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  1. #721
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    And, some infj's door slam without all of that effort too. Sometimes it's done in haste. Sometimes it is done with errors of fact. Not all door slams are the same.

    Not all infj's are the same. Some are healthier than others. Some have more or less developed area than others. This of course can also be said for any type.

    For me, getting a wide variety of perspectives from both infj's and non infj's here can give me a lot of info and gain a better general understanding before specifically addressing my own situation.
    I agree, not all doorslams are the same - and in fact I think it's been established that all types do it at least sometimes and everyone's got their own reasons or their own approach. And no, it's not always "right" to do it. I think you'll find with many INFJs that they second-guess themselves a great deal over such things even if they feel it was ultimately "right". That certainly applies to me.

    But being told "doorslams are always wrong and blind" - which has come up many times in this thread - that I am not going to agree with.
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  2. #722

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I agree, not all doorslams are the same - and in fact I think it's been established that all types do it at least sometimes and everyone's got their own reasons or their own approach. And no, it's not always "right" to do it. I think you'll find with many INFJs that they second-guess themselves a great deal over such things even if they feel it was ultimately "right". That certainly applies to me.

    But being told "doorslams are always wrong and blind" - which has come up many times in this thread - that I am not going to agree with.
    I actually think they're very good, what is Ghandi's or MLK's non-violence other than door slams? What about the striker's principle of folding arms rather than bearing arms?

    To be honest if assholes were met with it on all sides more often then perhaps they'd have to begin to think about their behaviour rather than thinking who'll I turn to next?
    It is a luxury to be understood - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  3. #723

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm glad you brought this up. My dear friend Z Buck and I were actually talking about this very thing. And I want you to know that WE were talking about it BEFORE you mentioned it...haha...I'm totally kidding. I mean, I'm not...but it doesn't matter does it now and I'm just being weird haha.

    Z Buck is eloquent...while my vocabulary leaves something to be desired (oh no @Eilonwy)...and I'm never really capable of saying what I want to say...but I did start to suspect that some of the reaction we are seeing in this thread from ENPs...comes from a place of total panic. You see...we are not capable of moving forward when there are loose-ends. I mean...it just really isn't in us to do so. And so if the loose-end isn't addressed in a way that makes us feel comfortable moving forward...the only thing we can do is to completely close ourselves off emotionally (shit mentally, spiritually as well) to the other individual and pretend 'it' never happened. And when it comes to people we care about...well this is where the panic comes from. It is almost like...'you don't know what you are asking me to do'. You are asking me to completely erase you from my existance and I am reluctant to do that. It is weird to me to consider WE are the real doorslammers in the bunch.
    I am not a door slammer. My situation is very unique and extreme. Panic is very rare for me. My situation involves life changing money and a house. The devastation caused by my infj has been very extreme. I don't think many if any people here would go back to that after the fact. And, I even still would help my infj get help, after I get my situation resolved. I don't think everyone or even many would do that.

    Too late in my situation means urgent situations weren't addressed. Too late means I can no longer trust this person with. certain things in certain ways. I can help from a distance, non-financially. And over time as trust is proven, My guard would go down more. But I would never again most likely get into any type of financial situation with this person again, no.

    If there were zero loose ends, that would be a lot different. If we just mutually drifted apart, or if she just vanished one day and didn't return, she could possibly, only possibly re-enter my life again later. At what level, distant friend at first and then as trust builds over time perhaps something different or more. It would depend on the situation.

    No, I don't door slam anyone and i would encourage anyone else against doing so as well.

  4. #724

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm glad you brought this up. My dear friend Z Buck and I were actually talking about this very thing. And I want you to know that WE were talking about it BEFORE you mentioned it...haha...I'm totally kidding. I mean, I'm not...but it doesn't matter does it now and I'm just being weird haha.

    Z Buck is eloquent...while my vocabulary leaves something to be desired (oh no @Eilonwy)...and I'm never really capable of saying what I want to say...but I did start to suspect that some of the reaction we are seeing in this thread from ENPs...comes from a place of total panic. You see...we are not capable of moving forward when there are loose-ends. I mean...it just really isn't in us to do so. And so if the loose-end isn't addressed in a way that makes us feel comfortable moving forward...the only thing we can do is to completely close ourselves off emotionally (shit mentally, spiritually as well) to the other individual and pretend 'it' never happened. And when it comes to people we care about...well this is where the panic comes from. It is almost like...'you don't know what you are asking me to do'. You are asking me to completely erase you from my existance and I am reluctant to do that. It is weird to me to consider WE are the real doorslammers in the bunch.
    This resonated on several points. IME, because feelings are not my primary decision making force, I find there is this additional layer of vulnerability to having that part of myself exposed. So after having done so, which requires heavy consideration, the potential for having it being one-sidedly dismissed causes a great distress.

    This in turn creates a feedback loop caused by the self-protection response of detachment which can collide with the deposited trust that required great commitment. As a result, there will be a lot of inner conflict from the nature of the duality of both factors, one screaming for self-preservation and the other for all the energy and trust that was invested, which can manifest in all the least pleasant and chaotic ways.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #725
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    I am not a door slammer. My situation is very unique and extreme. Panic is very rare for me. My situation involves life changing money and a house. The devastation caused by my infj has been very extreme. I don't think many if any people here would go back to that after the fact. And, I even still would help my infj get help, after I get my situation resolved. I don't think everyone or even many would do that.

