as you also mention in your quote above, sometimes that hurt may actually be pointing towards a wound that you have not been aware of before...
I am wondering what's behind the mirror rather than the image in the mirror...
And the ball is in your court now...Please do not pass it back to the other side...
I wonder if the whole "INFJ doorslam" issue only exists because people appreciate the presence of particular people in their lives so much that jars them when that person exercises their common right to privacy and silence. Is contempt for INFJs a consequence of idealizing them?
i don't know if it is because of value, or because in close relationships we seem to go so far until it is over (and part of this also might be the e4 --> e2 stress point, where we lose ourselves and struggle feeling stuck in our identification with the other person, projecting all the while). i don't really see any clear instances of "doorslamming" in my past, i mean, i have breakups, and i'd tend to avoid certain people, but never have i just cut ties on a close relationship. i'd avoid explaining, at times, that the relationship wasn't for me what it was for the other person, and i do regret not being more straightforward or being more willing and more committed to finding an effective way to communicate that. i admit that part of it was my own unwillingness to be the bad guy, even if it was just in someone else's eyes. oftentimes, i didn't grasp my own needs, so i couldn't really do so in a non-violent way where i could both accept and respect us both, and allow that to be enough, with no quasi-absolute perspective to feel like i needed to orient towards. i may struggle to see and empathize with the other person through a major change in how i view a relationship. i knew an infj girl who i was friends with who, when she had found out that i had dated another girl in our class when we were friends in undergrad, seemed hurt and wouldn't really engage me after the fact. i think the unwillingness to even allow for explanations might be an Fe thing (i can imagine enfjs and entps, especially 3w4s who come to mind; more reason why to me it's part of the e4 disconnect ability). but the demand to control the explanation of what happened when we are hurt, when dammnit we need to come first, is not.
i do wonder too, because i'm relating to your posts a lot in this thread, whether you feel that some of the doorslam thing is in part an e4 phenomenon? one of my best friends is an infp 4w5 so/sx. he's told me stories about cutting ties, telling people off and distrusting them. i think he tells me this because i just get where it comes from, i too know what it's like (at least for the most part). it to me feels like something we can genuinely share. like the experience that we have to choose ourselves, because our shaming is piling up so fast we have to abandon one of us. i can't feel this way about myself any more, and i'm so angry that i do. the breaking point thing seems to be about the ability to suddenly disconnect from others. this feels vintage e4 to me.
as i've tried to say elsewhere, it might be a bit different in terms for an infj in that they may struggle even more so to feel in touch with their own needs. maybe we stay polite on the outer surface more. maybe we do not trust ourselves to be able to manage our own boundaries or trust ourselves to be able to say no. maybe we struggle to find the resources to know ourselves in a way that we can communicate effectively not just about what is happening but in terms of where we are at. that's a crucial difference.
what was your doorslam experience? from your description of the way you feel like you converse with infjs (the testing each other thing, which i know too, and i too know how it feels when it's overcome by trust), it's easier for me to trust how you represent the situation with the picture of your experience you paint. i did at least go into avoidance mode with one infp, a 4w5 so/sx. we both felt super distrustful of each other's motives, but at the same time, we had a lot to talk about. i think in that case our respective self-esteem issues conflicted. for me, there was some boundary violation and insinuation that made me feel uncomfortable. i kind of felt like i was a story he was researching for a writing project. like, when you respond, and theyre already in the middle of elaborating their next question to characterize you, and you're just exhausted by the feeling that something is being taken from you. and you don't even get to speak for yourself, directly. to be fair, i kinda think i get where he was coming from, but to offer to get to the center of that whirling blades machine was not feasible for me. i had my own shit to deal with that i wasn't doing very well with. and i think i did believe in the possibility of being direct with each other (and this difficulty being direct with each other, maybe more than anything, can be a frustration in the infj/infp dynamic).
eta: at least now, i'm starting to recognize that this quasi-absolute perspective to orient towards has to do with what i want to contribute to the world, what i believe in, and not what is inherently "right." it's not easy both grounding yourself and letting go of the foundationalist quality of belief at the same time. i think recognizing that there's more ways of being present in the situation is a good start.
I see your point though, and it's a good one. Plus, there's no guarantee that anyone is speaking the absolute truth either in real life or text. 
