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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I think the reason there is a thread like this is because INFJs are way too polite to say it to ya straight that it's bullshit and get caught in the nyances of why it's BS.
    first of all your theory logically doesn't work: calling it BS - whether its true or not - wouldn't change the existence of this or any other thread, in fact it wouldn't even put it down, so where are all the threads complaining about other types doorslamming which are get responded with "this is BS"? surely ENTJs aren't known for politeness... ENTPs can be polite but very selectively so, where are all the threads complaining about ENTP doorslammers? ISTJ doorslammers? 1. no thread has ever died out by someone calling it BS unless it's a very hypersensitive moderator - and 2. threads that die out still exist. so its not that those threads got responded with "this is BS" and died out, its that there isn't anyone to start them here - not as many people complaining any other type's doorslams, and that even extends to types which are much more notoriously polite, like ESFJs, where are all the people complaining about ESFJs? either way, to assume that they are too polite as awhole to call BS about it given the level of "politeness" some of them depicted here would be ridicules...

    secondly, if you read actually through this thread, the vast majority of the initial responses was INFJs saying when they've done it, how much and how, not saying that they don't do it. its only later when non-INFJs started to respond to the thread's fourth paragraph asking people to describe their experiences with doorslamming INFJs, and only when it was described as a negative action, that INFJs started first defending the fact they do it - and only later calling BS about doing it - mostly by playing with the semantics of it in order to redefine it in a way that excludes the variations in which they've done it... your among a very small minority of INFJs claiming to have never done it, and i'm happy for you and the people in your life,

  2. #902
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I'm not sure what the relevance of that is, but if you're referring to me, I'm a primarily phobic 6. 6 is one of the most common enneagram types and there are definitely 6w5 INFJs about (@Quay is one I can think of on this forum, though unfortunately she is not around a lot at the moment.)

    In fact, I'm pretty sure a lot of people (including INFJs) mistype themselves and are actually 6. It's not a "popular" type. But it is generally cited as the most common type. I am definitely not a 4 and I am - about as definitely as I can tell - an INFJ.
    No i wasn't referring to you. Reverie's posts are very counterphobic 6w5. My entire infj experience has been 4's. I've met or known many more 6's than 4's, and none have been infj's.

  3. #903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    but i hear what your saying - i need the same, less so with my feelings, more so intellectually to process my thoughts and ideas... there was a point where my exwife became extremely argumentive with any idea i had, which would have being fine if it was after she listened, but i couldn't finish describing them, it reached the point where she would disagree with the metaphor i am trying to describe it with before i actually reach what i am trying to say, and when i talked to her about that she thought the demand for patiance was unreasonable, it didn't feel for her "organic" enough... i remember a distinct moment of realizing: i can't share raw thoughts as they come to my head anymore, i can show her the finished products and she'd like them and find them interesting, but i can do that with anyone.
    Given that you have a need to share raw thoughts with someone, and there are only so many non-work hours in each day that can be used for communicating with a spouse, do you think you could find a balance between "sharing raw thoughts" time and "communicating with your spouse" time? I'm asking because I can see the other person getting frustrated if you're in the mood to throw random thoughts out when they want to communicate with you about something.

  4. #904
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    I have, in the past, felt that way with my husband actually. It doesn't feel like a relationship of equals when conversations consist of being talked at, instead of talked with. When there's more balance it's okay because I realize he needs a sounding board and I'm glad to be it, as long as we are having enough back and forths otherwise that I don't feel like a literal sounding board whose input is not actually needed.

    It's never an issue when I feel heard, loved, and listened to otherwise. Which is most of the time. When those needs are being met, it's actually flattering to me that he feels free enough to let loose with his ideas around me because I know he holds back around most people to avoid the risk of boring them and not realizing it. (Since our son's autism diagnosis he has seen some autism-like quirks in himself, and that's one he's particularly sensitive about.)

  5. #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Given that you have a need to share raw thoughts with someone, and there are only so many non-work hours in each day that can be used for communicating with a spouse, do you think you could find a balance between "sharing raw thoughts" time and "communicating with your spouse" time? I'm asking because I can see the other person getting frustrated if you're in the mood to throw random thoughts out when they want to communicate with you about something.
    yes, i don't think i ever prioritized it over communication, i just know that when it was gone i suffered without it. when it was complete or processed thoughts that i already know how i want to express - she enjoyed communicating about it and i enjoyed her feedback, Ni/Ne brainstorms are awesome, but i just couldn't do that when an idea just pops into my head with her, well i could initially.. but it didn't last. for her if it didnt feel organic for her she wouldn't do it, and i guess it wasn't organic enough to have the 3 minute patience and listen to something that wasn't designed to be heard or captivate you from your first line.

