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  1. #951

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    @BalanceFind

    How do you know your ex-partner is an INFJ?

    Your ex-partner might be someone with a personality disorder (Cluster B perhaps) like borderline personality disorder, or bipolar.

    By the way, I do not think you are an ENTP, you sound to me like an ISTJ based on the priority you give to the facts, reality, material property and social norms…Your ex-partner may be a con-woman ESFP or ESTP with borderline or anti-social personality disorder.

    You are disregarding any insight offered to you by INFJs here because, I believe, you are mistakenly associating them with your ex-wife…

    As an INFJ, I doorslammed people when they:

    -repetitively failed to adhere to my interpersonal boundaries by verbally, physically, emotionally abusing me (like condescension, belittling, jealousy, extreme competitiveness resulting in attempts to publicly humiliate me etc. i.e. they acted like frenemies, they were not really what I deem to be friends, the connection, relationship was not authentic but was based on lies, deception etc.)

    -repetitively lied to me in the process (Cluster B personalities are casual liars (even to themselves sometimes) and will rarely admit to lying),

    -shown a lack of empathy and care for my physical, mental, emotional well-being.

    These people were mostly what the psychologists regard as toxic people, emotional vampires, and people with Cluster B personality disorder (narcissists, borderliners, sociopaths etc), who tried to use and abuse me for their own gain/interest and/or to inflate their egos.

    These people entered into my life most of the time due to mandatory relationships like childhood family friend, like a coworker etc…Some of these toxic people do trick/charm you into a relationship (by feigning friendship or by doing you small unsolicited favors to place obligations on you etc.) and then try to manipulate you into maintaining the relationship even when it is to your disadvantage…It appears they have developed those skills early in the childhood (as a unhealthy coping mechanism) so that they would be taken care of, and then carried those skills over into their adult lives…INFJs being a caregiver type, are extremely susceptible to such tricks so we learn the hard way to raise our guard up (and doorslamming is one of the methods to that end...)

    Your story is a bit different than what INFJs here shared about their experience with the doorslam, which was mostly used on acquaintances or some friends…In your case there’s a marital relationship conflict that needs resolution, which is judicial matter…it cannot be ignored without damaging the other party involved…

    Friendship doorslams on the other hands are not judicial matters…There’s no material/contractual issue to be resolved…They are not obligatory on the parties but are rather built on mutual consent…You cannot force resolution on a failed/doorslammed friendship without harassing the other party…It’s over when it’s over…

    You can be angry at the other…You can try to defame the other by engaging in a smear campaign against him/her etc…But those are your choices/actions, for which you will bear the consequences…If you harass the other in the process, you will face legal consequences…because the other party is not obliged by a contract to maintain contact or resolve the contract with you cause there’s “no contract” (other than social contract, which is loosely binding at best)…

    If someone else doorslams you, that means he/she is willing to face the consequences of breaking the social contact and contract…End of discussion…

    In the meantime, you can also try introspection and internally question what may have caused the other party to get offended and to resort to doorslam (i.e. use your empathy, try to understand where they are coming from)…Thereby, you may develop your weak spots and will not repeat the same mistakes or will recognize early whether a conflict is brewing in the relationship…

    There may be another explanation to what you have been going through, you may have co-dependent traits and your ex-partner may have Cluster B personality traits or bipolar disorder, and the issue may not be related to INFJs and doorslamming at all...

  2. #952

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    To those who think they have been doorslammed by INFJs:

    If the INFJs in your life tried to confront you before the doorslam, my guess is that you would, in the heat of the moment of rejection (i.e. narcissistic injury), make remarks (perhaps by reflex) aimed at verbally and emotionally hurting and abusing (i.e. getting even with so as to alleviate your sunken/hurt ego) the INFJ, to which we INFJs are extremely susceptible, as we did care about you at one point in the relationship and cannot stand seeing anyone hurting (cause we can decipher your pain/emotions and then emulate it within ourselves)…That’s why I am reluctant to engage in a confrontation before the doorslam…selfish and cowardly but I got to put myself and my health first at some point…

    As for some concrete examples of my doorslam cases:

    About 7-8 years ago, I doorslammed my childhood “frenemy”.

