[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[Eilonwy]

I'm also pretty sure that the INFJ thought process comes in handy for something. We do have some value, you know. We just need to be aware of those blind spots. Everyone has them, just in different areas.


ETA: And it's kind of hard to own it unless we're aware of it. Part of what I was trying to say about owning our choices.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I was thinking about all the ways what I posted above could be misconstrued. Here we go!

My assumptions:

1) Fi-doms operate on a currency of emotions exchanged in relationships:

You make me feel good you are a friend...I'll scan your emotional landscape and make you feel good in return in my presence...OTOH, you make me feel bad (regardless of whether you intented it or not?) I'll feel entitled (justified/fair) to ask you to sooth my feelings/make reparations or if you don't, I'll feel justified to make you feel bad (using the scanned emotional landscape data) even if you are a friend...? Hence, INFPs do not put emphasis on intentions of the other but the resultant effect of the other's actions regardless of external circumstances/rules/ regulations/frameworks? So if the other indirectly/unintentionally makes INFPs feel bad about themselves that still (i.e. when healthier methods fail) gives INFPs a casus-belli to intentionally inflict hurt on the other (and feel no remorse)?

Reading that, if my eyebrows could have lifted off my face independently they would have launched into space!

Just no, omg no. How can I even correct that, when it's not how I feel I operate? Fi isn't about currency exchange. It's about me living up to a principle of what friendship means.

2) Assuming #1 is "roughly" correct; From INFPs' perspective, when INFJs (or anyone else) doorslam/dump someone without due process of exchanging feelings (or salvos?) non-INFJs are accrued/inflicted a hurt/bad feeling but INFJs are not (they get away with it?), which causes an imbalance in feelings exchanged, which is unfair to the non-INFJ?

Is this "roughly" the core of the problem with the delivery method of the doorslam?

No, sort of but not really - the problem with your scenarios is they are so generic I cannot possibly answer. I'll try to think about why I feel that way. But ultimately, from a strictly utilitarian perspective, if an INFJ wants to "make it look good" like they want to assist healing, they could listen in a neutral setting or with a 3rd party present without changing their position or BELIEVING that someone is trying to change their position. People just need to vent, eh?

So INFPs here on the thread are not questioning INFJs' right to resort to doorslam end the relationship but their (INFJs') right (or rather lack thereof) to inflict unilateral hurt and not giving non-INFJs a chance to somehow discharge that bad feeling/energy/hurt (grieving process)?

Of course an INFJ can doorslam if they want to. It's their prerogative, and I no more control that than any other human reaction outside of myself.

Try this on for size - this isn't an example from my own life at all, just a way to try to describe how some doorslams are perceived:

It's like we went out to dinner at a nice restaurant, we ordered wine and you seemed happy. We enjoyed appetizers, the entrees came and you weren't 100% happy with how your steak was cooked but still you seemed to enjoy it and didn't want to send it back to the kitchen. We were laughing, talking, there was flow and even though every tiny element wasn't perfect (you also noted that your dessert came with the wrong sauce but still you didn't want to send it back when I asked) ... even though every tiny element wasn't perfect, we were enjoying things and working out the bugs, not sweating the small stuff. The evening seemed overall quite lovely. You were smiling when you excused yourself to the restroom. BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T COME BACK! You scooted out the back door, leaving me alone with no car, questions, pain, your insincerity and to top it all off, the bill!

SOME doorslams are like this. Not ALL of course ... there are as many scenarios that play out to a doorslam as leaves on a tree. Some involve varieties of abuse, some involve narcissistic behaviour, some involve power dynamics and the list goes on and on, with patterns amongst these unique situations too numerous to paint out here.

THESE kind of "dinner doorslams" I think are the ones that leave the recipients bewildered. I mean, read Mane's posts, BalanceFind's posts. They are BEWILDERED. In any relationship, communication has NOT been happening if the doorslam recipient has NO CLUE why what happened happened. And then, like salt on a wound, the INFJ may say, "He/she forced me to this point. I had to distance myself because he was so unhealthy. He has mental health issues. I will never let him near me again." I mean, really?

OF COURSE other types distance themselves. OF COURSE all types may doorslam. But I see a pattern for INFJ's quite unique, and that's what we are exploring. This tendency for the type who sees themselves as so understanding to others does a 360 and basically shuts others out, blaming them wholly for the problems that arise.

(eta: it's not "You + Me = Problem", sometimes it seems like "You = Problem".)

It's a value mismatch, and perhaps that's what's gets my attention.

 

[PeaceBaby]

To try to tie it all in, it's possible that the complaints against certain INFJ thought processes (and blind spots) are valid. It doesn't mean that we can "fix" our thought processes, because we likely can't, but we can at least work around them in a way that is fair to both parties. But first we have to be aware of it. I think the people in this thread have been asking only for the awareness.

That's exactly right.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Perhaps this may serve as a simple example...A friend (X) tells me this story: there's this traffic light with a button for pedestrians to stop the traffic on a busy two way mainroad with a centre strip...X presses the button, cars stop...X crosses the road in a slow pace and reaches the centre strip even though X does not have any disabilities and might have crossed the road completely in one go if X increased pace...The traffic resumes again and then X stops the traffic once more to cross the other half of the road...A police officer nearby berates X for doing that on a busy road...X complains to me about this and I tell X that although X has a right to do that, X could have taken other people in the cars into consideration as well and could have increased pace so that like 20-30 more people wouldn't have to wait just for one person...X believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration...

