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  1. #61
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    Your message just now makes me want to help the INFJ because you're being too harsh on them. Sound a lot like talking down on them and then faking. So scratch what I just said about you not sounding like ENFP. I'm not surprised if INTP also door slams you.

  2. #62
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirits View Post
    Your message just now makes me want to help the INFJ because you're being too harsh on them. Sound a lot like talking down on them and then faking. So scratch what I just said about you not sounding like ENFP. I'm not surprised if INTP also door slams you.
    Why do you characterize my post as harsh? Is it harsh to say that doorslamming has to do with the INFJ setting clear personal boundaries? This seems like a statement of fact more than an evaluation of whether or not the INFJ at hand is a good or bad person.

    You said that I now do "sound like an ENFP." Implicit in your comment is that ENFPs are harsh. This does not ring true to my experience as ENFP or as a student of human nature. While immature, emotionally unhealthy ENFPs can display all the foibles endemic to humanity, most ENFPs are (if anything) not harsh enough on the people who inappropriately cross our personal boundaries.

    My goal here is to understand better why the INFJ doorslams so that I can be a better friend to the INFJs in my life and to protect myself from future hurt. I have forgiven the two INFJs who have doorslammed me... one because she asked me to. The other because, even though he completely over-reacted, I was bringing up some emotionally tense stuff for him that set the stage for his overreaction. And, when the INFJs I've known have doorslammed other people, I've tried to reserve my judgment and be supportive of them.

    There is a difference between making judgments and being judgmental. (It's taken me almost four decades to finally get this.) I say once again to those who may think me harsh: while I do think my pain and hurt over being doorslammed comes through in my posts, I hope it also comes through that I am genuinely fond of my INFJ friends. They are very dear to me.

    INFJs, in general, are some of the coolest, most ethically well-developed people I know. An INTP I would expect to doorslam and not know of, nor care about the negative fallout of such a unilateral action. More interesting to me is that the otherwise thoughtful and considerate INFJ will sometimes doorslam not just when there has been a legitimate offense, but also when there has been a very slight infraction or no infraction at all. Not all INFJs do this, but I've seen it enough times to know that this is an issue that some INFJs struggle with.

  3. #63
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Why do you characterize my post as harsh?
    In all of your posts to this thread, at no point is it evident that you have considered the feelings of anyone but yourself. It's not apparent that you have any empathy for the INFJs you've mentioned, or for the people who have opened themselves up to you in this thread.

    You made several very condescending posts and offered judgmental, unsolicited advice to people who were trying to help you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    This is understandable to a point, but this is often overused by INFJs who need to work on coming up with other behaviors to deal with these feelings ... Maybe you ought to come up with a Plan B when you're feeling overwhelmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench
    I think of my dog who sometimes gets so overwhelmed with his happiness to see me that he sometimes runs under the bed and chews on a bone when I come home. He's happy to see me. I haven't done anything wrong, but at the same time the dog can't handle the intensity of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench
    I'll have to say that I find this pretty darn cowardly and immature ... part of being an adult is doing what needs to be done even if it requires working through some unpleasant feelings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench
    I've seen pretty much every single INFJ I know (whether emotionally healthy or not) commit this sin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench
    I hope this helps INFJs (and their ENFJ cousins) better understand how your doorslamming activities affect the other person and might not be the best way to handle the matter at hand.
    So let's see... you lectured INFJs on how they ought to deal with their feelings, compared them to overexcited dogs, talked down about what it means to be an adult, accused them all of sinning, and then wrapped up your lecture with "I hope this helps INFJs better understand..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I say with kindness that this sounds pretty darn selfish and immature to me. From your picture you look pretty young. Maybe early 20s? ... with more life experience, you might come to appreciate that IT'S NOT ALWAYS ALL ABOUT YOU ... Have you considered that you might actually be wrong some of the time...
    This is probably the most condescending passage I have read in any online forum, ever.

    This is how you react to people who went out of their way to be nice to you, to answer your question? By lecturing, insulting, and talking down to them? Your behavior is degrading, and you seem totally unaware of it. Yeah, I can't imagine why anyone would decide you're not a healthy presence in their lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Why do you characterize my post as harsh?
    Probably for the same reason you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I just reread my post and I wanted to say that I'm not trying to be overly harsh to INFJs.

  4. #64
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    You say that doorslamming is something that INFJs struggle with, but nearly every INFJ who has posted in this thread has said that they believe any doorslamming they have done was necessary for their well-being. Just because something an INFJ does in order to protect themselves inconveniences you or causes you discomfort does not mean that it is a sin or even unhealthy. Unhealthy would be to ignore their own well-being.

