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  1. #461
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    first: research ad hominems, seriously. it's really fundemental to rational thinking, and their are INFJs who are competent at rational thinking. if it wasn't so creepy i would give you addresses. second:
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Just the very fact that you have mentioned- a couple of times over- perceiving us as having delighted in doorslamming
    try to quote those mentions of my saying that. see, while by high fiving each other i meant showing support towards each other. i know i never percieved INFJs as taking a delight in it, i'm pretty sure i never described that they did. that was something 'extra' that youv'e read.

    which sort of makes this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This makes me think you're hearing something *extra* when we say ‘we consider the source’.
    sad...

    and no, not only because your giving up on an idea (that is actually partially inspired by something you've said btw) that could potentially help you in life and save your loved ones a lot of pain just because you jumped your conclusion of my understanding of the situation, but because that kind of thinking in itself is integral to the doorslam phenomena: judging other's character for what you do yourself.

    now, this is going to seem a bit ugly - picking a case to disect - but fidelia's example is the most easy to demonstrate:
    i don't know her well enough to know if it applies to her fully, but the chances are very good that it does - because generally INFJs tend to be very private with the information they will let themselves divulge about themselves and as people who often take the social role of providing council, it is nearly unavoidable that they will find themselves in situations where they will avoid giving away information that other people would find important. in other words, lying-by-omission. yet in her doorslamming story, the reason she doorslammed her ex was him doing something that she probably does herself often - lying by omission. now, i'm sure she score a lot on those to get an INFJ, but where was the Ni-Fe then at that moment? where was the room for reasons, circumstances and justifications from his perspective that in all probably she lends herself? my answer is simple - it wasn't there.

    yet the most common sentiment seems to be that the person is abusive. now, the world is full of abuse victims, but where are the abusers? do you think they aren't saying it because of shame? maybe a few, but i am betting most of them have no acknowledgement of behaving abusively towards others. they may even have very particular relationships where they did, and many where they didn't, all together reinforcing the classic line of a beating spouse - "look what you've made me do".

    what differentiates them from others is that they don't ask if their behavior is abusive, they don't look into the other person's perspective. when you find yourself in a situation you can't do that, the judgement you need to act on isn't of someone else - that's percisely what stands behind abusive mentalities in the first place - rather, it's of yourself, and since you can't doorslam yourself you better figure out a way to work on it. being aware of this would help you do so. choosing whether to use it - ofcourse - is your own damn business.

    and whether it is a staple of the INFJs or not, it would explain a lot, because it becomes so much easier to have high ideals for people when you ignore whether you fullfill them yourself.

  2. #462
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Okay, I don't think I've even read this thread in it's entirety- let alone anything on per c- so thank you for this point. I just know there's a pattern in this thread, and really this whole doorslam topic, for someone to show up and project their own experience into what they're hearing (so when we say "we had to cut them off"- the other person instantly perceives a world of selfishness in it and scans for some flaw in OUR judgement instead of considering how it might be true) and frankly I think we might project some previous hurt/exhaustion into the arguments we're hearing as well (because the last time we heard them, someone was explaining why they feel entitled to our our time, energy, attention, etc, beyond what's reasonable- and having someone scan our words/logic for some flaw which 'proves' they are entitled to EVEN MOAR attention/energy/affection/whatever is a real trigger.....at least for me it is).
    Exactly. And that's why I'll repeat that I was so happy to find this site. Things do seem to have changed a bit in this thread...and on the site in recent times...but I do have *big love* for this thread because I believe, for the most part, we covered a lot of ground and discussed this issue openly and without pretense. And I, for one, am sorta forever-grateful to the INFJs here that were willing to do that.

    ***I know it is my morbid sense of humor...but I do need people to laugh when they imagine me in my situation (having absolutely no understanding of what had happened to me)...first stumbling across posts on other sites containing messages like...'whoooooo I totally doorslammed someone! I heart doorslamming!'. I'm sorry but I do think it's funny.

  3. #463
    violaine
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    It's like the "doorslam" has taken on a life of it's own when it comes to INFJs. Which makes me wonder why.

    This is general musing. Not in response to anyone and certainly not BalanceFind's situation.

