[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[PeaceBaby]

I’ve been thinking about this and I think it’s worth mentioning that- at least for me- it doesn’t even really do justice to how disorienting this is to call it a distorted image in a mirror ... etc

I love all of this that you've shared, I accept it and I've read it and reflected on it many times. My question to you remains: what are you going to DO about it?

Just like I have to go out in the world, open my mind to Pe, let all the incoming stuff of the world come in at full tilt no matter how it buffets my realm, you are wired to a similar task. You are supposed to go out into the world, use Fe, let the judging function do what it's supposed to do which is mediate that entire process you've outlined above. You're right I have a more solid core, and that's an advantage. But in the outer world I am jello and that's a disadvantage. My point is that it balances out. All of us have an ability to make conscious choices in balance to hard-wired tendencies.

If someone told you you had one arm longer than the other, you're supposed to use your extraverted judging function in service of this evaluation. The only reason you entertain it is because you're an introverted perceiver, as I realize that's how the judgement got into you in the first place. But to me, your function is not intended to work in isolation - you are wired to get out there, say, "That's not right, is that right?" get more judgements and bounce that shit around. Hopefully your world is populated with at least a partial cross-section of reasonable people who will help you gain a better accuracy in the reflection. But you're not supposed to just stick to your favored crew. I think it works best when you have the trusted few but still bounce things around in the general population. (eta3: No, maybe not. The trusted few could still override the general population. What is the solution, aside from having the best trusted few possible?)

I've noted a pattern over time with INFJ's really lamenting having Fe in their functional stack. I can really appreciate the challenges of that now, having had the humbling opportunities to hear about what it's like firsthand here on the forum. Yet it IS your helper, and I know you feel like it gets you in trouble all the time, but you're supposed to use it. The only person I've seen actually using it to improve the reflection of late is [MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]. She's using it to dig amongst a larger community of people and ask questions and let MORE reflections in to inform her introverted perceiving. Let it push your inner world around such that you speak OUT to find the balance again. In my mind, it leads to more robust judgements. I am aware that I MUST let Pe in, no matter how overwhelming that can be or how ineffective I feel as an agent in the outer world or how much I don't want to change my mind sometimes. You are conscious of Je - you must let Je OUT.

Sorry if that sounds lectury - I am pressed for time this morning and communicating the message feels urgent, like I really want to share it so less time to refine.

I feel like I am getting closer and closer to the impasse between our types. It may indeed be that like two opposing poles on a magnet, we will never get to actually touch. But I must see how close we can get.

eta: I've realized that I'm powerless / whiny about the perceiving world and you are interestingly powerless / whiny about the judging world. Fascinating. I need to throw my weight around in the perceiving realm, and you in the judging realm. Will ponder more.

eta2: I have to let perceptions in and you have to let judgements in? But casual judgements annoy me? And personal criticisms hurt me? And casual perceptions are annoying? And personal perceptions are hurtful? sorry, we appear doomed at this moment. must process more.

 

[PeaceBaby]

ok, I was only going to come on here and share my early morning insight. The post above was a bit of a sidetrack and lots of what's in this thread seems to derail from doorslamming but somehow it doesn't. I feel like we still need to dig.

Maybe this is a bit like Ni - I went to bed thinking of nothing, then even before my eyes were fully open this morning this whole example / post was crafted in my mind. If I could at that moment have plugged some kind of cable to my brain and put the thoughts right on paper it would have been perfection. Instead now we have to see how well I can get this out.

This post is in reference to Ji informing Pe (whoops I think I mean Pe informing Ji. Let me think on that but meanwhile, continue.) A while back I made a thread here. (It's kind of nice to have enough history here to point to stuff I can recall or stuff I've done in the past.)

Now, it's not a long thread and you don't have to read the whole thing although it will be illustrative, but at least get the gist of the direction it immediately goes - it goes into a.) a discussion of me being a judgey busy-body or b.) that people who make pretty cookies aren't necessarily immature.

Neither were the point.

My point in this doorslamming thread is to outline that my inner judgement, which I felt was too narrow in scope, pushed me into the outside realm to get more information. I was pointing in a direction that seemed kind of out of balance, so I needed more data to a.) explore why I was picking up on this negative feeling and b.) rebalance inner judgement. To the Pi people I'm imagining that it looks like I'm doing some perceptual back-pedaling by mid-thread!

Yet, in this situation, I had been unconsciously taking in 5 YEARS worth of perceiving data and found myself forming a judgement about the concept of perpetual adolescence, not about whether or not she was a vapid hair-ball. Any judgement on HER was irrelevant to the issue I wanted to explore. More perceiving data undoubtedly went into forming the concept... But I felt it narratively important to outline the WHY of I wanted to dig deeper, and Ji people felt I wasn't fairly taking in perceptual data and Je people felt I was being bitchy and perhaps even jealous. Essentially, that WHY was irrelevant to discussing what I wanted to discuss and was a red herring. But sometimes I have to outline the path of how I got to where I am to figure out where we go next.

I simply pushed a judgement that felt interesting to explore into the outer world to regain balance and get more data. It blew up some. But does that help [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] explain how Ji initiates the conscious opening of fresh perceptual space?

eta: was it that Ji people felt I was judging them, and Je people were judging me? *thinks*

 

[PeaceBaby]

The answer is all going to boil down to communication and trust.

 

[March]

Re: what we're going to DO about it (great question, by the way, [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION])
[MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION], I'm still working on an answer to your question, but maybe there's some stuff in here that gives some clues. I'll still get back to you later.

I think a lot of what we're doing about it is was described in this thread along the way. And I think it's the right way to go, in general and with a little dose of applied wisdom, even though it might strike other types as horrifically bad ideas.

NiFe almost automatically gives certain, trusted people a central venous line into our bloodstreams. Their judgements go right into our hearts as perceptions. Great if you can trust those people to only use that line for your benefit and can accurately perceive the type and dose of medicine that's needed.