    You say you want to understand INFJs better, but what you fail to do is actually listen to and accept as valid, what INFJs are actually saying. This is obnoxious, presumptuous behavior.

    You tell us "It's not about you." You're making it pretty clear who you believe it is actually about.

    Nobody is required to be my friend. If they don't find their interactions with me to be healthy or beneficial, they need to look after their well-being and move on. I may miss them and it may hurt, but it is their prerogative to choose with whom they interact -- not mine.

    If they wake up one day and decide that they just don't like me anymore or that my nose looks funny or they don't have time -- it's their decision. They don't owe me an explanation or an apology -- they don't owe me anything. It's their life. It's their time. It's their choice and I accept it.

    What right do I have to tell a grown adult who they are going to be friends with? Why would I want someone to be friends with me when they don't believe doing so is in their best interest? How selfish would I have to be to demand such a thing? And why would I deny myself the freedom and respect I would give to anybody else?

    When it comes to another person's choices it's not about me and it shouldn't be. It is and should be about them and what works for their life, not what makes me feel better. When it comes to my choices it is very much about me and what works for my life. If I could avoid hurting someone else in the process, it would be a perfect world. Unfortunately, things just don't work out that way sometimes.
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    ~ John Rogers

  5. #65
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I absolutely agree with Cafe's post above. I'm not sure if I can add much to this thread.
    I have doorslammed people who blatantly betrayed my trust, when I know they knew better. I share something with them and they choose not to value it even when they know what it means to me. I don't expect them to have the same feelings as me, but I do expect them to consider my feelings, as I have extensively considered theirs throughout the relationship. Having consideration is so important to me. If they don't have it is just not going to work out. Marriages end in divorced all the time because trust is betrayed over sex. I'm not saying it should in all cases. But most everyone respects the person in the marriage as free to end the relationship if they choose to.

    If someone reading really wants to know how to reach an INFJ who is pulling away - then reach out. Let that person know that you care enough about them to fight for them. Let them know that you notice them. Take their sensitivities into consideration. Don't invalidate. And if its not worth it to you, or they express a dire need to retreat then let them go to take care of themselves. It is understood that INFJs don't need a boatload of friends, and it may seem they have this to power to dump you because they care less, but I know from my experience its all about just how very deeply I cared before the doorslam. It isn't easy for me, and others may never understand. All the types have such things to cope with.
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  6. #66
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I absolutely agree with Cafe's post above. I'm not sure if I can add much to this thread.
    I have doorslammed people who blatantly betrayed my trust, when I know they knew better. I share something with them and they choose not to value it even when they know what it means to me. I don't expect them to have the same feelings as me, but I do expect them to consider my feelings, as I have extensively considered theirs throughout the relationship. Having consideration is so important to me. If they don't have it is just not going to work out. Marriages end in divorced all the time because trust is betrayed over sex. I'm not saying it should in all cases. But most everyone respects the person in the marriage as free to end the relationship if they choose to.

    If someone reading really wants to know how to reach an INFJ who is pulling away - then reach out. Let that person know that you care enough about them to fight for them. Let them know that you notice them. Take their sensitivities into consideration. Don't invalidate. And if its not worth it to you, or they express a dire need to retreat then let them go to take care of themselves. It is understood that INFJs don't need a boatload of friends, and it may seem they have this to power to dump you because they care less, but I know from my experience its all about just how very deeply I cared before the doorslam. It isn't easy for me, and others may never understand. All the types have such things to cope with.
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  7. #67
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You say that doorslamming is something that INFJs struggle with, but nearly every INFJ who has posted in this thread has said that they believe any doorslamming they have done was necessary for their well-being. Just because something an INFJ does in order to protect themselves inconveniences you or causes you discomfort does not mean that it is a sin or even unhealthy. Unhealthy would be to ignore their own well-being.
    I'm going to have to question your logic here which seems rather circuitous to me. You're saying that because INFJs engage in doorslamming, because they feel it necessary, because they feel it is required for their well-being, that the case is closed. INFJs should engage in doorslamming with a clean conscience.

    Horse hockey. The only thing this tells me is that INFJs feel doorslamming is sometimes necessary and that they feel it is sometimes required for their well-being. (BTW, not every INFJ on this thread gives the thumbs up to doorslamming. For example, I've received over 10 private messages from INFJs who wanted to tell me how much they disliked this common INFJ response to unpleasantness.)

    The real question here is "Is it most expedient to let our emotions dictate our behavior?" Both ENFPs and INFJs are likely to let their emotions heavily influence their behavior, but is this wise?

