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[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

cafe

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because defining your mental health by your willingness to play into the pretend universes of others in which you don't exist has being a hassle for the psychiatric association.
Unless a person is not legally competent no one else has a right to make that determination about who they associate with regardless of whether or not one believes them to be mentally healthy. If a person has a psychosis that makes them a danger to themselves or others, then, yes, they may need some kind of guardianship otherwise, why is it okay to force yourself into their life regardless of their wishes?
 
S

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on a general side note - you are repeating this part:

i've addressed this earlier, but to clarify further: there is "trying to explain" (examine, "how does this work"*, ) and there is "trying to explain" (justify, "explain yourself young lady!"). for whatever reason, a lot of the INFJs seem to read the first as the later, or perhaps find the two hard to distinguish. either way, the result is that the general responses here people have gotten for talking about their problems with INFJs (and expressing a desire to get a better grasp of them) has mostly being composed of self righteous justifications and attempts at establishing ideological support for causing the same problems**. in doing so you essentially change the topic from "how it works" to "is it justified", and in turn whether the arguments and ideological framework placed to support it are justified, resulting in you feeling on trial, and the response of anyone coming with their own personal experiences is then to the argue against the justifications using those personal experiences, so you end up feeling on trial for other people's personal experiences.

..and round and round the merry go round.


...and perhaps so am i just repeating the next part by answering you. here we go again:

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Unless a person is not legally competent no one else has a right to make that determination about who they associate with regardless of whether or not one believes them to be mentally healthy.
since when did rights become a cop out from being responsible for how you practice them? just because i believe in the right for free speech doesn't mean i can't recognize that practicing it certain ways can make me into an asshole.

why is it okay to force yourself into their life regardless of their wishes?
when are you not forcing yourself on everyone's lives? everyone else in this universe has little to no choice but to live with the consequences you have on them, likewise they are in turn forcing themselves on you. unless we are all figments of your imagination, then its rather safe to say we live in the same universe, regardless of which parts of it you choose to look at, they will still be there, and they will still be forced to experience the consequences of anything you do, worst so if you also try to force them to pretend that they and those consequences upon their lives don't exist as well. do you need to look beyond this thread to find examples of such potential consequences? do you think any of the doorslammed people in this thread (or anywhere) get to live without the actions & consequences of the doorslammer forced on them? just because the doorslammer chooses not to look at what they do to people doesn't mean they aren't forcing themselves onto them.
 

cafe

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since when did rights become a cop out from being responsible for how you practice them? just because i believe in the right for free speech doesn't mean i can't recognize that practicing it certain ways can make me into an asshole.
I can see how such a thing is unpleasant and can hurt a great deal. I haven't liked it when people have chosen not to interact with me. I felt hurt and misunderstood and sad. I never felt as though the appropriate response was to try to make them communicate with me whether they wanted to or not or that they had any obligation to justify their actions to me. At least not in any kind of social/relational situation.

when are you not forcing yourself on everyone's lives? everyone else in this universe has little to no choice but to live with the consequences you have on them, likewise they are in turn forcing themselves on you. unless we are all figments of your imagination, then its rather safe to say we live in the same universe, regardless of which parts of it you choose to look at, they will still be there, and they will still be forced to experience the consequences of anything you do, worst so if you also try to force them to pretend that they and those consequences upon their lives don't exist as well. do you need to look beyond this thread to find examples of such potential consequences?
When, after several attempts at interaction, it becomes clear that I'm being avoided I can't imagine why I would not back off. What horrible thing is going to happen to me as a result? Generally nothing but sadness and regret and a feeling of longing or missing. I do not see why anyone else should give up their autonomy and be made to feel uncomfortable so that I do not have to experience those things. It's an artificial situation in which another human being would be enduring my presence out of a sense of obligation or pity or guilt. I don't see that as being in any way superior to feeling sad and lonely. I think even if it were my husband, whom I love, I'd rather he left than live with me in misery and guilt. My heart would be broken, but I could grieve and move on. If I really care about someone, why would I want to inflict myself upon them if it made them unhappy?
 