If you have people who misjudge the type or medicine you need (give you personal judgements instead of impersonal conclusions) or the dose you can take (give you buckets when you need drops), that needs to be balanced out. If people put psychotropic drugs in your IV just because it'd make you easier to handle, that needs to be balanced out.

So, Fe should:
- Surround itself with a bunch of different trusted people, so accidental misuses of the IV can be counteracted with doses of beneficial stuff or just diluted with status quo. (Because even if someone's absolutely right with their judgement that you've been doing life all wrong up until now, that doesn't mean you have to burn all your bridges RIGHT NOW to remedy that failure.) I don't think this needs to be a group of people you actually know - sane discussions on the internet work really well for me as a recalibrating factor. Having friends to call in an emergency is, of course, a great boon. But when I'm having a personal existential crisis I'm LEAST likely to call friends (because from experience I know people don't know what to DO with me when I'm in a state like that, whereas I know pretty well what to do if I just get the time and privacy to do it). This is why I take control of my outer world once again and set up regular dates with my trusted peeps (weekly mastermind group calls, bi-weekly dates with most of my good friends if I can manage, bi-weekly singing lesson, try to do daily journaling because when push comes to shove I can be a trusted person to myself too), so I get regular infusions of people willing to see the best of me AND willing to tell me where I'm going off course. And at times when I'm not falling apart. I need them to shore up my foundations, so when an earthquake hits I can straighten the paintings and coax the cats out of hiding myself and don't need them to rescue me.

- Be open to other, less personal perspectives to provide an accurate background image. Yes, your SO may have called you a terrifying bitch who can't be reasoned with, but if your colleagues, extended family and neighbours all call you reasonably balanced and open to criticism, better trust the people who don't have strong emotional triggers around your behavious AND lack an ulterior motive for trying to get you to fall in line. Read books that outline the kind of society/community you want to be in - books don't have a personal perspective at stake, and will tell you the same thing regardless of how they feel. Maybe you have the kind of SO who goes for the jugular in a fight but doesn't actually want to kill you, and maybe part of you can remember that fact and attempt to disbelieve the hardcore painful judgements until the emotionally charged situation passes, and then ask for another judgement that's hopefully more in line with their long-term view. Practice suspension of belief.

- Try to educate people who go for the jugular that our jugulars are actually quite close to the surface and they don't need to get out the chain saw. Scalpels are plenty effective, thank you very much! Encourage them to rant to friends if they have to blow off steam before they come to you with their issues. Try to be open to their MOs too, and work out a manner of fighting/arguing that doesn't break anyone.

- Clamp down on the influence some people have over us. 'Downgrade them a tier,' as Z Buck said. If it turns out that people are harmful influences, move them away to where things aren't harmful. Doesn't have anything to do with intent, just effect. Wine is beneficial and fun in small quantities, but if you're take in too much at a time, it starts to taste foul, gives you headaches and bad social consequences and liver damage, or can even get into your lungs and drown you. Doesn't change the fact that wine is a beloved and beneficial thing in general. Try to be subtle about this downgrading and diluting, but if there's no other choice, doorslamming/total sobriety isn't out of the question.

- What helps for me is to make a summary of who 'I' am - my values, my goals, my symbols, my meaningful memories and images, my strengths and my weaknesses, and why I can be a lovable person despite not being immune to weaknesses - and when someone dumps a bucket of ice-cold incongruent judgement on me I can warm up with a warm shower with a dose of 'me' and then look at that bucket of judgement from a more centered perspective. Maybe there's a baby in all that icewater, and maybe there isn't, but I can't go rescuing babies if I'm drowning and freezing myself.

So yeah, trust and communication. Communication about the effect people have on me and the effect I have on people. Trust that the people I love aren't out to get me, even though my entire brain might be screaming 'you did X knowing it would send me into an existential crisis, so what do you MEAN that triggering an existential crisis wasn't your goal? If something is a known side-effect of a strategy, it's either the goal or negligible collateral damage, and either interpretation tells me a lot about you!'. But also trust that I'm pretty OK as I am, that I definitely need to be open to other people's judgements but that 80% of who I am is fine as it is and that I get to change things because I decide I want them changed, not because someone else mentions changing as a possibility.

 

[the state i am in]

I very much agree and the distinction is important.

This is so interesting. It would be great if you expanded on it.

nfps seem to understand qualitative shifts in experience. they can lead people through a path very well. they understand what places are like qualitatively, as tunnels for experience. they like to connect these tunnels, to understand how the embodied, peopled experiences of reality fit together. so adds a representative demographics quality to it. they can kind of aggregate experiences.

Exactly. You explain this so well. I think you're right in that this is moving away from the organic response, towards a conscious and deliberate method. I respect the Fi insight, but it isn't enough on it's own; it must be informed, shaped, ordered and tested.

thanks, i'll try to write some redescriptions of some of these things, but it's really difficult without inventing a kind of abstract vocabulary to discuss them. i can't locate the cognitive processes in concrete objects in behavior as much as i can find ways of illustrating how i think the process might look metaphorically.

Yes I wondered about equivalents. So do you mean Ni tries on predictions as 'potential Perceptions'? Can you further explain how this works? And how does Se play into this?

with our bodies. we feel the gesture flowing through us, and that's how we evaluate intention. we really rely on the language of emotion. the meaning of it as an idea, a representation of something. it's through the Fe, through iterating gestures, that we try on what feels right to us. Se plays a role in terms of being able to nonjudgmentally assess how things, how the grammar of our intention, lands. what is is able to do. how it affects and effects. how the story changes. it's the ability to see that as a consequence as it is rather than in terms of a range of distance away from what was desired. Je is like a thermostat, a prediction of how to organize the symmetry of an idea and aim for an ideal state. it's a set of structures, a grammar, categorical rules, that allows us to embed scales within scales, which creates a kind of enduring, recurring centerline through which we can judge how far off something is from ideal.

