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  1. #51
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Have you come to reform us?

  2. #52
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post

    I hope this helps INFJs (and their ENFJ cousins) better understand how your doorslamming activities affect the other person and might not be the best way to handle the matter at hand.
    Eh...I agree with Cafe here.

    To be honest your 4-point list doesn't provide anything helpful, because what I (and some others) was discussing doesn't really even fit in bullet points 2, 3, or 4. It may be that from your perspective, you see everything falling into those 'motivations' (which you are casting onto us), but believe me, they don't.

    This point of yours:

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric
    I don't think most INFJs who engage in #2 do this consciously. They feel like they have other reasons
    ...says quite a lot, and the rest of your post was of a similar tone. You're assigning motivations/reasons for the INFJ's behavior, some of which aren't even applicable to many of the scenarios that have been raised. I think all of us in this thread have been quite open and forthright on the topic, and how we relate, or don't relate, to the 'doorslamming' concept. It's a bit patronizing to be told we aren't really aware of the why's as to why we do things, or subconsciously it's for a different reason than what we're saying. I, at least, was quite 'real' in my answer and I consider myself a pretty self-aware individual, as to my inner motivations, root issues, etc.

    It would be the Ultimate cruelty/unfairness/weakness, in my opinion, to keep someone in my life even though it's not a relationship I want to prioritize or devote my time towards anymore, and even if I don't want them in my life, or don't think it's a healthy dynamic, simply to spare their feelings. And would the other person *really* want to be in the relationship themselves, if they knew the only reason I was still hanging out with them was because I didn't want to hurt their feelings by telling them I don't want to hang out with them anymore? I think ending a relationship when the relationship has waned or become toxic is mature and healthy - otherwise it would just be a one-sided thing.

    It's never easy for me, and totally stresses me out, as I hate hurting other people, but when it comes to the overall relationship, I want it to be working both ways, for both people, and if it's not, then I will end it despite the fact it will cause pain to the other and it can stress me out to do so. (and again, this is a very rare scenario in the first place)

    As always, I don't speak for all INFJ's. This is just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    It's not really harsh so much as invalidating. It's as if you are some kind of authority on what kind of action is appropriate/acceptable for a person to take, when you really aren't. If you've been door-slammed by multiple INFJs there may be a reason for it beyond their being immature and defective. People shared in this thread to help offer insight, not to be diagnosed, ya know? It's kind of like a trap.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  3. #53
    Member Goodewitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    First of all, as a bit of a lurker on this site, I've enjoyed many of your posts as being very thoughtful, Wedekit. Thank you for sharing your insights.

    I've tried to understand what you're saying in this post and I have to admit that I'm baffled. I'm not sure even where to begin:

    • You say "Whenever someone does something intentionally wrong to me it just makes more sense to cut them out of my life." But this seems like a self-defeating behavior because all people whose lives are closely packed together occasionally do something wrong to the other person. Sometimes they aren't aware of their dumbness. Sometimes, when they are not their best selves, they can be *sses. These are the good people, the bad people, and everyone else who falls in between including you and me. I would encourage you to be wary of such all or nothing statements. When you next screw up... or let the 8th grader in you come out... or are petty on a day you're hungover and grumpy, would you want your friends to do respond in this way to you?
    • You say, "I'm also guilty of not sharing with them why I choose not to associate myself with them anymore. If I don't want to let them back in then I don't see a reason to discuss with them why I am angry." I say with kindness that this sounds pretty darn selfish and immature to me. From your picture you look pretty young. Maybe early 20s? I hope I don't sound like a geriatric jerk by saying this, but with more life experience, you might come to appreciate that IT'S NOT ALWAYS ALL ABOUT YOU. There's another person involved here. Maybe you don't think YOU have a reason to share your reasoning with them. But that's not the point. You can still protect your boundaries while acting with love and kindness toward the other person. Perhaps telling them the reason will give them an opportunity to grow. Perhaps telling them will lead to a discussion that will result in you realizing you completely misinterpreted the situation. (Have you considered that you might actually be wrong some of the time.) Thinking about the other person's needs (even if they have wronged you) is agape love. And cutting them out without giving them a reason is a unilateral solution that only seems to make sense (by the reasoning that you stated) if you never make a mistake, jump the gun, misinterpret their comments, etc. This doesn't seem like a very solid plan to me.
    • You say, "...after... my ex broke up with me... He told me he didn't see himself in a relationship when he went to college in the fall. I told him that made sense, and we agreed to try and be friends. Two days later Facebook informed me he was dating someone else. I unadded him and haven't spoken to him since. He sent me a message asking why we weren't friends anymore... I didn't reply." I've gotta tell you that I hear lack of life experience and lack of humility. I don't have to have ever met you to know that you have screwed up royally sometimes. You have said one thing and done another. You have acted without grace and inconsistently when under pressure. I can tell you these things because all people are guilty of these kinds of sins. Maybe your ex is a jerk. Whatever his sins, is he not also is a sometimes muddled person filled with unresolved paradoxes like we all are? Don't you think you owe him the respect of telling him why you would take such a unilateral action? I would gently encourage you to re-examine your reasoning. Once again, I remind you that it's not all about you....