    (After himself having been married) he called me while I was taking my father to an angiogram appointment and despite me telling him the situation at hand he tried to make fun at my expense by asking in a laughing manner if I had not been able to get married yet…He was jealous of me since childhood, of me getting good grades without too much effort when compared to him…One time he made a remark about how I was earning half his salary, tried to belittle me among girlfriends by mentioning that my teeth was crooked, showing off his new car, new stereo…He felt entitled that I should accommodate him when he came to the city I live in under the pretense of visiting me and my family which later turned out to be about him dating his new girlfriend etc etc…

    I was putting up with him cause we were living in different cities and our mothers were friends…After his remark about marriage, a hatred for him brewed in my mind for about a month, and his image in my head darkened and darkened…All these years he expected me to bend over to suit his needs and to accommodate him…I resented him and when he called me next time, I told him not to call me again ever…It turned out that at the time he was (unbeknownst to me) drafted to a nearby military station and was expecting me to visit and entertain him at weekend leaves…He would have perhaps even asked me to accommodate him during the weekend leaves had I not doorslammed him so that he would not have to stay at the headquarters since my home was about 10-20 kms to the station…

    In the end, I had one less people that tried to inflate his own ego by belittling me and who had given me nothing in return in terms of friendship…In his case, the doorslamming process took about 25-26 years…He was an ESFJ I believe…prone to narcissism due to being spoiled by narcissistic relatives…He was really shocked that I doorslammed him…It turns out he told the incident instantly to his wife, who then forwarded it to his mother, who then calls my parents and tells them that since he is drafted at the military station and all sad and alone I should go and visit him to cheer him up and reconcile with him…I haven’t contacted him since then and boy I felt relieved…mentally and emotionally…like a burden was removed from my shoulders…

    Another doorslam I did was last week when a coworker (out of the blue) tried to ridicule among peers my lifestyle (which he finds dull/unfancy and reclusive wrt his standards) and told loudly to the group “The guy’s not normal” as if implying that I was a weirdo…I started ignoring him from then on and when he asked if everything was ok between the two of us…I told him it was not ok and that he had tried to belittle me with his remark…He said “Are you serious?…That (kind of taking offense) we used to do in high-school?” implying that I was immature and too sensitive, as if my taking offense was unwarranted, effectively invalidating my grievance…

    And then I said that what he had done back then was making fun of me at my expense…He then said “this (belittling) is a casual thing among friends here, we do it all the time to each other?” and then half-heartedly told me he meant no offense and he would take note of that in future…I wrote him off at that point cause he failed to understand/acknowledge that he was in the wrong and that his action had been abusive, which implied to me that he would do it again in future because it did not register into his system…

    He also had done similar things a couple of times in the last 8 months (like deliberately interrupting me over and over again in a workplace meeting, getting upset when I asked him the reasoning behind the technical procedures applied at work, recurring long (like 3-4 secs direct stares at me while passing by my desk and deliberately locking gaze etc.), which I took offense but let go… I guess he feels threatened by my constant questioning because I am relatively new at the workplace and even though it is not aimed at ridiculing him but learning the inner workings of our procedures, I believe he does not know/comprehend them (the procedures) so feels threatened when inquired about them…He’s 38 years old and father of two by the way...

    So what’s the point in pursuing a friendship with such a guy (I think he is an ESFP and mildly bipolar by the way)? In his case, the process of doorslam took about 10 months…

    Regarding my weak spots, I personally feel I need to work on voicing out my red lines (boundaries) more quickly (but as @fidelia said before, I can discern something is off but cannot quickly identify the violated boundary or articulate my point of view quick enough most of the time) and more assertively, not allowing people into my inner circle (sharing personal information) too easily and too fast, confronting people before the doorslam to discuss the issue one last time to clear up any misunderstandings and hopefully diffuse the tension (which as I mentioned some of the time resulted in the other party ridiculing me for being too sensitive )…

    I also noticed that toxic people are drawn to my demeanor/personality…I think I give away some kind of a scent and they take my nurturing and passive personality as signs of an easy prey/mark…

    An ISTJ friend doorslammed me about a year ago by the way so it’s not an INFJ-specific phenomenon…

  3. #953
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Good God. This thread has once again risen from the dead. Let's see how people respond this time.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #954
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Well, since @yeghor brought this zombie elephant back to life, and I hate to see @Esoteric Wench waste good popcorn, I decided to get out the ten-foot pole that nobody else was willing to touch this decaying, brain-hungry carcass with and poke it a time or two to see what it does.

