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Thread: When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

  1. #981
    girl with a pretty smile Array Honor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    The problem with me is, I let unhealthy people get too close. As an ENFJ, I attract them, and some arrogant part of me used to assume I could help. Now, I watch for warning signs, and ignore those I want nothing to do with before that happens. It sounds cruel and immature, but actually, doing the contrary is like filling your life with people constantly feigning suicide, and realizing that many of them are just too immature to stand on their own two feet. I call them sympathy vampires. They're looking for an easy way out of their issues, and you are it.

    Sympathy vampires look like ordinary people at first, so when I accidentally let one in, I have to door slam them. There's no other way to get them off of you, as they don't want your help, nor advice on how to stand on their own.
    I relate to this a lot.

  2. #982
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    @yeghor, i have to say i love the character creation mode here - brilliant tactics as well - who needs to look fore reason anything when one can just invent an imaginary ulterior motive to explain why it wouldn't be there? it's almost as good as your arguing-via-retyping strategy (i can't get wait to see your performance when the NFPs join in). while you are working so hard on inventing intents for others, and we all appreciate it btw (at least me and the coworker and your childhood friend do), are you planning to reveal which one have you invented for yourself here in the thread?

    oh, and about my theory...
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What happens when someone in your life (that you need to interact with regularly/daily) keeps making you feel bad? What do you do in such a case? How do you cope? What if the behaviour persists?
    have you considered that reality is not measured merely by it's impact & value on your ego? could it just be possible that - *gasp* - things can both make you feel bad about yourself and be true in the same time? entire perspectives even?

  3. #983
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I've been reading this exchange with interest. I don't think I really have a strong opinion anymore. I know that I tend to soften towards people I have some history with, even if we have not always agreed. On the other hand, Mane, I am consistently finding your approach to obscure the useful things I could take from your message. I've given up sorting through all of it, because it is too confusing. There's a Julian Smith video where he and his girlfriend have a whole conversation that is completely pleasantries, but all stated in sarcastic or shouting tones and then they flip around to say the worst things to one another in the very most pleasant voices. That's what I feel like when I hear what you are saying in this thread. I'm not saying even that you are trying to make friends of the INFJ crowd, but the emotional tone that I can't help reading in is so distracting, that I just can't hear the message at all. Again, the issue seems to be that I then can't figure out your intent for communicating certain information and if I can't figure out the intent, I have no way of evaluating whether or not I have anything to contribute that would be of use, and if I can't do that, I'd just prefer not to expend the emotional energy needed to engage in an exchange that is potentially frustrating.

    I tend to want to understand where people are coming from when I don't understand their viewpoints and also am learning to not assume that my view is the only one that makes sense. I think that Eilonwy made some very valid points in that regard. On the other hand, I agree with yeghor that INFJs have a tendancy to not trust their feelings or draw firm boundaries in the first place and that at some point there needs to be some line-drawing. When that is repeatedly disrespected, I am at a loss for what to do with a person, other than to disengage. I am not a fan of using doorslamming as some kind of retribution or punishment, and I think that it is extremely understandable that Mane would want to remain involved in his stepson's life, even if the relationship did not work out with his stepson's mother. As someone who needs closure, I can see why for both practical and emotional reasons, it is not right to leave things hanging and just cut off communication. On the other hand, I do wonder in the cases where someone does not respect appropriate boundaries, how those boundaries can be maintained without cutting off contact. There have been very few situations in my life where I have disengaged completely, and they have not been in the case of romantic relationships or familial ones. However, I can see where at some times, that may be at least temporarily necessary for one's own mental health or safety.

  4. #984
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I haven't read the most recent posts in their entirety yet, but I did want to make this comment now:

    @Mane, you are losing your audience (viz., thoughtful INFJs) with the vituperative tone your posts carry. While I agree with most of your underlying logic, I think you're having a hard time separating your own hurt from your arguments. In other words, you read pissed off due to past wrongs. Unfortunately, this undermines the truth in what you're saying by distracting the reader's attention toward the hurt you're carrying.
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    See, I no longer read Mane as angry or pissed off. I read sarcasm and maybe some frustration. And if I come back and read his posts a few days later, I sometimes get no emotional tone at all. Yeah, sometimes his words convey a tone, but mostly the tone is in my own head. Once I get rid of what I'm adding to his posts, they come across differently. I can't even say that he's putting his own hurt into his posts--some of that impression may be coming from me and what I've been writing about him. The hurt and anger I saw the first time I read through this thread was almost completely absent when I re-read it. It takes effort for me to NOT read some sort of emotional tone into anyone's posts, because that's what I'm wired to look for, but in order to get away from my own pov, I need to do my best to get away from forming impressions based on emotion and read what's actually being said.

    ETA: And actually, if I can completely divorce myself from identifying with INFJ, and not see his posts as aimed directly at me, I find his sarcasm to be quite funny. What this leads me to believe is that what I get out of any post depends a lot on what I read into it.
    Johari / Nohari

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    Vulnerability Array Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Okay, here's an emotion-filled post from me because I'm in a hurry and not inclined to think before I act. My apologies to yeghor, because I'm going to throw him under a bus right now.

    What I don't understand is that, so far, people have been telling Mane to modify his tone, but no one has come out and told yeghor to modify his. Why is that? Why is it okay for yeghor to throw out insensitive proclamations and judgements? Why is it okay for him to diagnose Mane based on assumptions? Why is it okay for yeghor to have his hurt feelings soothed, but not Mane? Why is it not okay for Mane to have his say in something he didn't even start?

