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  1. #551
    violaine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    INFJs may have a bad tendency to withdraw and not share issues, but ENTPs can be like the semantic equivalent of Lenny from Of Mice And Men: killing puppies by ‘loving’ them. And I swear- sometimes these threads- it really sounds like ENTPs showing up and being all “Bad puppy, for dying! Bad puppy!
    LMAO.

    Sorry, to intrude into the serious tone of the thread - I just had to quote that because it is awesome. This was absolutely my experience with one ENTP. I couldn't keep up with how externally he lived his life! Dude, for about the 1000th time, my being quiet doesn't mean I hate you. O.o Lols.

  2. #552

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    Out of all NFs, I feel the most insecure when interacting with INFJs. I constantly fear that at any moment the INFJ I'm interacting with would door-slam me. Lolz...

    Marrying an INFJ would be a bad idea. It would be like walking on egg-shells for the rest of your life.
    I respectfully disagree. I used to possibly think that a little bit. But not anymore. I wouldn't tolerate the walk on egg shells routine. The other person would then have to adjust and change and conform, or leave.
    As long as your behavior was fine, that's how it would be.

  3. #553
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    This thread is better than cable tv.

    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  4. #554
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I haven’t caught up in this thread- but if I do, it won’t be until later, so I’ll just post this response now. Apologies if it’s just repeating something (which I haven’t read yet). And I know it’s long and somewhat repetitive, but if I wait until I can clean it up to make it more succinct I don’t know when I’d get to respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    if you would just be using it as a verbal tactics and doing so consciously that wouldn't be as bad, but based on what you and a couple of others have said here, your using the ad hominem much earlier, questioning the credibility of the source rather then the argument itself within the stage where your examining the argument in your head.
    Quote Originally Posted by from dictionary.com
    ad ho•mi•nem
       [ad hom-uh-nuhm ‐nem, ahd-] Show IPA
    adjective
    1.
    appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
    2.
    attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.


    There’s a difference between noticing the credibility of the source is shaky (and trying to point out why it seems that way) and trying to discredit the source by making them look bad.

    Many of the comments I made early on were crass- and that wasn’t specifically about you so much as the tendency for people to show in this thread (and in the forum) with a “I have all the right answers, and I can’t MAKE INFJs think what I want them to think! And y’all INFJs should be careful because the way your cognitive functions are stacked up you’re all one banana peel away from ripping other people’s souls to shreds! <insert elaborate explanation of what goes wrong in cognitive functions> “

    The thing is, and I’m not even sure what it is people are looking for when they do this because it doesn’t make any sense to me- is it REALLY some kind of public service announcement for INFJs? I guess, because it’s so ‘clear’ to me that if I’m going to start preaching to a group of strangers about ‘the danger of being [whatever group they’re a part of]’, then I better be careful about knowing what I’m talking about and/or I better be prepared to hear about how I might be mistaken.

    INFJs amass mental notes about people when they enter our sphere of observation. And I’m going to guess maybe it seems like some of the things we’ve said seem to come ‘from nowhere’ (this has actually come up before with EW in a thread- we were reacting to our cumulative experience of her, and she couldn’t understand why we were having the reaction we were having), which is maybe why certain things in this thread look ‘ad hominem’ (used to discredit an argument by discrediting a person). But what we’re doing isn’t “we’re not going to believe you because (pulls some ad hominem out of nowhere to avoid looking at argument)” so much as “it’s hard to give this much credit because my cumulative experience in reading your posts is that you don’t understand the INFJ perspective as much as you seem to believe you do.”

    If you’ve noticed that a local mechanic has done a lackluster job in fixing cars for several people you know, is it an ‘ad hominem’ to say “I don’t want to take my car there because he doesn’t seem like a very good mechanic?” Because it seems to me like ‘ad hominem’ only applies if the reasoning that led to the conclusion is based more on irrational intel- such as saying it because you don’t like the way he dresses, or maybe because he’s cut you off in traffic too many times, or some reason that doesn’t directly pertain to his automotive repair skills but you just irrationally want it to be true. I can only speak for myself here- but my experience in reading your posts thus far (mane) in this forum is that you have come to conclusions about “INFJ” that are far from universally applicable.