    I recently reread some of this thread. There have been some consistent complaints about INFJs and their blind spots, so I wanted to explore that in relationship to myself to see if there was some validity to the complaints. I limited what I read to Mane's complaints because he still posts here, and has tried several times after this thread to explain his pov when the hurt he felt wasn't so fresh. I figured that would be helpful to my explorations.

    When that part of the thread was happening, I couldn't see much past the anger in his posts. I did ask him if he was venting (but if you read my post, that's not really what I asked at all), and he basically answered "yes" (which, if you read his reply, isn't really quite what he answered), so I dropped out of the thread. But I kept reading everyone's posts, and I thought, like yeghor did, that the INFJs were being very articulate and reasonable and Mane was just very hurt and angry. I couldn't get past the emotion in his posts to see what he was actually saying.

    After things had calmed down, I would catch a post of Mane's here and there, and started noticing that when the subject wasn't INFJs, he made some well thought out and interesting points. Eventually, even when the subject was INFJs, I could see he had a point, even though I might not have liked what he was saying. Some of his posts were funny, too. So, I wanted to re-evaluate my earlier impression, because I felt that I had missed something.

    I was shocked when I started to reread his posts in this thread. The words were basically as I remembered them, but I was able to read them without coloring them with anger, and the meaning was completely different. How could I have been so far off the mark in hearing what he was saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i'm slightly very drunk, and tired, and read half of this stinking thread, and i'm just going to share this with you INFJs... and tell you that this is nothing but your ugliest fucking side.
    I think I missed what he was trying to say because this is all I did hear. After this, everything was pretty much heard based on my own issues with anger.

    before i let it out, let me just say the really fucked up part: i figured it out.

    see, me? ENTP here, potential paths and possible solutions come to me from the fucking sky, ideas come to me from everywhere, all the freaking time, there's no such thing as a mountain i won't eventually figure out how to move, i will smell the potential directions, i will arm myself with other people, and i will arm myself with my own arrogant self confidence, and move the bloody mountain to where it fucking belongs... except.. you know when? except when i'm overwhelmed and stressed emotionally.
    The bolded was all I really heard when first reading this part. What I missed was the exception, which was an important part of what he was trying to say.

    and you know what happens then? i assume they aren't there. i am so fucking used to the solutions coming to me, i am so used to [U]smell the possible paths, that i take it for granted, and if i can't smell it, it isn't there... right? wrong.

    this is when we fall to our shadows, this is when we can't access our most dearest of information processing, and this is where we all fall - all types - when we assume that the information we are used to getting means it isn't there.
    I failed to understand this the first time around, and I completely missed that he was basically saying that we all have our blind spots. That we might need to question our own judgement.

    it is because you are used to be so freaking giving, used to being so freaking insightful, everyone else's emotions are so tied into your basic emotional reality, that when your stress points are pushed, when you feel overwhelmed, you don't sense their emotions at all. and if you can't smell it, it isn't there. and then you can become the most inconsiderate egocentric bastards on this planet. everyone else is so used to question whether they can see other people's emotions, other people's points of view, they have to, but you INFJs? it's so natural for you that if you don't smell it then there's nothing to smell.
    The bolded is what I ended up focusing on the first time around. I also got defensive about the "everyone else is so used to question…" part, thinking that, in my experience, it wasn't true. But in doing that, I missed connecting this paragraph with the one before it, and so I missed his point, which was still that all types have their blind spots and can lose perspective.

    and that's bad, you know why? percisely because it's not that bad. because its people who take themselves for granted, all people, they take their most fundemental information they are used to reacting too for granted and forget to question whether it's there when they don't recieve it.
    its bad because it means this applies to everyone, every type in their own way, every person in their own insecurities and darkest fears. it means the INFJ reaction needs to be understandable, human, natural..
    I had missed the part about it being understandable because we all do it, and, instead, was still only seeing the anger behind the words.

    but how can i forgive her?

