[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[BalanceFind]

I appreciate the input, and not offense to you, but you don't have an accurate characterization of the relationship.

I had a healthy relationship with this person for a long time. I didn't spoil this person with money. I've been very clear, that this person and I have had a 50/50 relationship financially. We both paid and contributed equally, over 9 years, on and off. Only at the end, did this person get overly financially indulgent. And, this person spent all of her own money first. It wasn't a master plan scam. The end result may appear that way to others and feel that way to me, but it wasn't the original plan of hers.

I'm very responsible with money. And, much of the time, so is she. Though, she isn't, always. This property was and is an excellent long term investment. That isn't the issue or question for either of us. I'm not extravagant with money. I live within my means.

I think you may have a misunderstanding regarding extravagance, self-indulgence etc...and what are considered small, medium, large, compared to one's individual means. I've repeatedly said this person spent 50/50 with me on daily life. This person was and is very independent, educated, successful professionally, etc.. You haven't been reading my posts very closely if you think I'm a sugar daddy.

I'm not wondering why my relationships have failed. ?

Infj's are providing feedback here, as are other personality types too. All are welcome.

I've done much self-reflection.

I've mentioned from the beginning that I exhibit characteristics of both an Entp and enfp. I am not seeking feedback on that. I know who I am good, bad and indifferent. When I was younger, as in growing up as a kid, I was more of an Estp/Esfp type. I know myself well, good, bad, and indifferent.

This situation for me is about doorslams, in particular with infj types. And fedback was sought from both infj types and other types, here, about them...as well as sharing my experience.

I have a couple of weeks before I am flying to this other country. I will be going to my house, with other people. I will be meeting with attorneys. I will be meeting with friends. I'm unable to go there for a couple of weeks.

I chose originally to wait the 5 months for multiple reasons. I chose self-restraint, one of the healthier aspects of my types. I was patient. I didn't know if her actions were temporary or not. It would have been difficult for me to turn right around to go back there. I then chose during the Holidays, to spend them with some family. I still own the house with her. The house, isn't going anywhere. It's a few months longer than I normally would like in terms of going back there. I had some other things to take care of and did so.

As I stated before, I'm the type of person who takes care of problems right away, as objectively as possible, for the best benefit for all. But I understand it takes others more time to sort through thoughts, feelings, etc...so I waited for that. But what I've come to conclude is that she isn't doing those things. She has been avoiding reality, not working on it with the time and space given. So, reality will now come to her.

Thx for the feedback.

First of all, I've been checking this thread and felt [MENTION=14749]BalanceFind[/MENTION] seem not be able to move on and straighten out the legal matter as that seems to be on his first priority now.

I somehow suspect what kind of relationship this really is. It seems to me that you're spoiling her with money even if you're not happy with her extravagant spendings. What confuses me further is that it seems one of the cornerstone of this relationship is all stemmed from financial support. I think you tried hard to explain the whole picture and the problems you've been facing, yet I still felt that some parts of puzzle is missing.

And I suppose you have a hard time accepting the fact that she had doorslammed you after providing all supports for her. Though I'm suspicious of if this is a healthy relationship to begin with. Are you both attached before forming this relationship? Anyhow, if you want advice from INFJs, I think most of us had offered you, even though you seem not to accept it fully as more new background stories have been piling up.

It's quite sad to see someone to go through in a denial out of resentment. Though I think if you really wonder why your relationships have failed, I would suggest you to invest some time of self-reflection through introspection on your mistakes from this doomed relationship. Perhaps it'll help you to avoid following the same pattern in ruining your next romance.

On a side note, I felt you resemble more of an ENTP under stressed mode rather than ENFP. Also, I've learned a lot from reading ENP/INJ's POV that's derived from your dilemma.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Thanks for your response. Just a few more questions ...

I said no because I didn't have the money to give.

And you communicated that message, but whether she fully believed it or not is another question, correct?

She asked "when" not if the next large sum of money was coming. ... She pouted.

Did she say anything then, before pouting?

There may have been a disconnect in terms of her thinking I was just saying no but really had plenty more to give. I was clear. But she was in a state of mind where facts didn't matter. All she heard was me not enhancing her dream. And all she cared about was how quickly she pay for this and that of expensive nice things for this new home.

Has this happened before to her, in the past? Where someone didn't "come through" financially?

 

[BalanceFind]

This is much more my preferred way of communicating.

Before, I answer, let me add one thing...imo, my infj got upset about some things, big and small, some about me, some that have nothing to do with me, that led this door slam. However, a big issue here for me is REALITY. It's okay to have feelings, be upset, and that's important and has value, and I'd be happy to listen and interact and help those things...but...in this situation for example...it's gone from that to serious avoidance of reality on her part. She's gotten to the level where by not checking in, she incorrectly believes some non-facts to be facts and the opposite. This behavior by her is causing me a lot of harm and, will cause herself a lot of harm. She is in a state of mind of where reality is whatever she thinks, needs, and wants it to be right now, and not actual reality. This is not common or normal for her with me. I do believe it has happened with her before in her life though. I did not know if it was a short or long phase or permanent. I've been waiting for her to get back to reality, to face reality. Once reality is taken care of, then we can all go back to our feelings and other issues.