S

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What horrible thing is going to happen to me as a result?I think even if it were my husband, whom I love, I'd rather he left than live with me in misery and guilt.

depends on the specifics. to take your example:
I think even if it were my husband, whom I love, I'd rather he left than live with me in misery and guilt.

would you rather he left you with the kids withhold them from contacting you and brainwash them that you abandoned them?
would you rather he left you with your house your property and assets and left you with no place to live?
would you rather he left you after you got pregnant with his child who he felt not having?
(respectively - examples from me, balancefind and lazerdrive)

the only person who gets to live in the imaginary world where the doorslammer actions aren't forcing their consequences onto others is the doorslammer.
 

cafe

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depends on the specifics. to take your example:


would you rather he left you with the kids withhold them from contacting you and brainwash them that you abandoned them?
would you rather he left you with your house your property and assets and left you with no place to live?
would you rather he left you after you got pregnant with his child who he felt not having?
(respectively - me, balancefind and lazerdrive)

the only person who gets to live in the imaginary world where the doorslammer actions aren't forcing themselves onto others is the doorslammer.
Those are all legal obligations involving parental responsibility and property distribution and I would absolutely address those issues in the appropriate venue to the best of my ability. I would fight for my rights as a parent and joint property owner, but I would not insist that he resume our marriage or socialize with me.

Edit: And the stuff you describe happens all the time. All the time. Like I can name you a half dozen examples just off the top of my head of people doing stuff like that. It's not an INFJ thing. It's a sucky people thing.
 

yeghor

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Maybe to both. Maybe they're both partially correct. These deductions aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Jeez, this is so complex. Ideally relationships shouldn't end in a hot blooded manner (and I would consider doorslamming hot-blooded); if you're still mad, you still have feelings. B should be careful not to make a decision too quickly and in the heat of emotion. I think A should fight to keep the relationship if he/she really believes in it, but there comes a point where B's wishes must be accepted, even if they're wrong.

Sorry these questions aren't easy to answer meaningfully.

Thank you, your answers show that you have awareness of the general dynamics and nuances of such a relationship...

I, as an INFJ, really needed the bolded part to be conceded, thank you...

I have theory about how INFPs here see the problem in the act of doorslamming so please feel free to chime in...

My assumptions:

1) Fi-doms operate on a currency of emotions exchanged in relationships:

You make me feel good you are a friend...I'll scan your emotional landscape and make you feel good in return in my presence...OTOH, you make me feel bad (regardless of whether you intented it or not?) I'll feel entitled (justified/fair) to ask you to sooth my feelings/make reparations or if you don't, I'll feel justified to make you feel bad (using the scanned emotional landscape data) even if you are a friend...? Hence, INFPs do not put emphasis on intentions of the other but the resultant effect of the other's actions regardless of external circumstances/rules/ regulations/frameworks? So if the other indirectly/unintentionally makes INFPs feel bad about themselves that still (i.e. when healthier methods fail) gives INFPs a casus-belli to intentionally inflict hurt on the other (and feel no remorse)?

2) Assuming #1 is "roughly" correct; From INFPs' perspective, when INFJs (or anyone else) doorslam/dump someone without due process of exchanging feelings (or salvos?) non-INFJs are accrued/inflicted a hurt/bad feeling but INFJs are not (they get away with it?), which causes an imbalance in feelings exchanged, which is unfair to the non-INFJ?

Is this "roughly" the core of the problem with the delivery method of the doorslam?

So INFPs here on the thread are not questioning INFJs' right to resort to doorslam end the relationship but their (INFJs') right (or rather lack thereof) to inflict unilateral hurt and not giving non-INFJs a chance to somehow discharge that bad feeling/energy/hurt (grieving process)?

Edit 2:

I was missing the discharge method of bad feelings need not always be negative...It may perhaps either be talking about how the breakup process makes each other feel and exhanging blessings and good feelings (that it was worth it, they valued each other, they will still be remembered etc.) about each other in the healthy INFP case or lashing out verbally to cause emotional anguish in the other (offloading the bad feeling) in the unhealthy INFP case...but the swiftness and no-contact policy of doorslam process removes the venue for non-INFJ to apply either the healthy or unhealthy approach (which may keep shifting momentarily between one extreme or the other depending on the perceived tone of the other party?)...?
 
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I haven't read most of the recent round of posts on this subject (doorslamming/INFJs/Fe), and I don't want to get pulled into a discussion. I just want to do a drive-by posting and drop off a personal impression and then back out of the discussion as quickly as possible.

