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  1. #801

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    This thread has been very helpful to me. It is incredibly difficult and sad to have your every day best friend in life disappear without warning. It'll likely never happen, but the dream is being contacted out of the blue to meet in person and have her apologize and explain it to me. Then, have her listen to me. And we can be supportive of one another and help one another. I was in it for life, regardless of what we were or weren't from a relationship standpoint. I was in it for life as a couple. But even if that doesn't work out, basic human decency back and forth isn't too much to ask.

    I understand what happened, but at some point being responsible and taking iniative is required.

  2. #802
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I liked your post on "eggshells" up there. I thought it was pretty apt, and it was nice to see someone obviously so interested in us INFJs to take the time and care to try to deal with us.

    Are eggshell moments the same thing as when an infj shuts others out and down because of some perceived hurt? I think wiki describes it best:

    INFJs have a rich, vivid inner life, which they may be reluctant to share with those around them. Nevertheless, they are congenial in their interactions, and perceptive of the emotions of others. Generally well-liked by their peers, they may often be considered close friends and confidants by most other types. However, they are guarded in expressing their own feelings, especially to new people, and so tend to establish close relationships slowly. INFJs tend to be easily hurt, though they may not reveal this except to their closest companions. INFJs may "silently withdraw as a way of setting limits", rather than expressing their wounded feelings—a behavior that may leave others confused and upset.

    If so, I guess that we all have our ways of coping with pain. And as with other types, I guess the best way to support us is with gentle love. I think you express some good points in your post about how you deal with your infj regarding resuming your life, and essentially ignoring the infj (after a certain period of time), and that is a not-bad plan, but I do best when, after some space (like 12-18 hours), I'm teased back into communicating....by a loving friend. Otherwise I might just continue to feel pain in the form of "oh, I guess they really don't care about be much/enough after all." Irrational, I know.

    Just sayin.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  3. #803
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    This thread has been very helpful to me. It is incredibly difficult and sad to have your every day best friend in life disappear without warning. It'll likely never happen, but the dream is being contacted out of the blue to meet in person and have her apologize and explain it to me. Then, have her listen to me. And we can be supportive of one another and help one another. I was in it for life, regardless of what we were or weren't from a relationship standpoint. I was in it for life as a couple. But even if that doesn't work out, basic human decency back and forth isn't too much to ask.

    I understand what happened, but at some point being responsible and taking iniative is required.
    Yah. Like I said...I feel for your situation. But to the bolded...I would bet my life-savings (okay that's not really a risk for me)...I would bet someone else's life savings that she will never contact you again. I'm just telling you this because I wish someone would have spelled-it-out for me two years ago. Even if she comes to her senses...she will most likely end-up retreating further. Or at least that is what happened to me. My INFJ actually still communicated with me some...(again...I was being blamed for stuff I didn't do)...when he was in a sort of 'self-righteous' mode. It wasn't until he figured out that I DIDN'T do what he was accusing me of that he went 'underground' and never spoke to me again. And no...I've never been able to figure out why. I don't know if it was pride or shame or what. But my point is...is even if she eventually comes to her senses...and realizes the hurt she has caused you...it will not make a difference. I would double-down in Vegas on this. I'm so sorry (don't waste 2 years of your life hurting over this. Get your money...and move forward with joy. Find yourself a nice INTJ girl <--- haha. They won't make you guess with regards to what is upsetting them haha!).

  4. #804

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I liked your post on "eggshells" up there. I thought it was pretty apt, and it was nice to see someone obviously so interested in us INFJs to take the time and care to try to deal with us.

    Are eggshell moments the same thing as when an infj shuts others out and down because of some perceived hurt? I think wiki describes it best:




    If so, I guess that we all have our ways of coping with pain. And as with other types, I guess the best way to support us is with gentle love. I think you express some good points in your post about how you deal with your infj regarding resuming your life, and essentially ignoring the infj (after a certain period of time), and that is a not-bad plan, but I do best when, after some space (like 12-18 hours), I'm teased back into communicating....by a loving friend. Otherwise I might just continue to feel pain in the form of "oh, I guess they really don't care about be much/enough after all." Irrational, I know.