    when we where together, her only complaint about me was always that i reached her moving ideals a day too late... a day too late? can anyone here imagine what it is to meet the INFJ ideals when they are running away from you, and yet still always find a way to fill them out? everybody talks about how INFJs ideals can never be fulfilled, yet for this INFJ i always did eventually.. all she had to learn was patience...

    yet how could she forget me? how many times have i placed my ego aside? how many times have i figure our way out of the worst situations? how many times did i display the rational capacity to zoom out and interpret the social interactions with all the motivations involved to get the bigger picture? or the thoughtfulness to understand how she would expeirence my actions from her perspective? the foresight and apriciation to understand that it took her a lot of trust to come out of her introverted shell and be herself around me and that by sharing my angry and one-sided perspective with others i would deprive her of that trust she placed in me? that's what i could take for granted, that's what she took for granted... those might not be normal for most people, in fact i know it isn't, but for fucking sake they are my mind's staples, i can see them, i can always see them...

    how can she not see that for me not seen them would be insane? and worst - how can she not see that i had every right to be insane? after the breakup i had no room to mourn the breakup with her, i had no room to miss her, there was only my stepson. so many times i wasn't breathing, so many moments without any sense of control, i had no fucking clue what a panic attack was, i thought i was having heart attacks that aren't going all the way through, and i felt completely helpless, i couldn't see any path, i didn't trust myself to be able to live with it, so i waited for one heart attack to come and get me... but there was no arm pains, it was just panic attacks... and it happened again and again and again, every morning, i wake up looking for my stepson and he wasn't there, i couldn't make him breakfest, i couldn't take him to school, the oppertunities to teach him fly by and i'm not there, i have nightmares stuff happens to him and i'm not there...
    this wasn't breakup up pains, this wasn't like mourning over a dead friend or parent, this wasn't fear like you feel in combat, this wasn't even merely depression and a sense of emptiness, this was the constant dread of needing to protect and care for and nurture and love someone with every bone in your body and not being able to see anyway to get there, expressing itself when neither my body or mind had anyway of making sense of it or think rationally. i never had an anxiousity disorder before or anything similar - i have gone through a fucking war and more family losses then she can imagine without ever getting PTSD, how was i suppose to know? how was i suppose to think rationally at all? to be considerate of her when i was blaming her? there was no spite, i didn'twant it to humiliate her, i just couldn't deal with it myself so i reacted in my own extraverted way - talking and talking and talking for whoever was willing to listen, and was unable to access the information in my mind that would tell me why not too, that would find a path and make the situation less then hopelesss. i did eventually, but it took me awhile to get there... too long for her.

    she told herself i was hiding behind him, she rationalizes that its not like i lost my real child, not like how she would empathize with if she would loose him, and maybe that's true,but i am pretty sure this isn't what normal step parents go through, this seems a hell of a lot like what i imagine biological parents go through, and regardless - she has expeirenced neither, and could never imagine what i was going through, and yet judges me for how i reacted and the place i was when i expeirenced what she can't imagine...

    and how could one even judge someone to be a bad parents based on how they deal after loosing their children? when would it ever be releavent? you've shown me how remarkable intelligent you can be a bilion times, use your Ti woman!

    but she won't let herself understand that or any of that, she won't let herself even consider listening to what i was going through, listening to my story... and the fuckedup part? i understand that, i know that her Ni is shouting in her head - "if this is true it would only make you feel bad about yourself"... here i am, being understanding towards her reasons to not be understanding to me..

    and the funniest thing here is, unlike breakup pains, unlike loosing someone who dies... it doesn't go away. it doesn't heal, it doesn't fade, the dread and the thought is always there. but i am learning to live with it, to catch the panic attacks early and breath them out, to function, to be healthy, to make jokes, to laugh, to grow.. all alongside with it. without hating her, even feeling love when i think about her, to be understanding towards her...

    and it is funny, because when you doorslam your doing it to protect yourself, yet after having caused someone the worst possible pain their life can offer, if they can do that, if they can think about your needs like that, understand your emotional state, care about you, to learn to be saine and all that it encompases for them the way you know them... who can be safer?

