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[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

Eilonwy

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Not ignoring anybody. [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], I'm working on compiling a story for you (Si, Ti, heck I don't know), but it might take a while. You want an example of my journey, so I have to go back through my blogs, but my mom is sick right now and my time is limited. Everyone else who posted to me, I'll get back with you, too, eventually.

But for now, going back through my oldest blog and thinking about some of the things brought up in this thread, the following thought popped into my head and I thought it had some significance:

We keep talking about trust and trusted feedback issues, and I wondered if the answer to who we can listen to and trust ends up being ourselves. I know, I know, we need the feedback in order to build the model. We need trusted feedback in order to build a realistic model. But in all of that, it seems that we don't trust ourselves to discern the difference between reality and not reality, without polling outside of ourselves for reassurance. We don't feel safe enough in our own judgement to take some risks. We don't trust that we can make our own judgement, find out that it's wrong (or right), and deal with whatever consequences come up. So, maybe we need a little more trust in ourselves in order to be able to take more risks. And when I say 'risks', I'm not talking about the extreme. No jumping off of cliffs, or tempting serial killers. Just taking risks with normal people in normal relationships.

ETA: Oh, and I'm not saying the other extreme either: trusting in ourselves exclusively to the point of arrogance.

There needs to be some middle ground. Gray areas. We sometimes seem to have no gray areas. I know I bounce between the extremes a lot before finally settling, hopefully, somewhere in the middle. And I know I have a hard time trusting my own judgement. If I can't trust me, then how can I ever really trust anyone else? And I know I don't like having to deal with the consequences of being wrong. It takes a lot of energy to do so. I try to opt for efficiency. But that can be so limiting. And it takes just as much or more energy to go through all of the possible consequences and plan and strategize for those consequences, rather than just taking action and dealing with whatever happens.
 

Eilonwy

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Also, it seems to me that when it comes down to fight or flight, I'm wired to choose flight. It's hard to fight against that urge, but it's doable.

Example from my childhood:
In 6th grade I was paired with a boy named Jon for some science project. Jon and I got along really well; I enjoyed talking with him and I wasn't yet in the phase of being boy-crazy, so he was just a fun kid to do a project with. But, unbeknownst to me, or to Jon for that matter, a girl named Susie had pegged Jon as her boyfriend, and told me that she was going to have to beat me up for talking to him. She told me to be in the playground after school. Well, first off, I had never been in a physical fight in my life, and I'm not partial to voluntarily putting myself in situations to be beaten up because I consider myself a wimp when it comes to physical strength. Second, I knew that if I showed up, it wouldn't be just Susie there to beat me up, she had one or two other girls who always hung around with her and they would most likely be there, too. So, my initial instinct was to figure out how to avoid the beating: flight. But, I figured that if I didn't show up, she would just beat me up some other time, and I would have to live with the fear of that until it happened, so, as scared as I was, I showed up. And she didn't. And she never bothered me again. Yes, there was always the possibility that she would have shown up and beaten the snot out of me, but that isn't what actually happened. And I couldn't know that until I took the chance.

The point is not to show up for every fight, some fights are worth avoiding, but that fighting is an option, no matter how much it might feel like it's not because of being wired for flight.


ETA: This particular experience stayed with me because it's a part of my framework or model. It taught me some important lessons that I want to remember. That seems to be the case with all the "big" experiences I remember: they have helped to integrate some sort of lesson into my psyche. Maybe lessons that aren't naturally a part of my wiring? :shrug: Not sure.
 

the state i am in

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Not ignoring anybody. [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION], I'm working on compiling a story for you (Si, Ti, heck I don't know), but it might take a while. You want an example of my journey, so I have to go back through my blogs, but my mom is sick right now and my time is limited. Everyone else who posted to me, I'll get back with you, too, eventually.

But for now, going back through my oldest blog and thinking about some of the things brought up in this thread, the following thought popped into my head and I thought it had some significance:

We keep talking about trust and trusted feedback issues, and I wondered if the answer to who we can listen to and trust ends up being ourselves. I know, I know, we need the feedback in order to build the model. We need trusted feedback in order to build a realistic model. But in all of that, it seems that we don't trust ourselves to discern the difference between reality and not reality, without polling outside of ourselves for reassurance. We don't feel safe enough in our own judgement to take some risks. We don't trust that we can make our own judgement, find out that it's wrong (or right), and deal with whatever consequences come up. So, maybe we need a little more trust in ourselves in order to be able to take more risks. And when I say 'risks', I'm not talking about the extreme. No jumping off of cliffs, or tempting serial killers. Just taking risks with normal people in normal relationships.

