[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[BalanceFind]

Thanks much. As time goes on, my sympathy and empathy fades. However, I have an extremely high level of willpower and resilience, even when most would feel empty. It's been exhausting and devastating...but an Entp trait I possess is that I can literally outlast anyone in anything, if...if...I'm interested in doing so.

A lower functioning infj will get she deserves. I will painstakingly repair every last relationship strained because of her.

The most free or freeing feeling is that all I have to do is tell the truth at all times and eventually the situation will be resolved successfully. It's pretty amazing how someone could be so sloppy and careless in the world of lying, stealing, manipulating, and cheating. It's almost a dare that it's so stunning from her that she'd just get away with it and somehow I won't have the energy or won't go to the trouble to confront her.

It does bother me that she took unconditional love, and in a sense, is making it conditional on my end. But I have to many responsibilities to too many people, and I have too much respect for myself to not unleash the fury so to speak. Once it begins, I won't be able to stop it.

And yes, I will sleep very well at night, finally, knowing I did absolutely everything possible to avoid and prevent the situation first. That mattered to me. It mattered to me a lot.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

[MENTION=14749]BalanceFind[/MENTION],

I suspect you are an enfp and you are stuck in a sort of analysis paralysis that can beset our type now and then. I also recognize the pygmalian complex in how you hoped to help this person who seemed to be headed downhill. enfps create people projects, even when we dont realize it consciously-we want to help others find the path that brings them the most happiness. It sounds like you tried to do that and the person opted out in a way that was very strange to your worldview. I dont think that is condescending or insulting, but shows that you did care for this person.

Some of her behaviors resemble those of an INTJ-the taking one data point and extralopating it to yield meaning that is irrational and inexplicable to the others, which then sets the Ni dom onto an entire new direction.

Something that is very important to understand-you are trying to analyze this relationship in a Te way and seeking a Te explanation from her..."Why and what was your rationale for acting in such an apparently irrational, unreasonable way?" "Surely, you must have had some reason that, once I hear, will help me understand why you acted the way you did, so that I can forgive you or at least avoid and plan for this in the future?" The need for explanation, for some attempt at rationalization, for some amount of reasoning and a need to speak this conversation aloud to the other person is very much an enfp thing....and she is an INFJ. She doesnt need to do this, thus you waste your time trying to get her to.

So instead you have come here to try and speak with these INFJs and reach that same level of analytical understanding....as sometimes things dont hurt so much once you can understand the "why" behind the hurtful action. But I think what you are seeing here with the INFJs is the same thing you see with your INFJ-they feel you are being overly analytical and not listening, and they are, in their own way, asking you to stop having the conversation.

Instead you keep reframing the convo in Te flavored Fi terms trying to reapproach the topic rationally.

I totally get what you are dealing with and your need to talk about and analyze the problem. I do this myself endlessly. (haha, try dating an INTJ-we seriously talk about problems like this for hours and hours and hours until every little bit is ironed out )

I have a great deal of sympathy for your situation, and I do suspect this particular INFJ was a little off kilter-but you will NEVER get to have the convo that you need to sort out the emotions that trouble you, with her, and she will not respond to the type of reasoning you would choose to employ in that conversation-thus I would suggest finding a legal intermediary to handle the financial aspects of the situation and cutting her out of your life as much as possible and learning to work through the emotional side, understanding you may not ever find a satisfying conclusion as to the hows and whys of her behavior.

Wow, [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION]! I absolutely loved what you wrote here. I totally do this. And, I've observed - just like you articulated above - that the INFJs in my life don't get this part of me. My wanting to talk about why what happened happened amuses / confounds / pisses them off. And, their reaction to my earnest, heartfelt soul searching completely confounds me.

I don't mean to get us too off topic here, but I felt that it was important to acknowledge how dead on accurate Orobas was when she posted this. And, I suspect that she is right. BalanceFind could very well be an ENxP on the prowl for a soul-satisfying Te explanation for why his INFJ did what she did.

But just like Orobas said, BalanceFind will never have the conversation with his INFJ that he wants to have. She doesn't need to have such a conversation and would probably be aggravated at the prospect of having such a conversation.

^^^
Accept this and let it go, [MENTION=14749]BalanceFind[/MENTION]. For your sake... not hers.