    understanding, learning to live with it... but still very angry. it's all the more frustrating because i know she can understand this all if she lets herself, you have no idea how brilliant this woman is, how sensitive and empathic she can be, she's the most giving person i've ever known, i fall for over and over again because there was always more reasons to fall for her, and at some point this was the mother of my children because there could be nobody better, and she saw the same in me, we had freaking names.. but she never believed me, i always told her how beautiful and brilliant she is, she always impressed me again and again like nobody has, and i told her each time how awesome it was... and she never believed me, always found a way to devalue it, always found a way to dismiss it... i could never make her feel good about herself... that's what accumilated, she listened to the bad stuff, not to grow but just to feel worst about herself, and yet never listened to the good stuff, to most of everything i felt about her and valued in her.. that's what broke us... so how can i now ask her to listen to a story that would make her feel worst about herself?

    and the ways she reacted to loosing her sense of esteem from me... i won't talk of that out of respect to her, but i don't know how to not judge her about that either.. and how i can not judge her as a mother for protecting her own emotions rather then protecting our son's? and with her insight to how i would think of those, how would that not make her feel like crap?

    i need to forgive her. i need to find a way to forgive her, whether she will open the door one day or not, and admittedly her last words to me suggests that she hopes to do so, i still need to forgive her, for myself, to let go of the anger. and i need to do it by myself, because...
    I did see the pain he was in, but the previous anger overshadowed that and I missed the depth of that pain. I missed most of what he was really saying. And I didn't take the time to read and reread this until I understood it. Later posts helped to explain what happened, but I didn't go back and reread to make sure I got the whole picture. At least, not until recently.

    Rereading this yet again breaks my heart. The first time through, I was doing exactly what he theorized that INFJs do--I completely lost sight of his perspective and was seeing things only from my own. I stayed focused on the initial anger and saw only that I needed to defend my own feelings from that anger. And I thought I was still able to see his perspective. But rereading this almost two years later, without letting the anger blind me, I finally saw just how painful all of this was for him.

    Yes, I know that we're missing his ex-wife's perspective. And I know that there are always other sides to everything, but, the point is, that even as an outside observer, I didn't stay neutral. I took sides the minute I took his anger personally. I no longer heard what he had to say. Hearing what he has to say doesn't mean I have to agree with it. But how can I even know if I agree or not if I haven't actually heard his side? He's said several times since this thread that he wasn't being heard or understood. The irony is that I say the same thing myself all the time--that I don't feel heard or understood. And yet, I didn't stop and take the time to do for Mane what I would want done for me. Instead I took it personally.

    …………………..

    the thing is...

    and you think this is just special for my case? every person you doorslammed has a story, maybe not just like this, maybe less, maybe worst, but their own story, that you doorslammers have decided not to listen too. and they have to forgive you on their own, because there's never going to be a sorry from you.

    and why? because you didnt learn not to take yourself for granted, because suddently something happened and you didn't smell their point of view, and unlike everybody else - you have never learned how to acount for other's feelings without that smell. all because you got a metaphorical cold and didn't think to get a fucking tissue.

    you can high five each other's doorslams all you want, whenever there's a thread or a sub forum for one type it becomes a bloody wanking circle reaffirming our worst aspect, and this is no exception.

    but you can never convince me that this is right.
    Any part of Mane's perspective that I might have actually heard while this was happening, ended up getting overshadowed by the anger in this last part of his initial post. And, I'm ashamed to say, I let that anger color the way I heard most of his subsequent posts in this thread, and even quite a few outside of this thread.

    The thing is, on rereading, the only post of Mane's in which I still heard a lot of anger was his initial post. The rest mostly had no emotion attached to them when I read them again, or, at the most seemed frustrated or sarcastic, but not angry. And yet, I remembered anger, so I was surprised to not find more of it. And I was surprised at how I didn't understand his points or his definition of doorslamming, even though he kept repeating them. Rereading drove home how much info I can miss, and how much my impressions can be off.

    I can't speak for Mane, but, after rereading his posts in this thread, here's what I hear him saying:

    1) All types have blind spots.
    2) He thinks that one INFJ blind spot is that, under stress, we lose sight of other perspectives and don't realize it. At those times, we need to question our own judgement.
    3) Doorslamming completely shuts out any possibility of revisiting issues and possibly reevaluating our own perspective by taking in another's perspective, especially at a time when we have lost sight of the other person's perspective and might not realize it.
    4) He wanted to be proven wrong about this for his step-son's sake.