ETA: Oh, and I'm not saying the other extreme either: trusting in ourselves exclusively to the point of arrogance.

There needs to be some middle ground. Gray areas. We sometimes seem to have no gray areas. I know I bounce between the extremes a lot before finally settling, hopefully, somewhere in the middle. And I know I have a hard time trusting my own judgement. If I can't trust me, then how can I ever really trust anyone else? And I know I don't like having to deal with the consequences of being wrong. It takes a lot of energy to do so. I try to opt for efficiency. But that can be so limiting. And it takes just as much or more energy to go through all of the possible consequences and plan and strategize for those consequences, rather than just taking action and dealing with whatever happens.

i agree with you. that's why i was trying to suggest that in terms of understanding and dealing with the conflict in the thread, it would be more productive to focus on emotions and qualities of relationship rather than on cognitive functions. it's not easy to have positive relationships with others, yet we need these positive relationships to teach us how to have positive relationships with ourselves. and we need positive relationships with ourselves to have positive relationships with others. i think infps and infjs, as withdrawn types, often tend to lack self-trust. 4s fear abandonment, so they shame themselves to always try to stay ahead of the game, to prevent themselves from being on the wrong side of the fence. however, in so doing, they practice abandoning themselves, and so their self-shaming invokes existential, unholy terror in them. this is not going to instill self trust. 9s can't find themselves at times and struggle to recognize the necessary boundaries between their needs and others, so they struggle to be overwhelmed by others while also needing to identify with them to have any grounding. 5s simply disappear into their minds, losing their bodies and losing touch with their desires, frantically trying to understand and in so doing not recognizing that they are simply projecting their own emotions, their own distrust, into the world because they've lost the part of themselves can offer that to themselves.

it's clear that we're both really sensitive types who at times feel powerless to work through all the difficult shit we feel. not to mention, many of us are weird and somewhat unconventional, so it can be extra trying as we grow up and hope for others to be able to understand and empathize with us. it's difficult to have a good handle on our own emotional issues when many of us, i assume, tend to hide these aspects of ourselves for survival, rather than share them with others and work through them. as a male, this is certainly my story.

it's also clear that there can be some communication challenges, especially around the touchy spots. i get that infjs tend to offer what they see as balanced perspective, at times nudging the other towards the center of where they perceive that to be even before they have fully done the work to empathize with what the experience is like for the other person. at the same time, infps tend to try out different ways of experiencing something and at times expecting others to empathize with each one, when empathy is a gift and rather than something owed is something that you can ask for when you take responsibility to recognize your own needs and vulnerabilities and share them with others in a way that gives them the power to choose. it's clear to me that in our own ways, we are trying to offer some listening, at times even going to the 7 habits dictum "seek first to understand rather than to be understood." but that isn't always enough bc of the translation, and the extreme sensitivity and at times unpolished emotional communication we offer each other. because in part of the cognitive function difference, the trust and effort needed to get across the gap is greater. when the relationship is stressed, however, it becomes easier to say fuck it, i deserve to be heard in my own terms!

perhaps even more than more self-conscious of cognitive function communication is simply a requirement for more diligent emotionally intelligent communication practices.
 

PeaceBaby

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it would be more productive to focus on emotions and qualities of relationship rather than on cognitive functions.

I've advocated for this for as long as I can remember. It does not happen.

i get that infjs tend to offer what they see as balanced perspective, at times nudging the other towards the center of where they perceive that to be even before they have fully done the work to empathize with what the experience is like for the other person.

There's not a gentle to way to say this, but it must be said. That's a nice sentence, but I sincerely don't think you get it, at all. The issue at point is that you can only nudge someone towards a balanced perspective when you can actually see and acknowledge that perspective. It's about far more than lip service to the concept of empathy. You cannot empathize with something you don't even know exists. Or something you don't agree with. Or something that is alien to you. Or something you choose to ignore.

When I think of the hundreds if not thousands of hours I've invested, baring my heart and soul in the interest of communications, showing INFJ's genuine emotion centered in the construct of my inner space and to see it makes no difference at all... can you imagine how saddening that is? Reading my old posts brings tears to my eyes at how naive I was to think that this was the answer.