    Also: the initial post I made (“This just never gets old.”)- or even the rant about finding pedantic lecture after pedantic lecture in this thread- wasn’t aimed entirely at you, it was about finding pedantic lecture after pedantic lecture in this thread. I was trying to point out what this approach actually looks like to us- not trying to discredit it by forcing it into the ‘pedantic lecture’ box. You know what this thread has an amazing lack of? “What can I do to avoid an INFJ doorslam?” or “Help me understand this ‘overwhelm’ and help me understand how to avoid causing it.” Instead it’s full of “You people don’t know how hurtful your doorslamming behavior is, there’s no good excuse for it, and here’s how you should fix yourself to make my life easier: <elaborate function description/instructions>” It’s a real bonus when that function description includes how we are too resistant to new information ( ), because that’s a pot-kettle-black cherry on top.

    The best way to get us to take in new information? Ask us why we’re not taking in the information. Yeah- we can be frustrating- because every little bit of incoming information goes through a screening process and lots and lots of variables are taken into account. Asking us why we’re not taking in new information can either lead us to finding where our hang-up is, what’s tripping us up OR it can lead to showing you how the new information is flawed. But telling us to lose the screening process because it’s aggravating to you? That’s demonstrating a clear and present lack of understanding into how we think. This screening process doesn’t go away because someone tells us it’s annoying to deal with- the only thing you accomplish is either (best case scenario) discrediting yourself in our eyes or (worst case scenario) making us feel like the way we are is inherently so annoying that we aren’t fit for human interaction.

    The worst way to get us to take in new information? Telling us we’re not taking it in because our function order inherently leads us to contorting reality in a self-serving way- and that the only reason we’re not agreeing with your assessment is because we’re closed minded and pulling any ol’ excuse out of thin air to dismiss it, because that’s what we do, so we shouldn’t trust our own judgment and we should instead believe you are absolutely dead on in what your saying because….(why exactly? …you’re some stranger in an internet forum who hasn’t exactly demonstrated profound understanding of our thought process) well, just because. Because “it’s hurtful”, nevermind that the reason ‘doorslams’ happen in the first place because someone is behaving in a way that is overwhelming and hurtful to us. The worst way to get us to take in new information is to demand you understand something while demonstrating you don’t actually understand it- like I said before, all people are somewhat sensitive to this, but INFJs in particular are ridiculously sensitive to it. And we often don’t even fully understand why it’s hard to digest- because the fact that it’s a completely mixed message (saying two opposing things at the same time) is vague and out of grasp enough to make it impossible to articulate right away- but the full weight of it being a mixed message is RIGHT THERE for us, it manifests as an overwhelming ‘white noise’ and/or urge to remove the distressing element from our purview at any cost.

    In short: I’m not trying to discredit you by ‘labeling’ your argument as a pedantic lecture, I’m letting you know that anyone coming into this thread and putting forth a pedantic lecture is essentially effectively discrediting themselves by demonstrating a clear lack of understanding into how we think (often while trying to explain they know exactly how we think). Yes, the INFJ screening process is a pain in the ass, but if you don’t understand why it’s near impossible for us to swallow new information in its entirety without being able to pick it apart in the process then you DON’T understand how we think.

    Now- with you in particular- there are some problems in reading your posts because it seems like English isn’t your first language, so it’s especially hard to know exactly what you’re trying to say. But in your very first post you include:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i'm just going to share this with you INFJs... and tell you that this is nothing but your ugliest fucking side. […]

    you can high five each other's doorslams all you want, whenever there's a thread or a sub forum for one type it becomes a bloody wanking circle reaffirming our worst aspect, and this is no exception.

    but you can never convince me that this is right.
    You immediately demonstrate a fundamental lack in understanding the underlying distress that leads to doorslamming, while simultaneously claiming to know exactly why it happens. On top of that, it demonstrates a blatant disregard for that distress (in the way that “WOOOOT! I doorslammed again!” demonstrates a blatant disregard for any distress the doorslamming causes). I did not ‘attempt’ to discredit you with ad hominems. I’m merely trying to point out how you discredited yourself.