Did I communicate that message? Yes. But, I do believe that it's possible that it didn't register for her right away. She was fixated on solving her immediate financial problems. She was fixated on all the things that needed to be done on the new place. These things cost money. Obviously to a balanced person, these things are phased in over time.

Let me add something important. Prior to me wiring the final large lump some payment, which meant relief, that the major costs/payments were over...she became surprisingly, out of the blue panicky. She was very worried whether or not I would come through. I'm talking irrational panic. I know she knows the amount was more than anticipated. When I said, wait, this is more than originally thought, that's when she became worried. It was still within reason, but definitely more than she originally mentioned. The reason wasn't deception by her. Costs became a little bit higher than anticipated.

One little remark by me asking about the money total, triggered past events by her. She out of the blue mentioned her ex and how he promised things that never happened for her. She also referenced generally a few others who did this to her in life. These people are her mother and brother. I don't know any of these people. I've never met them. My point is that her response and worry was needless and disproportionate the situation. She had no reason to doubt anything. All I did was ask about the new higher total. I knew it was a stressful situation, and I was busy taking care of all of that at the time. I chose to back off because that was long distance, phone, skype, magic jack, email. After that I didn't discuss the money or payments until it was time to finish them. I did this because money is a topic I'm never comfortable talking with her. If you mentioned money with her, it starts a problem with her.

The three people I mentioned, she does not have a good relationship with...her mom is deceased, they had bad relationship from what she has told me. She's long deceased. Her brother she hasn't spoken with in many years or decades, falling out. She has periodically referenced her ex, negatively, but not often, and I don't ask, nor did I care.

So what you see here is this event combined with other stress big and small, triggered her into not getting her reality and facts straight.

In car, she was already pouting a little from that arrival greeting mix up. That walk on egg shells deal. Crabby. I didn't think her reaction was proportionate to the event. Anyway, with the car comment, I'd say it was the only time I was a little snippy and short in y response. It really wasn't all that big of a deal...but when she is walk on eggshells, I know how it goes. Anyway, I said no, short and firm....because I knew she was not acting "right" for her. Huge disconnect with money. She snipped back, nothing really audible under her breath, few words tops, but it was immediate, upset.


She then stopped the little things that we do daily...cooking for me etc...it was obvious at that point it was a big deal for her. I thought she'd be okay in a day or two. She wasn't. I didn't say anything but I was not happy with her behavior. I tried to get her to talk about it. I never once thought I'd get door slammed. We spent 24/7 together after that, pretty much.

QUOTE=PeaceBaby;1785528]Thanks for your response. Just a few more questions ...



And you communicated that message, but whether she fully believed it or not is another question, correct?



Did she say anything then, before pouting?



Has this happened before to her, in the past? Where someone didn't "come through" financially?[/QUOTE]

 

[PeaceBaby]

What comes to mind is that this was some sort of test, not necessarily a fair or rational one, but a test nonetheless ... let me think about it a little more before I reply fully and flesh that out.

 

[BalanceFind]

No problem.

As I mentioned, this was not a money only situation, and still isn't, but, money has become the top priority for me. It's as if I'm willing to say, let me make sure I'm comfortable with the solution to the house/money etc...we get that done to my satisfaction...and then...and only then...will I gladly sit down and listen until the cows come home. Test me all you want then.

Remember I tried for 5 months to wait, to listen, to apologize, to talk about feelings, and a few times when an email connected with her, she responded.

Imo it's as if as she declined, I was becoming more of a rescuer for her, to pump her up until some of our hard work was going to pay off more in tangibles. She couldn't hold out a little longer until she moved. The delay was too much. The delay continued until Jan 2012 for moving. Most of the rescuer pump up stuff was NOT financial. I encouraged her to get back to her old self by being productive daily...and...she did...through work, exercise, diet, socialization, dance, she's a well trained dancer as a hobby.

When I said there is no more money, at first she didn't believe me or want to believe me. Then when it sunk in for her over email a month or two later...it didn't matter...she was not capable of going back or being more realistic.

My moving there more full time was delayed. Our moving into the new home was delayed. Her not being so isolated on her own as much was delayed.

She started become jealous of local friends there. Not outwardly. It's when someone thinks others have it better than themselves. That's a bad path to think that way...and it wasn't true.

I could and should have done some things differently or better too. One is pda, public displays of affection. I'm talking about innocent things, nothing overt. Neither of us were like that. But I was much different in private with overt affection than public. I could have shown it more because I knew she was a little insecure with that. I did my best. I was fine overall I think with that. These are the fault type things of mine. Those are easily worked out meet in the middle type of things. I won't be dismissive as saying they are minor or don't have value. They do. However, imo there's a large discrepancy between these things and whether or not someone lives in a house or pays someone very large sums of money. There is a disconnect there. She's intent on these other things first. To me, that isn't realistic.
Another thing, is it is as if she has amnesia when she's under stress. She has accomplished so much, she's had so much for which to be grateful, relationship, friends, experiences. When healthy she knows that.