There's a lot for me to process in this. I have no desire to deflate someone's natural manner of vibing on a situation/idea; I don't like to break their flow without good reason. I struggle to understand that expectation, because expectations are such a no-no for me. I feel that perhaps if I understood it better I wouldn't feel offended by it, but it's hard for me to grasp it even as you guys explain it - even as I know the value of it in theory. I do think there's a way forward with it, like you say. I've noticed my INTJ friend has found ways to better achieve a Ni slant on a conversation without it feeling restrictive and directive. I can remember a conversation he and I and his ENFP sister had that was very interesting and very successful in this regard. He guided the discussion, but left it to me to process the factors on my own and come to my own conclusion (which I very much appreciated). I think it may have been partly due to a development in my own willingness to let go of the reins and let him be a little perceptual directive, as well as keep listening past the time I think anything of significance is left to say. It was one of those few times when I truly felt (momentarily at least) I internally grasped Ni and was fascinated to see it's insights and feel it's effects. Still, it's mysteries elude me, and that is perhaps the problem. I need to internalise the thought process of the other person to be able to fully appreciate what they're saying. With Ni I'm just not fully there yet - and without the meaning behind the words, I can't feel the affect.

when i say expectations, i don't mean simply what we use to withhold acceptance from others. i mean how we generalize and make reasonable guesses. it's in part the result of guessing how to organize a frame for things, how to create a model that is in itself generative. Ni is always integrating models with other models. that's how we test reality. that's how we pull the fabric taut and sense it's strength. it's just interstitial tissue after interstitial tissue. that's why it's so metaphysical, so between defined layers rather than existing solely on them as a single plane. while p types recognize that the planes are imaginary and live in a more 3-dimensional space, Ni uses an awareness of state snapshots to connect the inherent structures of ideas that are invisible, that are the backdrop of what supports what we can observe. the network of conditionals.

I'm glad you recognise this. It's such a hard thing to get across. How can you tell people, "I'm saying these things, but they don't hold any meaning for me personally. It's part of a process that is more important" or, "this view doesn't reflect the whole of my thoughts/views. There are many positions I hold that are in completely contrast to this attitude, but they are not incongruent with it". It just sounds crazy, convoluted, and potentially, hypocritical or disingenuous.

A while back I participated in a thread discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and got into a lot of trouble in this regard. For the most part I was attempting to occupy a relatively neutral position but that meant pushing back and offering the opposing perspective when people said something that strayed too far from the middle. Then I get accused of being biased towards the other side and being unwilling to listen, which was not the case at all. I felt like I was the most unbiased person there and was listening twice as hard as everyone else. It's just important to me that people made decisions based on the complex myriad of factors or else I struggled to accept them. Like what [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] was getting at, I have to accept that their evaluative process is fair and considered before I can listen to their conclusion. And if I hear them saying something that conveys ignorance of perceptual data, I have to push back - even if I agree with them. It's a little silly when you look at it like that.

i mean, a big part of that is the e5 in us, right? assuring information quality?

it's a different method tho, because for us it's not about the story as much when generating context as it's about the conditionals. i mean this in the sense that we like to focus on outlining the constraints, paying a great deal of attention to what is disclosed within the space of those constraints. that's how we zero in on the seed that we are looking for, reverse engineering the meaning of the meanings. that can be frustrating for someone who feels how the motions relate more, how the trajectories define a flow that is right now changing, rather than signifying what the beginning must have been.

 

[the state i am in]

ok, I was only going to come on here and share my early morning insight. The post above was a bit of a sidetrack and lots of what's in this thread seems to derail from doorslamming but somehow it doesn't. I feel like we still need to dig.

Maybe this is a bit like Ni - I went to bed thinking of nothing, then even before my eyes were fully open this morning this whole example / post was crafted in my mind. If I could at that moment have plugged some kind of cable to my brain and put the thoughts right on paper it would have been perfection. Instead now we have to see how well I can get this out.

This post is in reference to Ji informing Pe (whoops I think I mean Pe informing Ji. Let me think on that but meanwhile, continue.) A while back I made a thread here. (It's kind of nice to have enough history here to point to stuff I can recall or stuff I've done in the past.)

Now, it's not a long thread and you don't have to read the whole thing although it will be illustrative, but at least get the gist of the direction it immediately goes - it goes into a.) a discussion of me being a judgey busy-body or b.) that people who make pretty cookies aren't necessarily immature.

Neither were the point.

My point in this doorslamming thread is to outline that my inner judgement, which I felt was too narrow in scope, pushed me into the outside realm to get more information. I was pointing in a direction that seemed kind of out of balance, so I needed more data to a.) explore why I was picking up on this negative feeling and b.) rebalance inner judgement. To the Pi people I'm imagining that it looks like I'm doing some perceptual back-pedaling by mid-thread!

Yet, in this situation, I had been unconsciously taking in 5 YEARS worth of perceiving data and found myself forming a judgement about the concept of perpetual adolescence, not about whether or not she was a vapid hair-ball. Any judgement on HER was irrelevant to the issue I wanted to explore. More perceiving data undoubtedly went into forming the concept... But I felt it narratively important to outline the WHY of I wanted to dig deeper, and Ji people felt I wasn't fairly taking in perceptual data and Je people felt I was being bitchy and perhaps even jealous. Essentially, that WHY was irrelevant to discussing what I wanted to discuss and was a red herring. But sometimes I have to outline the path of how I got to where I am to figure out where we go next.