Thus:

Everyone cuts off friendships when relations become problematic. If it's true that INFJs do it differently from others, then I think this is because of the way that INFJs form friendships in the first place. Comparing non-INFJs vs INFJs:

Non-INFJs tend to be kind of cold at first with new friends and only warm up slowly. And if there comes a point where it becomes necessary for a non-INFJ to cool down or break off relations with a new acquaintance or friend, it's not a big deal to cool the friendship back down again; the non-INFJ probably isn't invested heavily in the relationship in the first place.

INFJs, on the other hand, tend to come on warm and cordial with new friends and even total strangers right from the start. So if there comes a point where it becomes necessary for the INFJ to cool down or break off relations, it can seem a big contrast: The INFJ seemed like they really liked the hell out of you, and suddenly they're acting cool and aloof.

IOW, the difference lies in the contrast between how the relationship starts and ends: with non-INFJs the contrast isn't so great, whereas with INFJs the relationship is so warm right from the start that a cooling-down phase can seem rather cruel and out-of-the-blue.

I think the nature of Fe itself is part of the issue:

Fe seeks harmony and is empathetic. But it's also an organizational (judging) tool, like Te. So Fe-users tend to be exhibit a certain hot-and-cold aspect: Fe-users are empathetic and warm in some settings, but also rather cold-bloodedly manage relations and keep people at a distance in other settings (the "tier mechanism"**). When Fe is in the Dominant position, the contrast can be rather striking: ENFJs in particular are noted for a disparity between demonstrating a lot of personal warmth while simultaneously staying somewhat distant, to the point that they are often accused of glibness or insincerity in their relations with others. ESFJs are similarly very warm but also accused of being suffocating or even bullying. As for Fe in the Auxiliary, INFJs and ISFJs are noted for being cordial and empathetic but can also be avoidant at the same time.

Just for comparison: Fi works similarly. Fi is value-oriented. But it's also an organizational (judging) tool, like Ti. So Fi-users tend to exhibit a certain hot-and-cold aspect: Fi users are charitable/altruistic in some settings, but also seem very selfish or self-indulgent in other settings.

It's just the nature of Feeling; as a judging function (an organizational tool), Feeling can be schizophrenic (hot-and-cold) in how it gets exhibited to others.

To sum up:

Fe is a schizophrenic, hot-and-cold function. In INFJs in particular, it shows up as a cordiality and warmth early in the relationship that may create an impression of great investment in the relationship. But subsequently Fe will appear in its other aspect (managing relations and keeping people at a distance, IOW, the "tier mechanism"), resulting in a cooling and pushing-away that may be very unexpected to a non-Fe-user and come off as insulting or even catastrophic by contrast with the previous phase.

Just my personal impressions, of course. Okay, I'm done. *Backs out of the thread quickly.*

** The "tier mechanism": http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...7846&page=79&p=2138075&viewfull=1#post2138075
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Those are all legal obligations involving parental responsibility and property distribution and I would absolutely address those issues in the appropriate venue to the best of my ability. I would fight for my rights as a parent and joint property owner, but I would not insist that he resume our marriage or socialize with me.

Edit: And the stuff you describe happens all the time. All the time. Like I can name you a half dozen examples just off the top of my head of people doing stuff like that. It's not an INFJ thing. It's a sucky people thing.
Can I just say I love you, cafe! Everything you said I totally agree with, and I understand even the issue of someone close to you is better away than feeling forced to stay. Even [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION]'s example of a man leaving after getting a woman pregnant - if it were me? If he didn't love me and had negative feelings about the pregnancy, there is no way I would ever want to go through hormonal upheavals and physical vulnerability with someone like that. Send me the money and stay the hell away.

I just ended up in a mutual doorslam situation. My main issue for not resolving it is because I'm confused beyond belief. I was pushed to a psychological break of some strange sort and drove some inlaws away, but not before they said some rather hurtful things as well. I took them off my Facebook but just because I'm too stressed out to have them invade that part of my life. I did tell them afterwards in a text that I didn't have negative thoughts about them, but I wanted to let them know my partner and I had both left for work, so they could come by for their things without concern of us running into each other. I assume they hate me and that this is not fixable.

They were living with us and the tension built because of hyper-viligence towards everyone's needs but dismissal of mine, and somehow I lost control and screamed and yelled. It was 100% out of character, and the next morning I went into work, but was so dizzy I couldn't walk right, so the secretary canceled my appointments and I slept on the floor of my office all day. I kept having nightmarish images flashing into my mind.