 

[Fidelia]

The funny thing is, strangely enough the INFJs I know are rather tortured themselves if they can't figure out the why of things as well. Ni goes crazy with too many possibilities. They are rather dogged about understanding what happened so they can adjust their perspective and cut off the generation of ever more possibilities, uncertainty and burgeoning emotional noise that obscures their getting a clear perception of the situation. In the complete absence of ways to get direct information and reduce this discombobulating uncertainty, they may pick the most likely perspective and go with it, even though it could be incorrect.

Therefore I can theoretically understand the need for ENFPs to get to the bottom of problems and resolve them. I understand the emotional distress that leaving things unresolved produces.

On the other hand, our ways of going about resolving problems are very different. From our interactions here, I've noticed that ENFPs generally want to solve things in the heat of the moment, while INFJs want to retreat and check their perceptions with someone they trust first. Then they will revisit the problem after they feel they have regained some objectivity or are sure that they are going in the right direction. If there's more stress in their lives, the ENFP needs to understand that this delay period that is needed may be even greater. This delay period is non-negotiable and trying to shorten it up or eliminate it will only result in uncharacteristic hostility.

I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.

INFJs get increasingly blunt, believing that their message is not being received and therefore must have been too oblique. ENFPs may hear the message the INFJ is transmitting, but conclude that the INFJs reasoning is flawed and therefore ignore the message, which results in extreme frustration and eventual doorslamming (in some cases). If the ENFP were to back off for just a bit, they would be much more likely to get the resolution that they long for and the INFJ would also be less likely to inadvertantly hurt them.

This of course is a gross generalization about both INFJs and ENFPs and I don't purport to speak for either. It is also stated from my perspective, but I have seen this situation occur often enough on here that I no longer write it off as immaturity or obtuseness on the part of the ENFP in the way that I once did. It does indicate to me though that if the ENFP really wants resolution, they need to understand this divide in our communication styles before they lose the INFJ's willingness to respect or hear them.

Thanks Orobas for stating this in terms that may make more sense to Fi-Te ears.

 

[BalanceFind]

I'm not interested in the emotions and they why etc...I am only to prevent future mistakes.

No I want the problem solved in the most fair way possible as soon as possible.
At this point that solution is 100 percent me.

I had been hesitant for multiple reasons...not understanding a door slam. I literally thought she was dead in a street somewhere because we normally talked daily. I was actually shocked she wasn't in severe health trouble...and...I wasn't happy to find that out either. I wanted to try to be patient and understanding even though I didn't and don't agree that door slamming is ever an acceptable way to treat anyone. It isn't final, it's just avoidance. Avoidance has consequences. But it isn't final.

No, I want to walk into my house without a physical confrontation, without police, without legal people. It doesn't sound as though that's gonna happen...oh well. I wanted to not have to spend a lot of money and time on a legal case. Oh well...doesn't sound as though that's gonna happen.

No I didn't want to have to tell everyone she lied, lied some more, tried to cover it up and tried to manipulate me and others and turn them against me. No, I didn't want to have to waste my time on that. She could have done explained that.

I'm dealing with someone with a delusional sense of entitlement at the moment, a long several month moment...who seems incapable of understanding basic facts, basic proof, basic logic.

I'm over the self questioning, self blame, the allowance for more manipulation. That already happened. I'm over the saving someone. I'm over the understanding why this or that.

No, I just wanted to save myself some money, time, stress and find a way for someone to give me what is legally and rightfully mine without me having to go take it.

If anything, my regret is not taking more aggressive action much much sooner in terms of confrontation and resolution of the situation. But better late than never. People cab change all the phone numbers they want, emails, go on the run, etc...if someone wants to find you, they will. I did everything I know possible to avoid that.
It wasn't so much endless analysis, it was ....how can this not be solved simply, quickly....you get this I get this, we share this, you can have that...etc...done. One day, in person, I could have done it in an hour or less. The delusional sense of entitlement is going to cause her so much suffering. Short term gratification, long term suffering...forever the victim. Just no longer on my time. Forgiveness and re-visiting decisions, is something that would help infj's in my experience. Cheers.

 

[SilkRoad]

I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.

I have said almost these exact words to a young xNFP (I'm pretty sure) with boundary issues (ie. she doesn't really get that boundaries exist.)

The rather worrying thing is how often the situation has recurred despite my using this type of punch-in-the-face bluntness. She takes it on board for a while and then things regress, and it's a situation where it would be difficult to entirely cut her out. I don't actually know how much more blunt it is possible to get other than saying "go away, stalker" (I've very nearly said that too.)