I simply pushed a judgement that felt interesting to explore into the outer world to regain balance and get more data. It blew up some. But does that help [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION] explain how Ji initiates the conscious opening of fresh perceptual space?

eta: was it that Ji people felt I was judging them, and Je people were judging me? *thinks*

well, first and foremost, people don't like to feel like they are simply "outer world data." if you are asking for their experience to help you balance your ability to aggregate experience into a generalizable one, then it can be tricky if you're not willing to wait for them to finish answering in their own terms. they're giving you something. i know i've, in my impatience, done this many times. it is tricky with infp-infj sometimes, because it can be hard to translate, and the more vulnerable, the less willing to put things on record in terms and forms and types of structures that are outside your comfort zone.

second, pe isn't just outer world data. it's also the ability to observe yourself. sometimes this is a more productive way of working on a 5-year backlogged issue that has arisen for you. this is partly where the other side, the j side, can help. it can offer lenses to examine your own experience, and then allow those perspectives to dissolve into an awareness of what happened for you. if you are still having feelings about it, you can still examine those as they are. the present is always a way into yourself, because you're always carrying around shit that habituates your response. furthermore, to ask others to table your judginess with respect to it, to feel either inculcated in your condemnation or potentially offended if they take it personally, is just awkward. that's the joy of working with anger in relationship. just that extra edgy, sharpness flying around. cut or be cut. the critical perspective e1 and its neighbors (e4 and e7) bring often purport a kind of rightness vs wrongness thing, like that's the work that's being set out to be done. decide how exactly this is wrong and how this is wrong. it's difficult not to do it. it's difficult to express more directly what our needs are and to even pay enough attention to ourselves to take ownership of that, and to take ownership in a way that the responsibility to meet them primarily lies with us rather than with what we expect others to provide for us. in this situation, and this is a generalization, we need a way to feel like we are not being judged. hell, the first response in the thread, fid, was all that needed to be said. then the fact that much of this is not type specific, without really hearing an acknowledgement of that, is frustrating. to discuss how Fe might close off differently than Fi closes off when withdrawing, that's fair and interesting. but it's about a pejorative name for a behavior that people associate only with this type. i even tried to explain that Fe types can be a bit more out of water trying to clean up relationship messes when it comes to DISCERNING their own needs. i'd think 9s would be able to empathize with some of that experience.

third, you seem like a hard worker who is willing to contribute more than your fair share. that drives a lot of good activity on the message-board, and i know that i am not usually willing to follow through to that degree. i can appreciate that, but i also feel frustrated, where i, in some sense, and this is somewhat bizarre, partly out of friendship and partly out of simply similarity, feel defensive on behalf of z in your last post. when i identify, i read it feeling that i am being condemned, that i am being judged, that i can just smell your assumption that i am wrong. you might feel the same way here. there's not really that much attachment, like in real life, asking us (the sides of the debate and the specific conflicts), to work it out, to stay whole. to me, that's a time when the devil's advocate thing feels more dug in than an offering. even if it's prefaced with an acknowledgment of personal fallibility in somewhat corresponding ways. maybe that's a problem of not focusing on what we actually need ourselves. for me to offer vulnerability, i need to feel supported. it's really that simple. if i am being reduced to an obstacle for a process, without really even identifying with the intention behind it and connecting to an attitude i trust, it just ain't gonna happen. unless i'm in a really, really good place, and i feel like i can connect to my own needs enough to center myself, stay focused on what i can control, and not allow others perceptions and attitudes to overtake me, to inform me, yes, but not to be my only anchor in reality. still, to have the focus on me be this without recognizing the corresponding process in yourself and empathizing with what individuation is like (a slow, gradual process of recognizing the limitations in our inherent specialization), will feel unfair to me. i won't like the presuppositions i feel underneath the surface, and i won't really want to offer up as much of myself.

fourth, i said it before, but a lot of this shit is e4. the first page kind of characterizes it. look how much shame is there. look at the post about away, toward, against. look at fid's. theoretically, that seems like a needed foundation to see it clearly. or we're not really grounded in anything other than just claiming anyone who abruptly cuts ties must be an infj. it just doesn't really make sense. i've cut ties, largely out of shame issues. out of an inability to feel open to connecting with others who i wouldn't feel would understand or appreciate me. i gave up on that, and i recognize that part of that was a need from myself to just withdraw during a phase of being "in-shaming." that's it. now i have a bit better social skills to be able to articulate how my actions reflect my needs, so there is not as much overt and implicit blame on others for my needs not being met and for "causing" my actions.

 

[Eilonwy]

third, you seem like a hard worker who is willing to contribute more than your fair share.

This part of what you said really struck me. I think it's unfair in its implications. Who determines what fair share is? I don't see @PeaceBaby's name on the Top Poster list. For the amount of time she's been on this forum, her post count isn't exorbitant. Or if we're only talking contributions to certain discussions, I didn't realize that there was a limit to how much any one poster could contribute.

I do realize that you weren't saying outright that she needs to limit her posting, but there is an underlying implication that colors other people's perceptions. You couched in it nice terms, such as "drives a lot of good activity", but the underlying negative message comes through loud and clear, at least to me.

Personally, I don't 'hear' her posts the way some others have indicated that they do. When I started on this forum, I didn't understand her posts, and I thought what she had to say was confusing because it seemed to me that we were often saying the same thing, and yet there still seemed to be some disconnect and miscommunication. I even agreed with other INFJs in their assessments of her posts. But I kept reading her posts and eventually I started to see some of the things I had missed before. And I think she has some valid and valuable points.

 

[Werebudgie]

I’ve been thinking about this and I think it’s worth mentioning that- at least for me- it doesn’t even really do justice to how disorienting this is to call it a distorted image in a mirror (though still, I loved Seymour's post). Because at least if I’m looking in a mirror and that mirror is telling me one arm is two feet longer than another- I can always look down and directly check my arms. There's no immediate relief with Ni- it can take forever to make sense of, sometimes years. The whole reason I’m so careful about whose judgment I begin to take in without much filtering in the first place is because it’s so difficult for me to immediately do this sort of direct check. A mirror can tell me that one arm is longer than another, and silent alarms will go off that something isn’t correct- and it can take forever to figure out if it's my own perception or if it's the other person

I think the time and energy issue is really important as part of the dynamic! At least it is for me. I'm glad you brought it up in this way.

And for me, (to get more fine-grained about it in my case), it's not just about Ni. It's Fe-aux assigning a high legitimacy to incoming judgements, which then sit inside of me as if they're valid by default, kicking off deep and ruthless questioning of whatever previous information or knowledge it challenges. In that process, I begin to double-stream: my organic perception is always there somewhere, but in that ruthless questioning, I also see myself as Other, basically seeing myself through alien/external eyes.

