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  1. #751

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    So, does anyone here have experience with narcissists, preferably infj narcissists, but any will do? Thanks.

  2. #752
    Dope Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    I believe i understand this quite well. I do understand your points, and while some apply, some don't for me, and no i'm not just talking about my example.

    As I stated in my example, my panic came from my fear that something terrible happened to my infj. Then my panic was about fixing the devastation she caused. I am fully capable of understanding more tame examples. In more tame examples, I most certainly could move on with more minor loose ends. As I stated, my first reaction would be shock, then try to meet and talk and work it out. But after a brief period of a few weeks or a few months, i would move on with my life. i would not forget. I never forget. And, I also in more tame examples, would be open to revisiting a relationship.

    I don't erase people from my memory or existance and i don't want it to be done to me either.

    I have learned in life that there will always be loose ends. I can live with that. It isn't preferred. And in extreme cases such as mine, they are unacceptable. But if I believe I am being mistreated and there are minor loose ends, after my being door slammed, those loose ends will sit there until the door slammer addresses them some day.

    There is an unspoken silence of loose ends, but people have to live their life too. I would never door slam someone, including someone who door slammed me.
    I'm trying to figure out how to respond here. I still don't get the sense that you and I are saying anything all that different. I think part of the issue is that I have a tendancy to use extremes (edit: speak in extremes) in order to find the common ground which is a method that is not useful for everyone.

    It seems to me you are saying (and I've actually seen other responses from you here that have hinted to this)...that HAD there been no money involved...that had this merely been a case of someone you were in a relationship with cutting-off all communication with no verbal/written explanation...that after a few attempts reaching-out & subsequently learning that she was safe - she just didn't want to communicate with you anymore...you would have been okay with that. That in your world...that would have been a manageable 'loose-end'. Is that accurate?

    See for me that's not. In other words, that is similiar to what happened to me...and that is WAY too big of a loose-end for me to just shrug my shoulders and say 'oh well'. It was way too traumatic for me to get off the phone with my INFJ on a Thursday...saying...'Whooo yah! See you at <insert location>!'...only to arrive at <insert location> on a Friday and learn that person is no longer talking to me and refuses to explain why (I won't go into detail here but all of this was made worse when I discovered I was being blamed for things I didn't even do). <--- So yah again...while I understand that there are always going to be some minor loose-ends in life...this experience wasn't one of them. If this person would have approached me and said...'I don't want you in my life anymore because of a, b & c'...it still would have been painful...but I could have worked through it. Like had the relationship ended in a way most relationships end...I would have sucked-it-up and dealt with it. But the shock of it all was too much for my system. And I have spent longer than I care to admit questioning reality...my judgment...and my ability to trust others has been shattered.

    ^^^so I have a huge, confusing hurt that I will seemingly never be able to address like grown-ups do. And I sense that the only way I will be able to walk away from this is just to close-off that aspect of myself...honestly just forget about it...and move forward in hope of a better tomorrow. It is not like I'm 'doorslamming my doorslammer'. I'm not running from him...blocking him on facebook or whatever people do when they doorslam. But I do feel I am doing something that will end-up being more permanant. I am (I haven't done this yet but it will end-up happening)...completely closing myself off emotionally to that possibility of him ever being able to effect me again. It is difficult to explain...and I wish I could explain that better. It is actually not a negative thing or at the very least a negative experience. Maybe it's more like a surrender? I don't know. All I know is that once I do what I'm about to do...I will be immune to all gestures...like even if a miracle were to happen and he came to ask for my forgiveness. Again, I wish I could explain this properly.

  3. #753
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I don't know if "haven't heard" is actually the most accurate way to put it.

    It's just that you've urged INFJs to see the perspective of others, so much. And yet, when I try to describe how a "doorslam" is likely to have followed an awful lot of trying to see the perspective of the other person, and trying to share your own - and that the doorslam is in part because the other person refuses to see that in an equal relationship everyone's rights have to be taken under consideration - it's been repeatedly dismissed or described as special pleading. To the extent that I feel like I've been punching the air.

    I, and others, have described in detail how we've tried to fix relationships, or to do our part in fixing them - not without making our own mistakes, obviously - but how in some cases things have not proved fixable, partly because the other person repeatedly infringes on my rights, or overwhelms me even when given specific pointers on how NOT to overwhelm me, or disregards my feelings severely and repeatedly, or demonstrates that their approach to the relationship (whatever its nature) is utterly incompatible with my own - etc.

    And it seems like, according to you, none of that is valid when coming from "INFJs" and it just proves that we've got blind spots far more hideous than those of any other type. Because the only thing that IS valid is bending over backwards and breaking yourself in half to try and accommodate the other person's perspective - even if they are doing nothing of the kind for you. And all too often in this thread the only thing that gets "heard" is what confirms your current bad view of "INFJs" and "INFJ doorslams" (all of which, apparently, fall under one and the same umbrella.)