My comment to X for instance I believe invalidated X's feelings...and perhaps police officer's comment made X feel like being controlled/dictated? I, OTOH, do not want to have to lie to (or enable) a friend...I suck at soothing btw (I think Fi dom/aux are much better at it)...Is this what you mean by invalidation? I need you to give me a simple concrete/literal example where you were doorslammed and felt invalidated so that I can grasp it...

I am asking these questions so I can solidly see the issue...

OK let me try to answer this.

1.) Perhaps they were not at the crosswalk when the light first turned and this impaired their ability to cross in time.
2.) Perhaps they have an injury they do not wish to reveal to you that impairs their ability to walk quickly.
3.) Perhaps they lack a good ability to gauge what speed is necessary to cross the intersection.
4.) Perhaps this was their first time at this intersection and did not know how long the light would last.
5.) Perhaps the intersection has time of day timing, meaning that the lights turn green to red more quickly in the afternoon than the morning.
6.) Perhaps they just felt tired that day, or sick that day, or were daydreaming a bit ...

This is where intent matters to me. Was it their intention to slow traffic? Were they irresponsibly lollygaggling in the street? What were the circumstances?

Just because the laconic retort you receive is "believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration..." does not mean that this is what they truly believe. It's just an easier way to try to shut you up and not feel like they have to justify every variable of their life with you so you listen to them and think their emotion of the moment is justified.

Are Fi-doms engaged in collecting and adding other people's emotional landscapes (patterns) into their repertoire like a Ti-dom would collect ideas or a Ni-dom would collect underlying patterns in human interactions? What purpose do those collections serve in a Fi-doms life? Does Fi repertoire try to build essential templates of human psyche with its strengths and weaknesses? And the Fi-dom adjusts his/her actions towards people wrt those templates? Do they serve a way for Fi-dom to navigate without stepping on other people's toes, to chart their course? What does the template tell a Fi-dom when he/she encounters another person? Does it tell him/her that this person is template Y, approach the person in this manner so that all can be well? So that the person can be disarmed?

I create Fi models, yes. First though:

Is there something wrong with the INFJ template? That it does not give accurate readings?

Create the Ni template for me so I can compare the two for you.

 

[Fidelia]

The way I had interpreted [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION], I didn't think he was asking about the dinner door slam, so much as an INFJ response to someone close to them pointing out something negative about themselves and them doorslamming as a way to avoid facing criticism or reflection. (I may be wrong - if I am, please clarify, Mane.)

I have found it easier to follow the discussion since he explained that he was not referring to distancing oneself from a relationship that is not appropriate to continue. Neither was he saying that every INFJ habitually behaves in this regard. He did however, want to explore the territory that overlapped between INFJness and this kind of behaviour and discuss whether or not a younger INFJ is ever likely to be able to reflect enough to make discussion possible in the event that the INFJ is confronted with negative aspects of themselves.

A lot of my frustration earlier in the thread stemmed from what I believed was the implication that any INFJ's choice to distance oneself from someone else is always a method of avoiding facing the truth about oneself. Now that Mane has made that distinction, it changes the discussion for me.

What muddies the waters is that there are many other circumstances where contact ends up being cut off (some for good reasons and some for bad). Each different person in the discussion has a slightly different focus of what kind of doorslam they are referencing, due to their own experiences, as well as the way in which they experience the world through the functions they operate with.

 

[Eilonwy]

One of the reasons my time in the north was so memorable was that it was the first time my frustration was so constant and unworkable that I really had to fight some things out. In every case it ended up being a positive thing, although dealing with it that way wouldn't have been my first choice.

Every positive change to myself in my life has come about with a lot of discomfort. I also tend to turn this around and try to not cause discomfort to others because I hate it so much myself. But in doing that, I rob them of the chance to possibly change for the better, too. This is still one of my struggles, because causing discomfort to others causes me discomfort also. This is why I figured I would suck at raising kids. I'm a horrible disciplinarian. I get the theory, but I still have trouble putting it into practice. I've been taking baby steps trying to change this about myself, but I figure at least they are steps.

 

[Tiltyred]

I don't think Mane's reports of his ex's behavior have anything whatsoever to do with the INFJs on this board. We're only hearing his side. We have no idea if she's even an INFJ. And seeing the reasons Mane gives for wanting to explore this territory that overlaps between INFJness and this behavior makes me think his time would be better spent trying to figure out stuff about his own behavior that led to the break-up.

INFJs tend not to speak up the first, second, or even third time something bothers them -- they have to sit with it and make sure their speaking up is warranted. The problem is, by the time they do speak up, the other person has become comfortable with what they're doing, and besides, the INFJ speaking up is generally some very mild "Gosh, I wish you wouldn't" sort of comment that is often waived away. Over time, this stuff begins to snowball, and it can lead to what the other person might term a doorslam, when in fact the INFJ several times mentioned their unhappiness with certain aspects of the relationship, but nothing changed.