If the judgement is wrong, it will begin to vibrate inside me in ways that feel viscerally terrible (Ni and Ni-Se perception) - but this can take weeks, months, even years to get my attention. Basically like an infection building until it's big enough that I can really feel it. At that point Ti has to do the work of painstaking analysis of what's not right about that judgement in relation to my Ni perception, existing data etc etc.

This really does take a HUGE amount of energy, and it can turn out to be deeply unnecessary waste of energy. And too, that initial infection can do harm to me, weaken me in certain ways. So I, too, need to be careful whose judgement I take in without ... well, I wouldn't call it filtering in my case, for me it's more like categories/roles - what is this person's relationship to/with me?

And all of this sucks, because at the most basic level, I'm inclined toward radically open trust as a default. So I do have to expend some energy tracking these roles/relationships and trying to keep up appropriate boundaries. But it's generally far less energy to do that than taking that external judgement deeply into myself from someone or a context that will end up draining my energy as described above.

 

[the state i am in]

This part of what you said really struck me. I think it's unfair in its implications. Who determines what fair share is? I don't see @PeaceBaby's name on the Top Poster list. For the amount of time she's been on this forum, her post count isn't exorbitant. Or if we're only talking contributions to certain discussions, I didn't realize that there was a limit to how much any one poster could contribute.

I do realize that you weren't saying outright that she needs to limit her posting, but there is an underlying implication that colors other people's perceptions. You couched in it nice terms, such as "drives a lot of good activity", but the underlying negative message comes through loud and clear, at least to me.

Personally, I don't 'hear' her posts the way some others have indicated that they do. When I started on this forum, I didn't understand her posts, and I thought what she had to say was confusing because it seemed to me that we were often saying the same thing, and yet there still seemed to be some disconnect and miscommunication. I even agreed with other INFJs in their assessments of her posts. But I kept reading her posts and eventually I started to see some of the things I had missed before. And I think she has some valid and valuable points.

i meant that she seems to go above and beyond. i think that consistency helps drive the forum for people like me who are more scattered and intermittent. it helps keep the conversation rolling.

i agree with your assessment as well. i've had a lot of positive interactions. i'm just trying to articulate why the approach in this thread doesn't meet my needs, especially in circumstances like this (and i'm trying to define what this category of circumstances is for me). overall, i feel like we've tinkered with type theory in ways that were enjoyable to me. hell, i think we've shared many reps over the years too.

 

[Werebudgie]

If someone told you you had one arm longer than the other, you're supposed to use your extraverted judging function in service of this evaluation. The only reason you entertain it is because you're an introverted perceiver, as I realize that's how the judgement got into you in the first place. But to me, your function is not intended to work in isolation - you are wired to get out there, say, "That's not right, is that right?" get more judgements and bounce that shit around. Hopefully your world is populated with at least a partial cross-section of reasonable people who will help you gain a better accuracy in the reflection. But you're not supposed to just stick to your favored crew. I think it works best when you have the trusted few but still bounce things around in the general population. (eta3: No, maybe not. The trusted few could still override the general population. What is the solution, aside from having the best trusted few possible?)

This assumes that external value material is coming from a well and centered place. In a cultural environment in which certain layers of reality are erased or trivialized - meaning, in what I would call a "sick" cultural environment - Fe becomes a liability for me because there is so SO much distortion and damage and very little hardcore accountability to reality outside of human-created narratives. That for me is one often missing piece when it comes to Fe: the external cultural environment.

So for example, a certain way of living (cultural system's ways of life) has had impacts on interconnected planet-wide systems, now more obviously creating extreme weather conditions dangerous to human survival. This for me is like the planet's immune system response to a system that has disregarded the need to live responsibly within existing ecosystems (not an individual level issue, a system level issue). I can say that my Ni-Se perception actually felt at least one of the final tipping points, one point of no return with this situation in the physical world around me in Ni-Se perception. (That was freaking intense to feel. But I digress.)

My Ni-Se perception is often outside of what the cultural system I'm embedded in allows as real, valid, legitimate perception of reality. When there are elements that seem to connect, they are often skewed by a quarter or half note, just enough to distort and confuse.

And while the issue is in fact a sick system, that system by its nature yields lots and lots of damage to individuals: coping mechanisms, emotional narratives of pain, etc etc. And all that damage, all the crap from that damage, so easily informs those external judgements that my Fe-aux initially assigns a high legitimacy.

This for me is why I fit this pattern:

I've noted a pattern over time with INFJ's really lamenting having Fe in their functional stack. I can really appreciate the challenges of that now, having had the humbling opportunities to hear about what it's like firsthand here on the forum.

And this is why this kind of statement is missing part of the situation, in my view:

Yet it IS your helper, and I know you feel like it gets you in trouble all the time, but you're supposed to use it.

Fe-aux served a very clear and specific purpose for me: it allowed me to assimilate into a cultural system that was profoundly, painfully alien to me. This assimilation began consciously for me when I was in my early/mid teens. I assimilated well enough to function well enough and to "pass" as normal enough when my organic perception is very very different from how I am supposed to perceive in this system.

So for the first half of my adult life so far, it was developing Fe-aux, learning to assimilate into a system and context that mad every little organic sense to me, and the development of Ti as a counter to the harm that Fe-aux can do in me.

And now my pendulum is swinging in the other direction: I need to return to Ni-Se perception and reduce the prominence of Fe-Ti dynamics in my internal processing systems. This trajectory began about a decade ago and is still unfolding. Yes, it takes a long time.

The only person I've seen actually using it to improve the reflection of late is [MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION]. She's using it to dig amongst a larger community of people and ask questions and let MORE reflections in to inform her introverted perceiving. Let it push your inner world around such that you speak OUT to find the balance again. In my mind, it leads to more robust judgements. I am aware that I MUST let Pe in, no matter how overwhelming that can be or how ineffective I feel as an agent in the outer world or how much I don't want to change my mind sometimes. You are conscious of Je - you must let Je OUT.