I've concluded over the course of the 5 years that I have been here that Fi is indeed utterly inaccessible and even invisible to (nearly all) INFJs. I mistakenly thought that because you were Ni doms you would be able to shift perspective and see even just a wee slice of what it's like to exist in my inner realm, and if you did, we could connect. I've explained it and I've demonstrated it. I do not have Ni in my construct but I can still sense your place in it, even though that feels quite mystical to me.

You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.
 

Werebudgie

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When I think of the hundreds if not thousands of hours I've invested, baring my heart and soul in the interest of communications, showing INFJ's genuine emotion centered in the construct of my inner space and to see it makes no difference at all... can you imagine how saddening that is? Reading my old posts brings tears to my eyes at how naive I was to think that this was the answer.

I've concluded over the course of the 5 years that I have been here that Fi is indeed utterly inaccessible and even invisible to (nearly all) INFJs. I mistakenly thought that because you were Ni doms you would be able to shift perspective and see even just a wee slice of what it's like to exist in my inner realm, and if you did, we could connect. I've explained it and I've demonstrated it. I do not have Ni in my construct but I can still sense your place in it, even though that feels quite mystical to me.

You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], I just had a conversation with my INFP partner about this particular comment you posted and have also been discussing this thread with her for some time.

Two things came up that we both agree on:

1. We both feel that the problem you have with INFJs is not due to you being an INFP, but instead due to something else about you as an individual.

To speak from my specific location in a real life INFJ/INFP dynamic: I have had tons and TONS of difficulty of communication with my partner and we've had lots of struggles related to differences in our respective cognitive functions. And she simply hasn't tried to accommodate me the way you claim you try to accommodate INFJs. Not at all.

That said, I genuinely like her and for the most part enjoy being around her. You, on the other hand, feel icky to me at the gut-visceral level. This icky feeling in me is not the same as INFJ/INFP cognitive function tensions. I've interacted with other INFPs as well and felt the cognitive function tensions. It's not the same thing as how I feel you. There's something about you in particular, as an individual, not sourced to INFP/INFJ cognitive function differences and tensions that repels me at a visceral level.

It seems to both myself and my INFP partner that you've managed to mask whatever this is about you as an individual behind the very real tensions that can arise between INFJs and INFPs. This blurs up a lot of discussion, because your individual stuff (that isn't due to INFJ-INFP differences) gets tangled up in the INFJ-INFP-dynamic discussion. This tangle creates an escalated/heightened level of affect in the thread, and is not particularly useful for clarity IMO.

2. In response to your lamenting about your interactions with INFJs given all your efforts:

My partner said it best: "If this group [INFJs] aren't a fit for her, she should find other people to connect with who aren't INFJ. No big deal."

I agree. I see a lot of evidence, in your own self-reporting, in the interactions on this board, and in my brief interactional experience of you from the very beginning, that you're trying to connect with people who aren't a good fit for you. Sometimes there just isn't a good fit. This happens in life, everyone is not a good fit with everyone else for personal connections, and it's not the end of the world. I think my partner is correct when she says, "Just move on, then."

And again, to be clear, I do not think any of this leads back into the "can INFJs (generally) and INFPs (generally) bridge the differences and tensions between us" (which is the collective rut that things fall into sometimes). Because as I said above, both myself and my INFP partner think that your difficulties with INFJs are NOT due to your INFP cognitive functions in you, but rather something else that is specific to you as an individual - something that has gotten way too tangled into the other, real tensions between our two types.

And also again to be clear: not only are my INFP partner and I in accord on the above, but she led the analysis I'm sharing above.
 

the state i am in

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I've advocated for this for as long as I can remember. It does not happen.

i find it frustrating when you say that you also advocate for focusing on emotions and qualities of relationship, and then your response includes talk of functions again.

