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  1. #671
    ..... Intricate Mystic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    huh? i've said how i sabatoged the relationship:

    throughout it, the main problem was this:

    "she never believed me, i always told her how beautiful and brilliant she is, she always impressed me again and again like nobody has, and i told her each time how awesome it was... and she never believed me, always found a way to devalue it, always found a way to dismiss it... i could never make her feel good about herself... that's what accumilated, she listened to the bad stuff, not to grow but just to feel worst about herself, and yet never listened to the good stuff, to most of everything i felt about her and valued in her.. that's what broke us... so how can i now ask her to listen to a story that would make her feel worst about herself?"
    Self-esteem ultimately needs to come from within....she needed to decide for herself that she is beautiful and brilliant. As you discovered, hearing it from you didn't work. Any thoughts about why her self-esteem was so low? Could she have been depressed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Self-esteem ultimately needs to come from within....she needed to decide for herself that she is beautiful and brilliant. As you discovered, hearing it from you didn't work. Any thoughts about why her self-esteem was so low? Could she have been depressed?
    a lot of reasons - she told me them out loud and consciously - all are privately her's and not for me to share. and honestly i am starting to question whether i ever really knew her.i clearly saw a lot in her that wasn't there to began with, because the woman i fall for would have never being able to do this.

  3. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    a lot of reasons - she told me them out loud and consciously - all are privately her's and not for me to share. and honestly i am starting to question whether i ever really knew her.i clearly saw a lot in her that wasn't there to began with, because the woman i fall for would have never being able to do this.
    Your wish to protect her privacy is understandable. Perhaps you idealized her a bit and went beyond what was actually there? I have noticed that some ENTPs do that when they're first getting to know someone.

  4. #674

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Your wish to protect her privacy is understandable. Perhaps you idealized her a bit and went beyond what was actually there? I have noticed that some ENTPs do that when they're first getting to know someone.
    Yep.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  5. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    Your wish to protect her privacy is understandable. Perhaps you idealized her a bit and went beyond what was actually there? I have noticed that some ENTPs do that when they're first getting to know someone.
    it's not high and might ideals:
    i saw in her humility and compassion, but wouldn't those stop you from pretending to know and devaluing what your inflicting on others in contrast to all the infromation they give you just to justify your choices and inability to forgive the most understandable and human of emotional conditions? at least as a parent to a parent?
    i saw in her integrity and self reflection, but wouldn't those force you to reflect on your own actions before condemning others for doing the same as you? understand that if you have your reasons so can they? stop to see if you can measure to your own ideals before demanding them of others and falling deep into hypocracy?
    i saw in her a true will to understand, an intuitive sort of maturity that overcomes childish biases, but wouldn't those stop her from telling herself this black and white tale? that view of a villian and a victim? can't she see that if i took her perspective out of the equasion i could easily make her into the villian in so many of her actions, and yet its only in trying to reach an understanding towards what she was going through throughout every point - the best understanding that i can gain given the silence - that allows me to humanize her, that neither of us and no adult in particular are of any innocence if our actions are left hanging in the air without that understanding?

    i saw all of those because she demonstrated them, time and time again, to me and in front of me... but she isn't now. i could understand a lapse in judgement, but a lapse in judgement is how we make mistakes that we then acknowledge and do the best we can to fix, so why isn't she given all the oppertunities i provided her?
    i think she really does have a great capacity to be all of those, but as far as ingrained tendecy goes, what i saw was her expressions of her love to me and will to impress me, trying to be a better person for me, and possibly what i brought out of her... and i just assumed it is who she was. and now i'm not there, and evidently, none of those are moving their wheels.

    the reality is i never got to know her much before we got together - the chemistry was too good to be true and we weren't capable of being just friends before being lovers, so i never knew her as anyone other then that... until now. i think i might have a thing or two to learn from our typological cousins - the INTPs...