See, it's this kind of unsolicited advice that (at this point in my life) gets me irritated with Ji-doms. In this case: Choosing one INFJ as your poster child for what INFJs should do? No. We're each moving in our own trajectory, there are reasons why you see the pattern of lamenting Fe aux that you see, and in my view, you really don't know what's best for all or even most of us - you really truly do not.

And if I didn't have boundaries up, if I was in a more Fe-heavy place (say, ten years ago), I would have to waste time and energy taking in your directives here as default valid and legitimate and having to work painstakingly through why that is harmful to me. Fortunately for me, I've had enough conscious deeply data-grounded struggle (Ti is very useful) around this stuff for the last decade that I have appropriate boundaries up to avoid taking this directive in as useful judgement truth.

Sorry if that sounds lectury - I am pressed for time this morning and communicating the message feels urgent, like I really want to share it so less time to refine.

I suggest you spend more time trying to understand better and less time trying to give INFJs some supposedly urgent message about what we should do.

I feel like I am getting closer and closer to the impasse between our types. It may indeed be that like two opposing poles on a magnet, we will never get to actually touch. But I must see how close we can get.

If my response is any indication, yes you are right on the lip of the impasse if not over the line.

 

[PeaceBaby]

And now my pendulum is swinging in the other direction: I need to return to Ni-Se perception and reduce the prominence of Fe-Ti dynamics in my internal processing systems. This trajectory began about a decade ago and is still unfolding. Yes, it takes a long time.

Thanks for your whole post. It was quite eloquent and opened me to your world. I appreciated it. Your self-journey sounds remarkable.

See, it's this kind of unsolicited advice that (at this point in my life) gets me irritated with Ji-doms.

Here is what I know - I've tried to live in my world through Fi - Te alone. Screw all the rest of the functions. It didn't work.

You are allowed to be critical of my extrapolation, and you're right, I'm not offering all of the other supporting evidence I have to back up that advice, and it seems like I offer nothing but my own opinion and am not proving it with any perceptual data. So you're right to question it. And yes, everyone is on an individual journey. Of course, everyone's trajectory is unique.

I suggest you spend more time trying to understand better and less time trying to give INFJs some supposedly urgent message about what we should do.

I hear you - it's about credentials. Perhaps over time I'll be able to offer something more palatable.

eta: Hey you did Fe me! Very nice.

 

[PeaceBaby]

well, first and foremost, people don't like to feel like they are simply "outer world data." if you are asking for their experience to help you balance your ability to aggregate experience into a generalizable one, then it can be tricky if you're not willing to wait for them to finish answering in their own terms. they're giving you something. i know i've, in my impatience, done this many times. it is tricky with infp-infj sometimes, because it can be hard to translate, and the more vulnerable, the less willing to put things on record in terms and forms and types of structures that are outside your comfort zone.

second, pe isn't just outer world data. it's also the ability to observe yourself. sometimes this is a more productive way of working on a 5-year backlogged issue that has arisen for you. this is partly where the other side, the j side, can help. it can offer lenses to examine your own experience, and then allow those perspectives to dissolve into an awareness of what happened for you. if you are still having feelings about it, you can still examine those as they are. the present is always a way into yourself, because you're always carrying around shit that habituates your response. furthermore, to ask others to table your judginess with respect to it, to feel either inculcated in your condemnation or potentially offended if they take it personally, is just awkward. that's the joy of working with anger in relationship. just that extra edgy, sharpness flying around. cut or be cut. the critical perspective e1 and its neighbors (e4 and e7) bring often purport a kind of rightness vs wrongness thing, like that's the work that's being set out to be done. decide how exactly this is wrong and how this is wrong. it's difficult not to do it. it's difficult to express more directly what our needs are and to even pay enough attention to ourselves to take ownership of that, and to take ownership in a way that the responsibility to meet them primarily lies with us rather than with what we expect others to provide for us. in this situation, and this is a generalization, we need a way to feel like we are not being judged. hell, the first response in the thread, fid, was all that needed to be said. then the fact that much of this is not type specific, without really hearing an acknowledgement of that, is frustrating. to discuss how Fe might close off differently than Fi closes off when withdrawing, that's fair and interesting. but it's about a pejorative name for a behavior that people associate only with this type. i even tried to explain that Fe types can be a bit more out of water trying to clean up relationship messes when it comes to DISCERNING their own needs. i'd think 9s would be able to empathize with some of that experience.

third, you seem like a hard worker who is willing to contribute more than your fair share. that drives a lot of good activity on the message-board, and i know that i am not usually willing to follow through to that degree. i can appreciate that, but i also feel frustrated, where i, in some sense, and this is somewhat bizarre, partly out of friendship and partly out of simply similarity, feel defensive on behalf of z in your last post. when i identify, i read it feeling that i am being condemned, that i am being judged, that i can just smell your assumption that i am wrong. you might feel the same way here. there's not really that much attachment, like in real life, asking us (the sides of the debate and the specific conflicts), to work it out, to stay whole. to me, that's a time when the devil's advocate thing feels more dug in than an offering. even if it's prefaced with an acknowledgment of personal fallibility in somewhat corresponding ways. maybe that's a problem of not focusing on what we actually need ourselves. for me to offer vulnerability, i need to feel supported. it's really that simple. if i am being reduced to an obstacle for a process, without really even identifying with the intention behind it and connecting to an attitude i trust, it just ain't gonna happen. unless i'm in a really, really good place, and i feel like i can connect to my own needs enough to center myself, stay focused on what i can control, and not allow others perceptions and attitudes to overtake me, to inform me, yes, but not to be my only anchor in reality. still, to have the focus on me be this without recognizing the corresponding process in yourself and empathizing with what individuation is like (a slow, gradual process of recognizing the limitations in our inherent specialization), will feel unfair to me. i won't like the presuppositions i feel underneath the surface, and i won't really want to offer up as much of myself.

fourth, i said it before, but a lot of this shit is e4. the first page kind of characterizes it. look how much shame is there. look at the post about away, toward, against. look at fid's. theoretically, that seems like a needed foundation to see it clearly. or we're not really grounded in anything other than just claiming anyone who abruptly cuts ties must be an infj. it just doesn't really make sense. i've cut ties, largely out of shame issues. out of an inability to feel open to connecting with others who i wouldn't feel would understand or appreciate me. i gave up on that, and i recognize that part of that was a need from myself to just withdraw during a phase of being "in-shaming." that's it. now i have a bit better social skills to be able to articulate how my actions reflect my needs, so there is not as much overt and implicit blame on others for my needs not being met and for "causing" my actions.