There's not a gentle to way to say this, but it must be said. That's a nice sentence, but I sincerely don't think you get it, at all. The issue at point is that you can only nudge someone towards a balanced perspective when you can actually see and acknowledge that perspective. It's about far more than lip service to the concept of empathy. You cannot empathize with something you don't even know exists. Or something you don't agree with. Or something that is alien to you. Or something you choose to ignore.

so you focus on where they are coming from, and we focus on what they are trying to do/say, what we think they were going for. to me that's just a different way of organizing and selecting relevant context. depending on your definitions, infp is better at empathy, infj is better at understanding. each is identifying with a different aspect of the person. both are still rooted in trying to know and care for others. neither has cornered the market on compassion. to me that just seems like different starting places, and i agree that both are important. they are to me because they together offer more, when to recognize how to do both is really helpful for improving relationships. for me, personally, a focus on empathy helps me access the place in myself that can give acceptance, which i've never been very good at. understanding, meanwhile, helps me clean my mind of the shitty ways of talking to myself that restrict me from having the energy to open up to myself and others. it also helps me effectively communicate what emotions, experiences, and circumstances i am empathizing with.

When I think of the hundreds if not thousands of hours I've invested, baring my heart and soul in the interest of communications, showing INFJ's genuine emotion centered in the construct of my inner space and to see it makes no difference at all... can you imagine how saddening that is? Reading my old posts brings tears to my eyes at how naive I was to think that this was the answer.

it sounds like you want me to appreciate how hard you are trying. it also sounds like you want me to believe that you are not just putting on an act. and it sounds like you want me to understand what it is like to share something personal and still feel like you are woefully misunderstood. is this correct?

I've concluded over the course of the 5 years that I have been here that Fi is indeed utterly inaccessible and even invisible to (nearly all) INFJs. I mistakenly thought that because you were Ni doms you would be able to shift perspective and see even just a wee slice of what it's like to exist in my inner realm, and if you did, we could connect. I've explained it and I've demonstrated it. I do not have Ni in my construct but I can still sense your place in it, even though that feels quite mystical to me.

i understand what it feels like to try to articulate how your experience is shaped, before it comes out so fluffy and rounded in spoken language. i've tried many times to illustrate Ni. you can even find some of them in this thread. usually when i do that, like in a post earlier to southern kross in this thread, i get no response, because it is so difficult to fathom. it's frustrating, because i want others to know what my most fundamental form of experience, the place where my self feels like it begins, is really like. to both accept its limitations and to appreciate its strengths.

You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.

it's frustrating to me when you tell me what i would feel. i would prefer if you would just share what you are feeling. i don't feel like that respects my ability to understand my own situation uniquely, depending on the frameworks i use to observe them. isn't it possible that i could understand the situation differently than you? that you could even understand the situation differently than you do now? wouldn't this have some impact on how i would feel? and wouldn't my needs, which generate my sense of good and bad, shape whether my feelings would ultimately be the same as yours, even given the same circumstance otherwise?
 

Eilonwy

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So, this is INFJ empathy at its best? Someone is vulnerable and puts their feelings out there and this is what they get in return?

INFJs shouldn't be called Counselors.
 

Eilonwy

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Once again, what I see being said is that if someone doesn't meet our criteria for conversing, then they will be admonished until they either bend to our demands or they are badgered or ridiculed into leaving us alone. The blame is put back on them. Is there no responsibility for the breakdown in communication that falls on us? None at all?
 

digesthisickness

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No thread ever made me more happy to be a T. You people are terrifying.
 

Fidelia

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In response to your post Eilonwy -

You're right, my post talked about INFJ needs. To my way of thinking, it is easiest for both parties to decide whether they want to engage further if both lay out what they need for the conversation to be productive. I'm not asking someone to come all the way to my side of the park. In fact, I would prefer that they also lay out what they need and we both determine if/how we want to proceed from there.

I think one commonality in a lot of these INFJ posts is that we are doing what we ourselves would like done if we were on the receiving end - stating our intentions/feelings and offering what we see as a workable alternative to the present situation. I don't see that as an ultimatum, but rather as being proactive. It's not fair just to make hazy, general complaints and not give the other person any idea of what I think would be better. However, that doesn't mean that the person has to accept that solution. They are free to counter with a different perspective or proposed course of action. If they are similar enough that both parties want to make the adjustment, great. If not, one or both can opt not to follow that course of action.

While Werebudgie stated it in perhaps stronger terms than I might have, I do agree that there are times when it's okay to recognize that you might not hitch with everyone and that doesn't make them or you a bad person. Generally, people come to these discussions because the topic at hand is relevant to them and they either want to air their feelings on it, or they have questions they need information to be able to answer. Hopefully they are able to remain civil while doing so, and sometimes there is something even to be gained from seeing where it is that misunderstandings arise. Sometimes though, I think it's okay to choose not to engage when you know the exchange won't be helpful or productive to either party (not saying I'm deciding for the other person, but rather that past outcome is a powerful indicator of future outcome and there's been lots of past outcome to go on).