What happened to me as an INFJ is that I had spent so long surrounded by people whose needs took precedence over mine. In some instance it was rightly so and in others it was the result of self-centered assumptions on the part of others. This resulted in me becoming unable to consciously identify my own preferences (which I still struggle with), and the increased pressure cause some type of subconscious eruption that I actually had no control over. I have zero idea what to say to these people, and I assume that everyone needs to be apart.

That is what it takes for me to doorslam, although it's not stubbornness on my part because I'm not hating on anyone, but it is what it is.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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INFPs exit from contact ALL.THE.TIME., so do INTPs, so people should stop calling the kettle black. The irony is in one way annoying, but in another quite entertaining.
 
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Edit: And the stuff you describe happens all the time. All the time. Like I can name you a half dozen examples just off the top of my head of people doing stuff like that. It's not an INFJ thing. It's a sucky people thing.

so far (since the conversation's yearly renewal) i've used "the doorslammers", "the solipsists", "people of that mentality", "people who defend their ego in [..] way"...

i think i've being rather careful about that, and i think the discussion beyond me has revolved around on the phenomena as a whole a lot more than about typology: while i realize that this can matter a great deal for someone who views INFJ as an element of their identity - but in the mean time we're talking about particular behaviors and common ways of thinking and emotional processes around them - it really doesn't matter if you call those knights that say Ni or the comabaya-my-lordians or chupacabra's, it's just a name, and and the only reason INFJs are of any interest is because the particular people in question seem to reside in the area where chupacabra's/solipsists/whatever and INFJs that overlap, a.k.a. "when an INFJ doorslams".

Those are all legal obligations involving parental responsibility and property distribution and I would absolutely address those issues in the appropriate venue to the best of my ability.
you think going to trial is being less forceful than trying to talk to them? either way, i think we're falling here into a weird game of appeals - the only sentiment i identify with from that would be that you wouldn't expect a romantic involvement, and i agree - i'd be hesitant to say i could even force myself to do that. beyond the why's, what you would or wouldn't do/feel/think doesn't really work as a delivery mechanism on why i should or shouldn't do (i realize it was probably more of a framework to express your dissonance, but just in case). here are the why's i see:

for the collective cases in general:
i think the expectation to be able to communicate & reason to resolve such consequences like a human being - especially with anyone you've being close too - is quite reasonable (so literally reasonable it hurts), and neither do i think the ability to do so should be restricted to negative consequences covered by law, i don't think it is unreasonable to expect any adult to be able to look at themselves. more so, i find the the counter arguments and their implications to be very unreasonable - and yes, rather negative (less towards the already doorslammed, more so towards the not-doorslammed-yet).

for my case specifically, the rational still stands:
if i can find any way to do it by peaceful means it would cause far less distress & be a lot less destructive to my son in the long term (even if causing me and her more distress in the short term), both because of the immediate process and the long term hostility that i don't expect either me or her to be able to hide- for her it would be because she'd perceive me as coming in forcefully (and representing a reality which conflicts with her ego), and for me it would be because every weekend my son would be going back to being raised by someone who believes she does nothing wrong no matter what she does, or in your version- "sucky people" - if there's a chance i can figure out how to create an environment without either i am sure as hell going to try.
not put all my eggs in one basket - considering the value i place in the results, i am not sure i would be ok with putting all my eggs in one basket even if i didn't have additional factors against me. but adding to it more, i am 1. not a citizen & 2. wasn't around for the sperm donation & 3. not the gender usually favored in cases in family law.
 

Southern Kross

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I have theory about how INFPs here see the problem in the act of doorslamming so please feel free to chime in...

My assumptions:

1) Fi-doms operate on a currency of emotions exchanged in relationships:

You make me feel good you are a friend...I'll scan your emotional landscape and make you feel good in return in my presence...OTOH, you make me feel bad (regardless of whether you intented it or not?) I'll feel entitled (justified/fair) to ask you to sooth my feelings/make reparations or if you don't make you feel bad (using the scanned emotional landscape data) even if you are a friend...? Hence, INFPs do not put emphasis on intentions of the other but the resultant effect of the other's actions regardless of external circumstances/rules/ regulations/frameworks? So if the other indirectly/unintentionally makes INFPs feel bad about themselves that still (i.e. when healthier methods fail) gives INFPs a casus-belli to intentionally inflict hurt on the other (and feel no remorse)?