Because she doesn't check in, I don't know her thoughts on the money, other than she mentions it a lot about paying me back before I ever do. I won't let her keep the house and money, not both. I have now compromised that she can have one or the other. This was a big compromise for me. I wanted to live in that particular house.

Everyone has limits. She tested me long and hard. But I have limits. Limits with regards to money and bills. Limits in terms of isolating me from our friends. She is scared that I'll dump her for our other friends, many female. She said irrationally that they are "her" friends, not our friends. That wasn't true. She has said something to them but I'm not sure what yet. They all of a sudden won't talk with me. I'm talk sweet salt of earth people to. These people were talking with me until I mentioned the infj name, then poof, nothing, vanished. Weird. However the infj told me almost directly that she was going to intentionally stay friends with them and see to it they wouldn't be friends with me. This was out of spite and fear of abandonment imo. Well, I'm now forced to tell these friends the truth. They will be stunned. At first they won't believe me, until I show them proof. And yes, I won't walk away from our friends and other relations.

She is an infj...and very much acts like one. She is 4 most of time. She acts like avg 2 once in a while under stress. With only me privately she could be an average nitpicking 1 under stress, not in puiblic much. That is her possessive jealous stage. She acts like narcissistic 3 only in public sometimes, not at home because she knows she can be herself at all times with me. But image does matter to her in public. And that image is elegant I would say, in all senses of the word.

So that's some more info.

What comes to mind is that this was some sort of test, not necessarily a fair or rational one, but a test nonetheless ... let me think about it a little more before I reply fully and flesh that out.

 

[sculpting]

I still think Balancefind is an enfp-he is dumping Te everywhere. Also the extremely blantant requests for DIRECT conversation and questions are very Te. A few have noted the emphasis on money-it isnt really about power I suspect, as much as that financial responsibility springs from our baby Te growing in. We can get oddly neurotic about it in a way that seems OCD as Te stuff gives us a sense of security.


"Everyone has limits. She tested me long and hard. But I have limits. Limits with regards to money and bills. Limits in terms of isolating me from our friends. She is scared that I'll dump her for our other friends, many female. She said irrationally that they are "her" friends, not our friends. That wasn't true. She has said something to them but I'm not sure what yet. They all of a sudden won't talk with me. I'm talk sweet salt of earth people to. These people were talking with me until I mentioned the infj name, then poof, nothing, vanished. Weird. However the infj told me almost directly that she was going to intentionally stay friends with them and see to it they wouldn't be friends with me. This was out of spite and fear of abandonment imo. Well, I'm now forced to tell these friends the truth. They will be stunned. At first they won't believe me, until I show them proof. And yes, I won't walk away from our friends and other relations."

^^This is amazingly descriptive of an ENFP exhibiting a tertiary temptation response via Te- "I must prove to the world, that I didnt do anything wrong and that my actions are fully and completely justified. I did the right thing in this interaction....see? see?.. here's proof. I did the right thing. "

The first sentance also comes close to a Te Bitchslap. "I WILL NOT tolerate you treating me this way. I have boundaries and barriers and lines that are just not okay to cross...*stomps foot*"

oh, dear, I have totally been through something that resembles this. It sucks because I felt compelled to explain that I didnt do anything wrong and I was really were acting in a reasonable way-the result was that I ended up acting like a crazy person and hounding everyone around me with the story to prove my point.

we are but spiders in a web, tapping the web to see if the world still exists...

I'd almost say it is an odd Fi thing-to have a flawed or broken Fi leads to being a flawed or broken person-thus prone to utter condemnation and rejection. I'll describe how this workd in my brain, but I warn you it is a bit dark. In an interaction of this sort, for me, the goal is:

1) to work with the other person to understand what Fi rules broke that resulted in the confusion. But when the other person wont talk to you, you are stuck trying to sort all the garbage out your self and it becomes really hard to understand what is your and what is theirs in terms of blame.

2)Logically, god damned logically, you KNOW what the answer should be. You know the right answer for everyone else and it is very reasonable and is common sense. You could easily determine for another in the same situation what the answer should be. You are never to be blamed for everything, that is ridiculous.

3) Unfortunately, I am programmed Ne Fi, then Te, so the Fi overrules the common sense Te answer and it ends up in this nasty horrible cycle where the answers conflict badly and I absorb the blame into myself-as I cant figure out alone how to split the blame up between us. I cant properly determine the level of blame, thus this can end with me in a state of hurt. Fi says "it is NEVER okay to hurt another", thus I condemn myself, in spite of the common sense Te answer-EVERYTHING is my fault.