I have indeed had private conversations with Peacebaby, and as I've stated before, respect her greatly in other areas where I believe she shows a lot of expertise and knowledgeability. I think she is an outstandingly helpful and kind person, and I also see that she has expended a lot of effort in communicating with INFJs. On the other hand, I also have seen over the course of half a decade that engaging in discussions about this particular topic with her end up making her feel rotten and making me feel frustrated (at least on my part, I don't find that to be true regarding other topics when I am talking to her). That shouldn't negate her or my ability to visit and participate in threads that we are both interested in.

I appreciate that you are in a different place in your life than I am right now, Eilonwy, so things may look differently to you from your vantage point. I respect that, and certainly don't want to add more to the emotional load that you already are carrying.

However, this is one of the few bits of leisure time I afford myself in the day. During the time I spend here, while I am looking to grow personally, I am here primarily to maybe pick up a bit of information, interact socially, compare my experiences with others, and become more informed about some things. If the negatives of an interaction outweigh the positives with no foreseeable change in sight, the person is not within the circle of people I work with, live with or are responsible for, and I'm not being mean-spiritedly reactive or trying to hurt someone, I just can't see what is wrong about letting things drift for a bit. That doesn't mean the door is banged shut in the future or that I thing it is someone's shortcomings that are making me less receptive at this time. We just are not starting from common enough ground to interact well.
 

digesthisickness

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Yeah, when personal values are your first priority, and you're at odds with someone, handling the situation can become twisted in its deliberation.

Yeah, I've been watching and reading this thread thinking it would help me communicate optimally with my INFP, but all I accomplish is getting confused and eventually a scary feeling happens wherein I start to think I'm doomed. Time to exit and just keep doing what I'm doing and 'feel' my own way, I suppose.

I do wish things could get settled here though. I may not get why, but I DO recognize when something is important to someone else, and it clearly is. It's one of those situations where I can't help but wonder if all of this would get settled faster and more thoroughly if everyone were in person and in a room or two together. Like the 'human' aspect is missing here; something so important, maybe, considering the source? I dunno. *shrug* Just seems that so much caring and need to understand should get along better.
 
G

Ginkgo

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You have no idea how much farther I come to meet you than you come to meet me. If you knew, it would make you cry too.

Don't forget the possibility that Ne simply needs more external confirmation than Ni does.
 

Eilonwy

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In response to your post Eilonwy -

You're right, my post talked about INFJ needs. To my way of thinking, it is easiest for both parties to decide whether they want to engage further if both lay out what they need for the conversation to be productive. I'm not asking someone to come all the way to my side of the park. In fact, I would prefer that they also lay out what they need and we both determine if/how we want to proceed from there.

I think one commonality in a lot of these INFJ posts is that we are doing what we ourselves would like done if we were on the receiving end - stating our intentions/feelings and offering what we see as a workable alternative to the present situation. I don't see that as an ultimatum, but rather as being proactive. It's not fair just to make hazy, general complaints and not give the other person any idea of what I think would be better. However, that doesn't mean that the person has to accept that solution. They are free to counter with a different perspective or proposed course of action. If they are similar enough that both parties want to make the adjustment, great. If not, one or both can opt not to follow that course of action.

While Werebudgie stated it in perhaps stronger terms than I might have, I do agree that there are times when it's okay to recognize that you might not hitch with everyone and that doesn't make them or you a bad person. Generally, people come to these discussions because the topic at hand is relevant to them and they either want to air their feelings on it, or they have questions they need information to be able to answer. Hopefully they are able to remain civil while doing so, and sometimes there is something even to be gained from seeing where it is that misunderstandings arise. Sometimes though, I think it's okay to choose not to engage when you know the exchange won't be helpful or productive to either party (not saying I'm deciding for the other person, but rather that past outcome is a powerful indicator of future outcome and there's been lots of past outcome to go on).

I have indeed had private conversations with Peacebaby, and as I've stated before, respect her greatly in other areas where I believe she shows a lot of expertise and knowledgeability. I think she is an outstandingly helpful and kind person, and I also see that she has expended a lot of effort in communicating with INFJs. On the other hand, I also have seen over the course of half a decade that engaging in discussions about this particular topic with her end up making her feel rotten and making me feel frustrated (at least on my part, I don't find that to be true regarding other topics when I am talking to her). That shouldn't negate her or my ability to visit and participate in threads that we are both interested in.