    Too late in my situation means urgent situations weren't addressed. Too late means I can no longer trust this person with. certain things in certain ways. I can help from a distance, non-financially. And over time as trust is proven, My guard would go down more. But I would never again most likely get into any type of financial situation with this person again, no.

    If there were zero loose ends, that would be a lot different. If we just mutually drifted apart, or if she just vanished one day and didn't return, she could possibly, only possibly re-enter my life again later. At what level, distant friend at first and then as trust builds over time perhaps something different or more. It would depend on the situation.

    No, I don't door slam anyone and i would encourage anyone else against doing so as well.
    I actually wasn't addressing your specific situation directly (although I am very sorry for what you have endured). My statements were addressing ENPs in general...and why the doorslam *might* be even more traumatic for them. Had it been something I came-up with on my own...I may have dismissed it. But having bounced a few thoughts off of Z Buck (which she completely expanded on - I didn't have anything to do with the expansion...she did that all herself)...and in the knowing that the gal is fricken brilliant...I feel confident that we are onto something that might be valueable to others. With all due respect...I'm not sure you are quite at this point in your situation. And I really feel for you. Believe me...I really do.

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I don't know if "haven't heard" is actually the most accurate way to put it.

    It's just that you've urged INFJs to see the perspective of others, so much. And yet, when I try to describe how a "doorslam" is likely to have followed an awful lot of trying to see the perspective of the other person, and trying to share your own - and that the doorslam is in part because the other person refuses to see that in an equal relationship everyone's rights have to be taken under consideration - it's been repeatedly dismissed or described as special pleading. To the extent that I feel like I've been punching the air.

    I, and others, have described in detail how we've tried to fix relationships, or to do our part in fixing them - not without making our own mistakes, obviously - but how in some cases things have not proved fixable, partly because the other person repeatedly infringes on my rights, or overwhelms me even when given specific pointers on how NOT to overwhelm me, or disregards my feelings severely and repeatedly, or demonstrates that their approach to the relationship (whatever its nature) is utterly incompatible with my own - etc.

    And it seems like, according to you, none of that is valid when coming from "INFJs" and it just proves that we've got blind spots far more hideous than those of any other type. Because the only thing that IS valid is bending over backwards and breaking yourself in half to try and accommodate the other person's perspective - even if they are doing nothing of the kind for you. And all too often in this thread the only thing that gets "heard" is what confirms your current bad view of "INFJs" and "INFJ doorslams" (all of which, apparently, fall under one and the same umbrella.)
    for me the emphasize is on try, and let me explain why:

    if you've actually read my more personal posts opening up, as was my first and as was the later ones with intriciate mystic, what do you see? they are full of questions, they are full of possible explenations to what she might be expirencing. i will never have to claim that i have tried to understand her point of view, nor that i am aware of my incapacity to understand it fully and am thus open to any new information from her about it, because i have actually demonstrated it.

    but if i have simply claimed to have tried to see her point of view, all it would be saying is that i don't want to view myself as someone who wouldn't consider someone else's point of view.

    if INFJs would have came forth and demonstrated - actually described what they thought of the other person's PoV and expeirence regarding their own actions and mistakes while keeping in touch with the nutural human limits in actually understanding another's PoV fully - it would garner my respect. but so far all i've seen was "the other person was toxic", "the other person had insecurities", "the other person wasn't open to my Pov", etc. all different alterations of "it's all their fault!", which to me is actually demonstrating an unwillingness to see the other person's perspective, as does the doorslam by its very nature.

    this is further ilustrated in the general theme of those few "mistakes" and "faults" most - again with intriciate mystic being the exception - INFJs here seem to actually admit too: see for any person capable of introspection, you develop an understanding that some of your actions can wrong others by seen it from their perspective, and you learn that some of your actions and behaviors towards other people can be wrong. but in "its everyone else's fault" world, your only mistake is in letting people in, so it all becomes about the boundaries you set for others. a few INFJs here have claimed to have made mistakes and acknowledged them, but - and again @Intricate Mystic seems to be the local exception - none have actually demonstrated acknowledging their own mistakes, it's all high in the air and in the spirit of "ofcourse i'm not the kind of person who can't acknowledge their own mistakes" - sure, but where are they, how am i to believe those claims when the very nature of your actions (doorslamming) demonstrate nothing but an "it's all their fault" spirit without you actually demonstrating otherwise?

    the funny thing is, my bias is towards you rather then against you - there is absolutely nothing that would make me feel better then thinking that this is a lapse in judgement, that my exwife is open to understanding my point of view, that her being an INFJ doesn't say otherwise, that she's just too hurt right now but it will all pass away. so for god's sake, please, please please please, demonstrate that my theory is wrong.