4) but it isnt all my fault (Te) that's stupid

4) Then I look outwards with Te towards bystanders-"Hey, look, really this wasnt my fault, I tried to do all this stuff, and I didnt do anything wrong, and I did all these right things...but this still happened. Some of the blame must lie with that other person, right? Right? " Unspoken-please tell me this wasnt all my fault, please let me know that my values and worldview are not totally incorrect, that I am a good person still. I (Te) know that I am good (Look at all this Te evidence-things I can point to in the real world around me (number or emails sent, money given, things I did), but until people vocally tell me (Ne) it wasnt my fault and help me understand what I should own-I (Fi) cant help but feel that it is my fault.​

also-he is listening to what you guys say-first, I think he is getting the hang of the quotes, second, he is addressing you as a group Te auidiance, thus rather than one at a time, he just posts to everyone (dont know anybody else that does that *cough cough*)

He is also communicating almost entirely reflectively, rather than actively.

Balancefind, you are an awesome guy and you did all the right stuff-I'd suggest not ranting to mutual friends as they'll think your nuts. And no, the desire to talk through the issue will never, ever go away. Just the nature of the world.

*******************************************************

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] I think you bring up a good point regarding the enfps not getting the message regarding annoying NFJs unintentionally. I have done this several times, and been totally unaware.

On my end, it feels like I am talking to another NFP. When an NFP gets emo, you talk them down by taking a more Te tone and just look past all the frustrated emotion-you dont ignore it, but you talk past it. The assumption is that the other person will be more reasonable once they calm down a bit...so if they seem to be even more emo, you just get more logical.

If they respond with more emo, then I think, "hmmm, I dont think they understood my trying to be reasonable...maybe if I reexplain it this way instead." and we just keep explaining from different perspectives with Ne (@iwaker - this can seem like twisted rationale or reasoning, although the entps may take this to an art form and really aim to logically manipulate.)

Finally the NFJ-the whole time seeking to use emotion as a request for an action, gets more and more angry, then says "Why do you keep rationalizing your behavior?" and gets very pointed. I go "What? I dont understand..." then I figure they hate me, and feeling a bit hurt, just avoid them as I dont want to bother them or get my feelings hurt again. I just withdraw and try not to get in their way after that. I also then become even more "rational" when I interact with them.

(@cascadco and @ fidelia , thank you so much for your INFJ advice in the other thread from a few weeks ago. I have been working crazy 60 hours weeks and didnt even mean to post the crazy long post I just did, so sorry I didnt respond!!)

 

[BalanceFind]

Actually I've responded to people both generally, and individually. And, that's pretty consistent with who I am as a person. I can an often do both interchangeably depending on the situation. My preference is direct communication, one at a time, and I would answer anyone who directly responded to me, as long as it was done so in a reasonably respectful fashion imo.

I've been very clear about my personality type. I know myself well. As kid I exhibited characteristics of both Estp and Esfp depending on the circumstance. And as adult that changed to Entp/Enfp. I'm always "T" first. But I'm very much in touch with my feeling side. I am not someone who needs or seeks group consensus to proceed as one might say an Enfp would need. And, conflict does not bother nor deter me nor my beliefs or opinions. I'm very open minded and non-judgemental, and I can always add subtract or change a thought or feeling etc...if I believe experience and/or new info would lead me to do so.

I proceeded on my own at that the time and for 5 months. I have to wait a few weeks for my flight in order to both save $1000 and because two week National Holidays there are making it difficult for flights and hotels. Bad timing on my part.

So, I'm still here without new personal experience to share in the situation. That is why much of my conversation may seem reflective to the person above this post.

As is common for Entp's and Enfp's learning is a combo of individual study first, for a while, and then exchange of info, ideas, questions, thoughts, etc...with others...and then finished by back to self.

I'm always open to learning. I don't believe I have all of the answers nor all the knowledge. As I stated, I'm here to help myself and others. And, that's what I've done.

 

[BalanceFind]

...Wanted to add to the above post above mine...my purpose is the most beneficial resolution for the most people. In order to achieve that, preparation meets opportunity. First you learn and understand and prepare as best as possible, then you take action definitive action.

Strategic action is what and whom I'm bringing to my new home, and when, why, and how. What will I do if this and that happens...etc...

Knowledge and preparation get you to the situation/confrontation. You keep this in mind while reading and reacting reflexively in the actual situation, and make adjustments to maximize the outcome.

In my situation low levels of narcissistic enneagram 3 in are in play here, among other things. That's a difficult person and/or situation with which to deal.

 

[BalanceFind]

When my situation first happened, it wasn't about money to me. I didn't think it was going to be about money, because I didn't think this was going to be more than an "easy" fix of back and forth discussion w/ my infj about feelings/emotions/facts/reality so that we'd be back on same page, whether that was together or separate ways.

My first instinct after the door slam was money. Why? Because that was the significant trigger at that time imo. Imo she made it look like other things, but to me that wasn't true, it was about money. She needed/wanted more, and I said no firmly. She was surprised I said no so firmly and I was surprised she asked. She should have known because I was upfront all along.