    Yeah, no kidding. The guy actually tried to equate my friend’s behavior with my own reaction to it- the act of aggressively imposing one’s own will onto another person (and blocking out their perspective in doing so, just treating them like a warm body to whom you are entitled to dictate reality to) and the self preserving act of blocking out that over-entitled perspective for the sake of protecting oneself. It’s like saying there’s no difference between attacking someone with a knife because you want something from them and feel entitled to it- and using a knife in self-defense because someone else is attacking you- because both instances are using a knife. And apparently when other types do it- when other types block out a perspective, it’s not a problem (as the poster I’m referring to has consistently blocked out other perspectives for the sake of keeping his own untouched and intact)- but OMG when an INFJ does it? Even in self defense? Clearly it’s because they’re using shadow functions!

    And any INFJ who doesn’t ‘admit’ to doing the same thing when they are protecting themselves- that blocking out a perspective is “the same” whether it’s on the offensive end or the defensive end- is being hypocritical…..if he refuses to see how insisting this is completely asinine, there’s really no point in even trying to communicate.

    What’s especially bizarre to me is when people start accusing INFJs of not “taking accountability” for something their INFJ supposedly did…..because this is not the first time it’s happened. WTF? I mean- I have my own theory about why my ENTP ex behaved the way he did…..but I don’t see other ENTPs as being hypocritical for not agreeing they do the same thing. Not many ENTPs do the same thing mine did. I really don’t understand this need for people to have other INFJs take accountability for something one particular INFJ *might* have done. It’s completely bizarre to me. Yet it seems to be a recurring pattern- for people to show up wanting us to say “yes, this is something we do.” And as soon as someone demonstrates this bizarre need, it’s practically pointless to engage in dialogue with them- they hear everything we say as some kind of excuse to avoid ‘admitting’ they’re right (because THEY are wholly preoccupied with being ‘right’ themselves- keeping their own perspective intact- and they block any perspective which suggests otherwise…..all while explaining WE are the ones doing it…..but anyway…). Seriously though, what’s up with that? It’s just odd to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Z Buck is eloquent...
    As is evidenced by my use of the hideyhole emoticon, the shitting baby emoticon, and my incredibly short temper with this thread and everything that gets said here…..and possibly in other parts of the forum as well…

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ...but I did start to suspect that some of the reaction we are seeing in this thread from ENPs...comes from a place of total panic. You see...we are not capable of moving forward when there are loose-ends. I mean...it just really isn't in us to do so. And so if the loose-end isn't addressed in a way that makes us feel comfortable moving forward...the only thing we can do is to completely close ourselves off emotionally (shit mentally, spiritually as well) to the other individual and pretend 'it' never happened. And when it comes to people we care about...well this is where the panic comes from. It is almost like...'you don't know what you are asking me to do'. You are asking me to completely erase you from my existance and I am reluctant to do that. It is weird to me to consider WE are the real doorslammers in the bunch.
    Yeah, we had an interesting convo about this. I think that INJs are as reluctant to commit to internal possibilities (and where interpersonal is concerned, this is more INFJ) as ENPs are reluctant to commit to external possibilities. We don’t like to nail much of anything down as absolutely permanent. INFJs rarely truly write someone off- that it’s a matter of “this person probably won’t stop to understand where I’m coming from anytime soon, so it’s not worth the effort of maintaining communication”…..but part of us always stays open *if the right words* ever proved that they have begun to understand what they previously failed to take into account. We might get sick of trying with someone, but the possibility that they might *get it* at some point in the future (or even the possibility we might *get* something we missed ourselves) always sort of lingers- it’s just more like “this does not make sense right now, I need to move on.” We don’t have to put effort into maintaining it, and it’s even strange to me to imagine *not* having these possibilities always floating in the background- and I think it actually maybe agitates ENPs to have too many internal possibilities lingering around so they want certain things DECIDED about internal perception…..so they project a finality into it, which makes the ‘doorslam’ understandably more menacing to them?

    In short, for INFJs: “It’s not worth maintaining communication” = “It’s not worth maintaining communication right now, or until I see some indication the other person is willing to be more reasonable.” But for ENPs “It’s not worth maintaining communication” = “It’s not worth maintaining communication FOREVER MWHA-HA-HA-HA!” Maybe. Dunno. It’s just something Starry and I discussed and both of us were all “Oooooohhhh” like we were onto something good. (And it was just as revealing for me as it was for her- I have a hard time grasping what it would be like to *need* to shut down those kinds of possibilities.)