I'm going to quote this whole thing for the awesomely ironic "perceptions" offered up.

Let's just take a look at what they are slyly inferring:

1.) That I don't know how to make an effective post soliciting opinions.
2.) That I don't "wait" for people to answer on their own terms because I am impatient, insensitive and ungrateful.
3.) That it is hard to do that because it's hard for you too, so *pats me on back of hand* I'll learn!
4.) That I don't have sufficient awareness of the outside world.
5.) That in the outside world, I should try to have a better awareness of myself because I'm tantamount to clueless.
6.) That I have a 5 year backlog of Pe data to work through because I lack awareness and don't do enough self-work.
7.) That pondering on perpetual adolescence is actually some kind of latent ISSUE for me, something that irks me.
8.) That this is where having a J around would REALLY REALLY help me see clearly. (Listen, I'm married 25 years to an ESTJ, it doesn't get more J than that!)
9.) That a J type would give me a better perspective of myself too because I don't see what I am missing. *pats hand again*
10.) To expect others to have to deal with the way I am wired, present information, etc is impolite.
11.) That somehow I am angry and have an anger issue.
12.) That somehow I am not taking ownership of my own needs and that's irresponsible.
13.) That for whatever reason as an e9 I am not as empathic to the doorslammer as you imagined I would be. (Since I have my own anger issues and all. And I do! I'm e9.)
14.) btw, saying someone is a hard worker is a kind of pejorative to say they're not intelligent but they work hard enough to make up for it.
15.) That my posts are decent enough to generate some activity on the forum so they do serve a purpose and that's good.

I could go on. But perhaps I've made my point?

You have just said to me "(INFJs) need a way to feel like we are not being judged". Yet I be seeing a WHOLE lot of judging in your post! Just like you perceive a satellite of judgements in mine!

Pot meet kettle much? I mean, really, let's laugh about it, because isn't it just so funny?

Anyways, thanks for your thoughts and feedback, I will do what I usually do with INFJ perceptions and ruminate on them endlessly trying to be a "better" INFP and try to jump through a million unspoken hoops to avoid triggering another avalanche of perception served up judgement-style.

Seriously, I know you don't mean them like that, so I happily give you the benefit of the doubt. But I could be upset about them if I chose to be...

eta: listen, why don't we just say INFPs suck in the outer world and INFJs suck in the inner world? Can we then call a truce?

eta2: the funny thing is, I do see what I am missing, it's not like there's not grains of truth up there - but since the J world reminds me of what I lack continually, since I was a child, it doesn't feel very invisible.

 

[Eilonwy]

See, it's this kind of unsolicited advice that (at this point in my life) gets me irritated with Ji-doms. In this case: Choosing one INFJ as your poster child for what INFJs should do? No. We're each moving in our own trajectory, there are reasons why you see the pattern of lamenting Fe aux that you see, and in my view, you really don't know what's best for all or even most of us - you really truly do not.

And yet, as that so-called poster child, I see INFJs telling INFPs what to do, also. So, I think the playing field is rather even. Tit for tat.

I've seen the same "poster child" type posts from INFJs, too. Praising those INFPs who bend the way we would like them to bend as far as communication style or agreeing with our assessments of ourselves. Perhaps we interpret our own actions differently than we interpret the same actions from other types, though. Just a thought.

 

[Werebudgie]

Thanks for your whole post. It was quite eloquent and opened me to your world. I appreciated it. Your self-journey sounds remarkable.

Glad to hear that you appreciated the post!

Here is what I know - I've tried to live in my world through Fi - Te alone. Screw all the rest of the functions. It didn't work.

Your experience is specific to you. Generalizing outward from your experience onto others, and especially onto someone(s) with different cognitive function stacks, isn't useful IMO.

As for me - this is a process. I think if this goes well, I'll end up strongly and joyfully centered in Ni-Se perception. With that centering, I think I'll be using Fe and Ti in different ways than I have in the past. I can already see glimmers of a different approach to my Fe-aux, a sort of reversal of its polarity, and have done a little bit of action from that space - it's interesting and promising so far (but very new). And I also need to figure out how to "feed" my Ti, give it something useful to do, because it's a very curious active part of me and won't ever go away. There's some semi-delicate stuff going on around that for me right now (feeding Ti curiosity) and I don't know where it will lead.

But using Fe as you suggest is not well for me. And Ni-Se perception needs to be at the core, the center, for me, in a very real way.

You are allowed to be critical of my extrapolation, and you're right, I'm not offering all of the other supporting evidence I have to back up that advice, and it seems like I offer nothing but my own opinion and am not proving it with any perceptual data. So you're right to question it.

Also, you're quite simply incorrect when it comes to me and what is happening for and well for me, in particular. That won't change with more supporting data from your Si database or Te deductive generalizations. Unless you can expand your understanding past where it is now, to allow for my lived experience and reality that doesn't fit into your existing model, you will continue to be incorrect when it comes to me on this particular topic.

I hear you - it's about credentials.

No, it's about accuracy and contextual, nuanced understanding of varied lived experience (outside your own experience, and outside whatever values, Si database, and/or logical model you're using). You are incorrect in the judgement-advice that you seem to be applying to all INFJs, when it comes to this INFJ (me).

I don't want you to prove anything with perceptual data. I want you to allow for perceptual data that doesn't fit into your current understanding, and expand your understanding accordingly.

Perhaps over time I'll be able to offer something more palatable.