 

[PeaceBaby]

So, what is your purpose here if I may so enquire?

Forgiveness and re-visiting decisions, is something that would help infj's in my experience. Cheers.

Ah, thanks for that.

-----

I do have a stong Enfp side...as I also have a strong Entp side....when younger it was more Estp meets Esfp down the middle.

What type (singular) do you think you are? Because ...

I'm not interested in the emotions and they why ...

... sentences like this don't seem to jive with stressed ENFP. There's a boat-load of other sentences that point more to stressed ENTP too.

But what do you think?

-----

I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.

How do you say that, verbatim, if not exactly like that?

 

[BalanceFind]

The above posts are good examples. One talks about time and space. In my example, 5 months is a ton of time and space. It's very unrealistic imo for an infj to think he/she could get more time than that or even that much time considering the things on the table in my specific situation. It's as if the infj wants to to disappear and sometimes years later he/she will come back and sometimes no. This actually sounds a little like my infj. We've known each other 9 years, but in the very beginning each of us did that...two separate times total, walked away and came back. But I consider that type way different, not knowing each other that long etc..

I wouldn't be able to go back to a relationship like mine any longer, even if she today came to me and wanted to make everything better. I'd still help her, non-financially forever, on my time and terms, but that's it.

The 2nd example above talks about fear of confrontation, or stalking or different terms....and that's a good topic too. In my experience, the situation is much different. I'm very understanding that I am a guy and she isn't. I sat and waited 5 months where she was allowed the benefit of the doubt and allowed to get her way....and a lot of that had to do with her being a woman. Again, I was wrong to not confront her and the situation as soon as possible 5 months ago. ...doing so in a professional manner...other situations are very different of course. It all depends.

For me, there was value in trying to figure out what was real and what was manipulation. And, a lot of it is so I didn't keep making mistakes with the same person and that I can better limit them in the future. There's value to the recipient of door slams and or manipulation, to get facts, to understand what was and is true and not. On the end, in this situation for example, because she didn't check in, she made big huge mistakes in assumptions. She assumed the worst of me because she thought, well if she hurts me, I must be going around hurting her or saying bad things about her. It stunned her to find out that didn't happen. It didn't change her actions as she didn't re-visit anything but it definitely shocked her. Gotta check in to know facts and what's real or not. Sometimes simple in person conversations can clear up a lot of confusion.

If an infj door slams, and gets no check in reference points of facts, an infj can get into his/her own head, and in my case, memories and thoughts were confused and mixed from different people, different times etc...

Another thing I mentioned was the rapid fire of comments/complaints, some of which were from so long ago, and some factual incorrect. To someone else, for example, let's say you have a problem many years prior, and the infj never says anything, ...it's a lose/lose because the infj suffers silently a long time and sulks...and never properly let's go of that complaint...and often times that complaint then becomes far bigger than what reality deserves. It doesn't mean it isn't important or valuable. The other non infj suffers because this becomes a secretive grudge unnecessarily. My first thought and reaction to myself was, what? 9 years ago is 9 years ago. Then I'd think, okay, I'm willing to sit down and go over that issue and make it better for both as best as possible and move on....but I find that sometimes infj's prefer to hold on to that "pain" if you will for some sort of power. My response then would increasingly be that I was and am willing to process that tpic in depth, come to agreement and keep moving forward. Life doesn't stop, it keeps moving forward. Maybe there is value to others here with what I'm saying, maybe not.

Solving problems is something I do....it doesn't mean molding or fixing people. I leave people alone to find their own way unless they ask for specific help or strategy. So, for example, an infj can be him or herself, but there can also be problems outside of the personal scope that need to be addressed. ....If I ever get new information that conflicts with what I know, I'm willing to re-visit a situation again and again....life is forever changing...it's something I don't understand about infj's. It isn't productive for anyone, if you make a decision, realize it's wrong but stick with it because you don't re-visit things. Forgiveness or lackthereof is also a big one.

In the end, if you lie, steal, cheat, and intentionally hurt, exploit, and or manipulate others, I don't think twice about protecting myself or others. I don't care what our relationship was or wasn't. I don't care if you are a woman and I am a man. You will suffer the consequences. And, because I'm relatively healthy, I'm not interested in revenge. No I don't care about you/the one who did harm in the process. I only care about the truth, and protecting and restoring justice to those who were hurt. Walking away and doing nothing is never something I would do. I have too much respect for myself for that.