    Just sayin.
    What helped a lot for me was when she and i were in person every day. We had a long distance relationship part of the time. I am very observant so in person was much easier. Prolonged long distance is trouble do to different communication styles. You can tell me everything is fine and I will take your word. In person I see that you aren't.

    In person, egg shells starts as her acting out her stress. Then it becomes her wanting more attention for her feelings on whatever happened or topic. Then the withdrawing, even in person in rhe same house is a punishment to me to not have her affection and attention and love until her feelings are addressed more or change. What helped my infj is when I was confident, calm, relaxed, attentive, explained that I understood. Sometimes I don't think the infj is even sure why they are upset.

    A balance between perfectionism and "Good enough."
    A balance between low key and going out and being spontaneous helped. Setting up good healthy routines helped. Example my infj is a dancer but wasn't dancing. Then dance. She started doong that again. Don't just talk about your art, go create some even if imperfect.

    When I wasn't around she wasn't able to sustain a lot of the positives for long enough periods, combined with the stress going on on her/our life.

    Her best moments were the small ones, where she was in the moment not caring about her image, and making sure those things didn't get too prolonged or out of hand like a low level Estp.

    It's a shame she disappeared for months and months. She ignored heart felt emails and phone messages. She never once contacted me to talk in person, on the phone, or email back and forth to work out problems. One phone call 7 months ago, very brief, one email very brief and one other email a few months later. Then two very brief calls 5-6 months later that i made that caught her by surprise. Her defensive anger, short, dictatorial stance didn't budge, just empty promises that I would be paid some time. The details, the back and forth long distance, too much alone time for her, jealousy of simple happiness of others, irrational thinking of not getting enough attention when she did, lazer focus on her vision to the point where nothing else mattered, including me. Then confusing facts and clarifying information or misinformation. Re-reading old emails looking for negative things to support that state of mind. She felt she had gotten everything out of me, and wanted more. We were and are so far apart on that one. It was very tough for me, especially long distance part of the time, to recognize the slide into the grip. If we were in person 100 percent of the time, perhaps the end result would have been different.

    But no matter what, at some point my infj has to step up, reach out and want to talk, exchange dialogue, facts, feelings, etc.. because she has so many facts wrong. And she has so many wrong assumptions about what i think and feel.

    For whatever reasons, mostly irrational, she panicked that her grand vision would not come to fruition. I came through as promised but it disn't matter. She changed, was a different person, lost balance and never recovered. Some things not having to do with me triggered this panic and fear with her. But I am receiving the blame. Now it has been all about her wishes and desires, zero reaponsibility to anyone or anything.

    The only way things will get better for her would be to reach out to me. But she doesn't have the courage to do that. And she wrongly assumes I would be hostile instead of friendly. Wrong assumptions happen when you stop communicating. She chose to burn bridges with many. She chose to lie about me, and hide things. She can still come clean and get a great deal out of it but she is chosing the dark side still until someone forcefully stops her. She was a very principled person prior to that, very. It was beyond shocking.

    It is very sad for me, very mind boggling. Some days are incredibly sad, like today. I think of endless good things that she threw away for no reason, for image, for grandiose visions. ....all the things I wasn't interested in as opposed to who she really was underneath. That part, she was the beat most compatible person I had met. I've tried every which way to get her to simply meet and make things better but 7 months later she hasn't budged one inch.

  5. #805
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Her loss. <3

    Maybe God will give her courage to come to you. Or maybe you are not her path. Until then just send your love her way, and pray.

    That's all you can really do.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  6. #806

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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Her loss. <3

    Maybe God will give her courage to come to you. Or maybe you are not her path. Until then just send your love her way, and pray.

    That's all you can really do.
    Thanks. I hope every day she finds that courage but I also understand it isn't likely.