I appreciate that you are in a different place in your life than I am right now, Eilonwy, so things may look differently to you from your vantage point. I respect that, and certainly don't want to add more to the emotional load that you already are carrying.

However, this is one of the few bits of leisure time I afford myself in the day. During the time I spend here, while I am looking to grow personally, I am here primarily to maybe pick up a bit of information, interact socially, compare my experiences with others, and become more informed about some things. If the negatives of an interaction outweigh the positives with no foreseeable change in sight, the person is not within the circle of people I work with, live with or are responsible for, and I'm not being mean-spiritedly reactive or trying to hurt someone, I just can't see what is wrong about letting things drift for a bit. That doesn't mean the door is banged shut in the future or that I thing it is someone's shortcomings that are making me less receptive at this time. We just are not starting from common enough ground to interact well.

So, if this particular conversation isn't to your liking, you have the choice to not participate. If you want to contribute, but don't want to engage [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], then contribute and don't engage PeaceBaby. If you don't want her to engage you, then tell her that directly (which can be done politely). Or if this particular thread isn't meeting your needs, you can always start one that does. You have options. You make your own choices. You can own those choices. What other people do may influence those choices, but the choices are still yours.

However, this is a public thread, and I think it's unfair to tell PeaceBaby that she can't or shouldn't participate, for whatever reason. Or that she can only participate if her posts meet certain criteria put forth by other posters. Just because some people might not find her posts informative or to their liking, doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way. She's also allowed to make her own choices and own them.

As to the bolded, you might prefer that, but what if the other parties are saying that they don't? What then? Stalemate?


ETA: The point I'm trying to make is not that the INFJs shouldn't lay out their needs or preferences, but that they should recognize that by doing that and not being willing to negotiate those needs, they are effectively trying to control the conversation. They can't expect others to comply, and then say it's the other's fault for not complying. They can ask for others to comply and then accept whatever answer they get, or negotiate further. If you're happy waiting to converse with only those people who meet your needs and preferences, that's fine. That doesn't mean that everyone else should stop conversing. And if you find you don't hitch with someone, then YOU don't hitch with them, as opposed to telling them that THEY don't hitch with you. Do you see that the first one is taking ownership and the second one is laying blame?


ETA2: I'm not trying to get you to CHANGE what you're doing; I'm trying to get you to SEE how you're coming across. That's the blind spot. What you decide to do from there is your choice.
 

Fidelia

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MBTI Type
INFJ
I don't think people are saying that Peacebaby cannot participate. Peacebaby is the one that is stating that she is unhappy with the interactions or hurt by them. I have tried talking privately, confronting directly, and not engaging over a period of several years. None of those are acceptable solutions for her. Her way isn't acceptable for me. Therefore, I think we aren't on similar enough ground to proceed. However, that isn't necessarily the case for her with other people, and so of course she is more than welcome to interact with anyone she wishes to.

It's just that when she is saying that she dislikes the outcome of an exchange and other people offer solutions for what might work better to get a different outcome, she can either choose to engage in that way, or be alright with however the exchange proceeds doing it the way she has been. It might be true that she is making too many adjustments. In that case, it seems only sensible that at that point she may decide that she doesn't want to interact with them because it is not fair. However, that seems not to be the case. She continues interacting, but keeps saying that it is unfair that she is having to adjust so much.

If it were only a person or two where this was occurring, I would assume it was just an individual issue. However, this seems to be occurring with old members as well as new ones. It may be a blind spot on the INFJ's part, but seeing as it appears to be a somewhat universal blind spot, it puzzles me as to why she would want to interact with people who are so unwilling or unable to compromise or interact in a fair sort of way.

Anyway, I don't care to dictate who may or may not participate in any thread. I don't find myself feeling either hurt or angry over any of these posts. It's only when I am being addressed, or there is a request for me to do things differently that I feel I need to be upfront about where I stand - what things I can flex on and which things I can't, so other people know where they are at.