Will there be a messy confrontation with a lot of people? Quite possibly. If the other person, an infj in this situation is unhealthy and or unstable, the reaction will be volatile and unpredictable....but what do I care...that's the way it's been for 5 months, 5months too long.

 

[Starry]

I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.

Hey fidelia...if you could...would you explain to me the bolded? At first - I thought that maybe I was taking this statement out of context...but I reread what came before a few times and it doesn't appear that I am. The reason this jumped out at me...is because you are actually stating (although it is unclear if you intended to or not)...that people, especially ENFPs, are supposed to know what you believe...and pick-up on the subsequent message without it actually being stated in reality? <--- is that what you are saying?? Help me out here.

I mean...I have sorta gathered from this thread that INFJs feel that no longer speaking to another person automatically sends out that message. But I have lived on this planet for more years than I will admit to in this thread...and I promise you it doesn't. Like BalancedFind has alluded to...sometimes it means an individual has been in a terrible accident...or is dead...or has completely lost their minds and wandered off somewhere. Sometimes people become incredibly busy. And it has been my experience that MOST people...when they want someone to 'back-off'...say outright 'back-off'.

ENFPs...live in possibilities. They will not settle on just one until 'instructed' to do so. If you want an ENFP to back-off...say what you said...but in reality. An ENFP will be able to understand that. In fact...you may quickly learn how 'not stalkery and gone' an ENFP can really get.

 

[BalanceFind]

I can add to the above. Often times to me in life, truth, is in the middle. An introverted person may want to passive aggressively handle a situation and and extroverted person may want to be direct. In reality, being too extreme in either way imo is not the way to go.

It's a juggling act of when to be more direct or indirect or in the middle. If you stay too long in one extreme, in my experience, problems happen.

How I've posted here for the most part is not how I'd be in real life because it's a crisis situation. If I carried in that manner all the time, it'd cause me problems.

I have gained the most information in my situation through direct contact. After 5 months, I was able to speak with her on the phone...caught her way off guard by surprise. But she stayed on the call briefly. First, she spoke and said repeatedly that I'd get my money I'd get my money. That gave me info that she has no clue what am doing or saying with others. I hadn't spoken about my money to anyone she knows. It told me she was self aware enough to know that she took my money and ran...so to speak. She is aware that it is a big deal. It told me she knows what she did was wrong. I had no idea what was going on with her. The other thing I did quickly on phone was tell her that if you don't check in you get facts wrong. I told her what I think, do, say, feel, is only found out through direct communication. She became aware temporarily at least that she jumped to way wrong conclusions. When I mentioned to her I planned on living in the house, she mentioned the police. All of this direct communication helpful. When I mentioned she could sign over a property in her name, to me, asap, it would roughly be an exchange for the cost of the current house in question. That'd be a quick and painless soultion for both, a win/win to some extent. Although I really do want this particular house she's living in...and spent years on it...I was willing to just cut my losses and trade out and go from there. Her response, as she was caught off guard was shock. She hasn't been trying to sell that property, and she never considered doing so. I thought all that time that she was working on that. She lied in the sense she never was working on it. She can be very convincing in her lies. Great actress. Great drama.

This direct communication allows me to change and improve my strategy. It has been incredibly valuable. It's allowed me to see where she is emotionally, mentally, physically, even geographically. I was also able to gain info that she has lied to other people both in regards to house ownership, and also in regards to me. As I stated a few people are not speaking to me. These are/were past good friends whom in which I nor they have an issue. I can conclude that she is saying things to them that aren't true. She is fearful she will be exposed and left behind by everyone. Instead of choosing to be exposed and vulnerable and adjusting expectations to something much more reasonable of herself and others, she chose image. She chose an all out attempt to have her cake and eat it too.

I have many faults. I make mistakes every day. But it's imperative for anyone to find some balance in forms of communication.

 

[BalanceFind]

There are times when taking the hint is reasonable. Someone doesn't return your calls, and there are no loose ends...I don't like passive aggressive behavior, but it's within reason to just walk away in those situations. Say you date a new person for example, go out a time or two, person doesn't return contact, disappears....that's within reason.

In that scenario, being overly direct or repeatedly direct will cause problems too. Obviously there are people who prefer both extremes. And, there are people that do both.

