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  1. #511

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    This just seems like a very elaborate version of:

    A: I'm not interested in what you have to say any more.
    B: But I really, really want you to be.
    A: Noted, but I'm not.
    B: Okay, but I really, really, really think you should be.

    I'm sure most IxxJs would find this futile, particularly were it preceded by a whole lot of riffraff, not just INFJs. I know mature ExxPs in real life (some from this forum) that would agree. They're not present in this discussion, but I am fortunate enough to have their friendship and they don't assume their judgment would serve me better on how to lead my life. A couple are wise enough to be unsure if their own judgment always serves their own lives. I admire these two particularly for their honesty and humility.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  2. #512
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    more importantly:
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    What I am saying is that I (as an INFJ - a bit different for different types, no doubt) cannot take in new information indefinitely, especially if doing so is placing me in a position which is consistently exhausting, demoralizing, draining, potentially dangerous...etc. Eventually there will be a cutoff point.
    isnt the reason that its demoralizing because reconsidering the other side's point of view puts you in a position of self-doubt and can potentially make you feel bad and force you to be critical of yourself and your own choices?

    and given that (as @YWIR explained better then me), embracing the act of doorslamming as a potential solution is putting your loved ones on eggshells in a position which is demoralizing, draining and exhausting - whether you doorslammed them already or not - shouldn't the golden rule play a role here? seems to me your complaining about having to share the position your putting your peers in.

  3. #513
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    more importantly:


    isnt the reason that its demoralizing because reconsidering the other side's point of view puts you in a position of self-doubt and can potentially make you feel bad and force you to be critical of yourself and your own choices?

    and given that as @YWIR explained better then me), embracing the act of doorslamming as a potential solution is putting your loved ones on eggshells in a position which is demoralizing, draining and exhausting - whether you doorslammed them already or not - shouldn't the golden rule play a role here? seems to me your complaining about having to share the position your putting your peers in.
    Not necessarily. As I think @violaine said, I don't make anyone walk on eggshells and I think the only time I have been accused of it is by an emotional vampire who I had to shut out for self-preservation.

    It can be demoralizing to go over the same thing over and over again, to feel constantly sucked dry, to be accused of things you genuinely haven't done, to hear the person tell you how special you are and then watch them go off again with the friends who they run down when speaking with you...etc. It is also notable when you undergo these sorts of experiences with a tiny number of people in your life - ie. constant conflict - and with everyone else you undergo nothing even remotely close to this.

    See, I just feel that you are assuming here that INFJs always doorslam people whose claims on them are legitimate and whose behaviour to them is proper. This tends NOT to be the case. What if someone is making totally unreasonable demands and treating you in a totally unacceptable way?

    I've been dealing with someone who either has borderline personality disorder or who certainly meets a lot of the criteria. There is broad agreement among mutual friends who know her that she is at best an extremely slow developer, and at worst mentally ill. If I were to meet her demands, she would be a) constantly physically clinging to me, b) following me wherever I go, c) taking out every inch of her frustration and unhappiness on me, d) expecting me to be always available at a moment's notice for free therapy, e) expecting me to place her above all of my friends...etc.

    There is a wide consensus among those who know both of us that I have already flexed too far with her (if anything) and am well within my rights to back off. I have done this to a certain extent and am currently meditating what to do beyond this. It is a complex situation and I may need to shut her out entirely to let her know that the "friendship" cannot continue. I have tried so hard with this girl and very little has worked. The best thing I have done for her is push her to seek professional help.

    If she had her way I would flex for her indefinitely. She will always come back and tell me that she didn't mean to hurt or drain me, but it happened because of xyz. This has happened repeatedly for two years. So, do I keep listening to her indefinitely, or do I start to spend more time looking after myself?

    I really don't get why you seem to assume that ALL doorslams are because INFJs somehow "don't want to hear the truth about themselves" (ie. your take on why it could be demoralizing.) Do you really think there are no occasions where the INFJ has analyzed themselves, the other person and the situation in-depth, and has realised that the other person is treating them badly and it can't go on?
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  4. #514
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    and given that (as YWIR explained better then me), embracing the act of doorslamming as a potential solution is putting your loved ones on eggshells in a position which is demoralizing, draining and exhausting - whether you doorslammed them already or not - shouldn't the golden rule play a role here? seems to me your complaining about having to share the position your putting your peers in.
    At the same time though...I don't think YWIR was advocating 'try to stop all INFJs from ever doorslamming again by showing them the error of their ways'. She can come and correct me if I'm wrong...but I think she even stated a few pages back...'no sensable person would put up with this behavior'. Like in a 'move on - don't waste your time' kind of way.

  5. #515
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Esoteric brought this up, but to expect an IxxJ to continuously 'float' without requiring and working towards closure is the same as expecting an ExxP to reach definitive decision points/closure as a lifestyle. The two will always have inherently different approaches: it's what makes them vastly different. For myself, I don't 'expect' ExxP's to become like me.. it's just not fair to them and also would take away what makes them THEM. I also would only be with an ExxP if they were ok with how my primary preferences were: and I with them. The success between the two will only occur if both are in the end not trying to morph the other into someone they are not.
    Yeah...all of this. Closure is eventually needed. And constantly taking in more and more information - especially when it seems like beating a dead horse- is nothing like "closure."
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  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    See, I just feel that you are assuming here that INFJs always doorslam people whose claims on them are legitimate and whose behaviour to them is proper.
    no, i am simply saying that by the very nature of the doorslam, you are avoiding critical information about whether the claims on you are legitimate.

    and as for your case, i just have to say; seriously? you have to doorslam her because you can't say "no i'm with other friends" or "no i'm busy" or "no i want to be alone for awhile"? your assertive enough to doorslam but not to do all of those?

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah...all of this. Closure is eventually needed. And constantly taking in more and more information - especially when it seems like beating a dead horse- is nothing like "closure."
    but the very act doesn't give the other person any closure - you say your last word and don't allow it to be answered - that's the very nature of the doorslam. its one sided unilteral closure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    At the same time though...I don't think YWIR was advocating 'try to stop all INFJs from ever doorslamming again by showing them the error of their ways'. She can come and correct me if I'm wrong...but I think she even stated a few pages back...'no sensable person would put up with this behavior'. Like in a 'move on - don't waste your time' kind of way.
    huh? read the two other posts where she expanded on it....

  8. #518
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    no, i am simply saying that by the very nature of the doorslam, you are avoiding critical information about whether the claims on you are legitimate.

    and as for your case, i just have to say; seriously? you have to doorslam her because you can't say "no i'm with other friends" or "no i'm busy" or "no i want to be alone for awhile"? your assertive enough to doorslam but not to do all of those?
    Have you dealt with anyone with BPD? What do you do with someone who follows you down the street even when you turn around and scream "leave me alone" at them? This has happened.

    Why do you assume I haven't already tried "no I'm busy", etc? I have...ad nauseam. This is part of my point. Doorslams are a LAST RESORT. When someone intrudes themselves into your life even when you scream "leave me alone" and "stop violating my boundaries" at them, doorslams start to seem like a real possibility.

    You don't read people's posts properly. What did you think "I've tried so hard with this girl" meant? It meant I have tried to be a good friend to her while at the same time establishing boundaries. And with some people this proves impossible.
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  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    huh? read the two other posts where she expanded on it....
    *Runs to go and read YWIR's two other posts with a cocktail sword-pick in hand*

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Have you dealt with anyone with BPD?
    i actually don't know - i dealt with someone who suspected they had BPD but i have no idea if it was the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    What do you do with someone who follows you down the street even when you turn around and scream "leave me alone" at them? This has happened.
    offer a trade.

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