    It was very hard for me to iniate legal action against her, but I had no other options. That may have permanently ended any chance for a peaceful deal with her. But I was convinced with good reason that she was going to permanently avoid responsibility. Her initial response to legal action has been defiance and ignore. That was a bit surprising at first. She just won't Come to the table. I didn't and don't want legal action but I was left without choice. Now after some legal action I have to wait a while to proceed more due to the very high legal costs involved. So now it has been back to trying to get her to meet with me or others to sign some papers for a deal. Zero response yet.

  7. #807

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Yah. Like I said...I feel for your situation. But to the bolded...I would bet my life-savings (okay that's not really a risk for me)...I would bet someone else's life savings that she will never contact you again. I'm just telling you this because I wish someone would have spelled-it-out for me two years ago. Even if she comes to her senses...she will most likely end-up retreating further. Or at least that is what happened to me. My INFJ actually still communicated with me some...(again...I was being blamed for stuff I didn't do)...when he was in a sort of 'self-righteous' mode. It wasn't until he figured out that I DIDN'T do what he was accusing me of that he went 'underground' and never spoke to me again. And no...I've never been able to figure out why. I don't know if it was pride or shame or what. But my point is...is even if she eventually comes to her senses...and realizes the hurt she has caused you...it will not make a difference. I would double-down in Vegas on this. I'm so sorry (don't waste 2 years of your life hurting over this. Get your money...and move forward with joy. Find yourself a nice INTJ girl <--- haha. They won't make you guess with regards to what is upsetting them haha!).
    The better things are going in other aspects of your life the better it can be handled. So, that varies.

    Yes, I was door slammed hastily for the wrong reasons do to overwhelming stress dor her not caused by me. She really didn't care if I caused her stress or not, she still had it and she still wantes me to magically solve it. A goodbye conversation as well as making sure everything was divided up fair and equitably was a basic thing that disn't happen.

    Some days are sad, some are angry, some where she isn't much of a factor. She somehow delusionally thought I had changed or that I wasn't living up to what she wanted. I hadn't changed significanty in any way. Her stress changed and increased. But that was beyond my control.

    I can retrace steps to see her slide more clearly, but not as much at the time. But commitment and loyalty are things i take seriously. No matter the stress or problems, to not even discuss them or work on them first is the hardest part. Doing this leads er to very false assumptions and conclusions...way off base, off the wall.

    I overestimated her commitment and loyalty to me, by a lot. I know that in the end she became sick and some day I'll get over it but that will take time, lots of it, years. The damage she caused was great.

    I believe she became overwhelmed and retreated, and it was shame, humiliation. I think narcissism was part of it where a narcissistic person will do and say anything to avoid that. The lengths they'll go are way more extreme than I ever could have imagined. All it would have taken was a phone call and in person meeting.

    If you are unsure, ask, ask, ask some more, ask, ask, ask. I went out of my way to guess, to try everything. She just decided to make things up irrationally and believe them.

    She, and infj's, have much more of an ability to be alone permanently at the snap of a finger forever than I do. I find that amazing, sad, ruthless, and so many other things ar the same time.

    But yes, the key is yourself, work on yourself, and your life and immediately meet new people etc...life does not stop. The defiance that life stops, or everything will only be done on her time if at all. The arrogance of that. It isn't realistic. It isn't reality. Basic reality and responsibility will always come before feelings. Basic practical matters, nothing more. I would then listen to your feelings for hours, days, years. There is a line there. Previously she never came close to crossing it. But then she went out of control with it.

    I am in a tough spot. Ignoring her entirely is much preferred for my well being. But big unreaolved issues prevent that too.

    As I said, to disappear after every day interaction for several years, the mindset to be able to do that is just not something to which I can relate or understand, no matter how hard i try. But life is life, it keeps moving whether you move with it or not.