A problem is the belief that one can door slam without facing loose end consequences to actions. A door slamming person may say, back off indirectly by door slam....but life doesn't stand still for that person nor others. A door slamming person may choose to slam and indirectly say back off, but that doesn't mean others need to bow to the dictator of door slam. It's always always always a two way street. One person is never more important than the other.

In my situation, when it's done, I will have done both extremes and the middle in my choices of interaction style. She has chosen one, in an extreme manner. And, I'm comfortable knowing I've done my best. I'm human, I'm going to feel terrible
about it for a long time. But I won't feel responsible, because I've tried different ways and means.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.

I'm going to chime in with the others, here, and ask Fidelia to flesh this out a bit. Can you give us examples of times you thought you communicated "back off" but the message was not received? And, how would you now - based on what you've learned - communicate this same message of "back off" differently in a way that gets the ENFP to comply?

INFJs get increasingly blunt, believing that their message is not being received and therefore must have been too oblique. ENFPs may hear the message the INFJ is transmitting, but conclude that the INFJs reasoning is flawed and therefore ignore the message, which results in extreme frustration and eventual doorslamming (in some cases).

To bring this back around to the topic of this thread, I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for how INFJs and ENFPs could communicate with each other in a more adaptive way in order to avoid a potential door slam by the INFJ.

I think Fidelia has characterized the dynamic pretty well here. All I would add to it is that an ENFP will hear the INFJ's "back off" message, but will decide to ignore it because:

a) the reasoning of the INFJ is flawed (which is what Fidelia said),
b) that to submit to the INFJ's request would somehow violate an Fi value dearly held by the ENFP, or
c) the INFJ tries to communicate "back off" by avoiding the other person in some way... maybe not a complete door slam, but more of a withdrawal. The ENFP recognizes the retreat but doesn't understand what the INFJ is trying to communicate. In fact, withdrawal might even incent the ENFP to approach the INFJ. In other words, not only does the INFJ not effectively communicate their needs to the ENFP, but also they incite from the ENFP the very behavior they are hoping to avoid. <-- I'm going to bet this third scenario is pretty darn common.

So what's the answer here? How can ENFPs and INFJs (who are by all accounts friendly and kind people) avoid getting in such an unhealthy dynamic with one another? If we could figure this out maybe there'd be less doorslams going on out there in the real world and I think that'd make both ENFPs and INFJs happy.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

A problem is the belief that one can door slam without facing loose end consequences to actions. A door slamming person may say, back off indirectly by door slam....but life doesn't stand still for that person nor others. A door slamming person may choose to slam and indirectly say back off, but that doesn't mean others need to bow to the dictator of door slam. It's always always always a two way street. One person is never more important than the other.

BalanceFind, I know exactly how you feel here. I've thought the same thing to myself many times. And, I've expressed these sentiments in this very thread. But sometimes, the kindest thing you can do for the doorslammer is to "let yourself be wronged." Give them the space they are asking for not because you are letting them dictate your behavior, but because you choose to give them space. A doorslam is obviously a sign that that doorslammer is under stress in some way. Even if they're wrong to doorslam you, even if it's short-sited, even if there are loose ends, you can choose to let them win that battle... at least for a while.

^^^^^
The above advice applies to what I'd call a run-of-the-mill doorslam. With you're situation there are unique variables that indicate to me that you're INFJ is definitely in fight-or-flight mode. This transcends the doorslam. She may have doorslammed you, but she's in complete denial about a lot of stuff. This calls for a different tack. You can't reason with someone who is living in their instinctual, fight-or-flight, lizard brain. All you can do is get them to submit by sheer force. So let me suggest that you quit trying to manipulate her behavior and leverage a higher power (that'd be the legal system) to force her to do the right thing.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm going to chime in with the others, here, and ask Fidelia to flesh this out a bit. Can you give us examples of times you thought you communicated "back off" but the message was not received? And, how would you now - based on what you've learned - communicate this same message of "back off" differently in a way that gets the ENFP to comply?

I can’t speak for fid, but for me, that’s a hard question to answer because I go on a case-by-case basis and so the comment I’d specifically have would change according to the person I’m dealing with.*

Something to remember there though is that it’s a very Te-delivering-Fi route to take. I suspect it’s hard for team Te to understand, but delivering things in a Te way (from a Ti vantage point) is basically treating the other person like they are stupid. We’re sensitive to Ti stuff and it’s not always clear how direct/unrefined a comment can be without feeling ‘clearly’ disrespectful. It’s difficult to say something which would reciprocally make *us* feel disrespected/like the other person is treating us like we’re stupid and believes we need to be told 'what to think', because it feels like a double standard. In other words, it would “violate a Ti value held dearly by the INFJ”.