    We all impact other people's lives whether we want to or not. So perhaps you might want to do a rethink because it sounds like the feelings of the other person (again even if they've wronged you, their feelings are relevant) are not a big part... or in fact any part... of your equation.

    Humbly and respectfully,

    Esoteric Wench
    WOW!!! Jebus H Christy doodle doo!! What the flip did Wedekit do to deserve that?
    Oh no, please tell me I've never been this 'helpful' to anyone.
    I swear to God, I'm sorry for all those SP's and NT's I've well meaningly 'helped' along the way, please dont punish us INFJ's like this.
    I promise I'll never NiFe anyone again as long as I live if this is what its like to be on the other end of a righteous homily!
    Esoteric, I really dont want to be harsh on you, we're all here trying to figure this stuff out,.. but just remember one thing.
    INFJ's didnt ask to be put on some sort of pedestal and have expectations of saintly behaviour where we can do no wrong to others foisted upon us.
    I know we can seem preachy, arrogant and even mean in our door slamming and other ways of dealing with people,. but its a way we have all explained to you, its what we do, I for one never claimed perfection, and I dont see anyone else trying to say they want direction on improvement in this thread. You asked, we answered.
    I WILL continue to slam as many doors as I like Goddammit,.. and I will live with my conscience and decisions. In fact, I sleep ok at night.
    I promise to get someone to smack me up the side of the head with a rolled up newspaper, if I ever Fe them in this particular way.
    Forgive me SP's.. for I knew not what I did.
    My INFJ license is regulary revoked,.. I am a sometime refugee in the INTJ holding centre.

  4. #54
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's not really harsh so much as invalidating. It's as if you are some kind of authority on what kind of action is appropriate/acceptable for a person to take, when you really aren't. If you've been door-slammed by multiple INFJs there may be a reason for it beyond their being immature and defective. People shared in this thread to help offer insight, not to be diagnosed, ya know? It's kind of like a trap.
    I've been doorslammed three times by two INFJs. Without going into the four hour version of the story, let me just say that one was being a big weenie. The other was going through a lot of personal crap. And, she has always apologized and re-opened the door. So I agree with your reasoning that if someone were repeatedly door slammed by INFJs, then this begs the question of is it the INFJs or the person having door slammed on them? That's not the case here.

    But I've seen several INFJs slam doors on other people. Sometimes permanently. Sometimes not. I am not holding myself up as any expert accept as an observer of human nature with several INFJ friends. I leave it up to members of this forum to judge if the observations I share have value or not.

    I see your point about feeling like I was being invalidating. That was not my intent. I can validate that many INFJs choose to engage in doorslamming for reasons they feel are valid while at the same time sharing my observation that this is oftentimes a behavior that is received by the person being door slammed as hurtful... And that doorslamming can cause a host of problems for the INFJ and the people who care about them.

    Thank you for your feedback!
    Last edited by Esoteric Wench; 01-13-2010 at 05:42 AM.

  5. #55
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I've been doorslammed three times by two INFJs. I would evaluate one of these as one of the most unhealthy INFJs I've ever met. The other is going through a lot of personal crap. And, she has always apologized and re-opened the door. So I agree with your reasoning that if someone were repeatedly door slammed by INFJs, then this begs the question of is it the INFJs or the person having door slammed on them? That's not the case here.

    But I've seen several INFJs slam doors on other people. Sometimes permanently. Sometimes not. I am not holding myself up as any expert accept as an observer of human nature with several INFJ friends. I leave it up to members of this forum to judge if the observations I share have value or not.