That's when it became about money. This is big money. I have big financial responsibilities. That's life. I'm not about money....unless or until you try to steal my house andvery large sums of my cash. Seems simple. It wasn't extravagant. It was well thought out living and investing.

Once a huge financial and communication line was crossed at same time...it has become all about getting back what is mine first. And, it is doing so in the most painless way for me and everyone else. I don't have the time, money, etc...for nasty stress, games etc...

She is living in a world of doing things on HER time. That's the problem. That's the disconnect. She's a very convincing actress that I would and will get paid and that she's been working hard on it. But as is often the case with narcissists, it doesn't add up. I know of one properry in particular that she could sign over to me asap, then I would do the work of selling etc...and working out the money...etc...but she never once thought to sell that property. So, if she wanted me to go away, she could have done so 5 months ago or any time since. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

So, an infj 4w3 who let a lot of the low level 3 stuff interfere with her decision-making...which never happened with her and me before. I'm dealing with someone who is not imo behaving in a stable manner, which is also new for me with this person. So that affects my decisions. Time and space and supportive from a distance was not a good decision in hindsight. And, it's not one I normally make. That's frustrating.

And yes, I do need to sit down with several friends and colleagues there and painstakingly prove this to them to keep my relationships with them. She is lying to these people, false image and she thinks I'm just going to go away. It's a huge avoidance of the situation.

I have no idea what she is telling people, doing, saying, thinking...I've recently tried to find that out directly and indirectly to improve my strategy for myself. I can very easily move from understanding, patient, loving, supportive, to bringing the hammer down as last resort (metaphorically).

I still think Balancefind is an enfp-he is dumping Te everywhere. Also the extremely blantant requests for DIRECT conversation and questions are very Te. A few have noted the emphasis on money-it isnt really about power I suspect, as much as that financial responsibility springs from our baby Te growing in. We can get oddly neurotic about it in a way that seems OCD as Te stuff gives us a sense of security.


"Everyone has limits. She tested me long and hard. But I have limits. Limits with regards to money and bills. Limits in terms of isolating me from our friends. She is scared that I'll dump her for our other friends, many female. She said irrationally that they are "her" friends, not our friends. That wasn't true. She has said something to them but I'm not sure what yet. They all of a sudden won't talk with me. I'm talk sweet salt of earth people to. These people were talking with me until I mentioned the infj name, then poof, nothing, vanished. Weird. However the infj told me almost directly that she was going to intentionally stay friends with them and see to it they wouldn't be friends with me. This was out of spite and fear of abandonment imo. Well, I'm now forced to tell these friends the truth. They will be stunned. At first they won't believe me, until I show them proof. And yes, I won't walk away from our friends and other relations."

^^This is amazingly descriptive of an ENFP exhibiting a tertiary temptation response via Te- "I must prove to the world, that I didnt do anything wrong and that my actions are fully and completely justified. I did the right thing in this interaction....see? see?.. here's proof. I did the right thing. "

The first sentance also comes close to a Te Bitchslap. "I WILL NOT tolerate you treating me this way. I have boundaries and barriers and lines that are just not okay to cross...*stomps foot*"

oh, dear, I have totally been through something that resembles this. It sucks because I felt compelled to explain that I didnt do anything wrong and I was really were acting in a reasonable way-the result was that I ended up acting like a crazy person and hounding everyone around me with the story to prove my point.

we are but spiders in a web, tapping the web to see if the world still exists...

I'd almost say it is an odd Fi thing-to have a flawed or broken Fi leads to being a flawed or broken person-thus prone to utter condemnation and rejection. I'll describe how this workd in my brain, but I warn you it is a bit dark. In an interaction of this sort, for me, the goal is:

1) to work with the other person to understand what Fi rules broke that resulted in the confusion. But when the other person wont talk to you, you are stuck trying to sort all the garbage out your self and it becomes really hard to understand what is your and what is theirs in terms of blame.

2)Logically, god damned logically, you KNOW what the answer should be. You know the right answer for everyone else and it is very reasonable and is common sense. You could easily determine for another in the same situation what the answer should be. You are never to be blamed for everything, that is ridiculous.

3) Unfortunately, I am programmed Ne Fi, then Te, so the Fi overrules the common sense Te answer and it ends up in this nasty horrible cycle where the answers conflict badly and I absorb the blame into myself-as I cant figure out alone how to split the blame up between us. I cant properly determine the level of blame, thus this can end with me in a state of hurt. Fi says "it is NEVER okay to hurt another", thus I condemn myself, in spite of the common sense Te answer-EVERYTHING is my fault.