  8. #808
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    can't talk for balancefield, but i've being there...
    when my exwife started reaching for the door - as her main solution to any problem (and later, when i got her to reopen the door ever so slightly for a little while before it got doorslammed again), when it feels like any "wrong" move on your part will lead to the doorslam, including bringing up any problem in your dynamics at the time and including bringing up this one as a problem, and yet she, having no such problems and having no problem doing anything that may be wrong by me, indulges in that freedom without you having the freedom to respond on equal terms.

    you have to be understanding towards her in ways she won't be towards you, you have to be willing to take the crap in ways she won't tolerate from you, and you can say nothing about it or it will be the last thing you say. its' a point where you can no longer trust her to take what she dishes or to even notice what she dishes, you can no longer trust her to examplify the boundaries she needs, you can no longer trust her to be fair in her interactions with you, and worst of all - you can no longer trust her to be aware of her own power play. i know my exwife isn't because gods know how she judges people who are and would still do it.

    i think what balancefield is saying is that in that situation, he would rather not do so at all - that if that is their solution then the relationship isn't worthwhile to maintain - and if the value of a relationship was based on mutual willingness and capacity to work on it and understand each other, he'd be right.

    unfortunately relationships aren't equal, and sometimes relationships have carried value of what you invest in them. for him it was mainly possessions. for me it was my relationship with stepson.
    Ah, she was trying to dictate the terms of the relationship to fit her needs but not yours. I can see both perspectives here, I think. From an INFJ perspective, she was probably hurt emotionally and was trying to control the situation to protect herself. Yet, at the same time lashing out at you. It sounds like the behavior of a hurt, angry INFJ. Her approach was functional in terms of self-preservation but not functional in addressing the issues of your relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    This would be interesting for me to hear as well.

    I do know, though, that occasionally, especially if I'm under stress, I can be very emotional -- and little 'insensitive' comments will hurt me and provoke a strong emotional reaction, like I would suddenly start crying over something that might be perceived as insignificant. My SO is an INFP -- so usually he tries to be sensitive about things, unless he's under stress as well. I can imagine that for NTs it would be even harder for them to gauge someone's emotional state in the first place and would think we are overreacting?
    Well, my NT ex had a tendency to not validate my feelings or way of thinking. This became toxic to me over the long-haul both emotionally and health-wise. I think NTs can gauge emotional states but may not give them the importance they should from an NF's perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    Sure. Walking on egg shells happens when the infj is at an average level, not good, not terrible. I'd call it low average level. It happens when the infj is upset about something or somethings. This could be legit, or exaggerated reaction by the infj, or imagined. It is when the infj is very short, snappy in a negative way and finds fault with just about everything of the other. Often times this reaction comes across as pouting, disproportional to the offending action. The non infj can fight and argue but the sense is that the infj needs space and quiet. This doesn't work either because it is very important to the infj that you don't ignore them. Nothing seems to work to make the infj feel better. There is a concern by non-infj that nothing the non-infj can say or do will be greeted bu anything but negativity, not calm, objective, rational, reality. And the non-infj recognizes this mood of the infj and doesn't want rhe time and stress of dealing with too much negative feelings, which is exhausting and unnecessary. No balance.

    So first it is hypersensitivity, overreaction, as well as finding fault with every little thing. It is also overanalyzing, overinterpreting comments, gestures from everyone in a negative way, when most of them are not meant to hurt you. It is also correcting people. Then when distance is given, pouting begins and it is a game of hide and seek. If this happens often or if an incident is prolonged, this is exhausting to the non-infj.

    What I learned is a good balance. At first I am sympathetic, direct, caring, calm, polite, and this works quickly sometimes. But if the infj carries on too long about it, I just live my life normally.

    Random example: She stays home instead of picking up food or running an errand. I will keep living life and getting it done with or without her. She likes to cook sometimes, as do I. She will stop entirely, trying to punish me in a small way. I will just do it. I will acknowledge her punishing me sometimes and her pouting. But if it is disproportional or too much I keep getting things done. If I am at fault, I am apologetic right away and I do the work until I believe she is carrying on too long about it.

    What I learned is to be positive and supportive daily, which I was and am. Then it is up to me to be willing to calmly say enough is enough about whatever it is and keep living daily instead of coddling to her feelings. This takes healthy self esteem. I make sure to say I understand your feelings and respect them before I say enough is enough because ignoring an infj really angers them.