  7. #727

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I actually wasn't addressing your specific situation directly (although I am very sorry for what you have endured). My statements were addressing ENPs in general...and why the doorslam *might* be even more traumatic for them. Had it been something I came-up with on my own...I may have dismissed it. But having bounced a few thoughts off of Z Buck (which she completely expanded on - I didn't have anything to do with the expansion...she did that all herself)...and in the knowing that the gal is fricken brilliant...I feel confident that we are onto something that might be valueable to others. With all due respect...I'm not sure you are quite at this point in your situation. And I really feel for you. Believe me...I really do.
    It depends on the situation. I would think a door slam would be equally traumatic for the Enp and infj much of the time.

    I have no doubt that is alao the case in my situation too.

    If my situation were not so extreme, it would still be very traumatic for me. I would still have had a little bit of panic with the shock. I still would have tried hard to communicate and sit down and see what was going on etc...but a few weeks or even months of that and no response would lead me to go my own way. i wouldn't erase the person from memory. I don't think infj's do so either. I am sure they move on with their life but the memories still exist in the back of one's mind.

    A lot of door slamming is about communication, basic communication. Sometimes an infj is not being heard. Sometimes they are not doing enough to speak up or communicate. Sometimes they make assumptions or errors of fact. It varies.

    In my case, different and extreme, I learned the vision was more important than reality to my infj. That was a tough and surprising lesson for me. i know it is just my case too. I also learned that small miscommunication can lead to major major problems with my infj. I don't really understand why she cannot sit down in person with me alone or with me and others of her choosing, and talk back and forth to find win win solutions. In order to that she has to think of others first, make compromise, re-visit mistakes and miscomunication, find her old values, be hobest, etc.. and that has not happened in 7 months and counting. Short conversation in person, is all i have been waiting for.

    I know this isn't all or most situations, but it is mine and it is very real. I can juggle different topics and situations, with my own very much being my every second of every day priority.

  8. #728
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    @Mane - I honestly do not get this. What is wrong with saying "try"? All anyone can do is try. YOu said yourself that you're never going to fully understand someone else's POV. So what other option is there but to try?

    In my successful interpersonal relationships - which is most of them - there is clear evidence that both parties appreciate, acknowledge and try to understand each other's POV. This has been lacking in the unsuccessful ones. I've sometimes been too clouded in my feelings toward the other party to really understand where they are coming from. Often, mixed messages have clouded the waters too. I haven't been able to understand what they wanted from me. Also often, they've shown interest in me and my perspective but it turns out to be more like curiosity. I have tried to be direct with them about my sensitivities and what I can and can't handle in interpersonal relationships and they haven't understood that. Ultimately they turned out to be more interested in their own agenda and their preconceptions about me. Perhaps I was partly guilty of that too. But there was certainly a fundamental incompatibility.

    I guess you feel that every relationship can be fixed. I don't think that's always the case. I do agree that if it's a marriage people should try very very hard. I don't believe that there are many reasons for dissolving a marriage. Emotional abuse and infidelity would be two of the few. From what you've described your INFJ sounds extremely insecure and emotionally unstable. There were financial problems. There seem to have been power struggles. These all loom large in any marriage.

    I asked if there was any chance your INFJ didn't feel heard by you and you didn't answer that. I'm not saying that is what happened but it seems possible. I think it is a valid question.
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  9. #729
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Just am catching up on this thread now...

    @BalanceFind

    I don't find it odd that I ended up with an ESTJ. I think a lot of INFJs are very drawn to extroverted Te users as they have strengths in areas where we do not. They often appear confident, are leadery types, do well professionally, can express themselves fairly concisely right in the moment and seem certain of themselves. Unfortunately, I've noticed that over time, those very differences often become sources of difficulty in understanding and communicating with each other well. I think as I've gotten older I've realized that it works better to shore up my weaknesses, rather than looking for someone who is opposite from me.

    ESTJs often are portrayed as uptight, unwilling to consider other points of view, and very conservative. In fact, I've found that ESTJs often are funny, enjoy travelling, are very adventurous in food and music, are hospitable, and are good at drawing other people in to try those things as well. While they may prefer to be in sync with the norms of the social group around them, that could include almost any type of social group. That does not always mean conservative. In my case, I found that my ESTJ helped me to be more adventurous (I'm a creature of habit and hesitant about trying something when I don't know what to expect), was fun to be around socially, was very intelligent and resourceful, complemented my big picture views with practical details that I didn't naturally think of, and made me see the advantages of approaching people first rather than waiting for them to come to me.

    I think he was one of the first people that made me consider S types in a different light. I think before I had a tendancy to seem them as a lite version of their N counterpart, which sounds awful and I realize now was really inaccurate as well. My dad is an ISTJ, and my mum is an ENFJ, so I'm not sure if it was partially that the dynamic was familiar too on some level...

    While I do agree with you that ENTJs and ESTJs are different, they do share extroversion and Te. You would be surprised at the number of INFJs on here who have exes of either type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    @Mane - I honestly do not get this. What is wrong with saying "try"? All anyone can do is try. YOu said yourself that you're never going to fully understand someone else's POV. So what other option is there but to try?
    not "tried to understand their point of view", but tried to tell me that they "have done their best to understand the other's point of view" - al i'm seen is claims, i don't see any demonstrations.

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