4) but it isnt all my fault (Te) that's stupid

4) Then I look outwards with Te towards bystanders-"Hey, look, really this wasnt my fault, I tried to do all this stuff, and I didnt do anything wrong, and I did all these right things...but this still happened. Some of the blame must lie with that other person, right? Right? " Unspoken-please tell me this wasnt all my fault, please let me know that my values and worldview are not totally incorrect, that I am a good person still. I (Te) know that I am good (Look at all this Te evidence-things I can point to in the real world around me (number or emails sent, money given, things I did), but until people vocally tell me (Ne) it wasnt my fault and help me understand what I should own-I (Fi) cant help but feel that it is my fault.​

also-he is listening to what you guys say-first, I think he is getting the hang of the quotes, second, he is addressing you as a group Te auidiance, thus rather than one at a time, he just posts to everyone (dont know anybody else that does that *cough cough*)

He is also communicating almost entirely reflectively, rather than actively.

Balancefind, you are an awesome guy and you did all the right stuff-I'd suggest not ranting to mutual friends as they'll think your nuts. And no, the desire to talk through the issue will never, ever go away. Just the nature of the world.

*******************************************************

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] I think you bring up a good point regarding the enfps not getting the message regarding annoying NFJs unintentionally. I have done this several times, and been totally unaware.

On my end, it feels like I am talking to another NFP. When an NFP gets emo, you talk them down by taking a more Te tone and just look past all the frustrated emotion-you dont ignore it, but you talk past it. The assumption is that the other person will be more reasonable once they calm down a bit...so if they seem to be even more emo, you just get more logical.

If they respond with more emo, then I think, "hmmm, I dont think they understood my trying to be reasonable...maybe if I reexplain it this way instead." and we just keep explaining from different perspectives with Ne (@iwaker - this can seem like twisted rationale or reasoning, although the entps may take this to an art form and really aim to logically manipulate.)

Finally the NFJ-the whole time seeking to use emotion as a request for an action, gets more and more angry, then says "Why do you keep rationalizing your behavior?" and gets very pointed. I go "What? I dont understand..." then I figure they hate me, and feeling a bit hurt, just avoid them as I dont want to bother them or get my feelings hurt again. I just withdraw and try not to get in their way after that. I also then become even more "rational" when I interact with them.

(@cascadco and @ fidelia , thank you so much for your INFJ advice in the other thread from a few weeks ago. I have been working crazy 60 hours weeks and didnt even mean to post the crazy long post I just did, so sorry I didnt respond!!)

 

[Anaita]

In regards to whether or not an INFJ can be a narcissist...I wonder if introverts are really a good candidate for this disorder. As I understand it narcissistic supply is the motivator, it's something they can only get from interactions with other people. Without other people from which to obtain this supply they are unhappy,low-energy, or volatile. This kind of person would not need or want to spend much time alone. I imagine there are some narcissists who probably type themselves as INFJ (particularly covert narcissists), because that's the image of themselves that they have. Those people who thrive on appearing to be a saint or savior, who protect their fragile self image by pointing out all of the people who "need" them and who they've "helped."

 

[BalanceFind]

Imo narcissists are both covert and overt. At first when average, meaning not as healthy, narcissists use covert action to gain recognition. If this fails and they get worse, their narcissism becomes more overt, as in look at me. If this fails and they get worse, then the nasty, ruthless destroying others comes into play if not a return to a more averge or better healthier state.

My infj is enneagram 4w3 wing. So, she has a narcissistic wing. However, prior to this she kept in check much better.

There is another old thread about unhealthy infj's. It talks a lot about unhealthy infj's and shoing characteristics of low level Estp's when unhealthy. The thread could have been taken from my life. That's what happened to me. My infj didn't previously show a lot of low level Estp type behavior, and certainly not for any extended period either. It's so different from being a reasonably healthy infj. It's so stunning, in a bad way.

So short of police and legal means, I tried to help myself and others solve this mess. By disappearing she made the mess far worse than need be for herself and others. It caused several people great pain.

I was hoping with time and space that she would be able to overcome the low level Estp type behavior. That didn't happen. It's gotten worse if anything. I can see how anmd why things snow balled for her and transpired the way they did. But the conclusion will be disastrous for her in the end because she didn't want to face up to her mistakes. She was scared of humiliation imo. That certainly saddens me and angers me considering I was one of a few that knew almost everything about her beyond the image. And, I was one of few she could turn to in trouble. Instead she chose to save herself and step on me, because it was going to cause her least amounts of public humiliation to her image.

It's choosing unrealistic idealized image over something so much better. ...someone that would stand by you and love you unconditionally no matter what. That's a shame.

For me, I don't have punishing desires. But I have to help myself and others, no choice.

Narcissistic behavior was a big factor in my situation.

In regards to whether or not an INFJ can be a narcissist...I wonder if introverts are really a good candidate for this disorder. As I understand it narcissistic supply is the motivator, it's something they can only get from interactions with other people. Without other people from which to obtain this supply they are unhappy,low-energy, or volatile. This kind of person would not need or want to spend much time alone. I imagine there are some narcissists who probably type themselves as INFJ (particularly covert narcissists), because that's the image of themselves that they have. Those people who thrive on appearing to be a saint or savior, who protect their fragile self image by pointing out all of the people who "need" them and who they've "helped."