  6. #906
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I have, in the past, felt that way with my husband actually. It doesn't feel like a relationship of equals when conversations consist of being talked at, instead of talked with. When there's more balance it's okay because I realize he needs a sounding board and I'm glad to be it, as long as we are having enough back and forths otherwise that I don't feel like a literal sounding board whose input is not actually needed.

    It's never an issue when I feel heard, loved, and listened to otherwise. Which is most of the time. When those needs are being met, it's actually flattering to me that he feels free enough to let loose with his ideas around me because I know he holds back around most people to avoid the risk of boring them and not realizing it. (Since our son's autism diagnosis he has seen some autism-like quirks in himself, and that's one he's particularly sensitive about.)
    I felt that way with my NT. He was very pedantic to everyone around him. It was like having a professor in the house giving lectures all of the time. While his topics were usually quite interesting and informative, it's pretty hard to have a good relationship when equal, two-way conversations don't happen very often.

    It sounds like you two have a great dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yes, i don't think i ever prioritized it over communication, i just know that when it was gone i suffered without it. when it was complete or processed thoughts that i already know how i want to express - she enjoyed communicating about it and i enjoyed her feedback, Ni/Ne brainstorms are awesome, but i just couldn't do that when an idea just pops into my head with her, well i could initially.. but it didn't last. for her if it didnt feel organic for her she wouldn't do it, and i guess it wasn't organic enough to have the 3 minute patience and listen to something that wasn't designed to be heard or captivate you from your first line.
    Did you try explaining to her that you sometimes need to express a stream of free-flowing ideas and just have her listen without commentary? I think Richard Feynman talked about that issue. He loved finding people to share his thoughts with.

  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    first of all your theory logically doesn't work: calling it BS - whether its true or not - wouldn't change the existence of this or any other thread
    And the fact the thread exists doesn't mean the arguments valid seeing that it's mainly just you and @BalanceFind who keep doggedly pursuing this whole idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    if you read actually through this thread, the vast majority of the initial responses was INFJs saying when they've done it, how much and how, not saying that they don't do it. its only later when non-INFJs started to respond to the thread's fourth paragraph asking people to describe their experiences with doorslamming INFJs, and only when it was described as a negative action, that INFJs started first defending the fact they do it - and only later calling BS about doing it - mostly by playing with the semantics of it in order to redefine it in a way that excludes the variations in which they've done it... your among a very small minority of INFJs claiming to have never done it, and i'm happy for you and the people in your life,
    I just answered why this was in my previous post. Please read it again. I can see you're hurt but it doesn't change the fact you're imposing attributes of your ex wives unto a group of people: It's analogous to if she had been German and you saying all Germans are doorslammers because of their culture.
    Any set of characteristics does not automatically predict a behaviour. So ESTPs have an unusual use of the part of their brains that calculate risk. Could you make some unbased inferred statement from that and go around saying "My ESTP sister in law gambled away her family's savings"? and rant about how they are loose cannons and a risk to become involved with. Now some might entertain the notion and think Hmm...have I ever recklessly gambled. Maybe they once went to Vegas and came back poorer and think back to that but it doesn't make a person a gambler. And it doesn't mean gamblers are ESTPS. Also one type (was it ENTJs...can't remember exactly) apparently have a very special skill that they can lie so that no one notices, the brain research confirms this. HOWEVER the question is "Do they lie?". Not more than other people I'm guessing. Things like lying, cheating or leaving relationships in a crappy way is a human thing, not an INFJ thing. This means some INFJs also have done such things, as have every other type, because we are human. Just cause some INFJs wear berets it doesn't mean all INFJs wear berets or that no-one else wears berets. I'd also say that INFJs are not at all more likely to wear berets either.



    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    No i wasn't referring to you. Reverie's posts are very counterphobic 6w5. My entire infj experience has been 4's. I've met or known many more 6's than 4's, and none have been infj's.
    Reverie's posts are 4W3 because that's Reverie's enneagram. The four is called the INDIVIDUALIST. You, Sir, are the counterphobic.