2) Assuming #1 is "roughly" correct; From INFPs' perspective, when INFJs (or anyone else) doorslam/dump someone without due process of exchanging feelings (or salvos?) non-INFJs are accrued/inflicted a hurt/bad feeling but INFJs are not (they get away with it?), which causes an imbalance in feelings exchanged, which is unfair to the non-INFJ?

Is this "roughly" the core of the problem with the delivery method of the doorslam?
No, not at all really - sorry. I would say emotional currency is something I see more in Fe. Hmm, I'm just wondering what makes you say this and what you're trying to get at. This description is all so intention-driven it's hard for me to apply it to myself.

We do scan emotional landscapes and don't put stock in external frameworks, but it's not at all about the back and forth aspect between people. It's about the analysis of that particular landscape on it's own terms. I would say it's about the self-contained subjective logic of that other person and the meaning of it. We are very aware of and can be deeply affected by other people's emotional landscapes. I care about the internal state of a person (where their thoughts and feelings come from and what drives them) and the external outcomes/impacts that come from that (in other words, Fi moving into Te?). Sorry, I'm not sure how to describe this properly without going into great detail.

There are many things that offend me about the doorslam (note: I've only had the everyday/lesser kind, not a total shutdown - so I'm partially speaking in theory here): it makes my perspective feel invalidated; it bothers me to have feel like another person is dictating the terms of interaction and controlling me; the sense of injustice I feel; but also, the illogicality of it all really bothers me. The last point can matter more to INFPs than most people realise. Think of Fi as being much like Ti, but instead more focused on the analysis of human behaviour. We accept people are inherently messy creatures, but few things get us going more than a person claiming a position of rationality (or appearing to do so) and yet their thought-process/behaviour is full of logical fallacies. It actually offends my sensibilities and I feel a overwhelming urge to correct it. I can remember threads here where the NFPs got quite carried away with doing this.

Also I can't say I can agree that there's many (if any) situations where I consider it justifiable for me to inflict hurt on others. There may be times where it's accidental, and times where I'm callous and unthinking (because I'm being emotionally lazy), but rarely intentionally hurtful.

So INFPs here on the thread are not questioning INFJs' right to resort to doorslam but their (INFJs') right (or rather lack thereof) to inflict unilateral hurt and not giving non-INFJs a chance to somehow discharge that bad feeling/energy/hurt (grieving process)?
Sort of, partially...

To me, it feels like the INFJ is making objective claims about how things are (defining what the 'reality' of the situation is) that seem so distorted and is forcing that view on me, whilst shutting out my alternative theories. In a sense it does create a powerful build up of thoughts and emotions in myself, with nowhere to direct them and no way to resolve them (even internally - for myself).

I'm not sure if any of that helps.
 

cafe

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I guess what's weird to me is that you believe that there is a group of people that do this stuff. Like defective people that share characteristics. To me, it's fairly normal break-up behavior other than the factors that put almost all or all of the legal cards in your ex's hands. I don't think it's healthy, but it's too common for it to be some kind of disorder.

I would be surprised if at least half of all divorces did not have one party who did not want the marriage to end. Custody disputes where one parent tries to wrest the children and their affections away from the other parent -- or both parents do it -- very, very common. Otherwise normal people using their kids as weapons with little thought for how it impacts the kids or believing they are doing the right thing for their kids happens a lot. My state has no-fault divorce. It's very difficult to get an at-fault divorce here but when there are children involved, there are court-ordered parenting classes because this stuff really happens as often as not.

I'm not saying your ex is healthy and normal, but this particular type of behavior is not unusual. Her resources are what make it unusual. Under more normal circumstances, you would have some rights. You couldn't force her to interact with you socially, etc but you would be able to have some kind of mediation. She might not deal with you directly, but she could have someone represent her and you would at least be heard. A go-between could be appointed to facilitate visitation unless she could prove within reason that you were a danger or you could prove the same about her. That's why there are courts for all this, because people usually can't manage to just sit down and be reasonable with each other.
 

Tiltyred

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As I understand it, Mane got involved with a woman and her baby, became extremely attached, over time displeased the mother irrevocably, and was kicked out. He has no rights to assert, as far as I know. It's not his child.

Supposedly she is an INFJ, but who even knows about that.

As Cafe says, people do this stuff All. The. Time. What people who do this stuff have in common? They are human beings.
 

cafe

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As I understand it, Mane got involved with a woman and her baby, became extremely attached, over time displeased the mother irrevocably, and was kicked out. He has no rights to assert, as far as I know. It's not his child.