Personally, I put as much effort into figuring out where- on that spectrum- I should deliver the message according to how important the person is to me. If I don’t see them as a valuable acquaintance, then I’m not going to spend the energy ‘looping’ about how to balance going against my own Ti instinct with effectively getting a message across. I’ll just do what’s comfortable and avoid them. Which may sound selfish, but I have a hard time believing anyone really goes against their own unconscious priority to figure out how to communicate effectively to a person who doesn’t seem worth the effort. I can't imagine it's any easier for Fi'ers to go against their own unconscious priorities and values to simply effectively 'get a message across', because regardless of the Ji function, it just kinda feels slimy. I mean, I suppose it’s worthwhile sometimes to get over that subjective slimy feeling and realize it's what the other person needs to 'hear' something, just for the practice of being able to effectively communicate with a wider range of people- and I’ll occasionally do it for the sake of practice in understanding how to communicate- but really, it seems like there are enough people who are valuable enough to me around to keep me preoccupied with that practice.

Also, I suppose I generally tend to invest as much effort into effectively communicating as I sense someone else is (but then, that’s usually because that effort in itself is what makes them ‘valuable’ enough to me).

*[edit to add:] This is where the infinite amount of INFJ mental post-it notes comes into play. I'm constantly taking notes about what sorts of approaches a person can handle, and I build the way I interact with them according to these notes. I CAN slowly develop an understanding that it's necessary to be blunt and direct- if experience tells me it's what they need, it doesn't offend them and they prefer it. But I need to build a mutually respectful type of rapport with a specific person before I can deliver something like that; the mental post it notes need to stack up first.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Part of the issue, as I reflect on the doorslam, is that it's difficult to separate why I would choose to not deal with someone anymore vs why an INFJ would doorslam.

If I were faced with a dire situation or relationship where I had to decide with finality to cut someone out of my life, I would feel inside my heart like I was saying, "You are a BAD person" to that other person vs what I think an INFJ is saying is that "You are a bad person FOR ME."

And, really let's be honest here, my doorslam isn't even a doorslam, it's more like a door closing so quiet you don't know it just got shut. That causes problems for me too though from time to time. I'm not saying my way is inherently any better at all.

It's just like gradually releasing someone from my life - I would try my best to orchestrate it into the natural ebb and flow of the pattern of life because I don't want that other person to know I have cut them out. I don't want them to think I think they're bad because I still can see virtue in them, just personally I can't deal with them anymore. I see it as my problem, I guess, take ownership of that?

For example, I worked with a super-fun but toxic person on a musical theatre production. I decided it was a friendship that I just couldn't maintain because it was very much a "taking" style friendship where I didn't feel I got even close to equally listened to over time, things were WAY out of balance. So it was more natural to just gradually disconnect after the show ended. It's taken me years to even learn how to do that to get these type of user-style friends out of my life.

Perhaps the doorslam is hard to receive because the NFP hears it as "YOU ARE BAD", unworthy of love or respect, instead of "YOU ARE BAD FOR ME". That's why I think it hurts and perplexes so. It is a huge, huge decision I know for an INFJ, but on the receiving end, because there is no recourse, just a broken end trailing off loose forever, there's no opportunity for mutual closure, which feels more respectful of each other's humanity.

 

[BalanceFind]

I think what matters is being healthy in your type. If you are healthy in your type, any two types can get along, communicate well, etc...The more one or both people aren't healthy in their type, the more opportunity there is for miscommunication, and, or problems.

I'm a positive person generally, and an open minded person generally, but I don't see how a door slam, of any kind would be beneficial to the person doing the door slam, short or long term. I can see how things held inside get to be too much, and I can see how the temptation is there, ...but doing it, especially for any length of time, isn't very productive or beneficial, including to the feelings or imagination that many infj's for example value more than anything else.