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    What I find bizarre though is that I don't think I've seen people show up with such elaborate function descriptions of 'what goes wrong' for any other type- at least, if it happens, it doesn't happen anywhere near as often as it does for INFJs. AND, on top of that, the people who do it seem to need INFJs (who AREN'T the INFJ(s) who cheezed them off) to 'admit' to doing what their elaborate function-gone-wrong description explains. It's stunning. And completely bizarre.
    I agree. One person that I had a discussion with said that the "mysteriousness" of INFJs irks some people. I'm going to read mysteriousness as they don't "get" INFJs because that's what it in effect says to me. I'm not a mystery to myself. ;D If something about me is mysterious to someone, they can ask away!
    I wouldn't admit to something I think is false. I don't think anyone would...lest they be spineless or under torture. It does raise an eyebrow ad to what's actually going on with all this. What's the big idea, so to speak. ????

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Did you try explaining to her that you sometimes need to express a stream of free-flowing ideas and just have her listen without commentary? I think Richard Feynman talked about that issue. He loved finding people to share his thoughts with.
    yep, what followed suit was one of her only and most non-genuine attempts to "change" something about her behavior for me - she argued that she can't remember the comments that she wants to say, and would thus need a paper to write them down, i didn't see any problem with that at the time, but then when it came to true execution of her idea - she did it with such resentment and bringing it to the center stage which didn't leave much room for the free-flow of anything other then her resentment for "having to do this"... so we decided to have it her way, but the next time we had an "organic conversation" as she idealized, i later asked her what exactly was my idea she was so critical of in that organic conversation, she couldn't actually tell me - she had no idea what she was commenting about.

    the thing is that whenever i gave her anything i thought of after having talked to someone else about it or having a chance to write it down - having had gone through that little moment of looking at my own thoughts through the observers perspective and determining how to best express them - she would love it, and so did i, we could have had extensive debates, brainstorm ideas, provide each other with deep realizations and fascinating points of view... it was a feeling of mental chemistry and it was us impressing each other intellectually - it gave me those "i am so happy to be with you" moments and she expressed getting the same... half the times it would lead us to sit and start writing and drawing designs and diagrams together, the other half would lead to very passionate sex, i am still not sure which was better...

    but when i had anything fresh coming to my mind, when i was making a new connection or coming up with a new thought, she wasn't capable of trusting me intellectually - trusting that this is what leads to the very sort of thoughts that she loved. she loved the bacon but she wouldn't participate in the slaughter.

    and as far as i can remember this really was her one and only attempt to change anything about the way she prefers to do anything for me...
    i can't stop thinking about one of our last conversations
    "i could have treated you like gold''
    "what would that have entailed?",
    it took her off guard for a bit...
    "well for starters i wouldn't have talked as much smack about you"
    i thought ok, less verbal abuse... "what else?"
    "well you know the sort of things that you do? massage me when i wake up and make me tea in the morning... "
    "you mean learning what you like and how you like things and expressing that knowledge by doing them..."
    "yes, i could have started doing that..."
    "why didn't you? why is it 'could have', why didn't you treat me like gold then?"
    "because there's a limit to what one can give without feeling that your getting it back"...

    and now looking back, this was the underlining tone of our relationship: here she was, after she just defined "treating me like gold" as less verbal abuse and doing a little bit of what i do for her consistently, and yet... within the same conversation, with barely a pause in between, she goes on expressing seen herself and feeling that she was the one doing all the giving and not getting in return. not appreciating what i gave, yet defining what she could have given me as a little bit of what i gave her... she didn't see the paradox, and until now, neither did i.

    only in falling out of love with her can i let go of the notion that she was such a giving person, because when i actually look at her actions... it's no there. whenever i told her about a way in which she could make me happy she would either have a lot of reasons to not do it - so as much as she idealized being the sort of person who would want to make me happy, making me happy was never a good enough reason to outdo any other reason - and at other times she'd just breakdown about how shitty i make her feel by "expressing that what she does ins't enough"...

    but the thing is, i made myself happy in ways i didn't recognize, i stopped resenting doing things and not getting anything in return very early on -the moment i got the tribal thing, and i didn't get to resent her until i reached the point where i could rightfully expect that whatever it is that i do for her she'll take for granted with zero appreciation. between those, i was actually happy doing things when i thought they made her happy, and i have never before in my life felt that way... this wasn't the egoisical self-centered me i knew and loved, and i was actually excited about that.

    but i became so focused on her and my son as agents for my happiness - making myself happy by doing good by them and making them happy, that i lost sight of myself, of what i needed, of taking care of myself - physically, intellectually, emotionally... i wanted too, but there was never enough time,... I became MY last priority, and i was blaming HER for that... god i can't believe i didn't see this. its almost like i temporary became a 2..