Supposedly she is an INFJ, but who even knows about that.

As Cafe says, people do this stuff All. The. Time. What people who do this stuff have in common? They are human beings.
Yep. It's the weird legal situation that makes it unusual. She left with the child and went to a country where she has citizenship and he does not. Most countries favor their own citizens. And not being a biological child makes it even more difficult. I don't know about the gender thing. I think my daughter read somewhere that when men actually attempt to get custody they have a fairly high chance of doing so. But that's in the US. Other places may not be that way.
 

yeghor

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Confused...

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION];

What I am trying to get at with that is that is the rough impression I get from INFP posts here...And I can grasp it if it is formulated/fleshed out in such a way...perhaps by real life "literal" narration of examples...

Regarding invalidation, there may be external (like social, legal) justifications/frameworks (that I identify with) that may compel me or make me feel justified to refuse someone else's perspective...

Perhaps this may serve as a simple example...A friend (X) tells me this story: there's this traffic light with a button for pedestrians to stop the traffic on a busy two way mainroad with a centre strip...X presses the button, cars stop...X crosses the road in a slow pace and reaches the centre strip even though X does not have any disabilities and might have crossed the road completely in one go if X increased pace...The traffic resumes again and then X stops the traffic once more to cross the other half of the road...A police officer nearby berates X for doing that on a busy road...X complains to me about this and I tell X that although X has a right to do that, X could have taken other people in the cars into consideration as well and could have increased pace so that like 20-30 more people wouldn't have to wait just for one person...X believes X can walk at whatever pace X wants and X cannot be forced to take external factors into consideration...

My comment to X for instance I believe invalidated X's feelings...and perhaps police officer's comment made X feel like being controlled/dictated? I, OTOH, do not want to have to lie to (or enable) a friend...I suck at soothing btw (I think Fi dom/aux are much better at it)...Is this what you mean by invalidation? I need you to give me a simple concrete/literal example where you were doorslammed and felt invalidated so that I can grasp it...

I am asking these questions so I can solidly see the issue...

By "dictating the terms of the interaction" do you mean you want to have the last word or do not want the other to have the last word? Or is this about having to submit to some external factor and you resent that because that triggers something (what)? What further action would you take in regards to the other if you weren't controlled by it?

Why the urge to correct another's process/behaviour unless it's causing you distress somehow? Why not simply accept it? How does illogicality of another's process affect you?

Are Fi-doms engaged in collecting and adding other people's emotional landscapes (patterns) into their repertoire like a Ti-dom would collect ideas or a Ni-dom would collect underlying patterns in human interactions? What purpose do those collections serve in a Fi-doms life? Does Fi repertoire try to build essential templates of human psyche with its strengths and weaknesses? And the Fi-dom adjusts his/her actions towards people wrt those templates? Do they serve a way for Fi-dom to navigate without stepping on other people's toes, to chart their course? What does the template tell a Fi-dom when he/she encounters another person? Does it tell him/her that this person is template Y, approach the person in this manner so that all can be well? So that the person can be disarmed?

Is there something wrong with the INFJ template? That it does not give accurate readings?

Southern Kross said:
To me, it feels like the INFJ is making objective claims about how things are (defining what the 'reality' of the situation is) that seem so distorted and is forcing that view on me, whilst shutting out my alternative theories. In a sense it does create a powerful build up of thoughts and emotions in myself, with nowhere to direct them and no way to resolve them (even internally - for myself).

^^ Can the INFJ be feeling the same imposing and frustration from his/her perspective? So why not go separate ways or agree to disagree? Does INFJs' blocking arouse feelings in you that you have somehow been the "bad/wrong/false" side in the interaction and you need an urge to convince yourself that is not the case and that causes you distress?

I hope this does not derail the thread...
 

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In any case, she clearly wants to be rid of him. There's not a lot to do but take it like a man and move on. Which might make me sound unsympathetic; I'm not, entirely - but this is the set of facts that engendered all the anti-INFJ talk, and when you boil it down ...
 

Eilonwy

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Fly-by post. I really should be getting my mom ready for the day, so this might seem somewhat out-of-place, but it's something that occurred to me, mostly from [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION]'s post. There are more posts I'd like to reply to, but that will have to wait until I find time.