For me, with infj's, withdrawing is moving into the wrong direction. You don't get to check in for facts. This doesn't mean you'll lose those feelings and emotions. The other thing for me is the unwillingness to re-visit decisions already made, even if the infj knows it was not a good decision. This to me seems to be more about two possible things, perfectionism of an infj, ...mine could be very perfectionistic at times. Also, secondly, this to me is about crumbling quickly when things get difficult or complicated. This also related at times to my infj. I'll throw in a third, for some infj's 4w3, narcissism. Mistakes happen every day, all the time. Every person makes them. And, often times, mistakes are no big deal. ...whether these are mistakes or flaws so to speak of the infj or other person.

My infj could fall into the all or nothing spectrum rather quickly with people. And for me, if those things could and would even out more often more quickly, less severe problems will occur.

Again, any of these topics can and do apply to me in different ways with my own personality and how I respond etc......but the message remains the same, not going to extremes too much or staying there too often, unless for healthy reasons. Self-awareness helps.

In my example, during better times, my infj and I had a running joke, where she would once in a while call herself a "Cranky toddler," for some reason or another if she didn't get her way about something. It's an inside joke, but it means she was self-aware, could laugh at herself, recognize if she was getting out of sorts, and be able to change her approach for better results. It was definitely a relief to me to hear her be able to joke about herself, matter of factly.

In my situation, a lot of factors beyond our control became challenges for us. Long distance, roughing it, other people's issues besides us, ...a little bit of a language challenge for me as the other country isn't English speaking, I am not fluent in the other one, ...though capable. I would focus a lot on communication sometimes, when out and about, and that leads to perhaps inadvertant attention to her, or perceived that way...little things...etc...all kinds of things add up....but regardless, all of them are easily discussed back and forth, calmly, rationally, and we won't always agree. I am not suggesting even doing that all that often...but never or next to never itsn't good. Communication is so much. And, both sides have to adjust, not just one or the other.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't think that it's true that INFJs never revisit their decisions. However, usually they tend to do their main agonizing before making them, instead of after. They (if anything) take too long to decide what they are going to do and that often causes problems for them because by that time they are at a frustration level that limits their willingness to negotiate any longer.

I have to thank Esoteric Wench for being the first person to help me understand how differently ENFPs and INFJs resolve conflict. I believe it was in the INFJ Common Issues thread. It is actually an interesting thing to reread now in light of some of the things I've learned since. I'm still not sure that I have good tools for avoiding a similar reaction to a Te laden ENFP, but I think I may approach the situation with less exasperation and more understanding. I appreciate your analysis of what goes wrong in this pairings interactions and I agree that it is for the reasons you outlined.

You asked me about specific situations where this has come up. In that particular case, here's some of what seemed to be at play

1) I and other INFJs didn't feel that your statements about your INFJ were universally applicable, and yet you seemed to feel they were. Ti puts more emphasis on the qualifications of the speaker (and/or the previous relationship of the speaker and their audience) to register their opinion, while Fi-Te seems more open to any new ideas if they are good, regardless of their opinion about the expertise of the person offering them. This was something that I didn't understand at the time as a significant difference between Fi-Te and Fe-Ti.

Therefore, right off the bat, it seemed to you that I was ruling out people who could give useful constructive criticism and save someone terrible pain. I wasn't opposed to that, but I didn't feel that was the main focus of how I had laid out the thread, and as Ni has a terrible tendancy to snowball, I wanted to limit it to one facet at a time. Had it been your thread, I felt like I would have been in your territory, following the guidelines you had laid out. Now I understand that is more of a Fe-Ti approach, but then I didn't understand that that was not a universal truth! (That sounds horribly arrogant, but it's true. I honestly assumed that everyone saw things that way).

2) You offered a plan of action of INFJ self-improvement which had not been invited and your relationship to any of the INFJs in the thread was not pre-established to soften the Te edges of it. This is a huge no-no in Fe-Ti land where it is impolite to offer help of that kind unless you have established that you understand all facets of the problem, have taken time to know and gain trust of the person, and they have solicited your help. I still find it confusing, as I inadvertently can seeming prying or harsh to Fi-Te when I don't mean to, but some of the ways those users relate to each other would seem very harsh and blunt to me. Again, Te and Fe both look less flexy or open to change than they really are, so they can seem kind of like a jackhammer to those with introverted functions.

3) The resulting reactions of some ignoring, followed by increasing bluntness with me in the lead, but other INFJs as well, reinforced your Fi reaction of this being unfair as well as a rejection of you personally. On principle, it seemed you felt this was something that needed to be pursued. It wasn't fair to silence some people, while allowing others to be heard.