 

[Tiltyred]

You have done everything a person could reasonably be expected to do, and then some. Now handle your business, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[BalanceFind]

A question I have is whether or not an unhealthy infj, who's behaving like an unhealthy Estp, and unhealthy enneagram 3...can this person dig themselves out of that and back to an average or healthy infj?

I waited for that to happen. Imo 5 months is a very long time. I realize it's not to an unhealthy infj.

By bringing the hammer down so to speak, something I didn't want to have to do, but have to do...initially things will be worse for all, and unpredictable too in a bad way. It will set off my infj once word gets back to her. I do have the ability to think of the many years of good/great aspects of my infj. I'm reminded of them daily. And, I do hope in the end to be a non-financially supportive friend from a distance for her for life. I know that's probably a 1% chance of happening. Part of me thought that if I could get her to come clean, and address and solve these living and financial situations asap, that the 1% chance would be much higher and more realistic of a possibility.

I don't have much of a choice now as I await my flight soon. I know it will be difficult to convince some people of her actions. They will be stunned too. Even with the tons of evidence, sadly, I know some people won't want to believe it and will choose not to do so. That's pretty tough.

My instincts told me what to think 5 months ago. I chose self-restraint, patience, etc...which were not my instincts.

Perhaps it's not possible to reach a low functioning infj/Estp/3 behaving person. I'm still showing up in person for that last opportunity. There's no substitute for face to face communication. None. Then it will be friendly intermediaries. Then it will be legal.

This was so easily solvable. To any infj's out there, don't underestimate the effectiveness of direct communication to clear up facts, truths, from imagination. You'd be surprised just how supportive the other person/people can be sometimes...not all people all the time...but some. And, re-visit and reverse decisions that have already been made. People make mistakes. People aren't perfect, it doesn't exist. You'll lose many great people in your life and great situations and great opportunities because of it.

She's running and hiding out of fear of humiliation and retaliation. But, if you just come clean, those things go much easier. There's no getting away with it. That doesn't exist. She never left the angry, cover up, stage. She's never come back from that.

 

[Reverie]

I see there is a whole other conversation going on in this thread... I love how INFJs with 4W3 are painted as narcissists...
but as for the original subject, I have, I guess "doorslammed" people a few times. In these cases it has been warranted each time. When it's happened it's because someone has overstepped the line of human decency in some very profound way. I'm easygoing 99% of the time and put up with a lot more than most people, because I can empathize when someone is going through a rough patch. That said there are definite limits to what a person can and should put up with. In my life the incidents have all revolved around betrayal, where a person has gone behind my back and tried to cause me serious trouble. If I find I have a very toxic person in my enviroment then I think cutting all ties is just self-protection.
I think it's silly to say because you're an INFJ you can't handle adult conflict. How is it that there are many people in long term employment and marriages if that were true, where you have to deal with conflict on a regular basis? I think it's just silly to say that.

 

[BalanceFind]

Not sure if the person above is referencing me or not in terms of narcissism. I can only speak for my own experiences and what I know.

I am a strong believer in Riso/Hudson type correlations in terms of the enneagram. The infj's of my experience, are 4w3 or 4w5, and sometimes both wings. My infj...and I frequently use the term "my" only to distinguish in limited words my example from generalities. "My" sounds awkward and I'm aware of that. Anyway, my infj is a 4w3. She has shown 4w5 behavior at times. However, she is mostly a heavy 4w3. The 3 type is the narcissistic type.

Everyone at some point in time will exhibit small doses of narcissism, healthy or unhealthy in the lives, regardless of personality type. Just as everyone at some point in their will exhibit characteristics of all 9 enneagram types imo. However, we have specific types, wings, points of integration and disintegration, etc...and so on, imo.

I agree with Riso/Hudson, that no person is a 3 first. People can behave like a 3 wing and or behave like a 3 all the time, but their naturally personality is something else, and the narcissism of the the 3 can overshadow one's natural type.

I know 3's...and all of them are something else first. It may be very difficult cut through to figure out what that is, but all are something else first. Example. Someone can be an 8w7 and deeply narcissistic 3. All 3. But their natural personality is 8w7. It can be next to impossible to eliminate or reduce the 3 in them sometimes. Depends.

So, for me, I've known several infj, 4w3's. With 3 being the narcissistic type, all of them show some narcissism from time to time. Small or big, more often or less often, healthy, average, unhealthy. But it's there.

In my example, a healthy infj 4w3, went to average levels and back to healthy much of the time. The unhealthy low levels were not common or often. However, in my example, my infj 4w3 became unhealthy. It first started as average to low average self-indulgence and other things. It became worse with exploitation, rules don't apply, cut corners, etc...cover ups, lies. Isolating people to limit exposure.

In 9 years this wasn't previously a problem or issue. And, it doesn't become an issue for many people, at all in his/her life or if it does, it's very limited and/or infrequent. Every situation is unique. Any type can be narcissistic. My infj is a 4 first and foremost. She's good at healthy 4 and healthy 1. She's snappy perfectionist in a bad way at average one, which happens occassionally. She can get in the "try too hard" average 2 stage when she's worried about the relationship. When she's quickly reassured she usually moved back to healthy 4 and healthy 1. Healthy 3 was frequent and fine too.