    I see your point about feeling like I was being invalidating. That was not my intent. I can validate that many INFJs choose to engage in doorslamming for reasons they feel are valid while at the same time sharing my observation that this is oftentimes a behavior that is received by the person being door slammed as hurtful... And that doorslamming can cause a host of problems for the INFJ and the people who care about them.
    How is it validating to tell people they are being immoral for making a decision to remove themselves from a situation they believe is at best no longer beneficial and at worst harmful?
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    ~ John Rogers

  6. #56
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree that INFJs do sometimes slam doors for the wrong reasons EW. However, in your case, it makes me wonder (if these people aren't family), what is attractive to you about associating with so many unhealthy/unhappy INFJs. Bad emotional states bring out the worst in all personality types. These manifest themselves differently. In general though, we are only have two choices - do what we can to improve the situation (and take our chances) or change the situation. It's clear that these two INFJs are not ready to deal with what's going on, so the only choice you are left is leaving them to their own devices. It's disappointing, but you are not going to make sense of behaviour decided upon under those circumstances.

    In the meantime, it will frustrate other INFJs to be lumped in with that, especially if they just thought you were looking for more insight. INFJs tend to like to be helpful, but they are also reasonably sensitive to being rejected, particularly when they have explained their thought processes to you. It is important to frame what you have to say in such a way that a Fe user is going to be accepting of it rather than just coming straight out with it, when people don't have attachment or context for where you're coming from.

  7. #57
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    So far, my takeaway from this thread (and thanks for all the posts. It's really helped.) is that there are several scenarios in which an INFJ might doorslam someone.

    1. Temporary Doorslamming (aka hibernating). This comes from an INFJs need for space. Perhaps they feel a little invaded. This is understandable to a point, but this is often overused by INFJs who need to work on coming up with other behaviors to deal with these feelings. I think INFJs are blessed / burdened with cognitive processes that naturally conflict with each other (i.e., the desire to connect with others and the desire to reflect alone.) Temporary doorslamming seems to be a low hanging-fruit-kind-of-activity for INFJs who are feeling overwhelmed by their emotions. Maybe you ought to come up with a Plan B when you're feeling overwhelmed.
    2. Permanent doorslamming because the INFJ feels overwhelmed by the emotional intensity of the situation / friendship. Desire to bring down the intensity a few notches is understandable, but hardly reason to cut someone off. I don't think most INFJs who engage in #2 do this consciously. They feel like they have other reasons. But if the INFJ were to take a cold hard look at the facts, I think they might realize this is exactly what is going on.
      I think of my dog who sometimes gets so overwhelmed with his happiness to see me that he sometimes runs under the bed and chews on a bone when I come home. He's happy to see me. I haven't done anything wrong, but at the same time the dog can't handle the intensity of it. I have no doubt that many INFJs feel like this is an absolutely necessary step sometimes for self-protection. But even if you feel like you must do this, just like in #1, you do have other options you could choose to pursue.
      The INFJs desire to feel closure on such matters is not an excuse for behaving immorally. Cutting someone out of your life permanently just because you're a little overwhelmed by them, isn't fair to the other person unless you've given them several chances to tailor their approach. (And yeah, you perfectionist INFJs, it sometimes takes a few tries for your earnest and well-meaning friends to perfectly tailor their approach.) In other words, we're all a delicate mix of the cards we're dealt and the cards we choose to play. Play some different cards than the first hand you see.
    3. Cutting a friend out of one's life as a means of dodging a constructive confrontation that will be emotionally uncomfortable for the INFJ. I'll have to say that I find this pretty darn cowardly and immature. Only the most immature / out-of-balance INFJs I know engage in #3. (But I have seen it done.) As an ENFP, I know what it is to dread confrontation. But part of being an adult is doing what needs to be done even if it requires working through some unpleasant feelings. If I've screwed up, then the least my INFJ friends owe me is an explanation of my offense. I deserve a chance to set the record straight (if the INFJ has completely misinterpreted the situation); or correct my behavior (if I have indeed screwed up). Sometimes I'm just unaware of my transgression and need constructive feedback in order to make improvements. That's what constructive confrontations are all about. So in other words, suck it up, and confront your friend even though it might be unpleasant. (And this means BEFORE you've decided to cut them out. If you wait until after you've made this decision, then this is just venting on your part.)
    4. Distancing oneself from a person judged to be immoral or untrustworthy. This is certainly an excellent reason. But there is a catch here: INFJs can hold their loved ones to ridiculously high standards and then judge them harshly without remembering their friends are indeed fallible humans. Even good people screw up sometimes. And, screw up royally. Also, just because you think it's self-evident that they have violated whatever boundary you think has been violated, doesn't mean a) they have indeed truly violated that boundary and b) that the boundary you've set is reasonable to expect your friend to honor. I've seen pretty much every single INFJ I know (whether emotionally healthy or not) commit this sin. In other words, INFJ concludes the other person has behaved immorally. However, the INFJ needs to look outside themselvf and see if the facts really support that judgment. The INFJ needs to hold their judgment open long enough to process the entire situation through their intuition rather than taking such definitive action quickly.
    I hope this helps INFJs (and their ENFJ cousins) better understand how your doorslamming activities affect the other person and might not be the best way to handle the matter at hand.
    5. Shutting down friendship due to extreme frustration with direction friendship has been heading for a very long time, and although the infj has tried for months or years to accomodate changing friendship and try to adjust, no flexing occurs on the part of the other person, so the infj is always the one flexing, and finally something happens to break the camel's back.