    What I heard initially that Mane wasn't saying at all:
    1) He wasn't saying that I had to agree with the other perspective, or even defer to the other perspective, only that I should listen to it and take it into consideration.
    2) He wasn't saying that INFJs are all horrible people with no redeeming qualities.
    3) He wasn't saying to never leave a relationship, only to be open to new information.
    4) He wasn't trying to fix INFJs (this is the one I heard the most, initially).

    So, yeghor, when I saw you saying much the same things to Mane that were said almost two years ago, I felt I had to share what I experienced just a few months ago. You might want to rethink doorslamming. If I hadn't taken the time to revisit this thread and read it without all the emotion attached to it, changing my perspective of what was said, I would have missed out on quite a bit of personal growth.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #955

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    @Eilonwy

    2) He thinks that one INFJ blind spot is that, under stress, we lose sight of other perspectives and don't realize it. At those times, we need to question our own judgement.
    I've been there...When under extreme stress like depression, panic disorders etc. one needs to rely on their trusted close friends if any or go see a psychiatrist or anyone intimate enough who can act as a sounding board for them...When I was like that in the past (in the shadow), my senses were blinded...I was like in a sand storm and could not see and decide which way to go, which action to take, I was stuck in Ni-Ti loop I guess and needed someone to strike and break the loop and pull me out of the sandstorm out to the clear...Luckily I had such friends who were there for me and enabled me to make healthy decisions at that time (tough I have taxed them heavily during those times and am grateful to them)...

    So, at those times you cannot question your own judgment cause you are on the verge of going crazy..You need someone else, who is un-contaminated/healthy so as to re-calibrate yourself...

    As far as I can see, INFJs here have tried their best to be a sounding board for him IMO...

    3) Doorslamming completely shuts out any possibility of revisiting issues and possibly reevaluating our own perspective by taking in another's perspective, especially at a time when we have lost sight of the other person's perspective and might not realize it.
    You cannot see the storm for what it is before you get out of it...To me it's like suggesting someone to open up their eyes wider so that they can see their way out of the sand storm...Once out, you can assess the damage and decided whether the storm was not as serious/severe as you at first made it to be...

    4) He wanted to be proven wrong about this for his step-son's sake.
    How would being proven wrong here affect his step-son's well being out there? And being proven wrong about what? That her ex-wives actions were wrong?

    What I understand is that Mane had established an emotional bond with his step-son, whom her ex-wife (supposedly an INFJ) would not allow him to contact after the break-up/separation (which Mane believed to be an INFJ doorslam)...Would we consider all marital break-ups as INFJ doorslams?

    He, for reasons unknown to us, appears to have placed a good deal of importance on his relationship with the step-son, as if it were essential to both his and the step-son's wellbeing...Perhaps he saw it as something that would enable him to do a worthy deed and leave his mark on earth...I don't really know...

    He sounds angry at his ex-wife for spoiling that, for taking that (hope?) away from him...There's nothing besides acting as counsels and soundingboards that INFJs here can do for him...It's not us INFJs but her wife who he should have reconciled with...

    What I heard initially that Mane wasn't saying at all:
    1) He wasn't saying that I had to agree with the other perspective, or even defer to the other perspective, only that I should listen to it and take it into consideration.
    I did and there are missing parts in the story...I do not know what to do with it? I cannot integrate it into my thinking system as is...cause I cannot see what went wrong in his case and how that can affect me in my prospective life? I cannot see what lies underneath!

    3) He wasn't saying to never leave a relationship, only to be open to new information.
    In his case he should tell her ex-wife that he still wants to be a part of (not her but) the step-son's life cause he feels committed to him...He should pursue his legal rights to that end if any...If it is she who has the legal rights to do that, it's her call and there's nothing more he can do about that but to grieve and then accept...In fact his issue (being personal,marital) should not really be a issue to discuss/analyze by people here at all...He will have to go after new/fresh potential relationships to create a new prospect for happiness...

    4) He wasn't trying to fix INFJs (this is the one I heard the most, initially).
    What's the point then? Doesn't that conflict with:

    1) He wasn't saying that I had to agree with the other perspective, or even defer to the other perspective, only that I should listen to it and take it into consideration.