    I’ve said this before, and I can’t stress it enough- if you simply want to vent about frustration because the screening process of an INFJ you know is infuriating you…go for it. But it’s a good idea to make that clear. Because when these things are presented as some kind of public service announcement ‘for INFJs everywhere’- in a thread where many INFJs who are strangers to you will see it- you’d better be prepared to have it picked apart and dissected on more levels than you can imagine. Because that’s what people do in an internet forum set up to discuss mbti characteristics- make generalizations about any type, and people will disagree if they don't think it applies as universally as you think it does. You will find out EXACTLY how what you’re saying isn’t universally applicable to “INFJs”. But if you’re not interested in hearing how what you’re saying isn’t universally applicable to INFJs everywhere, then specify you are venting about the particular INFJs you know.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #555
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    that's... actually interesting. question: do you respect the same need of the other person, and if so, how is what your doing is actually doorslamming?

    I do, but only to a point. If a lot of time has been invested, or there's been a very serious breech of trust, at that point it is no longer worth the emotional investment and I actively seek to detach. I try to ensure that this never happens though without the person knowing why it is happening and without a lot of opportunity to resolve the issues.

    in that case, which is honestly the only case i am interested in (doorslamming a preexisting deep relationship), do you allow for the options for them to come up with possibilities that you didn't think of (before and after the 'doorslamming')?
    Before - absolutely and almost to a fault. After...well by that time I've lost hope. At the very least, I need some time to detach so that I can look at the situation more objectively. In some cases, I would be open at that point to discussion if it looked like the person actually did want to solve the problem, or if something had changed that could make the situation more workable. When I was younger, I think my boundaries were not as clearly delineated. Now I've realized that I can prevent things getting to that point, by defending the boundaries that I believe are most important before I get to the point of feeling so frustrated that there is no hope for the relationship to continue.

  6. #556

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    This thread is better than cable tv.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4w4ci7M24U"]it reminds me of this[/YOUTUBE]
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  7. #557
    Society
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    @Z Buck McFate
    1. you may be interested in reading your own damn post to know what my theory is based on.
    2. a car mechanic understands shit you don't -, a rational argument is something you can understand on your own. get the difference? have confidence in your own damn intelect and address the idea instead of where it comes from.
    3. you may want to read the OP fourth paragraph of this thread in order to understand why people are posting their own doorslamming expeirence with INFJs.

    anyway, i described my theory, i don't mind debating it, testing it, expanding on it, etc', but other then that i really don't care to make an ideological stance regarding how it should be used at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    At the very least, I need some time to detach so that I can look at the situation more objectively. In some cases, I would be open at that point to discussion if it looked like the person actually did want to solve the problem, or if something had changed that could make the situation more workable.
    that's... actually making me sort of hopeful.

    anyway to get a good word sent through INFJ-HQ/canada-branch/entp-relations/doorslamming-reconsideration-committe ?

  8. #558
    Sniffles
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    Yeah this thread has got me in the mood for a good ol'fashion doorslam!


  9. #559
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Loved the strength, sincerity and tone of your whole post @Z Buck McFate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    (this has actually come up before with EW in a thread- we were reacting to our cumulative experience of her, and she couldn’t understand why we were having the reaction we were having)
    Question: would it be more accurate to say the INFJ's were reacting to a limited amount of cumulative experience? EW was very new and basically had established little credibility with the INFJ's here at that time. So from my perspective anyway, that lack of previous interaction, especially from a positive frame of reference, was what caused the INFJ's in thread to react negatively, tune her out, and even almost shut her out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    address the idea instead of where it comes from.
    You, sir, have established no credibility yet either, so the more you appear to lecture, the more you will be tuned out as well. Just sayin' ... if you care about that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #560
    Dope Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah this thread has got me in the mood for a good ol'fashion doorslam!


    What happens if INFJs don't doorslam...

    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

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