  10. #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yep, what followed suit was one of her only and most non-genuine attempts to "change" something about her behavior for me - she argued that she can't remember the comments that she wants to say, and would thus need a paper to write them down, i didn't see any problem with that at the time, but then when it came to true execution of her idea - she did it with such resentment and bringing it to the center stage which didn't leave much room for the free-flow of anything other then her resentment for "having to do this"... so we decided to have it her way, but the next time we had an "organic conversation" as she idealized, i later asked her what exactly was my idea she was so critical of in that organic conversation, she couldn't actually tell me - she had no idea what she was commenting about.

    the thing is that whenever i gave her anything i thought of after having talked to someone else about it or having a chance to write it down - having had gone through that little moment of looking at my own thoughts through the observers perspective and determining how to best express them - she would love it, and so did i, we could have had extensive debates, brainstorm ideas, provide each other with deep realizations and fascinating points of view... it was a feeling of mental chemistry and it was us impressing each other intellectually - it gave me those "i am so happy to be with you" moments and she expressed getting the same... half the times it would lead us to sit and start writing and drawing designs and diagrams together, the other half would lead to very passionate sex, i am still not sure which was better...

    but when i had anything fresh coming to my mind, when i was making a new connection or coming up with a new thought, she wasn't capable of trusting me intellectually - trusting that this is what leads to the very sort of thoughts that she loved. she loved the bacon but she wouldn't participate in the slaughter.

    and as far as i can remember this really was her one and only attempt to change anything about the way she prefers to do anything for me...
    i can't stop thinking about one of our last conversations
    "i could have treated you like gold''
    "what would that have entailed?",
    it took her off guard for a bit...
    "well for starters i wouldn't have talked as much smack about you"
    i thought ok, less verbal abuse... "what else?"
    "well you know the sort of things that you do? massage me when i wake up and make me tea in the morning... "
    "you mean learning what you like and how you like things and expressing that knowledge by doing them..."
    "yes, i could have started doing that..."
    "why didn't you? why is it 'could have', why didn't you treat me like gold then?"
    "because there's a limit to what one can give without feeling that your getting it back"...

    and now looking back, this was the underlining tone of our relationship: here she was, after she just defined "treating me like gold" as less verbal abuse and doing a little bit of what i do for her consistently, and yet... within the same conversation, with barely a pause in between, she goes on expressing seen herself and feeling that she was the one doing all the giving and not getting in return. not appreciating what i gave, yet defining what she could have given me as a little bit of what i gave her... she didn't see the paradox, and until now, neither did i.

    only in falling out of love with her can i let go of the notion that she was such a giving person, because when i actually look at her actions... it's no there. whenever i told her about a way in which she could make me happy she would either have a lot of reasons to not do it - so as much as she idealized being the sort of person who would want to make me happy, making me happy was never a good enough reason to outdo any other reason - and at other times she'd just breakdown about how shitty i make her feel by "expressing that what she does ins't enough"...

    but the thing is, i made myself happy in ways i didn't recognize, i stopped resenting doing things and not getting anything in return very early on -the moment i got the tribal thing, and i didn't get to resent her until i reached the point where i could rightfully expect that whatever it is that i do for her she'll take for granted with zero appreciation. between those, i was actually happy doing things when i thought they made her happy, and i have never before in my life felt that way... this wasn't the egoisical self-centered me i knew and loved, and i was actually excited about that.

    but i became so focused on her and my son as agents for my happiness - making myself happy by doing good by them and making them happy, that i lost sight of myself, of what i needed, of taking care of myself - physically, intellectually, emotionally... i wanted too, but there was never enough time,... I became MY last priority, and i was blaming HER for that... god i can't believe i didn't see this. its almost like i temporary became a 2..
    It is very normal and ealthy for an Entp 8 to go to high level 2. However sometimes an Entp 8 can want to go to healthy 2 subconsciously, but instead go to average or lower 2. Too much fixing or problem solving to the point of disregarding self. Lose boundaries. It can be about self esteem. Boundaries develop more eaaily with better self-esteem. You can't fix people or fix everyone. A healthier 8 that goes to healthier 2 teaches people how to help themseles instead of doing it for them. It's tempting to do more for a less helthy person. But it isn't a good path to go down. Wanting and expecting independence and interdependence from others is the better path. Sometimes it requires tough decisions and saying no.

    My infj was very independent which is partly what attracted me to her, a quiet intuitive strength. She became much more fragile over time and very good at hiding behind an image that she had it all together. And ÿea she was much more open and different with me in private than most others.

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