So one suggestion is if your partner is unhappy with something, either stop it or negotiate some middle ground that your partner can fully agree on -- don't agree to stop it and then keep doing it. This creates all sorts of bad impressions, the least of which is that talking doesn't mean anything to you.

 

[PeaceBaby]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]: think of the gestalt of the "dinner doorslam", I'm going for how that feels rather than solely what that says. It essentially is an interruption and irrevocable departure from a previously established routine and says, "Things were going along and weren't perfect, but when things weren't right we talked about it, at least I thought we did. Until the day it ended. And there was no going back." Part of the shock is that the old pattern is shattered too?

At any rate, I appreciate that Mane's framework above is helpful.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here's another consideration, actually backwards reasoning, to try to connect doorslamming to the INFJ type. I think both INFJ and ISFJ are introverts that get more involved in their relationships, and so people start having expectations that they don't have from more distant Fi's and T introverts. When the Fe-aux types actually do pull away, everyone is more shocked by the contrast to their expectations, whereas the INFP or INTJ, etc. are just distant in a way that no one questions.

Also, really dominant types can control their social situations overtly and don't need to retreat to fix things. I know plenty of INFJ or ISFJ who are too accommodating to the people in their life, so when they withdraw, people are like, "Hey, get back here doormat, I'm not done stomping on you! What a horrible person you are to doorslam me! How victimized I am by you because you used to be nice and look how horrible you are to focus on yourself".

Oh for shame! The big, horrible INFJ doorslam.

 

[Eilonwy]

If you feel invalidated nearly every time in a given interaction, it's only reasonable you will look for ways to fix that. You can avoid or you can confront, or you can decide it's all funny and fine, but to escape the bad feeling, you have to do something. Depends on your style, depends on how much energy you have to give to that particular facet of your present existence. It sounds like getting them to stop pouring you Pepsis you don't want took quite some effort, and that's a small thing. I imagine the Pepsi is just the tip of the iceberg. So it's no wonder you're asking to be excused.

But I'm not asking for the break because of their behavior in this case. I'm asking because I need the break. I wasn't paying attention during the holidays, and both my mom and I got wiped out. I need a break from the routine.

 

[Eilonwy]

Another thing I've noticed myself doing is that, after I've made all of those contingency plans and thought through my responses, when I'm in the actual conversation, I might end up interpreting whatever is said by what I've already imagined will be said, and end up not hearing what's actually said.

Or, I might be listening, but something said links to some connection in my mind, and then I stop giving my full attention to what's actually being said and miss parts of the conversation.

 

[Tiltyred]

And do you think this has anything to do with your Myers-Briggs type?

 

[Fidelia]

Every positive change to myself in my life has come about with a lot of discomfort. I also tend to turn this around and try to not cause discomfort to others because I hate it so much myself. But in doing that, I rob them of the chance to possibly change for the better, too. This is still one of my struggles, because causing discomfort to others causes me discomfort also. This is why I figured I would suck at raising kids. I'm a horrible disciplinarian. I get the theory, but I still have trouble putting it into practice. I've been taking baby steps trying to change this about myself, but I figure at least they are steps.

The interesting thing is that I don't find it at all disconcerting to do so with kids. I expect it has something to do with having had lots of practice in various situations and knowing that I can break through on the other side with their self-esteem and our relationship intact. As I've gotten older, I probably am way more outspoken and honest with kids than I would have ever imagined myself to be. Maybe I'm not as sure about adults in that sense because they have more autonomy, we are on the same level in terms of hierarchy and so I feel that unless they are really infringing on me and I have done everything within my own power to alter the situation and I am absolutely sure that the ball is in their court, it is only at that point that I even feel sure enough to bring it up. Because we value different things, I'm sure that my flexing probably doesn't seem significant (or even noticeable to them), and similarly, I probably don't notice theirs because it is not in the areas that I value most. In addition to that, because INFJs are so adverse to raw batter expression, one reason that the doorslam generally places blame on the other person and feels justified is that the INFJ honestly feels that not only have they invested superhuman amounts of effort in doing everything they can to fix things themself, but they have also have repeated examples of certain behaviours in the other person which were used in their decision making process to even bother the other person with their problem in the first place. Depending on how the other person responded, they would likely either be completely diffused, or lose hope that there is any point persisting in trying to ameliorate the situation.

Depending on what else is going on, addition information I've gotten, or on the other person's response, I realize that I can easily start viewing a set of circumstances in a different light without the other person being apprised of the process. In a sense, nothing in the actual circumstances has changed. However, something in the way I view the whole thing has. I can see where that would be tremendously disconcerting and could have disastrous consequences if all the other person sees is the external process. Like PB said, it would seem like dinner was going along fine and then the other person just took off. However, with the benefit of being walked through the thought process or knowing the additional information that has come to light, I think it would help at least explain it much better (even if the other party didn't agree with what the INFJ decided to do with that). This I can see as being a potential blindspot, and it is one of the reasons why I take an abysmally long amount of time to act on anything. Sometimes the situation would be better served by more immediate action, but if immediate action would be taken, I am pretty sure that it would be the WRONG immediate action and would probably do irreparable damage to the relationship. Lesser of the two evils - but the downside is that it can lead to INFJs being seen as doormats who don't notice bad behaviour (not true), or as self-righteous, self-made victims who don't make their complaints known early enough so that the other person can do something about it before it gets worse.