    Recently suffered an extreme blow by my best friend over New Years plans. She bailed on us at the last minute and wasn't really sorry about it at all. I took it as extreme rejection, and combined with some of the other rejections I've sustained this year, it was just too much for me to bear. So my brain immediately shut down and shut her out. I told her on the phone about my perceived discrepency in our friendship, the frequency with which this happens with her, and the fact that I was irritated about getting bailed on at the last minute. I told her I understood that is just her nature (i really can't figure out her type). I also asked her not to call me and that I didn't know what I wanted to do with our friendship. We emailed a few times, but I felt like I had said my peace, so I felt basically okay with where I left it.

    I have always been more loyal and THERE for my friends than they have been able to be there for me, so it's never really been easy for me, this unreciprocated intention. I just don't usually get to the point where I want to slam that door. But I guess with several of my friendships changing flavor, and life taking us all in a bit of a different direction, it's like I am way more sensitive to that than they are; they barely seem to notice the change in fact.

    After about a week, one morning I was sitting by my fire and I noticed I missed my friend, so I texted her. She was working, but said maybe we could get together another day. Maybe so. I don't want to doorslam her as we've been friends for about 15 years! but I also have sustained some sort of fatal wound in our friendship where she is concerned, of which I don't fully understand. It's like I finally woke up out of some stupor and now she doesn't feel like she means quite as much to me. I know this sounds incredibly immature and fatalistic. The only idea of have to explain it, is it's like we've been going in different directions probably for a long time, and I just have been ignoring the signs probably. Now I snap back to reality and see just how much of a different plane we are each on, and I'm not sure there's a whole lot there to salvage or to keep her at the top of my list anymore. Why it has to be such a stark thing, and not just a subtle, "Okay, we'll just have lunch every month or so," thing, I really don't know.

    It's been almost 2 weeks now, and I do miss her conversation a little, but I don't miss her too much. I have been feeling alone in this friendship quite a lot in the past while, so it's not hard to envision life without her in it.

    I had a great afternoon with an infj neighbor today. Serious therapy session. She's older than me, and very wise. She encouraged me NOT to slam any doors. She thinks I'm just hurt and need to take some time for myself. I agree about the hurt, but I also am not sure that taking time will make much difference in this friendship or in another that feels like it's on its way out of my life. I did learn from her that I should probably understand that others are busy and they may not simply have the time for me that I have for them, and to be patient in that. Also that friendship is still friendship if you don't see that person very often. Sometimes I get caught up in feeling like someone doesn't care enough about our friendship if they don't make time for me (because quality time is one of my love languages), but perhaps a friendship is served good enough by just having lunch once a month, instead of getting together once a week.

    I think at this point, I need to revamp the way I do friendship. I give all of myself, but that's not really working, for me or for my friends. I'm not sure how these two friendships (another one is ironically coming to an end too) are going to fall out for me/us, but I feel like I need to change my perspective to understand friendship in some different way than I've currently done it.

    I'm really into growing and learning from difficulties. I struggle with my stuff just like the rest of us. If the doorslam is a sign of immaturity, so be it, I suppose. I think it's also about conserving energy and moving forward as well. If I shut down a stagnant friendship, it creates space for a new one. If it hurts others, that is sad, but it is probably a fraction of the hurt an infj can sustain from others over the years, especially those lacking in Fe.
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  8. #58
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Nuh-uh...I'm an ENFJ cousin and I have disassociated with people at a few points in time. Only once with someone I was good friends with at that moment...because of a whole bunch of reasons, but the easiest one to explain is that I caught her in a bunch of lies...so I basically told her I needed to distance myself from her...I was very honest and we still talk sometimes.