    In the beginning I was too nice and tolerant of the egg shells. The only times I ever got a little snappy back was if I was ever corrected by her in public. That's a big no no.

    The egg shells happened once in a while, but not that often. The infj can quickly realize he/she is overreacting and calms down. The infj can pout longer, then later over compensate by trying too hard to give the other attention, or in more extreme cases it can lead to a door slam.

    It is up to me to be healthy for both myself and the infj and try my best. If I have healthy self esteem then that is plenty good enough for me. More often I would help my infj loosen up about small things that others did to irritate her and not me. Egg shells were not common but happened once in a while. If it was common it likely would have led to the end of the relationship much sooner.

    Nobody is perfect. I have many character flaws and areas of needed improvement that I manage daily. So I don't expect nor want perfection in return. She was much better when not perfectionistic, just wanting good quality. So I have learned to take more control of myself in the situation and not let the infj wallow in hurt feelings. I keep living with or without her, preferably with of course. But I have learned that if the egg shells are unreasonable, to stand my ground and be okay with her response because it is 50/50 not just about the infj. If the infj can't see that, time to move on in life.

    It's the thought or idea of doing my best and letting things fall where they fall and that's good enough. One person cannot dictate emotions, feelings, actions in a relationship. Many recipients of egg shells coddle the infj every time which lowers the non-infj's self esteem because they don't want to be yelled at or be embarrassed in public. That is too exhausting and too self defeating. The non-infj has to be okay with conflict and focus more on what's fair not just what the infj wants. That is a risk that the non-infj has to be willing to take. And, if the non-infj has healthy self-esteem they will.
    It sounds like she engaged in passive-aggressive behavior a lot. That's never a good way to communicate. She probably didn't realize that.

    I suggest your person tell you every time when it's egg shells, right away, early so it can be nipped in the bud quickly. Then you both have to decide was it big or small or nothing and solve accordingly.

    I told mine when she would vent about a taxi driver or store clerk, etc.. that not everyone has the best day every day and it's not a big deal, after I agree first. Again this didn't happen often but the pattern was easy to spot. She even jokingly called herself a cranky toddler when in this state which I lovingly and jokingly would say later on as a warning for her. Humor helps a lot. Getting the infj to be less serious and laugh especially at oneself was very valuable.

    For you, the infj, I would sit down with a friend or someone who knows and has seen the egg shells and you could get a better understanding to be able to recognize it in yourself so that you can better decide if your acrions or responses are appropriate for the events or situation.

    Early direct communication, in person helps most.
    Thank you for this information. It sounds like you thought a lot about how to best interact with her and found positive ways to do so. Concerning your mention in other posts here about being able to see what was going on with her in person so much better than by long-distance....I have a theory about getting around doorslams. For me, when I've cut someone out of my life (very rare) I feel consciously oblivious to the pain it caused them. So, the realization of how hurtful it is to them must operate on a subconscious level. Why is that? I have no idea. I do have a sense, however, that if my inferior Se were engaged i.e. I saw them in person I wouldn't be able to be cold to them. In particular, if I cut off contact with someone and they showed up looking pretty devasted and sad that would really pull at my heart strings. When you're out of physical contact with the person it's much easier to dismiss them and their feelings. So, maybe the way around a doorslam is to try to see them in person and let them SEE by facial expressions how much hurt and anguish they have caused? It's an untested theory but might be worth a try to get some closure.

  9. #809

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    I do appreciate the responses. I do agree about the in person stuff. I believe this could have been resolved in person. There was a big disconnect as to what she thought I thought, and what was real.