The very thing that some people like about INFJs - their ability to look at a situation from a variety of viewpoints and gather information in that way - is also a problem. I often don't actually know which viewpoint is correct because of all of the different shoes lying around to try on. I know what my initial reaction is, but it often isn't really reliable to count on - I might be tired and cranky, I might be missing information that would put the other person's behaviour in context, I might be missing information about myself, and I might just need time to see how important the whole thing is to me in the long run. The initial reaction just says that something is bothering me or that everything is fine and the only distressing part of it is when I can't figure out what part of a situation is causing me distress. After I figure it out though, unfortunately, the pain of it dwindles and the urgency to deal with it also does. I am unlikely to express upset feelings in the moment because it is unfair to stir someone else up if that's not really the way I'll be feeling about it a few hours or days from now anyway. I would be really upset if someone did that to me.

 

[Eilonwy]

And do you think this has anything to do with your Myers-Briggs type?

I think it's part of Ni at work, yes.

ETA: It's not that other types don't check out of conversations, too, but the particular way that I do it. I noticed even before I knew anything about MBTI that I have a different conversation style. Especially concerning my second point. Once an Ni connection is sparked for me, and starts branching out, if I'm the one speaking...well...it can get strange because most of it stays in my head and what comes out might not make a whole lot of sense to my listener. Usually in conversations, I can catch enough to get a quick impression and figure out what the other person is going to say based on past experience of that person. And I'm correct a surprising amount of time. But those times I'm not correct...um...not good. And not really fair to the other person for me to check out and bounce around in my own head. I've worked on focusing on spoken conversations for a long time now. I tend to revert when I'm stressed or tired, though. Or if the other person knows MBTI and is okay with me doing this. And it seems to mesh when speaking with other INFJs and possibly a few other types.

 

[yeghor]

With what little I know about the functions, here's my take on INFJ:

Ni = imagined possibilities
Fe = based in reality, but abstract decision making
Ti = concrete, but symbolic, decision making
Se = reality-based perception

Perhaps:

Ni=synthesizer/juicer (detects underlying patterns in human interactions and simplifies them into patterns)
Fe=social/societal filter (filters Ni deductions to prevent disharmony or create harmony/synergy in the social group? may be overriden by Ni, may go against social harmony/group if convinced by Ni-Ti that it is necessary)
Ti=Analyzer (crosschecks Ni deductions against factual data?)
Se=Body awareness - Ability to flow/adjust/manipulate physical environment, use of body language, motor skills, dancing, hand eye coordination etc...)

The problem I see here in terms of INFJs and doorslam is that some INFJs may be trigger-happy when discarding certain people that Ni-Ti deductions tell them to not be OK for them...

Also slow analysis rate of Ni-Ti and Fe fearing making a mistake and creating disharmony (people not liking me, feeling shame, people turning hostile against me) and lack of instantenous Se ability to influence immediate environment paralyzes me against acting in the moment when I feel my boundaries are violated...which causes the other party not being aware of the problem penting up in my head and me not being able to release/discharge it before a critical point that results in me turning off Fe for that person...which afterwards basically means I no longer care about the other party...

So checking deductions with the said person (if he/she is open to being questioned) or some outside trusted party for advice, trying to be more and immediately vocal about perceived offenses/grievances (being more assertive assuming that the other party is receptive) may help preventing the doorslam or may allow INFJs to make a more graceful exit...

 

[yeghor]

...I do this a lot. Imagine responses and plan for them. And since there's not much reason to plan for the best, I tend to go for the worst. And then I feel dread. And I don't want to even tell them. I think that maybe I don't really need the break, or I think of other ways to get out of speaking up and facing the real response because the imaginary ones already feel horrible to me and I want to avoid more horrible feelings. So then I put off asking for what I need...

I do this too...Can it be our weak Ne playing tricks on us when we are anxious, creating worst case extrapolations of events to come?

 

[yeghor]

...Fi isn't about currency exchange. It's about me living up to a principle of what friendship means.

What is that principle in simple terms?

...Try this on for size - this isn't an example from my own life at all, just a way to try to describe how some doorslams are perceived:

It's like we went out to dinner at a nice restaurant, we ordered wine and you seemed happy. We enjoyed appetizers, the entrees came and you weren't 100% happy with how your steak was cooked but still you seemed to enjoy it and didn't want to send it back to the kitchen. We were laughing, talking, there was flow and even though every tiny element wasn't perfect (you also noted that your dessert came with the wrong sauce but still you didn't want to send it back when I asked) ... even though every tiny element wasn't perfect, we were enjoying things and working out the bugs, not sweating the small stuff. The evening seemed overall quite lovely. You were smiling when you excused yourself to the restroom. BUT THEN YOU DIDN'T COME BACK! You scooted out the back door, leaving me alone with no car, questions, pain, your insincerity and to top it all off, the bill!

SOME doorslams are like this. Not ALL of course ... there are as many scenarios that play out to a doorslam as leaves on a tree. Some involve varieties of abuse, some involve narcissistic behaviour, some involve power dynamics and the list goes on and on, with patterns amongst these unique situations too numerous to paint out here.