    2) He thinks that one INFJ blind spot is that, under stress, we lose sight of other perspectives and don't realize it. At those times, we need to question our own judgement.
    ?

    So, yeghor, when I saw you saying much the same things to Mane that were said almost two years ago, I felt I had to share what I experienced just a few months ago. You might want to rethink doorslamming. If I hadn't taken the time to revisit this thread and read it without all the emotion attached to it, changing my perspective of what was said, I would have missed out on quite a bit of personal growth.
    What motivated you to go back and revisit this thread to go over Mane's posts?

    What makes you think I do not think/re-think doorslamming? What coping mechanism did you put in it's place and how did you do it?

    What lessons for personal growth did you discover after that (specifically in terms of doorslamming)?

  6. #956
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    ah this thread: the good old days before examining the topic made me jaded and when the benefit of my doubt was more than half a dozen grains of salt. i love how the INFJs here decided and still insist that regardless of me saying otherwise and pretty much claiming to be a self serving prick, i just had to have ulterior altruistic motives... clearly, i gave them the impression i was such a compassionate guy that i will want nothing more than to take each and every one of them as my personal projects to save them from their flaws and fix their problems. that they would think so highly of me despite me constantly explaining to the contrary....i am touched

    far out @yeghor ! thanks for the Se creds yo, i was applying for those... and all Fi internal emotional awareness and stuff, me and my emotions are like jellyfish in water dude. an i have to tell you, narcissistic injuries are saad maan, cause they - the injuries - are totally right. in the avoidant & rageful reactions to any criticism that could bring to the surface their subconscious suspicion that they are somehow deeply and inherently flawed or threaten the idealistic beliefs they build to keep that fear under the surface, it just so happens to be that they are deeply and inherently flawed. funny if you think 'bout it, but they don't laugh, because in the ability to pay consideration to the possibility of true criticism, the irony flies so high over their head, and people not laughing makes me sad but you are totally not like that, right? dude let me Se this so that we can be in the same page, you know, dance to the same beat:

    • he believed the social environment facilitated casual banter...
    • that he saw favorably and agreeable enough to stand up for it and participate...
    • you objected to the banter (which he perceived was the common social norm) getting directed at you...
    • ... so because he implied that you are odd/different/unusual in a way they which conflicts with the norm he finds agreeable, "that guy is not normal"...
    • ...you took a stance odds with the norm, differentiating yourself as unusual relatively to the social environment around you...


    ...then..

    • because he implied that the above was somewhat immature and oversensitive...
    • because he didn't understand how hurtful was it for you to hear someone imply you are over sensitive
    • you concluded that he will be unwilling to walk eggshell around your sensitivities in the future...
    • and so decided to take the "i am NOT TALKING TO YOU!" route...


    are you laughing yet? are you able to look at yourself like a grown ass man and instead of your totally-non-narcissistic brain dodging the obvious reasoning at all cost and instead just deciding how horrible someone was for implying something negative about you, actually look at yourself? can you see how funny it is that in your reaction to someone implying that you are immature you decided to act as immaturely as possible? how over sensitive was your reaction to someone implying that your over sensitive? are you seen yourself and how in your emotional reaction to being accused of negative attributed that conflicted with your ego, you have demonstrated to actually have those very attributes? are you able to step outside of yourself and laugh your ass off? or is it just all flying over your head?


    yea... you probably don't. in which case let's be serious for a moment: you googled INFJ doorslams and made all your trip here not to better understand its consequences or see it from different perspectives, but for affirmation, for share the experience of others who have had to go through the process of having to justify that deciding they are unwilling to reason doesn't make them into unreasonable people, find a group of people to hold hands with and support each other about how its ok, the bitches deserved it, and did you look at the way they dressed? they were just asking for it rite?! good news i have exactly that to give you - and so let me ease your mind: you were completely right to doorslam them - they are truly toxic people. the real lesson to be learned is all the people you haven't - every moment passing is just another chance for someone in your life to observe a pattern in you that will conflict your ego. people are just never going to mature and become healthy enough to realize that you aren't accountable for anything from any perspective which can imply anything negative about you. i know rite? fucking sick. its full of sick toxic people with deep emotional disorders causing them to see you for more then your ego would like to be. you don't want people like that. i say, doorslam! doorslam all of them. it might just be the best service you can provide.