    I would only permanently write off the possibility with someone who does something really bad (and it shows there’s something so ‘off’ about their character that they should never be trusted). But most of the time I think doorslams are because communication has gotten overwhelming, it seems like there are just too many mixed messages in what the other person is saying and it needs to be cut off. And more often than not they do end up being permanent because people generally don’t change- but the possibility that they might almost always lingers? At least for me it does.
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  4. #754

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm not sure if you are able to see... that what you are saying (specific to your situation)...and what I'm saying are really no different. Hopefully, I will be able to expand on this more as the thoughts come to me...
    I think we understand each other just fine. I think we agree on some things but not on some others.

    Loose ends is a loose term. I can move on just fine without major life changing loose ends on the table. I would be shocked, hurt, outraged. I would try extremely hard to resolve loose ends. I would give myself a fair amount of time to do it. But that's it. I would then live my life without the door slammer. The next time I hear from that person down the road, my guard is way up. It would take effort on their part over time to earn trust. If they never come back that would be fine. I would live just fine without them. I would not forget the loose ends nor the door slam over time. If they came back we start from the door slam, not new or fresh. Time changes nothing.

    So you can see we can agree on some things and not others. Door slamming is often about self esteem. If someone would do something so terrible to me like that, my next move is to move on without them but not forgetting them.

    I'm in a tough spot because of the money and material possessions. I am not in a position to walk from that. And I even have to have feelings and actions that I don't like because of it. I'll never erase and I will never forget. It doesn't help me or my self esteem.

  5. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    The next time I hear from that person down the road, my guard is way up. It would take effort on their part over time to earn trust.
    i am sort of concerned about this happening to me with my ex-wife.

    on one hand i want to let loose, rationally i know that it's best for me... and it's sort of happening. in the same time, i don't want it to be replaced with anger and hostility and mistrust towards her, because i know that those will be self-destructive if i ever come across an oppertunity to see my son again, as much as i wish i could just let it all out in the open to the same extent she has allowed herself with me, i have very little faith that she can actually face any of it coming from me - for her me saying anything "mean" or negative about her just makes makes me into a mean man, i don't trust anymore that she has the capacity to question whether her actions where actually negative in their nature... but i do know she has the capacity to see through my guard... also, i don't have that much of a guard.

  6. #756

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i am sort of concerned about this happening to me with my ex-wife.

    on one hand i want to let loose, rationally i know that it's best for me... and it's sort of happening. in the same time, i don't want it to be replaced with anger and hostility and mistrust towards her, because i know that those will be self-destructive if i ever come across an oppertunity to see my son again, as much as i wish i could just let it all out in the open to the same extent she has allowed herself with me, i have very little faith that she can actually face any of it coming from me - for her me saying anything "mean" or negative about her just makes makes me into a mean man, i don't trust anymore that she has the capacity to question whether her actions where actually negative in their nature... but i do know she has the capacity to see through my guard... also, i don't have that much of a guard.
    I'm going to have to go back and re-read your story from the beginning to give you a more informed opinion. But I will do that and get back to you on that.

    One of the things i have had to do is learn how to make tough choices sooner in relationships. Relationships are about what has happened and what is happening now. Enp's are great at finding or taking someone with potential and helping that person help themselves. The problem is not everyone can be helped and when to decide that. Loyalty, being competitive, etc..can get in the way.

    I've always been great at making great observations and tough decisions for other people more than myself. When it comes to relationships I have learned to only go by facts of what has happened and is happening. You give the other person a chance to get it together, and even offer up some help. But it is important at least for me to not settle, not be too loyal, to not just go by potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I have my own theory about why my ENTP ex behaved the way he did….
    feel free to share, as i answered to the very post you quoted - that could actually change my view.

    on the other hand, if like i expect your going to come up with some redicules escuse to why you can't, combined with the facts that your a grown woman (i perusme) doing the highschool "i'll just talk about him in 3rd person thing as if he's not here" thing, can't talk to my face, can't demonstrate your points about me, can't actually address or argue my points other then the a slipper slope argument and couldn't hold your argument rationally to began with... and yet for some reason has a line of people who would like to sit and talk like adults with her but is responding with *fingers in ears* "lalalalalala".... a.k.a. doorslam (let's face it: that is exactly what it is)...

    its not going to seem like a huge coincidence.

  8. #758
    Member Grizzly On The Loose's Avatar
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    Unhealthy INFJs are a pain in the ass to argue with. Combine a raging victim complex with self-righteousness, inability to see beyond their own feelings, judgmentalness, overt sensitivity and rudeness, then put them in the same ring with an annoyed ENTJ and you've got a spectacular fight to behold. It's always INFJs who win, though, and the longer the fight lasts, the stronger they are.
    ENTJ 5w6 so/sp SLE

  9. #759

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, no kidding. The guy actually tried to equate my friend’s behavior with my own reaction to it- the act of aggressively imposing one’s own will onto another person (and blocking out their perspective in doing so, just treating them like a warm body to whom you are entitled to dictate reality to) and the self preserving act of blocking out that over-entitled perspective for the sake of protecting oneself. It’s like saying there’s no difference between attacking someone with a knife because you want something from them and feel entitled to it- and using a knife in self-defense because someone else is attacking you- because both instances are using a knife. And apparently when other types do it- when other types block out a perspective, it’s not a problem (as the poster I’m referring to has consistently blocked out other perspectives for the sake of keeping his own untouched and intact)- but OMG when an INFJ does it? Even in self defense? Clearly it’s because they’re using shadow functions!