    I wonder if the following is the case sometimes? In close relationships, an INFJ is generally empathetic and understanding and provides strong emotional support. But that's not the only function of an empathetic person and it's a mistake to see them that way. Emotional support is a resource that has to be nurtured in order for it to be sustainable. And not plundered. I wonder if some people think that the empathetic support is endless? Or that the INFJ gives and doesn't need much in return? (Even if an empathetic person just wants to give and not need much themselves, it's not sustainable. An empathetic person needs to be built back up regularly in order to happily sustain the relationship). I think confusing situations arise when people do not have good boundaries in relationships. That is, giving too much or taking too much. Some empathetic people don't have good boundaries and have to cut people out when they are spent.

    Perhaps it can seem like mixed messages too when an INFJ still cares but does not want to be personally involved with someone anymore. The only way for an INFJ to move on is to disentangle psychologically. That requires the INFJ to isolate themselves from a person who has a history of being able to access their empathetic side, to the empath's own detriment.

    My own experience has shown me that the direction my empathetic feelings are pulling me in is often at odds with the direction my dreams and plans dictate.

    I think it's often the case that an empathetic person overstays a relationship. They grieve/become resolute while the relationship is ending and then go when they are sure it's over. That may be a shock to their partner who perhaps thought the relationship was still in ok shape. I have disentangled from certain people. It's a last resort because it's so painful. But I had to go. It's not a decision I've ever taken lightly. I have doorslammed someone only once. He was lucky he got as much time as he did.

    (Personally, I think pain is incidental to growth. I have a strong desire to always be moving forward in some way. I don't want to be held back in life due to expending my energy on someone who can't stand on their own if need be. It's hard to explain completely. It's very nuanced. But the closest I can come is that I only want to be in relationships where each partner builds the other up overall. I am near repulsed at the idea of being in a relationship where people relate to each other out of their inferior sides... i.e. people who are only together because they tolerate each other's vices. Or because they can't be alone).

  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post

    I wonder if the following is the case sometimes? In close relationships, an INFJ is generally empathetic and understanding and provides strong emotional support. But that's not the only function of an empathetic person and it's a mistake to see them that way. Emotional support is a resource that has to be nurtured in order for it to be sustainable. And not plundered. I wonder if some people think that the empathetic support is endless? Or that the INFJ gives and doesn't need much in return? (Even if an empathetic person just want to give and not need much themselves, it's not sustainable. An empathetic person needs to be built back up regularly in order to happily sustain the relationship). I think confusing situations arise when people do not have good boundaries in relationships. That is, giving too much or taking too much. Some empathetic people don't have good boundaries and have to cut people out when they are spent.
    Violaine, I thought your entire post was well thought out and trying to take a step back.

    I think part of my post was less-well-worded, but I was trying to say similar with the below:

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco
    You know, I have to say that the being-super-in-tuned-with-others is just one side of the coin, and relying wholly on that - factoring other peoples' stories/perspectives into your own - often blinds you to your OWN story. And, you write it as if that and only that is what defines INFJ's as being 'healthy'. I would argue that in many ways, keeping things only at that level keeps the INFJ from actualizing beyond that element of themselves. It prevents other avenues of growth. There is far more to an INFJ than forever playing the role of 'council' and forever weaving others' stories into their own. imo Health also requires the knowledge of knowing when to draw the lines, and when to recognize that weaving certain elements are in fact not good, not true, not healthy, etc.
    I find it kind of perplexing/confusing if people only see INFJ's in the light of empathy/factoring others in. Yes, that's a piece, but that's not at all the extent of the INFJ pesona, and I think it is a mistake if others fall into the habit of viewing this as the primary driving force behind an INFJ. Fe is only one aspect of the INFJ, and incorporating other aspects is not a negative thing imo.

    Also, I think there are many things going on in this thread, and I fear we're all probably talking about different things. I still don't really understand a complete shutout without resolution/closure.
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  5. #465
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    I find this thread fascinating. And, I've learned a lot about myself and INFJs from it. I want to thank everyone who has participated... even when the tone of this thread has occasionally slipped into the the realm of vituperation. Overall, it's been wonderful, meaningful discourse.



    I did want to suggest @Mane read an earlier post I made in which I think I articulated what I've come to learn about INFJ doorslamming from my ENFP perspective. You see when I started this thread, I was a lot closer to where Mane seems to be at now. I think it natural for ENxPs to view doorslamming with bewilderment and even hostility.

    But over these past months I've learned to accept that doorslamming can be a valid choice for INFJs... even though it can sometimes be abused by them. Understanding when an INFJ is and is not abusing the doorslam was critical to me being able to "forgive" those INFJs who had doorslammed me. (One was and unhealthy INFJ doorslam and the other was partly my fault.)