THESE kind of "dinner doorslams" I think are the ones that leave the recipients bewildered. I mean, read Mane's posts, BalanceFind's posts. They are BEWILDERED. In any relationship, communication has NOT been happening if the doorslam recipient has NO CLUE why what happened happened. And then, like salt on a wound, the INFJ may say, "He/she forced me to this point. I had to distance myself because he was so unhealthy. He has mental health issues. I will never let him near me again." I mean, really?

I can understand how that scenario made feel people bewildered, they must have felt like used and cheated...but I cannot relate to that scenario myself...

As a side note, it feels to me that you are uttering words like narcissism and abuse too lightly...by doing that you are inadvertently invalidating/minimizing my and other INFJs experience...It feels to me that you have never experienced abuse/bullying or had to share the same space with someone with a cluster B personality disorder...

But anyway, how would you have preferred the dinner to end (still resulting in dissolution of the relationship)?

What would have caused you to act that way if you had been the one leaving without note in the scenario?

OF COURSE other types distance themselves. OF COURSE all types may doorslam. But I see a pattern for INFJ's quite unique, and that's what we are exploring. This tendency for the type who sees themselves as so understanding to others does a 360 and basically shuts others out, blaming them wholly for the problems that arise.

I have good understanding of people but I am not very understanding/tolerant of people...If it would make you feel good, I am just another human being trying to chart my way in the world...The rift between some INFPs and INFJs on the forum remind me the relationship between Loki and Thor but that's a story for another time...

As for the pattern for INFJs...Perhaps the type of people that INFJs doorslam are more vocal about it with respect to others, which makes our story to stand out more?

Your preferred version of the dinner story would cast more light on the problem...

 

[Society]

i think it's worth noting that for the most part, the question of type validity acts in the discussion as a red herring:
the question "are you a real INFJ" can be targeted at anyone here - if the argument is simply rarity, that isn't quite valid - there are more people that the people here know the people here, so even if INFJs where unicorns chances of someone here knowing an INFJ are still far greater then the chances of someone here being an INFJ. that is true for anything - as long as anyone from typoC knows anyone who isn't from typoC, the chances of someone here knowing someone who [won the lottery / has a rare heart disease / whatever] are far greater then someone here [wining the lottery / having a rare heart disease / whatever].
while the status of MBTI itself is questionable in general, one truth is self evident from the nature of typology as a social phenomena: that enough people's ego's are wired in ways which make them identify with one type more than then the others. to that extent, my ex tested herself and identified herself as an INFJ. beyond that, while there are many branching and competing versions and definitions and semantic plays of the MBTI that would rather compete for the title of being "the truth mbti" then simply getting a name of their own (and i admit in my earlier days of MBTI i added to that mess - i was almost as bad as yeghor). to be more selective, i would say that nardi's definition leave her either an INFJ or at the furthest stretch an INTJ with one very weirdly people oriented Fe-masquerading Te (and Ti-masquerading Fi), but then again nardi's research follows the footsteps of jung's theoretical musing in focusing rather heavily on dominant functions (a.k.a. on "the 8 types"). more statistically valid - the corresponding area between MBTI and global 5, she is definitely Reserved, Organized, Accommodating & Inquisitive, while being harder to define on calm vs limbic. as far as other people's INFJs not being the realz INFJ... meh.

anyway..

I assume they hate me and that this is not fixable.

i'm sorry to hear what just happened, and maybe giving the situation some space is not a bad decision regardless of doorslamming, i don't know. but i'm really not open to apply that defeatism to my case, and to be honest i don't think i would be in yours - if i understand it correctly (which i admit i might very well not) - you too have a common 3rd party which is likely to get hurt your in-law's doorslam (a.k.a. your husband).

under such circumstances, any "should's and shouldn'ts" ethical framework which would determine that someone has a right to be continuously destructive to you and someone you care about can is liable for a big giant "fuck you". the value ethics have beyond affirmation is in giving tools & guidelines to do better by others. when that isn't the case, the should's and shouldn't aren't worth much of anything. that's just my two cents though.

The way I had interpreted [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION], I didn't think he was asking about the dinner door slam, so much as an INFJ response to someone close to them pointing out something negative about themselves and them doorslamming as a way to avoid facing criticism or reflection. (I may be wrong - if I am, please clarify, Mane.)

yep, that seems to be the most common theme more or less;
X is a [insert destructive behavior], person A does X to B, person B tries to fix or talk about X, person B is highly offended by the notion they would ever do X and finds person A's perspective to be "ugly" as a result, preson A rages and withdraws to not have to look at themselves. person B is stuck with the X.

(to be honest i think i've read [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] outright illustrating this in multiply occasions in various posts i recently came across from long before i joined, i don't quite understand why this is only being placed at the forefront now. i am more bewildered and surprised by your understanding reaction to me then i was to the positive reaction to skylight in last year's roundabout).

I guess what's weird to me is that you believe that there is a group of people that do this stuff.

going from "what do you do when someone does X" to hearing stories particular to situation's X from both ends and finding common mental threads was surprising to me as well. i still find it amusing when that transition is portrayed as the intent itself - or more so, when people trying to find out how to get a person to move between an overlapping region between that mentality an INFJs and an area which doesn't over lap is understood by others as denying there is an area outside of the overlap.