    I can't get her to answer the phone, when it's not turned off for weeks at a time. No one else can either. If you were an "old" friend, you are out, especially if you mention me in any calm way. She is now living in OUR new beach home in a gated community in another country. She told me briefly on the phone when I calmly, politely said I wanted to go there to meet with her to see our new home...not to come and that she had a restraining order against me an she would call the police. Delusional. It was likely a bluff, buy not a chance I wanted to take in another country where which is my 2nd language. On advice of attorneys there, I was told not to go there. Later they said it was okay to try as long as I brought a 3rd party or mutual friend. By the time it was okay I had to return to the states.

    When she originally door slammed me in Sept, she turned her phone off and stopped answering emails. I did send periodic emails of heart felt support and understanding over months time. She received plenty of space. I then decided to go all out starting in January to resolve my situation. I couldn't a flight until beginning of March and I went there. Mostly was trying to find out where she was, contact friends, etc...attorneys. She knew I was coming.

    She knows I exposed her to some people in both countries. I know this set her off in a bad way, narcissistic humiliation. I had no choice. Her response was lies, cover up, pitting me against our friends, where now they do not want involvement and won't talk with me. I get my information from others and she has not been calm or rational at all. i'm surprised she hasn't been these things yet. I think she is panicked, hiding out, defiant, thinking I am out to get her.

    Her lies about me have been probably the most shocking and damaging. And, she admitted doing them to me on the phone in a brief call. That was a bit scary. I am afraid to meet with her alone, and I do not scare easily. I know unstable when I see or hear it.

    She has gone to Such lengths to lie and scheme and cover up, I mean crazy lies like the movies. Fortunately for me the few people that matter understand the truth, and fortunately for me I have a lot of proof too. It is not much consolation. I have learned the hard way that a person can completely make things up and can ruin your life bu doing so. Even if you have proof otherwise, it takes a lot of money and a few years to resolve legally. She can flip a switch in public to others and be extremely believable. She is well liked. Many would be shocked ad wouldn't believe it.

    When she got out of control in self indulgence, I cut her off financially out of self preservation. She thought I was just punishing her for no reason. It later clicked in how self indulgent she became and unrealistic, and she figured out that I always told the truth, I always came through in a loving, supportive manner. Her response was all about her and her messes that she created.

    I can say without hesitation that once the low level Estp grip was triggered for her, it's as if she became a different person, someone I didn't know, hadn't met, hasn't seen. She even warned me out loud once in an email that she was etting flashbacks to aome bad part o her past of which I know nothing about. Stress caused this trigger of Estp grip. I of course did everything to let her know everything was fine.

    Turns out this was not the first time this happened for her. She was a master, I mean a master at making it look like she had her stuff together and often did. Money was never a previous issue, 50/50, both generous but very normal.

    She gets a vision, overly fixates on it. She overspends and disregards laws when in the grip.

    I'll probably get lumped in with her bad past and not the good parts. If we had no romantic or financial involvement, we'd likely has been life long friends.

    She is a classic 4w3 infj. And she showed all ranges in level of health and development at different times.

    To go from such a high level for such a long period to boom, off a cliff, is hard to fathom. At any time a call to me, meet with me, I got your back. I will help you. It will be okay. Nothing. Just lying, stealing, cheating, cover up, hiding.

    Even now, just work a win win deal with me, then I'll help you get some help, no problem. Nope.

    She doesn't answer phone, deletes voicemails and emails without listening or reading, drom anyone that knows me. I'll be okay once I get out of these jams and problems she created for me, which will take a while. I do remember the many good legit years too. She just threw that away by withdrawing and believing some off the wall stuff instead of talking in person. When that big trigger happened, she was never the same. That was last June.

    But I do appreciate the interaction here a lot. Anything really helps.

  10. #810
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    @BalanceFind: I just took some time to read through some of your original posts about this situation as I had not done so previously. As others have suggested, it seems like you are sort of stuck focusing on this situation, trying to figure it out and not moving forward too much except for starting legal proceedings. Being really emotionally traumatized by someone can do that to you. Perhaps it would be good to consider seeing a psychologist to talk about your situation if you haven't yet done so. Also, taking an anti-depressant could help prevent excessive thinking about what the INFJ did to you/how she is feeling now and help you to move forward if you feel that is an issue.

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