I felt that since I had given you what seemed to be very clear warning that I was feeling irritated and you did not acknowledge the problem existed or kept on with your own agenda, I would be less careful of your feelings compared to how I would generally interact. It seemed at the time that you were purposely being obtuse or pushy. Of course, I've realized since that this was not the case. I was actually surprised to realize that you felt as badly as you did, or that you felt that emotionally involved, as my feelings were more ones of surprise or annoyance, but not real emotion.

4) I was misreading your wish to get what you perceived as a huge interpersonal issue between us resolved as you green-eggs-and-hamming me to death, and I was annoyed rather than understanding that you were doing so out of true distress and that there was a need to do it now. I felt like if you just backed off for a day or lessened your approach, it was clear to anyone that the results would have to be better and that the problem would naturally dissipate. (Again, that sounds arrogant, but I thought it was a universal fact, rather than a basic difference in the way our functions sets would approach problem resolution).

I see some of what BalanceFind is doing as being a similar disconnect. Several people in the thread have asked what he really hopes to accomplish by continuing to offer details that seem extraneous when concurring opinions have already been offered by a variety of people and have been ignored. Any suggestions that Balance is not telling the whole story also have not been addressed. Neither has his assertion that his INFJ is behaving in a typical INFJ manner, when others do not agree that this is necessarily typical. These may seem like details to him, but to his audience, they need to be addressed before they can devote attention to what he has to say. Otherwise his facts and his opinion will be discounted as unreliable.

I will agree that INFJs can be somewhat avoidant, especially when a clear answer just doesn't seem to be available. I think it's entirely possible that in that sense, his INFJ is doing this, realizing that she is in a bad situation. However, at this point, those facts seem extraneous. It seems clear to me that the relationship is over, so saving her from herself when she is clearly unwilling to even speak with him seems like he is bringing a lot of the pain he is feeling on himself by being so single-minded and insistent. We all acknowledge that the financial issue is of course not one that can wait, and therefore should be dealt with by an impartial third party as soon as possible.

Wait a minute though - perhaps this too is rooted in Fe-Ti being very results oriented, whereas Fi-Te is more expression/action oriented. I can't imagine discussing something if it wasn't to get clarity on what to do, or on how to relieve my own feelings or change my perspective significantly enough that I can proceed. Maybe that is not what Fi-Te sees the point of discussion being though...

This is all clumsily expressed and I apologize to any and all Fi-Te-ers to whom my way of stating it may seem offensive. I truly don't mean to be, but rather am trying to better understand it.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Whoah. I wasn't expecting [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] to respond on point re: hers and my debacle. Let me go get a glass of wine... or two... and then reread.

 

[Fidelia]

Whoops - I hope I didn't overstep by doing that. If so, I will delete! I don't have that much real life experience with ENFP-INFJ conflict, but have encountered and watched plenty here. I am truly grateful to you for uncovering some of those things, because I think it has impacted my real life perspective considerably. One of the most useful things about that conversation was understanding by the end of it what different points we were both starting from, or how according to our own function preferences the same event could be viewed in completely different ways.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Don't delete. I just need a little time to process. It's not very often that one can throw an ENFP off kilter. Consider it a compliment that you did so.



I - who normally am awesome at handling whatever is thrown her way - have to take a mini-break to re-evaluate.

^^^^^
You see the very fact that you could throw me a curveball like this is why I generally like INFJs. Whatever differences we have, the dominant Ni/Ne thing is something we have in common. In my humble opinion, it gives ENFPs and INFJs more in common than that have apart. Dominant N can be a bitch, but it's a very powerful commonality INFJs and ENFPs share.

 

[BalanceFind]

To any infj here, or anyone else here, I'd be more than happy to answer any DIRECT question that you have about my situation. Instead of continuously calling me unreliable, perhaps simple direct questions would get you the information you seek to give a more informed opinion. I won't be able to read your mind and guess what info you need or want. And, as an Entp/Enfp I take my word very seriously...as in...it's understood from the beginning to me that I am truthful with nothing to hide. In my opinion that sort of direct communication would be more productive, more efficient, and less frustrating...this is meant as part humorous, and 100 percent true. I won't be able to read your minds. Thank you in advance for your feedback and questions because I am genuinely interested in the best solutions for all in my situation, and for all here in his/her situations too..