    right now i am moving on, but i'm not closing the door - if she ever wants to explain it to me she can. in the mean time i am going to follow PeaceBaby's advice - i have a canadian economical consultent who know this stuff very well and are trying to figure out with me to open an RESP acount for a canadian minor without me being a canadian citizen and without a canadian bank acount, and i have another guy who might help me figure out how to open a canadian bank acount without being canadian, and i have a canadian lawyer and a canadian social worker who both might be able to find out the existng RESP fund and how i can send it money if the other options dont pan out. i'll find the loopholes and find a way. i can't believe i just assumed you can only have one RESP acount per child... thanks again @PeaceBaby.

    i may not be able to be there for him and give him all i want him to have without changing how she feels, but i dont think anything i do or say is going to change how she feels, so i'm going to give him the one thing i can do without changing the way she feels.

  6. #676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it's not high and might ideals:
    i saw in her humility and compassion, but wouldn't those stop you from pretending to know and devaluing what your inflicting on others in contrast to all the infromation they give you just to justify your choices and inability to forgive the most understandable and human of emotional conditions? at least as a parent to a parent?
    i saw in her integrity and self reflection, but wouldn't those force you to reflect on your own actions before condemning others for doing the same as you? understand that if you have your reasons so can they? stop to see if you can measure to your own ideals before demanding them of others and falling deep into hypocracy?
    i saw in her a true will to understand, an intuitive sort of maturity that overcomes childish biases, but wouldn't those stop her from telling herself this black and white tale? that view of a villian and a victim? can't she see that if i took her perspective out of the equasion i could easily make her into the villian in so many of her actions, and yet its only in trying to reach an understanding towards what she was going through throughout every point - the best understanding that i can gain given the silence - that allows me to humanize her, that neither of us and no adult in particular are of any innocence if our actions are left hanging in the air without that understanding?
    INFJs (myself included) can be hypocrites without realizing it. It's kind of a blind spot. I think this happens in my case because I tend to look for the good in others and ignore the bad. This tends to bring out the best in other people, frequently. However, the down side is that when you're in the habit of ignoring/not seeing ugly character aspects of other people it predisposes to ignoring less than stellar aspects of one's own behavior. My now ex-husband tried to point out when I was being a hypocrite but I just couldn't or didn't want to see it. The only thing that got me to do so was getting involved with a male INFJ. He said you only really see this stuff as an INFJ if you get "INFJ'd" by another one. He was right! It required another INFJ "calling me on my stuff" to get me to think about how others view me. It's rather unpleasant stuff so it's not surprising to find that idealists might not want to dwell on any perceived flaws that others point out to them. In my case, I love thinking about and seeing all things beautiful and inspiring in life.....art and architecture, nature, spirituality...considering my imperfections is quite yucky and undesirable in comparison.

    i saw all of those because she demonstrated them, time and time again, to me and in front of me... but she isn't now. i could understand a lapse in judgement, but a lapse in judgement is how we make mistakes that we then acknowledge and do the best we can to fix, so why isn't she given all the oppertunities i provided her?
    i think she really does have a great capacity to be all of those, but as far as ingrained tendecy goes, what i saw was her expressions of her love to me and will to impress me, trying to be a better person for me, and possibly what i brought out of her... and i just assumed it is who she was. and now i'm not there, and evidently, none of those are moving their wheels.
    Well, most people aren't at their best when going through a break-up, you know? I wouldn't imagine that her best self is being brought out by the current situation. You are both probably highly stressed right now.

    the reality is i never got to know her much before we got together - the chemistry was too good to be true and we weren't capable of being just friends before being lovers, so i never knew her as anyone other then that... until now. i think i might have a thing or two to learn from our typological cousins - the INTPs...

    right now i am moving on, but i'm not closing the door - if she ever wants to explain it to me she can. in the mean time i am going to follow PeaceBaby's advice - i have a canadian economical consultent who know this stuff very well and are trying to figure out with me to open an RESP acount for a canadian minor without me being a canadian citizen and without a canadian bank acount, and i have another guy who might help me figure out how to open a canadian bank acount without being canadian, and i have a canadian lawyer and a canadian social worker who both might be able to find out the existng RESP fund and how i can send it money if the other options dont pan out. i'll find the loopholes and find a way. i can't believe i just assumed you can only have one RESP acount per child... thanks again @PeaceBaby.

    i may not be able to be there for him and give him all i want him to have without changing how she feels, but i dont think anything i do or say is going to change how she feels, so i'm going to give him the one thing i can do without changing the way she feels.
    I'm glad you're finding a way to do what you would like to for your step-son.