To me, interaction of any kind is a negotiation and I do habitually leave threads where I know my views/interaction style varies enough from other posters that it is not compatible. Some would view that as cowardly, others as considerate, others as misguided, and still others as one of many other acceptable options. I do not like conflict if it seemingly is not producing anything. Others are okay with it, and I see many examples of people who have waded in and either used a conflicting style or expressed very conflicting views to other posters in the thread. Sometimes it has been a great success and at other times it's been a disaster. Depending on the person themselves, they would respond to the reaction differently.

It just seems to me that if these posts are incurring real hurt and pain, from my vantage point, I think I wouldn't continue. By stating that, I guess I'm trying to search for a reason I may not have considered for why Peacebaby sees it as worth putting herself through. It could be that I've overlooked something that I shouldn't.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Yeah, I've been watching and reading this thread thinking it would help me communicate optimally with my INFP, but all I accomplish is getting confused and eventually a scary feeling happens wherein I start to think I'm doomed. Time to exit and just keep doing what I'm doing and 'feel' my own way, I suppose.

I do wish things could get settled here though. I may not get why, but I DO recognize when something is important to someone else, and it clearly is. It's one of those situations where I can't help but wonder if all of this would get settled faster and more thoroughly if everyone were in person and in a room or two together. Like the 'human' aspect is missing here; something so important, maybe, considering the source? I dunno. *shrug* Just seems that so much caring and need to understand should get along better.

In general, I think you would probably wind up regretting a decision that was made purely on the basis of information you've gotten from this thread, unless it only concerned the members who've posted.

The discrepancies here would probably resolve or change if we all met and discussed matters, but even in that environment, we would eventually run into issues with stubbornness. Egos are invested in typology unless you've abstracted it to death, but at that point, people lose interest because it no longer really relate to "self-discovery", so much as it would relate to a seemingly inconsequential playground of theory.

-------------

Concerning Ne vs Ni and the potential lack of understanding between INFPs and INFJs - an example to illustrate my point about how Ne requires more externally based information than Ni: I know an Ni dom who regularly plays guessing games with me, and during our playful conversations in which we inquire each other about our respective personal lives, a sharp difference between our psychological makeup becomes apparent.

I ask him questions, relay information, and probe indirectly by taking guesses. I try to use deduction to whittle away possibilities, but then more possibilities could be inferred from the remaining possibilities. While I often attempt to deduce, my deductions frequently seem to lead further and further away from the truth - especially if he slowly piecemeals information without being straightforward. You could say, from a cynical but not inaccurate POV, that I dig my own grave - in part because I want information from an objectively verifiable source, but also in part because I refuse to just settle on a conclusion. More often than not, I actually stumble on the truth, but keep walking because I'm seeking a personal connection more than information. I think this is directly related to Ne, seeing as Ne probes for information by informing in turn, and always requires a bit of empirical evidence before judgments find closure.

On the other hand, my friend contemplates without attempting to catalyze responses from me. He mulls what he has around and infers what he wants. Often, his conclusions, while accurate, are vague and would better be taken with a grain of salt; however, seeing as I, as an Ne user, expect there to be some sort of verifiable remnant of information, I can fall victim to the Forer effect, taking things more personally than need be. If he and I were not on good terms, I could easily misinterpret his statements as indirect insults, and assume that he gaslights me during these games. But we appreciate our differences and recognize, through mutual respect, that we're equally responsible for what comes of our interactions.
 

Winds of Thor

New member
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
1,842
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Yeah, when personal values are your first priority, and you're at odds with someone, handling the situation can become twisted in its deliberation.

Yeah, seems like delusion stemming from pride or something.

There are so many details and descriptions being attempted and you people need to know that spelling everything out has its limits.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
I'd like to add that, as someone who's been doorslammed by an INFJ, those of you who interacted with INFJs who engaged in open conflict with you prior to a doorslamming - you may want to be grateful that the INFJ actually gave you direct reason to believe they wanted to shut you out. I've been inexplicably ignored and hung out to dry in the past, and when that happens, the emotional pain incurred is on par with physical pain.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
If it were only a person or two where this was occurring, I would assume it was just an individual issue. However, this seems to be occurring with old members as well as new ones.

And you've polled the whole forum? Or are you extrapolating from a few vocal people, as well as from your own feelings in the matter?


I have tried talking privately, confronting directly, and not engaging over a period of several years.

And that was about you, not other posters for whom you might have been speaking? You directly told her to please not engage with you? And after telling her that, you've done nothing to inadvertently encourage her to respond or reply, like quote, mention, or talk about her directly or indirectly?
 
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