I've decided to ask my sister and her husband for a break from our weekly dinners. That doesn't sound like a big deal, but because of my past experiences with my family, what's been happening in my head is that I start imagining their response and planning on my own reaction (I'm sure there's some good typological explanation for that involving Ni somehow). And the response I imagine is mostly worst case scenario--bro-in-law will take it personally, get offended, and bite my head off. Or both of them will take it as a social slight and tell us to never come back for dinner ever again. Or they will see it as a taking away of their only opportunity to help with mom in a way that they are willing to help, so they will desperately try to keep us from taking a break.

I do this a lot. Imagine responses and plan for them. And since there's not much reason to plan for the best, I tend to go for the worst. And then I feel dread. And I don't want to even tell them. I think that maybe I don't really need the break, or I think of other ways to get out of speaking up and facing the real response because the imaginary ones already feel horrible to me and I want to avoid more horrible feelings. So then I put off asking for what I need. I might rationalize it to myself as knowing how my family acts, which is true to an extent. Or maybe I'll tell myself I don't want to hurt their feelings. But by doing that I'm not giving them the chance to react. They might react well. I really can't know. And even if they do react badly, so what? It's a pain in the ass for me to have to keep repeating what I want to them when they don't listen, but it's gotten them to stop pouring Pepsi's for me when I don't want them (finally). And telling them sooner, rather than later has avoided a big blow up on my part. The thing is, I've made a small deal into a big deal in my own head before I've even tested it in reality to see if it actually will be a big deal. Then if it turns out to be a big deal, I've just added that to the already big deal in my head. So now it's an even bigger deal all the way around, AND I can justify that by telling myself that I called it in the first place and that they are just unreasonable people.

Thing is, for the most part, when I've gone ahead and asked them for stuff like a break from the weekly dinners, they were actually more reasonable than I would have given them credit for. Not always, but most of the time.

I can see where some of my own thought processes can be attributable to type; however, I don't know enough to actually point out what functions might be involved and in what way they're involved. Ni and Fe are in there somewhere.
 

Tiltyred

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If you feel invalidated nearly every time in a given interaction, it's only reasonable you will look for ways to fix that. You can avoid or you can confront, or you can decide it's all funny and fine, but to escape the bad feeling, you have to do something. Depends on your style, depends on how much energy you have to give to that particular facet of your present existence. It sounds like getting them to stop pouring you Pepsis you don't want took quite some effort, and that's a small thing. I imagine the Pepsi is just the tip of the iceberg. So it's no wonder you're asking to be excused.
 

Fidelia

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I can identify with doing what you are talking about. It is generally done because I'm bad at thinking on my feet and need to know what I would do in a given situation. I also am learning that by twisting myself to accommodate any disagreements before they even happen is not fair to either party. In theory, I understand that facing things head on is best and that often something productive comes out of conflict. As we speak now though, I'm dreading a meeting tonight (just a visceral, involuntary emotional response), even though objectively I understand that only good things can come out of it.). One of the reasons my time in the north was so memorable was that it was the first time my frustration was so constant and unworkable that I really had to fight some things out. In every case it ended up being a positive thing, although dealing with it that way wouldn't have been my first choice.
 

Eilonwy

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I'm trying to point out that there might actually be a typological reason for the thought process behind the doorslam. I think INFJs probably got dealt a crappy hand with our combo of functions in the order they're in. All introverts are going to be somewhat more divorced from reality just because their dom function is internal and symbolic instead of realistic.

With what little I know about the functions, here's my take on INFJ:
Ni = imagined possibilities
Fe = based in reality, but abstract decision making
Ti = concrete, but symbolic, decision making
Se = reality-based perception

I think it's possible for us to become detached from reality more easily than most because our only external and concrete function is our weakest. No, that's not our fault (and it's not other people's fault either), but knowing this can maybe help in finding work-arounds to our own handicaps. It's unfortunate for us, but that might be the reality of it.

ETA: I keep being reminded of when my ex and I took sign language classes and learned about deaf culture. Some deaf people want nothing to do with hearing people at all, to the point that they will shun any deaf people who do want to interact with the hearing, not to mention those deaf people who get implants in order to hear. They can't help their handicap, but they still have choices about how to interact with others.

To try to tie it all in, it's possible that the complaints against certain INFJ thought processes (and blind spots) are valid. It doesn't mean that we can "fix" our thought processes, because we likely can't, but we can at least work around them in a way that is fair to both parties. But first we have to be aware of it. I think the people in this thread have been asking only for the awareness.
 
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