    I despise door-slamming without explanation. It has happened to me once and I was all WTF? I find that door-slammers expect you to read their minds, "You should have known I would be mad if..." Which is not reasonable. You can slam the door on me once. The second time, I will not be comming back in. I know it is hard to express negative feelings at times (I am the queen of licking my wounds when I am hurt, but I eventually know I have to talk about things becuase NO ONE CAN READ MY MIND). I always remind myself that I have to give people a chance to succeed and the opportunity to give me what I need. If I don't express what that is, then me not getting what I need from a person is no one's fault but my own.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I see your point about feeling like I was being invalidating. That was not my intent. I can validate that many INFJs choose to engage in doorslamming for reasons they feel are valid while at the same time sharing my observation that this is oftentimes a behavior that is received by the person being door slammed as hurtful... And that doorslamming can cause a host of problems for the INFJ and the people who care about them.

    Thank you for your feedback!
    You almost sound like you're not ENFP. ENFP usually annoys me, but your posts are accurate depiction of INFJ... course, with a bit of a hurt tone perhaps due to the few door slam you've dealt with. But overall I respect your inclination to discover the true nature without inhibition.

    Interesting observation I realize about INFJ is that they believe they're correct when often times they're not when they interpret my intention. I'm an INTP type 1. You seem to have also observed that INFJ needs more time to see the whole picture before judging. As an INTP, I never explain my intent, but INFJ have a tendency to look at people in the worse possible way and claim they're accurate. I sometimes wonder if making quick judgment is a way for them to not face the possible reality that they may be wrong. Door slamming could possibly mean they don't want to deal with their misinterpretation of a situation. They want to be right. How can they face themselves if they have to admit their mistake of being wrong? Sure, they apologize, but often at very menial mistakes.

  10. #60
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    First of all (in typical ENFP fashion) I want to apologize for being absent for a couple of weeks due to the necessity of wrapping up a project. But I'm back now and want to quickly respond to the wonderful posts on this thread.

    I started this thread in an earnest attempt to get insight and advice re: INFJ doorslamming. I admitted in my introductory post that this kind of behavior has caused me pain in the past. It's going to take some time to process the backlog of responses, but a couple of things immediately percolate to the surface:

    #1 - Several of you (both INFJ and other types) have speculated as to why I would continue to associate with / permit the presence of / not myself doorslam the INFJs who had shown a propensity to doorslam me or others. In other words, why haven't I cut these people out of my life?

    Response: This is a darn good question. I need to think about this a bit more, but my first thought is that my reluctance to do so is paradigmatic of the difference between ENFPs and INFJs. INFJs have such clear boundaries. ENFPs have loose boundaries and hate to cut off their options. It is our respective personality type's strength and weakness.

    #2 - Always keeping one's options open is one of the great strengths of ENFPs. I can change on a dime. I can capitalize on fluid and unplanned situations. But our strengths can quickly become our weaknesses. I hate to cut off my options. I hate to say goodbye forever. And, I reluctantly and begrudgingly admit that this has gotten me into mucho trouble in the past.

    I find that real emotional health comes from balance. In this case, balance for me means not relying too much on the cognitive preferences I'm hardwired to prefer (viz., P-ness), but rather the cognitive preference that is most appropriate to the situation. My challenge is to capitalize on my natural ability to see the possibilities in my relationships, while at the same time setting healthy boundaries.

    I'm still sorting through this, but I think my personal growth lies somewhere in me not taking so personally the INFJ's doorslamming. I'm coming to appreciate that when an INFJ doorslams me (or anyone else), it's not about the person being doorslammed, but rather it's about the INFJ setting clear boundaries.

    And just like me, the INFJ's strength (viz., clear personal boundaries) can quickly become a weakness. Nonetheless, even if the INFJ is in the wrong or acting "on autopilot" or even over-reacting, the point is that the doorslamming behavior is not about me. It's about the INFJ shoring up their defenses. In other words, I shouldn't take it so personally. But that doesn't mean that I have to take it at all.

    So once again, I want to thank everyone's responses. They really are helping me figure out a lot of stuff about myself. Keep 'em coming.

    More soon as I reflect on what was said here over the past several days.

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