I do this too...Can it be our weak Ne playing tricks on us when we are anxious, creating worst case extrapolations of events to come?

when in stress, an INFJ may often see threats in the relationship, that may be grains of sand, but which the INFJ will hyperbolize into mountain ranges. this happens with both INFJs and INTJs. in stress, all INxJs can get stuck in the grip of their inferior extroverted sensing, which Roger Pierman in "i'm not crazy i'm just not you",describes in the following terms:
"extroverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment - people, things and places.
the fluid experience of information enables those using extroverted sensing to describe experiences well.
but in its compensatory form, extroverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact,
at times a simple smell can lead to the catastrophic conclusion that a relationship is over.
there is no step-by-step logic leading to the conclusion; it is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at."
ordinarily very good at connection observations to illuminate deeper meaning, when stressed it may be very difficult to get an INFJ to reexamine their trusted insight, as they may simply find new random facts to validate their perspective.

 

[Southern Kross]

What I am trying to get at with that is that is the rough impression I get from INFP posts here...And I can grasp it if it is formulated/fleshed out in such a way...perhaps by real life "literal" narration of examples...

Regarding invalidation, there may be external (like social, legal) justifications/frameworks (that I identify with) that may compel me or make me feel justified to refuse someone else's perspective...

Perhaps this may serve as a simple example...A friend (X) tells me this story: there's this traffic light with a button for pedestrians to stop the traffic on a busy two way mainroad with a centre strip...X presses the button, cars stop...X crosses the road in a slow pace and reaches the centre strip even though X does not have any disabilities and might have crossed the road completely in one go if X increased pace...The traffic resumes again and then X stops the traffic once more to cross the other half of the road...A police officer nearby berates X for doing that on a busy road...X complains to me about this and I tell X that although X has a right to do that, X could have taken other people in the cars into consideration as well and could have increased pace so that like 20-30 more people wouldn't have to wait just for one person...X believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration...

My comment to X for instance I believe invalidated X's feelings...and perhaps police officer's comment made X feel like being controlled/dictated? I, OTOH, do not want to have to lie to (or enable) a friend...I suck at soothing btw (I think Fi dom/aux are much better at it)...Is this what you mean by invalidation? I need you to give me a simple concrete/literal example where you were doorslammed and felt invalidated so that I can grasp it...

I think we're really on different wave-lengths here. It seems that you're interpreting my words too literally.

Also your example is like a loaded question, which is something I get a lot with INFJs. I don't mean that as an insult - merely as a observation. I understand that Ni basically requires this and that can result in a lot of brilliant insights. It's also something that comes back to what I was saying about controlling the terms of the interaction. The language you use in the example instructs me how to read the situation, against my wishes. You've basically told me X is doing something selfish and unnecessary and then is hurt when he/she is told off for it. In this sense (I feel like) you've left me no choice but to agree with you that X is in the wrong, because to disagree would be illogical. It prevents me from impartially evaluating the hypothetical myself, because the evaluation is forced upon me, already pre-packaged. Do you see how I might find this mildly controlling? The things is this stuff particularly affects a INFP because having the freedom to evaluate things in our own way is so central to us.

Invalidation doesn't come from someone disagreeing with me; having a different opinion is totally fine, even if I don't like hearing it. I feel invalidation when my opinion is not allowed to exist - when it can't be accepted as a legitimate point of view or a natural reaction to something, even if you disagree with it.

I'm sorry I can't think of a specific example right now. I will try to come up with one.

By "dictating the terms of the interaction" do you mean you want to have the last word or do not want the other to have the last word? Or is this about having to submit to some external factor and you resent that because that triggers something (what)? What further action would you take in regards to the other if you weren't controlled by it?

I am the sort of person who likes having the last word but that's just me and is besides the point.

No, it's not about having the last word, but it is about being forced to submit to an external factor. Like what I said above, INFJs can limit the scope and terms of the discussion in a way that prevents me from ever really having a say. I'm so busy doing Ti style explanations or counter-arguments (which are very difficult and mentally exhausting for me personally) that I can never really speak freely and bring up the things I want to. I'm trapped into discussing what the INFJ wants to discuss and how he/she wants to discuss it. The thing is sometimes, deep down in the recesses of my mind, I can almost feel the INFJ reaching in and sweeping aside my beliefs, my opinions, my way of seeing the world, bit by bit, and filling it with their own. I can feel myself losing sight of the things that matter, but I feel helpless to stop it. I don't necessarily blame INFJs for this; for the most part it is just them communicating the way that they do naturally and they can't be expected to know how that feels on the receiving end for me personally. However, there are times when INFJs employ this technique ruthlessly and I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they're doing. They might not comprehend the full impact of it and merely see it as hard-bargaining, but it is crossing a line.

Why the urge to correct another's process/behaviour unless it's causing you distress somehow? Why not simply accept it? How does illogicality of another's process affect you?