    Let me answer this question by quoting INFJ-extraordinaire Vicki Jo Varner:

    My [INFJ] personality type is my comfort zone. Since type is about habitual patterns, we can also say that type is about comfort zones. How these "comfort zones" are uniquely expressed demonstrates how each of us is a distinct individual. But these comfort zones and expressions are communicated via the type pattern. Which means anytime we are experiencing a knee-jerk reaction, or doing "business as usual," we are in the domain of type. And sometimes it takes a whole lotta pain to change our patterns and open up to the possibility that one-sidedness is not the answer.

    In that light, the ability to be tolerant and not to allow one's buttons to be pushed is an excellent measuring stick for one's personal growth and development. It's a signal that many life coaches use as a crucible to help their clients evolve. We don't have to call it "type," but the type pattern is present whether we acknowledge it or not.

    I invite you to look at your own comfort zones -- to notice your habitual ways of being in the world -- and consider trying on a new behavior today. Consider looking at the thing you deplore, and strive to identify that thing in yourself. Maybe find a way to be with it, perhaps even to love it a little. You'll be a little bit better for it -- a little less neurotic. A contribution one can make to the world is not to add to the general prevailing unconsciousness.
    So let me gently encourage you, Cafe, and the other INFJs who have expressed their dismay at me calling all INFJs out on doorslamming, to consider a new behavior today. Perhaps you can consider that while doorslamming may feel right to you, that this only feels like the right thing to do, because you are allowing your INFJ buttons to be pushed.

    I think of the words carved into the Temple of Apollo at the Oracle at Delphi: ???? ??????? (gnothi seauton = "know thyself") and ???? ??? (meden agan = "nothing in excess"). Truth and self-actualization lie in the middle path, without excess.

    Nowhere are these truths more applicable than finding balance in our inherent tendency to choose one cognitive process over another, in this case choosing being decisive and purposeful over being flexible and spontaneous. Our preferred cognitive preferences box us into a way of seeing the world that we are often unaware. Balance comes using the most appropriate cognitive process based on the needs of the situation, not just with what we are more comfortable.

    I do not doubt that doorslamming is most comfortable for many INFJs. But your implicit assumption is that just because something is more comfortable means that it's the best course of action is... well like I said already... horse hockey.

    Let me remind all INFJs and any others who read this post that one-sidedness is not the answer! This is a lesson this ENFP has had to learn herself the hard way.

  8. #68
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I'm going to have to question your logic here which seems rather circuitous to me. You're saying that because INFJs engage in doorslamming, because they feel it necessary, because they feel it is required for their well-being, that the case is closed. INFJs should engage in doorslamming with a clean conscience.

    Horse hockey. The only thing this tells me is that INFJs feel doorslamming is sometimes necessary and that they feel it is sometimes required for their well-being. (BTW, not every INFJ on this thread gives the thumbs up to doorslamming. For example, I've received over 10 private messages from INFJs who wanted to tell me how much they disliked this common INFJ response to unpleasantness.)

    The real question here is "Is it most expedient to let our emotions dictate our behavior?" Both ENFPs and INFJs are likely to let their emotions heavily influence their behavior, but is this wise?

    Let me answer this question by quoting INFJ-extraordinaire Vicki Jo Varner:



    So let me gently encourage you, Cafe, and the other INFJs who have expressed their dismay at me calling all INFJs out on doorslamming, to consider a new behavior today. Perhaps you can consider that while doorslamming may feel right to you, that this only feels like the right thing to do, because you are allowing your INFJ buttons to be pushed.

    I think of the words carved into the Temple of Apollo at the Oracle at Delphi: ???? ??????? (gnothi seauton = "know thyself") and ???? ??? (meden agan = "nothing in excess"). Truth and self-actualization lie in the middle path, without excess.

    Nowhere are these truths more applicable than finding balance in our inherent tendency to choose one cognitive process over another, in this case choosing being decisive and purposeful over being flexible and spontaneous. Our preferred cognitive preferences box us into a way of seeing the world that we are often unaware. Balance comes using the most appropriate cognitive process based on the needs of the situation, not just with what we are more comfortable.

    I do not doubt that doorslamming is most comfortable for many INFJs. But your implicit assumption is that just because something is more comfortable means that it's the best course of action is... well like I said already... horse hockey.

    Let me remind all INFJs and any others who read this post that one-sidedness is not the answer! This is a lesson this ENFP has had to learn herself the hard way.
    I don't think doorslamming is a good thing. It is a last resort. It usually happens because either the INFJ did not address imbalances, etc when they might have been manageable or they have been deluding themselves about the character of the person with whom they are dealing. Obviously it would be best to address problems earlier instead of letting things get completely out of balance and that it is a skill to develop. INFJs can have a tendency to allow people to cross their boundaries and to take too much without saying something and that is not healthy.