    And any INFJ who doesn’t ‘admit’ to doing the same thing when they are protecting themselves- that blocking out a perspective is “the same” whether it’s on the offensive end or the defensive end- is being hypocritical…..if he refuses to see how insisting this is completely asinine, there’s really no point in even trying to communicate.

    What’s especially bizarre to me is when people start accusing INFJs of not “taking accountability” for something their INFJ supposedly did…..because this is not the first time it’s happened. WTF? I mean- I have my own theory about why my ENTP ex behaved the way he did…..but I don’t see other ENTPs as being hypocritical for not agreeing they do the same thing. Not many ENTPs do the same thing mine did. I really don’t understand this need for people to have other INFJs take accountability for something one particular INFJ *might* have done. It’s completely bizarre to me. Yet it seems to be a recurring pattern- for people to show up wanting us to say “yes, this is something we do.” And as soon as someone demonstrates this bizarre need, it’s practically pointless to engage in dialogue with them- they hear everything we say as some kind of excuse to avoid ‘admitting’ they’re right (because THEY are wholly preoccupied with being ‘right’ themselves- keeping their own perspective intact- and they block any perspective which suggests otherwise…..all while explaining WE are the ones doing it…..but anyway…). Seriously though, what’s up with that? It’s just odd to me.



    As is evidenced by my use of the hideyhole emoticon, the shitting baby emoticon, and my incredibly short temper with this thread and everything that gets said here…..and possibly in other parts of the forum as well…



    Yeah, we had an interesting convo about this. I think that INJs are as reluctant to commit to internal possibilities (and where interpersonal is concerned, this is more INFJ) as ENPs are reluctant to commit to external possibilities. We don’t like to nail much of anything down as absolutely permanent. INFJs rarely truly write someone off- that it’s a matter of “this person probably won’t stop to understand where I’m coming from anytime soon, so it’s not worth the effort of maintaining communication”…..but part of us always stays open *if the right words* ever proved that they have begun to understand what they previously failed to take into account. We might get sick of trying with someone, but the possibility that they might *get it* at some point in the future (or even the possibility we might *get* something we missed ourselves) always sort of lingers- it’s just more like “this does not make sense right now, I need to move on.” We don’t have to put effort into maintaining it, and it’s even strange to me to imagine *not* having these possibilities always floating in the background- and I think it actually maybe agitates ENPs to have too many internal possibilities lingering around so they want certain things DECIDED about internal perception…..so they project a finality into it, which makes the ‘doorslam’ understandably more menacing to them?

    In short, for INFJs: “It’s not worth maintaining communication” = “It’s not worth maintaining communication right now, or until I see some indication the other person is willing to be more reasonable.” But for ENPs “It’s not worth maintaining communication” = “It’s not worth maintaining communication FOREVER MWHA-HA-HA-HA!” Maybe. Dunno. It’s just something Starry and I discussed and both of us were all “Oooooohhhh” like we were onto something good. (And it was just as revealing for me as it was for her- I have a hard time grasping what it would be like to *need* to shut down those kinds of possibilities.)

    I would only permanently write off the possibility with someone who does something really bad (and it shows there’s something so ‘off’ about their character that they should never be trusted). But most of the time I think doorslams are because communication has gotten overwhelming, it seems like there are just too many mixed messages in what the other person is saying and it needs to be cut off. And more often than not they do end up being permanent because people generally don’t change- but the possibility that they might almost always lingers? At least for me it does.
    I am a very perceptive person. But the biggest problem is I can't read your mind. Sometimes some infj's expect you to read their minds. That's not realistic and it's not going to happen much of the time. I could be your dream guy, soulmate, you name it, but you still must speak up in a timely fashion. Finding some balance in this is essential for infj's in my opinion. People like me can do our best to anticipate and understand and communicate indirectly, but only part of the time.

    One thing I learned through experience was to not walk on egg shells, as long as i didn't deserve to do so. Then the infj comes around or I move on. If I deserve it, then i will walk on egg shells as deserved and try to make up for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    But the biggest problem is I can't read your mind. Sometimes some infj's expect you to read their minds.
    And if you ask them to clearly explain their thoughts and tell you what the hell is wrong, they can't (or won't) do it, and usually answer with plain insults.
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