Palatable? To me, that word implies a difference in presentation, not content (I can also hear the judgement behind that word, but don't want to get into that because don't want to put the Ti energy into something like that). Anyway, no, that's not what I'm seeking. I'd prefer to see if you can actually (and humbly) take in new information that doesn't fit with your current frameworks/arguments etc.

 

[Werebudgie]

And yet, as that so-called poster child, I see INFJs telling INFPs what to do, also. So, I think the playing field is rather even. Tit for tat.

I've seen the same "poster child" type posts from INFJs, too. Praising those INFPs who bend the way we would like them to bend as far as communication style or agreeing with our assessments of ourselves. Perhaps we interpret our own actions differently than we interpret the same actions from other types, though. Just a thought.

I think the whole public poster child approach generally isn't useful regardless of where it comes from (unless someone directly asks for that as a data point in a specific exchange).

Also: I don't know how broadly you're defining this pattern, but I also think there's a difference between thanking someone or praising their contribution in a "wow, that was really great/helpful/etc" kind of way on one hand, and saying "This specific person is how [type] SHOULD act/communicate etc" on the other.

eta: I realize that that that second point assumes that the first kind of statement is ("wow, that was really great/helpful/etc") is literally honest and not some passive-aggressive manipulative tactic in some dysfunctional dynamic. I haven't been here long enough to know what's up with that in these discussions. I can say that if I say "that was helpful" or "that was accurate" etc, that's quite literally what I'm saying. Hope this makes sense.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I don't want you to prove anything with perceptual data. I want you to allow for perceptual data that doesn't fit into your current understanding, and expand your understanding accordingly.

You don't know mine, I don't know yours. We're even then, I guess.

This is tantamount to the following:

You first. No you. No, after you! I couldn't, you go first. Age before beauty! Beauty was a horse ... Well, please allow me the favor of going after you ... and on we go!

Anyway, I don't want to argue, you stepped into a post with a long history behind it, of course you can't appreciate fully why I said what I did.

Would you like to reset and start again between us?

 

[Eilonwy]

I think the whole public poster child approach isn't useful regardless of where it comes from (unless someone directly asks for that as a data point in a specific exchange).

Also: I don't know how broadly you're defining this pattern, but I also think there's a difference between thanking someone or praising their contribution in a "wow, that was really great/helpful/etc" kind of way on one hand, and saying "This person is how [type] SHOULD act/communicate etc" on the other.

Praise, from another point of view, is just an indirect way of saying "This is an example of how [type] should act/communicate etc", because praise attempts to encourage more of the same behavior, just as punishment attempts to discourage unwanted behavior.

So, I guess that leaves us back at trying to figure out intent. What was intended by the praise? What was [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]'s intent in mentioning me? Maybe it's interpreted as "This is how [type] should act/communicate etc" because that would be our intent it if we said it? From our pov? What if it's interpreted differently from another pov? Is there another way to interpret it?

Or maybe it means exactly what it says. In which case, what's wrong with that? It's not as if we're not telling other people what to do, too. And it's an internet forum. No one can force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. One can always say "no" and let it go at that.

ETA: Just to clarify, I see nothing wrong with the direct or indirect methods. One isn't "better" than the other.

 

[PeaceBaby]

eta: I realize that that that second point assumes that the first kind of statement is ("wow, that was really great/helpful/etc") is literally honest and not some passive-aggressive manipulative tactic in some dysfunctional dynamic. I haven't been here long enough to know what's up with that in these discussions. I can say that if I say "that was helpful" or "that was accurate" etc, that's quite literally what I'm saying. Hope this makes sense.

Quoting Eilonwy was illustrative, not endorsing. I don't give anyone Fe strokes. For me, it's not about behaviour.

 

[grey_beard]

(snip)


I think that- because J types tend to have a more forceful tone- Ps project *a lot* of certainty into what we're saying that truly isn't there. I suspect many Ps are so certain of their perception of it that they don't believe it's projected- it maybe seems like there's no way someone can have that tone and not be certain.....but I believe the reason most INFJs back away from acquaintanceships is because there's so much uncertainty surfacing about the interpersonal dynamics with someone that it gets overwhelming. There's this "I don't know if it's you or if it's me, but something about this has become more effort than it's worth" element to it, I don't know how else to describe it. I think that everyone experiences that feeling every now and then- but we seem to experience it at the drop of a hat.

I think the reciprocate may be the 'manipulation' and 'playing stupid' it seems like NFPs do- it's really hard to imagine not having access to those parts of my memory that prevent me from even attempting to put forward the kinds of 'raw batter' that NFPs do. I could either trust it really is their blind spot- even though I can't imagine what that would be like to not remember details that would render what I'm putting forth obsolete- or I can assume they really do remember the details and they're just trying to see if they can get away with it/checking to see if I'm stupid enough to buy what they're saying (which is how it appears).

more eta:


Yep. The inability to take in criticism and allow for realities that aren't flattering- though the exact manifestation may vary according to 'type' (with some 'type' commonalities that surface)- is not, in itself, type related. While Ni may back away without being able to say anything, Ne tends to blast people with self-serving shape-shifty logic (without much concern for how it's making people on the other end feel, because empathy has been shut off).

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] (sorry if I have the @ symbol incorrect, I'm a n00b and don't yet know how to parse spaces within user names)...

I only joined a day or so ago and this thread looked interesting.
1) don't know about INFJs (sorry!) but I can attest to the seeming certainty attributed to Js by Ps, on the basis of INFPs I've known. They seem to like listening to it, especially if based on Te.
2) speaking of INFPs, what on earth do you mean by "raw batter" ? I'm usually good with metaphors (being an INTJ with *strong* Ni) but this one eludes me.
3) I do agree about the "something about this has become more effort that it's worth" when dealing with someone who seems clueless, not only about their social delivery, but even about *themselves*...

 

[Eilonwy]

And, [MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION], it occurs to me, that calling me a poster child, in whatever context, indirectly trivializes anything I have to say. I don't appreciate that. No one has to agree with what I say, or like what I say, but I would appreciate it not being characterized as insignificant or trite.