    OTOH, a person that will keep violating another person's boundaries in a way that could trigger a doorslam is probably not the healthiest person in the world, either. I mean, if I leave my door unlocked, it is careless of me, etc but just because I left my door unlocked doesn't mean it's okay for you to come into my house and steal all my portable electronics. The fact that I didn't say, "Hey, my door is unlocked and if you ever need to use my phone or borrow some sugar, feel free to help yourself, but please don't take my computer or my iPod" does not mean it's okay to walk off with our iPod. Generally we don't doorslam sugar borrowers. We doorslam iPod pilferers.

    Now obviously there can be unhealthy people of any type, but I don't think it's wrong to start locking your door when you realize your 'friend' is walking off with your electronics. I don't think it's crazy to feel like you don't want to be friends with that person anymore, either.

    But I really think you are looking at the wrong end of the problem. Once a reasonably healthy INFJ has gotten to the point of doorslam, things have gone WAY. TOO. FAR. They've had enough. They are done. If you want to say they shouldn't have let it get to that point, I'll agree, but often the reason it does get to that point is because the INFJ is internally invalidating their concerns and their feelings about the relationship.

    Further invalidating them by saying, "I know you are in the submarine and it is totally out of air and you are suffocating, but how dare you leave?? Why are you so selfish?? How can you do this to me??" -- All I can say to that is "WTF??? NO!"

    If you truly want to help INFJs change this behavior, listening and validation are the ways to go, not further invalidation and preachiness.

    You might ask how an INFJ can be made to feel safe enough in a friendship to address concerns they might have in a timely manner, for instance. Or maybe what some early warning signs that there could be problems. That would be constructive.

    You could encourage INFJs to listen to their own feelings about how the relationship is going and to speak up when something bothers them. Maybe offer some suggestions on scripting for addressing particular issues. You could tell us that a good friendship is resilient and can take a little conflict.

    This insistence on staying in the oxygen-depleted submarine, OTOH, is not constructive. The real comfort zone issue is the issue of not speaking up in a timely manner because believe me, no INFJ is comfortable with doorslamming. It sucks for us too, but it will be a cold day in hell before we let other people dictate when we are allowed to use our escape hatch -- and that is as it should be. It's self-defense -- and I may feel guilty and have nightmares if I kill someone who is trying to kill me, but that doesn't mean I believe I should have let them kill me.
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  9. #69
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    I had a relationship with an INFJ

    Everything was great until I realised how much she was manipulating me.
    This is not to say I didn't/don't have my own problems that affected her.
    but after much turbulence I broke up with her which we BOTH agreed was the right thing to do at the time.
    But as I pulled away to heal she became more and more upset.
    Her whole perception of things began to radically change.
    My strengths became flaws, My love a trick, my understanding of her became my sudden ability to mind read and influence her.My generosity a means to control her, our similarities were me just mimicking her etc..

    She doorslamed me to not face herself, which I had become quite adept at confronting her with.

    She told to me talk to a specific INFJ if I wanted to understand what she was thinking and feeling.. However this particular INFJ did not at all understand her actions.. or to be more precise .. totally did

    Her words were

    "Well, it doesn't even matter what I've been told by you. You really haven't even said anything bad about her - you have just sent me to her posts to have me read them and see if I can understand her well enough to explain her to you."

    "I would try as hard as hell to get over her and run as far away as you can.
    Everything I read was just a bundle of projection. It was clear as day. She displays an extreme lack of empathy and selfishness.

    To me, it looks as if the guilt from subconsciously being a major part in the ruin of her relationship has caused her to publicly blame you in order to receive affirmation from others and feel better about herself. If she can make herself believe that she did nothing wrong, and if she can place all of the blame on you, then she can be free of any guilt. It does not look as if she consciously feels the guilt. I believe that she is doing this entirely subconsciously. So she can tell her side of the story, and only her side, to a room full of people who think they are better than everyone else simply because of an ability to "see" into people, and they will understand her from that perspective. She can receive the support she needs to push her guilt into the farthest depths of her subconscious where it will only cause her further turmoil and anguish. It is difficult to get rid of problems if one is not aware of them. But it is also difficult to be aware of one's problems and to deal with them. She has chosen the former, and the pattern will continue".


    So INFJs of the world.. what do make of this? what Kind of a doorslam is this.?
    Is this normal?

  10. #70
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    I am the suffering victim of an INFJ doorslam right now. My crime? Expressed that I was having some 'feelings'... prior to that, we were up to daily visits (we work together) and hundreds of emails.

    It hurts because I have been given no explanation. I'm an ENFP so I, of course, think it's my fault and feel terrible and would walk on water to fix it. I'm trying to give time and space and only address work related issues.

    But it sucks. Hurts.

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