    (Sorry that it's so long, but I think it's well worth the effort to read it carefully.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Now seems the time to take a moment and summarize what I’ve learned from this thread so far.

    What is Doorslamming?
    Doorslamming occurs when an INFJ cuts off contact with someone in their acquaintance. It is my observation that INFJs are more likely (in comparison with the other 15 personality types) to engage in doorslamming.

    Doorslamming Takes Many Forms
    This is a complicated issue that cannot be understood with a single, pat answer. Doorslamming may or may not be a permanent break in contact. And, INFJs may or may not feel guilty about doorslamming someone. But whatever the form or feeling, breaking off contact with people is a natural way for INFJs to handle <insert the INFJ’s reason here>.

    Doorslamming Is Hard for non-INFJs to Understand
    I think that one of the most difficult aspects of being an INFJ is the inherent contradiction in cognitive functions all INFJs experience. It’s like they are being pulled in different directions by their INFJ-ness. I’ve often thought that being an INFJ was a tough card to be dealt. But the ones that overcome the inherent obstacles in their INFJ-ness are truly amazing people.

    Ni versus Fe. INFJs feel a need to connect with other people. And, yet they can be overwhelmed by the very connections they seek. They must be in contact with people and they must be alone to reflect and process. Vicki Jo Varner explains this very well.

    For INFJ's, I have often used the metaphor of being up in an "ivory tower," trying to get a glimpse of what's on the horizon. And then, when I activate my extraverted Feeling, I have to run down the steps of that tower in order to get to ground level and connect with people there. (Any time I try calling down from the turret of the tower, people think I'm speaking in "tongues" or I'm spewing incoherent jabberwocky, because it's nearly impossible to eloquently articulate all the complexity I'm seeing.) - from INFJ iNtuition
    Even before reading Ms. Varner’s words, I’d used the term shuttlecock to describe this phenomenon. A shuttlecock is tossed back and forth in badminton. So are the psyches of INFJs who are able to see all the permutations in any situation, and yet feel a compelling need to be decisive. As an ENFP, I too am blessed with dominant Intuition. My Ne allows me to see all the connections and all the possibilities in any given situation. But unlike my INFJ mirrors, I don’t feel compelled to decide upon one out of the many. This has got to be really tough for INFJs.

    I think it hard for other types to understand these contradictory forces. This is further complicated by the INFJ’s reluctance to be transparent in their thinking. In other words, the people in the INFJ’s life may have no clue regarding pre-doorslamming ruminations until the door has been shut.

    INFJs Doorslam for Many Reasons
    Many reasons have been given in this thread for why an INFJ will slam the door on someone. I’ve tried to summarize them here:
    • Immorality of the other person. In other words, the INFJ perceives the other person has done something wrong and thus they decide they don't want that person to be in their life anymore.
    • Being Overwhelmed. The INFJ needs to put distance between themselves and the person with whom they experience uncomfortably powerful emotions. I think of my dog that gets overwhelmed with happiness upon seeing me and then has to go hide under the bed. INFJs feel things very intensely and sometimes need to get some distance. (As an ENFP, btw, I understand this very well. I also feel things very intensely. It can be quite overwhelming at times.)
    • Fearing Failure. INFJs feel failure when they hurt other people and when they fail to meet the high expectations they have for themselves. If an INFJ feels they might fail in these areas, cutting off contact with that person seems a viable solution for the INFJ.
    • Kindness. Sometimes the INFJ feels that the kindest thing to do for someone is to cut them loose. Think of the word agape. The INFJ may decide that doorslamming this person to be the kindest thing they can do for them.
    • Sense of closure. INFJs need to have a sense of closure when it comes to their personal relationships. They may ruminate on them, but once they’ve made a decision, the Rubicon has been crossed, so to speak.


    Conclusions
    Whatever the reason for shutting the door, I’ve come to accept that for INFJs doorslamming is a valid choice... even if it goes against the very essence of my ENFP sensibilities. All INFJs doorslam to some extent. It is a natural choice based on their unique mix of cognitive functions.

    But an unhealthy/immature INFJ may engage in doorslamming in maladaptive ways. The real problem comes when the INFJ overindulges in doorslamming. When cutting off contact with another person becomes an easy answer to the complicated process INFJs must undergo to process incoming information and navigate discomfort in their relationships.