  7. #677
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    thanks, and your right that she's probably not at her best... gods know i'm not. like i said - the door is open to her to explain herself. to show me those qualities by acting on them.

    and question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    He said you only really see this stuff as an INFJ if you get "INFJ'd" by another one. He was right! It required another INFJ "calling me on my stuff" to get me to think about how others view me.
    why is it so critical that it would be another INFJ?

    also consider if it would be important if you didn't know you or the other where INFJs - at least for my case, as far as i know my exwife didn't consider the INFJness to be much of a tag for herself and neither did i as an ENTP, we didn't find out about our types until much later in the relationship and it was nothing but a nice reaffirming slap on the back, "yay the internetz says we match" sort of thing where it describes attributes we already knew about each other, and it never came up since, neither of us went to the MBTI communities... i only really got into this in the aftermatch to help me try to better understand wtf happened.

  8. #678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    thanks, and your right that she's probably not at her best... gods know i'm not.

    and question:

    why is it so critical that it would be another INFJ?

    also consider if it would be important if you didn't know you or the other where INFJs - at least for my case, as far as i know my exwife didn't consider the INFJness to be much of a tag for herself and neither did i as an ENTP, we didn't find out about our types until much later in the relationship and it was nothing but a nice reaffirming slap on the back, "yay the internetz says we match" sort of thing where it describes attributes we already knew about each other, and it never came up since, neither of us went to the MBTI communities... i only really got into this in the aftermatch to help me try to better understand wtf happened.
    I think it's critical because I can manipulate NTs (my ex was one). I can deflect their accusations/criticisms endlessly and skillfully and get away with it. Doing that to my ex was easy. The INFJ, in contrast, knew when I was doing that and wouldn't let me get away with it. I guess that made me respect him. This makes me sound devious, which I'm not. I think it's a combination of a tendency to avoid looking at negatives about others or myself plus having the skills to move the conversation away from discussing a topic (my imperfections) that's not pleasant to think about. I suppose theoretically a type other than INFJ might be able to get an INFJ to consider behaviors that are hypocritical but it would have to be done skillfully and with respect. Maybe it's kind of like trying to get an ENTJ to talk about feelings. Fi is a week undeveloped function for them and they tend to feel extremely vulnerable talking about feelings. Therefore, one has to approach this aspect of them with care and sensitivity. Likewise, perhaps considering one's flaws is a really sensitive and difficult area for INFJs.

  9. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intricate Mystic View Post
    The INFJ, in contrast, knew when I was doing that and wouldn't let me get away with it. I guess that made me respect him.
    how do you avoid/overcome the "so what i say doesn't have value because it's [rationalizing/redirecting/repressing/disassociating/etc]!" barrier?

  10. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    how do you avoid/overcome the "so what i say doesn't have value because it's [rationalizing/redirecting/repressing/disassociating/etc]!" barrier?
    I'm not sure. I definitely wouldn't do it by coming across as being critical. Maybe it would be best to express your concern in the form of an objective observation i.e. explain how a particular behavior of the INFJ seems inconsistent with their stated philosophies? You could then talk about how that affects you, in an honest, kind, loving, non-critical way. If you could help them visualize your preferred ideal scenario that might be helpful, too. Just pointing out someone's shortcomings just makes the person feel bad if you don't offer any solution. You will probably be highlighting a weak area that they feel bad about so that's why it's important to be gentle and kind while NOT allowing the INFJ to change the subject or squirm out of the discussion in some way. Also, don't get AMUSED when they attempt to do that, either! Be firm but kind and loving. -my 2 cents

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