    I don't get it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #987
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    In my way of thinking? Because there's a longer history with Mane. I don't know the other guy from a hole in the ground, so I have no intention of wading into that till I've formed some impression of why he is coming off as abrasive as he is. I also read it as a similar initial reaction to the one pretty much all of the INFJs had in the thread at first, so it only seems polite to me to give him time to acclimate. Mane has had (I would assume) some time for the freshness of his emotion to wear off, so at this point I'd like to better understand his reason for engaging. No one has been able to prove his theory wrong to his satisfaction (and thereby give him hope), his tone isn't one of seeking information, nor of diplomatically giving advice. I don't have any current conflicts or broken past ones to talk over. I have no intention of being someone's punching bag, particularly if there is nothing productive to be gained by doing so. Also, despite you taking time to say what you'd gotten out of the thread upon second reading, his response was not to engage with you on that in any real way. When I read it first, I'll admit I just came away with an impression of emotional tone which I found dismissive and distracting. Upon rereading, I think he makes valid points, I find it an incredible amount of mental work to " sanitize" emotional tone out so that I can pay attention to the content. I am assuming that I even am over-reading tone into it that he may not even feel, but the style is very distracting to me. Even if I am not the recipient, it feels like being in a room with an angry person and having to navigate around them.

    So maybe it's not even a matter of picking sides, but rather having a better idea of how to respond to/interpret a familiar communication style.

  8. #988
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    FTR, Eilonwy, I agree with many of the cautions and considerations you've raised and I think they have validity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I haven't read the most recent posts in their entirety yet, but I did want to make this comment now:

    @Mane, you are losing your audience (viz., thoughtful INFJs) with the vituperative tone your posts carry. While I agree with most of your underlying logic, I think you're having a hard time separating your own hurt from your arguments. In other words, you read pissed off due to past wrongs. Unfortunately, this undermines the truth in what you're saying by distracting the reader's attention toward the hurt you're carrying.
    what is there is to gain: see how he reacts to seen his fallacies & cognitive mechanisms satire'd to the raw extreme form, his failed mental blocks played into, would he be able to laugh at himself? would he reicipate by playing into it further? would he put himself aside and look for the logic to counter argue? would he smiply blow a fuse? or find a self rightous hole to shove his head into? turned out to be the last, but just because the answer isn't pleasing doesn't make the question less worthwhile. tie the picnic basket behind a rock and and see under what circumstances can @yeghor bear still catch it, different reactions supporting different models carrying different possibilities in turn.

    what is there to loose: his insight into the very same mechanisms he demonstrates not being able to see in the first place? his respectable moral authority of should's & shouldn'ts built on nothing but fragile towers of self justification blocks? his sophisticated understanding of typology repeating the same good old process of people identifying with the metaphors ingrained in function description to augment one's beliefs about one self and thus attributing the lack there of with the opposite function? what is it that i am expected to take seriously?

    however, on a slightly off topic but related matter...



    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've been reading this exchange with interest. I don't think I really have a strong opinion anymore. I know that I tend to soften towards people I have some history with, even if we have not always agreed. On the other hand, Mane, I am consistently finding your approach to obscure the useful things I could take from your message.
    i am pretty sure i've being honest about it in the past: my intent isn't to give information but to get it - to to gauge as much information as possible to get a better grasp of the range of mental models i have to work with, it's internal mechanisms and how do i work with it. that's not to say that if their is something you want to get out of this you can't ask, its just not my core motivation here. i was actually sort of shocked when it turned out that some INFJs have decided to avoid doorslaming as a result of this. its cool and all, and has potential insight in itself to offer, but was never my intent.

    unfortunately, the blindspots are largely proving to be within the blindspots, so asking straight forward questions has proved repeatedly to be mostly useless (with very few exceptions who know who they are): instead of self conscious insight all you get is a combination of attempts to distance one's self & reactionary self-righteous justification to how it might imply something negative, and those justifications usually in line perfectly with the very same pattern of an inability to examine one self from another's perspective. the doorslammed react but arguing with the answers they received - the justifications, the doorslammers react to that as a demand for further justification and end up feeling like they are on trial, the association with typology gives the trial a tribal twist towards MBTI as a source of identity bringing other INFJs in (in particular sensitive those who identify with it as a way to compensate for feeling misunderstood most of their lives), all while demonstrating the very behavior they attempt to argue against, reinforcing the opposition, which in turn reinforces what is basically ganging up [on people using their live stories to treat you as punching bags, apparently].

    it can be repeated endlessly, and all it does is provide further evidence towards the same areas of the mental schema, same patterns of dancing around any possibility for looking at one's self. same old freaking dance going nowhere. in the mean time, there is a lot more to be learned by extrapolating on the models internally to different directions and testing for possible reactions to various arguments and emotional conditions.

    i realize how condescending that can sound, because.. well, it is, no excuses there. but i don't think i blocked the door for honest exchange - there's a hill to climb on but the requirement to do so is never higher than the ability to put your ego aside, which in the case of self examination seems like a requirement for honest exchange anyway.

  10. #990
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Any discussion has to be mutually beneficial in some way, or else there's no reason to engage though. From what I've seen, there is an ENTP tendency to poke people to see how they respond, in an effort to gather information. After awhile though, people resent being poked or treated like your science experiment. I just think that you may be missing out on an element of useful information that would add to your mental model if that was not the sole approach.

    You are surprised that people might think over an exchange that they spent a considerable amount of time and thought investing in? What would be in it for them if they didn't? I think what bothers me most about your stated approach is that it shows no consideration of the people you are trying to glean information from as equals. It feels more that you are attempting to manipulate them into responding in such a way that you can get your reaction, take away your results and go without regard for the mess you may be leaving behind, or for what you have to offer in return.

    If I could understand the thought process behind that better, it would be most helpful. If I am missing information, I would like to understand it in a more accurate light.

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