    I read once that Introverted Intuition is akin to a framework for understanding. Every time new information comes into the INFJ’s psyche, they must reprocess the entire framework to incorporate the new information. This is a very laborious process. Thus, to conserve mental energy, INFJs will sometimes dismiss new information if they judge it’s a rehashing of something they've processed previously. If the INFJ isn’t careful, they will fall into the trap of dismissing outside input too readily.

    In other words, some INFJs use Fe to serve the needs of Ni by rejecting new information. A more healthy, balanced approach would be for Fe to judge whether or not the INFJ's framework is still valid given the new information coming in. This takes more mental work, but it is critical for a healthy INFJ.

    An INFJ who uses their Fe to serve the needs of their Ni, rather than to check its excesses, will be rigid in their life stance. Such an INFJ may come off as opinionated, dismissive, snobbish, or arrogant. These INFJs see only what they want to see and are sorely lacking in humility.

    Thus, these unhealthy INFJs will doorslam people who threaten their framework (aka Ni). (This is just another a way of dismissing outside input isn't it? By killing the messenger?) This is kind of doorslamming is unhealthy, needlessly hurtful, and just plain immature. Not every INFJ does this, but the ones that do need a good kick in the *ss.
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  6. #466

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yes, you have a point about those. I've also seen the threads containing quotes such as "OMG! I'm totally an INFJ and I like totally doorslam people all the time! Like my friend totally pissed me off the other day so I totally doorslammed her! LOLZ!!!!"

    I'm never quite sure what to make of those. I think they're just very young and immature, basically, regardless of type. Some may be INFJs, some not.
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  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Immorality of the other person. In other words, the INFJ perceives the other person has done something wrong and thus they decide they don't want that person to be in their life anymore.
    something which as i demonstrated in my post above, and noticed in most of the doorslamming stories detailed enough and in the cases i know the person, is often judging them for something that the INFJ has no trouble doing themselves in many cases in which they feel justified for doing so from their perspective, thus forcing us to ask the question why at that point they can't be open to the other person's perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Being Overwhelmed. The INFJ needs to put distance between themselves and the person with whom they experience uncomfortably powerful emotions. I think of my dog that gets overwhelmed with happiness upon seeing me and then has to go hide under the bed. INFJs feel things very intensely and sometimes need to get some distance.
    ...that's the point where you take for yourself space, ask for it from your loved ones and explain why you need it. its not the point where you doorslam someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Fearing Failure. INFJs feel failure when they hurt other people and when they fail to meet the high expectations they have for themselves. If an INFJ feels they might fail in these areas, cutting off contact with that person seems a viable solution for the INFJ.
    Kindness. Sometimes the INFJ feels that the kindest thing to do for someone is to cut them loose. Think of the word agape. The INFJ may decide that doorslamming this person to be the kindest thing they can do for them.
    in both of those cases, it's simply an understanding that the person you are with is responsible for their own choices - if there's something about you that bothers them or hurts them and they still want in, they have their reasons, and while you should feel free to question them about it, it's their well being and their choice for you to respect. basic curtesy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Sense of closure. INFJs need to have a sense of closure when it comes to their personal relationships. They may ruminate on them, but once they’ve made a decision, the Rubicon has been crossed, so to speak.
    the very nature of the doorslam - cutting off communication towards you - means that your not allowing any sense of closure to the other person.

    and sorry but:
    A shuttlecock is tossed back and forth in badminton. So are the psyches of INFJs who are able to see all the permutations in any situation, and yet feel a compelling need to be decisive.
    no, and i can't stress this enough- Ni isn't a magical psychic bond with the 3 Keres anymore then Ne is the magical eye into the Mutliverse or Fe is a the power of telepathy or Fi is the ear to the universe's inristic absolute values or Ti/Te are the all mighty all-variable calculating singularities.

    this isn't a comic book with super powers, those are processes happening in our minds.

  8. #468
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    A sensible person wouldn't put up with this sort of behaviour. It's exhausting. I understand needing to take a day or two to brew things over, but ultimately, clear communication needs to be established.

  9. #469

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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    A sensible person wouldn't put up with this sort of behaviour. It's exhausting. I understand needing to take a day or two to brew things over, but ultimately, clear communication needs to be established.
    Which behavior are you referring to?
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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  10. #470
    figsfiggyfigs
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Which behavior are you referring to?
    The doors-slamming/disappearance act mentioned in OP.

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