Previously my infj never behaved at the low levels, at least to these extremes, for this length of time. I noticed reading the "Personality Page" that when infj's get to the point of this, it's next to impossible for them to come back to reality, normal, address immediate urgent issues etc...they merely suggest that an infj doesn't get to that level or it's too late. That was disheartening to read.

It makes me extremely uncomfortable on so many levels to have to talk to others that we know about our situation. But, one can only be door slammed and/or ignored for so long before having to go out and protect oneself. Part of protecting myself is to tell and show a wide range of people personal private info I'd rather keep private. My infj will be unbelievably upset at that, but I look at it as...I'm not getting anywhere as it is and the damage she caused is only growing. So, hurting her in a very big, public, way has to come first. When that happens and is all over with, then I and others can get her some help. ...or at least try. It makes me very uncomfortable, angry, disappointed, and all of those things that she is choosing to completely ignore reality and she is trying to re-vise history more and more as time goes by. Simple, face to face discussion would have solved this problem in one day, peacefully, happily.

The push and pull of reality vs vision/fantasy/image. The best place is often in the middle when it comes to that.

 

[Reverie]

My infj is enneagram 4w3 wing. So, she has a narcissistic wing. .

Not sure if the person above is referencing me or not in terms of narcissism. I can only speak for my own experiences and what I know.

I am a strong believer in Riso/Hudson type correlations in terms of the enneagram. The infj's of my experience, are 4w3 or 4w5, and sometimes both wings. My infj...and I frequently use the term "my" only to distinguish in limited words my example from generalities. "My" sounds awkward and I'm aware of that. Anyway, my infj is a 4w3. She has shown 4w5 behavior at times. However, she is mostly a heavy 4w3. The 3 type is the narcissistic type.

I was referencing to the earlier post you made. I wouldn't really be comfortable making such broad generalizations about 4W3s being narcissistic based on one singular case, that's all.
3 wings are usually the more outgoing fours.

 

[BalanceFind]

I was referencing to the earlier post you made. I wouldn't really be comfortable making such broad generalizations about 4W3s being narcissistic based on one singular case, that's all.
3 wings are usually the more outgoing fours.

Would you agree that the enneagram 3 is the narcissistic personality type?

Would you agree that narcissism is part of an enneagram 4w3 wing?

Would you agree that an infj can be a 4w3?

Narcissism in and of itself is a neutral term. It can be healthy, average, or unhealthy. Would you also agree with that?

The enneagram 3 is all about narcissism, good, bad, indifferent. You wouldn't agree with that?

 

[iwakar]

I can't tell if you're manic, obsessive, or obtuse. Otherwise, the enneagram threads are thattaway --->^

 

[BalanceFind]

I can't tell if you're manic, obsessive, or obtuse. Otherwise, the enneagram threads are thattaway --->^

Not sure if you are speaking to me...but the answer is none of the above. I couldn't be more calm. That's always a challenge with non-face to face communication. The misinterpretation of moods can happen frequently. Obsessed? Nope. I'm very capable of completing a wide variety of tasks on a daily basis while I wait for my flight. This is a message board, about a specific topic, and I experienced an example of it. Posting my thoughts, questions, comments, experiences, is quite normal. Obtuse? Nope, not insensitive, not lacking intellect, etc...unless you mean the blunt definition of obtuse, which in case I'd say not sure...my communication style is often direct back and forth, 1v1 preferred. You'd have to be more specific. If you posted that because you don't like my posts, you'd have to say so directly to me, and even so, I don't see a need or reason for me to continue to help others and myself through the exchange of info on this topic.

 

[Reverie]

Would you agree that the enneagram 3 is the narcissistic personality type?

Would you agree that narcissism is part of an enneagram 4w3 wing?

Would you agree that an infj can be a 4w3?

Narcissism in and of itself is a neutral term. It can be healthy, average, or unhealthy. Would you also agree with that?

The enneagram 3 is all about narcissism, good, bad, indifferent. You wouldn't agree with that?

I don't think narcissism is usually used as a neutral term. Perhaps it can, but I've never heard anyone refer to a person with a healthy self-regard as a narcissist. The myth of Narcissus definitely refers to an unhealthy self-absorption.

"Except in the sense of primary narcissism or healthy self-love, "narcissism" usually is used to describe some kind of problem in a person or group's relationships with self and others."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

I don't agree that enneagram 3 is all about narcissism, more about being successfull and excelling in a public way. It seems that at it's most unhealthiest a 3 would be narcissistic.

I do think a 4W3 can be an INFJ, as I am one, but I'm no more narcissistic than most people. Many INFJs and INFPs are 4s.
here's a link http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/flauttrichards.htm

To be honest I think you're projecting a personal issue with a specific person to a general level. I hope you can find some peace. It's obviously very stressful. Take care!