  7. #957
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    @Mane

    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    Assumptions, sarcasm, insults and shit
    Mane...you are wrong...

    @Eilonwy

    Why the need to gang up? Is this as personal for you as Mane?

  9. #959
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I can't speak for Mane, but, after rereading his posts in this thread, here's what I hear him saying:

    1) All types have blind spots.
    2) He thinks that one INFJ blind spot is that, under stress, we lose sight of other perspectives and don't realize it. At those times, we need to question our own judgement.
    3) Doorslamming completely shuts out any possibility of revisiting issues and possibly reevaluating our own perspective by taking in another's perspective, especially at a time when we have lost sight of the other person's perspective and might not realize it.
    4) He wanted to be proven wrong about this for his step-son's sake.

    What I heard initially that Mane wasn't saying at all:
    1) He wasn't saying that I had to agree with the other perspective, or even defer to the other perspective, only that I should listen to it and take it into consideration.
    2) He wasn't saying that INFJs are all horrible people with no redeeming qualities.
    3) He wasn't saying to never leave a relationship, only to be open to new information.
    4) He wasn't trying to fix INFJs (this is the one I heard the most, initially).

    So, yeghor, when I saw you saying much the same things to Mane that were said almost two years ago, I felt I had to share what I experienced just a few months ago. You might want to rethink doorslamming. If I hadn't taken the time to revisit this thread and read it without all the emotion attached to it, changing my perspective of what was said, I would have missed out on quite a bit of personal growth.
    @Eilonwy, I wanted to tell you how much I respect what you wrote here. (I mean your entire post, though it was too long to quote in my reply.) Not only do I think you were correct in your assessments, but also your post reminds me of why I like INFJs so much. They can be amazingly perceptive creatures which you have illustrated here.

    Another reason I so much respect what you wrote is that you very frankly shared your thought processes both when you first read @Mane's posts and then when you reread them. I think you are demonstrating an INFJ at his/her best. And, you were very forthcoming about INFJs' blind spots.

    Let my humbly proffer my non-INFJ take on doorslamming:

    It has been my experience that INFJs go awry when they let their Ni run free without having the check and balance of Fe and/or Ti stepping in. Said another way, Ni by it's very nature is a framework for thinking about the world. And it is riddled with personal biases. (Now I don't mean to use the term "bias" here as a pejorative. I just mean that Ni is at it's very heart a way of looking at things... a perspective if you will.) Now when Ni runs amuck, it does not allow outside input so that the INFJ can do a reality check to see if the Ni perspective about which they so strongly feel is grounded in reality. INFJs are at their best when they periodically use their Fe and Ti to make sure that their Ni assumptions/perspectives are still correct (and if they aren't they should then change their Ni assumptions to fit the new reality). INFJs who do not do this Fe/Ti reality check periodically can become opinionated, snobbish, and overly rigid in their thinking. They also can doorslam people as a method of dismissing outside input.

    [BTW, I think all INFJs are subject to the above blind spot on occasion. However, it has been my experience that most only slip into this blind spot occasionally... especially when they feel under stress or under attack. (And yes, it goes without saying that all types have their own blind spots.)]

    Anyway, it seems to me that oftentimes (but not always), when an INFJ doorslams, he/she is cutting off external threats to their Ni framework of understanding. In such cases, they are using their Ni to shut themselves from from taking on and absorbing new perspectives. INFJs need to focus on using their judgment not to dismiss ideas/people, but rather to critically refine their Ni understanding of the world.

    So INFJs need to take extra care to listen to someone's idea entirely before passing judgment on it. They need to ask questions as necessary. They need to do whatever it takes to make sure that they understand the other person's ideas. And finally, they should try not to begin judging anything about a new/different idea until they have understood it entirely.

    When INFJs doorslam for the above said reasons, it can be very hurtful to non-INFJs. Additionally, I think it is especially hurtful to ENTPs and ENFPs who have such a very different outlook (Ne) on the world that doorslamming someone seems almost inconceivable.

    Once again, let me say, way to go Eilonwy!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  10. #960
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Not sure if this question has been asked but:

    Do ENFJs doorslam too?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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