Hard to explain. I suppose it comes back to the fact that I'm not reading external emotions/behaviours, but what is going on in the inside of their head. I have to be in their head to make sense of people and the way the world works. I'm seeing things on their terms and it makes me very forgiving towards people, but when I think they "should know better", I'm not so forgiving. I suppose it's much like how FJs feel when the see someone is not following a social norm - they may know it shouldn't really matter, but they can't help but be bothered by it. But like FJs, the correction doesn't usually come with yelling and insults - it might be that you try to bring them round in more subtle ways.

Are Fi-doms engaged in collecting and adding other people's emotional landscapes (patterns) into their repertoire like a Ti-dom would collect ideas or a Ni-dom would collect underlying patterns in human interactions?What purpose do those collections serve in a Fi-doms life?

Yes, very much so. It's a way to piece together an understanding of people and the world around us. We don't have external standards like Je doms/auxs to guide us; we must find our own path ourselves; build our own model from scratch.

Does Fi repertoire try to build essential templates of human psyche with its strengths and weaknesses?And the Fi-dom adjusts his/her actions towards people wrt those templates?

I don't consciously approach it with strengths and weakness in mind, no. When I go searching, I try not to place a pre-existing judgement on a specific attribute of another person. The attribute itself is neutral; the application of it, however, can start to obtain a positive or negative quality. But that aside, yes, I do adjust my behaviour to that person with the template in mind.

Do they serve a way for Fi-dom to navigate without stepping on other people's toes, to chart their course?

Yes.

What does the template tell a Fi-dom when he/she encounters another person? Does it tell him/her that this person is template Y, approach the person in this manner so that all can be well? So that the person can be disarmed?

Well this will be different for ISFPs (Ne-Si vs. Se-Ni has an impact on this). I don't see each persona as a single template, but a combination of many (I couldn't say how many templates I have in mind - it may be thousands). I do have a sense of the universal template for human beings as well though - that helps me to understand the fundamentals of all people. "Disarm"? That's such a unpleasant word to use for it. It's not like I want to break them down to my will. I just need to know what language they speak so I know how to communicate with them. If figure out they speak Polish, then I know that speaking Mandarin to them isn't going to work and I know that German or Russian may be offensive . It also helps me to read what they're saying. For each word they say, I have to be using the correct mental dictionary to correctly interpret what it means. Sometimes words have many meanings within a single language. Sometimes there's a word that is the same across many languages but the meaning is slightly different, so I must be careful not to confuse them. Does that make sense?

Is there something wrong with the INFJ template? That it does not give accurate readings?

There is nothing inherently wrong with it, no. There are blindspots, just as there are for every type.

^^ Can the INFJ be feeling the same imposing and frustration from his/her perspective?

Absolutely.

So why not go separate ways or agree to disagree? Does INFJs' blocking arouse feelings in you that you have somehow been the "bad/wrong/false" side in the interaction and you need an urge to convince yourself that is not the case and that causes you distress?

Perhaps. This is suggestion intent-driven, so if it does reflect my behaviour, it would be more unconscious for me. I feel the frustration and don't like how things are going, but perhaps don't even know what I want out of the whole thing. I suppose unresolved feelings are what I react to, what I focus on and try to deal with. So I keep trying to resolve them by continuing the argument until they feel resolved or we're both so worn out and disillusioned that we give up.

 

[Starry]

I can't exactly relate to this^^ scenario...

But I sometimes fester (conspiracy) scenarios in my head or have imaginary quarrels with my friends about some perceived hurt...Usually they dissipate when I check the issue with them or I bury it deep if they themselves show genuine concern for me afterwards...Perhaps such an imagined scenario or monologue had festered in him for too long without outside verification or dissipation, due to which he concluded it to be real? I don't really see how it can happen just over a night though...He should have gradually become distant/detached before doorslam in such a case...

I'm really glad you joined the site yeghor. I have an easier time 'intellectually accessing' your posts (I swear, sometimes I can look at a post...and it will just look like a bunch of words thrown-up on the screen randomly ) They make a lot of sense to me and so I especially appreciate them. You also vibe a little like my ex...who deep down was a good person I want you to know (just far more troubled than I had originally recognized which...after reading some about my family...it probably makes sense how this all got missed by me haha. He kinda gave me that home-sweet-home feeling )

What you describe above...yes, I'm quite certain he did all of that and then some. And he was extraordinarily paranoid. <-Let me say that again. He was extraordinarily paranoid. I feel quite certain now that he was 528 (which just sounds hard...like a recipe for madness/paralysis as far as I'm concerned poor guy - I believe this is sometimes referred to as *triple rejection*.) And I think he ended-up doing this e2ish thing to me... this thing...this behavior... It's a human behavior...but if my personal observation/experience had any say in the matter... I would correlate this bastard behavior with Fe faster than you can say Extroverted Feeling. The only way I can think to describe it though...

My father, INTJ e5. <-Let's say a neighbor casually asked him for help on a project or engine work or something... If he didn't feel like helping at that time...he would politely say 'No', shut the door and probably never think about that situation again. If it was a non-emergency type situation and he just didn't feel like helping-out at that time...that would be a good enough reason not to help. And he would own that decision and all that may come of it. Fin

Now let's insert my ENFJ e2 Mom into this same scenario as a comparison. Let's say a neighbor casually failed to read my Mom's mind and dared asked her for some assistance when she didn't feel like it... See, this is a far more complex situation here. "Just not feeling like helping someone" <-that will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever get factored into my Mom's image of herself. I assure you, it happens all the time but because she can't see herself as anything other than 100% altruistic...the reason for her not helping absolutely cannot be due to her own 'selfish' reasons. This dilemma is easily remedied though... as soon as the neighbor gets transformed into a known asshole. So all of a sudden the neighbor's a total asshole...she's never liked them...she's always gotten a "bad feeling" about them... and THAT is why she was put into this position of having to turn them down.


^^my ex didn't have a lot of control over his emotions...he was kinda all over the place...sometimes warm and trusting...sometimes cold and suspicious...sometimes angry and critical...you just never really knew what you were walking into and I think he would become confused regarding what was real and who was truly responsible for his moods...him or me. I think there were times he really needed me to be the cause... and one day he cracked.

He may not have had the courage to face the shame so he may have avoided apologizing to you…

Yes, he still spoke to me sporadically when I was 'the asshole/accused.' Or I should say...'spoke down to me' (with great arrogance too although he never explained to me what had happened.) It was when he remembered (?) who I was again that's when he completely broke down and cut off communication. And yah I'm still confused by it all. I didn't know what a doorslam was. The NFJs in my family? <-you may wish for them to doorslam you...but they won't. So none of this occurred to me right away.


I do get angry when I think about how much time I lost to panic....when just a few simple words from him would have saved me so much. He knew me. When he came back around to who I am he had to have known how scared I was for him. I mean, I am sickened when I see comments from INFJ members that imply 'I got what I deserved'...or I just wanted him back so I could 'drain him a little more.' Bullshit. Those comments are so ignorant in my opinion and even laughable in my situation. When I think about who actually did for what for whom in my relationship? He absolutely did not do more for me than I did for him. And he knew I would kindly walk away from the relationship if I actually understood it was the end and he was ok. I haven't had a lot of significant others...but I am still best of friends with every serious s.o. I've ever had. He knew I could successfully weather a break-up and instead he chose to leave me to panic for him and his well-being. 'Good bye' on a fuckin post-it note stuck to the hood of my car just so I could know that he hadn't completely lost his mind. <-I recognize I shouldn't ask for so much but what can I say?...I'm a demanding bitch when it comes right down to it.

I try to be understanding because I know I don't have the same relationship to shame as he does...and I can't judge his feelings and how I would respond... but the worry and confusion took such a massive toll on my health. I was raised not to turn your back on someone you love. I'm not a 'shit happens' kind of person when it comes to relationships I'm committed to. And frankly, I don't want to be. It has been difficult to grasp that his shame took precedence over my fear. He knew me.

Under the hurrying stars, under the heaving arches, like one whirled down under shadowy seas,
I run to find you, I run and cry
Where are you? Where are you? It is I. It is I.

Thanks for letting me talk about it.
Fin

It's a derail to respond to this part, but that's well-said and I do relate to this paragraph. I see it as kind of responding to the reception the story gets from each respective audience. The details in retelling a story (when the event is first relived) are fairly true to exactly what happened and are generally narrative. For me to tell a story, the event would have evoked an emotional response and to convey the meaning of what happened, I sometimes want to share that emotional response with the person listening as well. So, especially if the person listening does not have the same response or acts like I'm crazy to have felt that way, in order to evoke the response, the details get tweaked, emphasized or de-emphasized over time. I recognized this tendency in myself very young. My first memory of it is at 7 years old.

When that happens, that I put stress on one aspect rather than another, I get the Fi gut-feeling of not being truthful to stray from the balance of facts of the matter or exaggerating to a certain exterior affect. I don't like this so I work hard to be aware and correct myself. It's a temptation for sure. I'm never really interested in being a great story-teller though, as I don't have a goal or an emotional destination in the story I am driving for (ENTP's in particular I think lean to that direction). I more want to convey that feeling that I had in the personal experience, and when it's not shared, I sometimes want to work the details to ensure the story is experienced by the listener in the same emotional manner I felt it. I don't feel like I am telling the story right somehow if the listener can't relate.

Is that what you mean [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION] by shape-shifty logic? (I see it as a desire to belong rather than logic? Or maybe it is Fe logic, in it's own way? I guess to me Te is logic after all.) But if that's what you've meant, I can relate to that and see it in varying degrees / venues with all NPs. Trying to share the community experience, but on a smaller scale. Like Starry is talking about.

This probably deserves a thread, actually.

I need to read this over a few more times and think some more about it. There's something in here I really like but I can't get to it in my mind...it keeps slipping away. I also need to 're-figure out' what the heck I was saying in the first place haha. We're saying the same thing but there's a deeper element to what you put forth that I recognize but need to consider more. Again, I like it. Thanks so much.

Also, really dominant types can control their social situations overtly and don't need to retreat to fix things. I know plenty of INFJ or ISFJ who are too accommodating to the people in their life, so when they withdraw, people are like, "Hey, get back here doormat, I'm not done stomping on you! What a horrible person you are to doorslam me! How victimized I am by you because you used to be nice and look how horrible you are to focus on yourself".

Oh for shame! The big, horrible INFJ doorslam.

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