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  1. #421
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    you can high five each other's doorslams all you want, whenever there's a thread or a sub forum for one type it becomes a bloody wanking circle reaffirming our worst aspect, and this is no exception.
    Is there really even a single post in this entire thread that seems like a high five over doorslamming someone?


    I think what perpetually stuns me about this thread is that I don’t understand what people hope to get out of showing up with pedantic lectures because some INFJ wasn’t responsible for how their squirrely-ness negatively affected someone. Is it just a need to vent to someone? Or do you people really think you’re changing lives by lecturing about the ‘dangers of INFJ thinking’, because we’re all just one banana peel away from hurting the people we love? If you need to vent, then fine, *and* it’s probably a good idea to clarify that’s what’s going on.

    @BalanceFind’s situation in particular sounds exceptionally sucky, and it’s more than unfortunate he has had to deal with it. I’m not trying to belittle the hurt anyone has experienced. The problematic here is that when posts are framed as ‘advice for INFJs’…..it’s kind of like writing an ‘advice for Christians’ post because of Michelle Bachman. Most of the Christians I personally know find her offensive, and so approaching them with ‘advice’ about the ‘dangers of Christianity’ is kind of like (1) watering a dead plant and (2) it’s offensive, because it’s presupposing that being a Christian means inherently lacking critical thought and probably having weaker moral fiber. It’s coming from a place of moral and intellectual superiority as a ‘non-Christian’. But venting to them about Michelle Bachman is another matter entirely.

    I think my biggest issue with this thread is that it tends to invite people who are primarily interested in fixing ‘others’. Thales- presocratic philosopher- when asked what the most difficult possible thing for a person to do is, answered “To know oneself.” When asked what the easiest possible thing to do is, he answered “To give someone else advice.” One thing that is consistently true about INFJs- we consider the source when we are being told something. One thing that always makes a good impression on me- leads me to give a person credit and makes me want to understand their point of view- is when I see someone who takes responsibility for how they make others feel, when what they have to say consistently seems very wise to me and feels respectful. Some people just don’t *get* that it’s not as easy as showing up and saying “I’m respectful of others’ feelings” to convince me that they even begin to grasp what it means to be respectful of others’ feelings. AND something that tends to make me give less weight to someone’s opinion- at times, to the point where I don’t take much of anything they say seriously- is when they preach and preach about how others should take responsibility for how they make people feel yet seem to lack any direct/organic understanding of this ‘lesson’ themselves.
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  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I'd expect the apology that will never come from them, by the way. I cut other people out because they've messed me around, not because I've messed them around.
    i am putting my money that you know - without even thinking about it on a near automatic basis - that in relationships there's two sides, and just like everything you did had your reasons and perspective and some of it might be derived from the interactions within the relationship, so does theirs, and that normally this isn't even a question for you - you understand their perspective to an extent that it becoms part of your perspective.

    am i wrong?

    and if i'm not, can you think of any healthy instances in your life, in which your not overwhelmed and your stres buttons aren't pushed,, where this would ever apply:
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    it is pretty much true that at that point I really don't care about their feelings any more.
    ?

  3. #423
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i am putting my money that you know - without even thinking about it on a near automatic basis - that in relationships there's two sides, and just like everything you did had your reasons and perspective and some of it might be derived from the interactions within the relationship, so does theirs, and that normally this isn't even a question for you - you understand their perspective to an extent that it becoms part of your perspective.

    am i wrong?

    and if i'm not, can you think of any healthy instances in your life, in which your not overwhelmed and your stres buttons aren't pushed,, where this would ever apply:

    ?
    Yeah, I actually think you're pretty much right about all of the above. And you know what? Sometimes removing someone from your life is part of the healing process, because when they're gone, they can't go on hurting and messing you around any more. If they remain in my life, I'm still going to be overwhelmed and stressed. And when I'm feeling healthier again, I realise that I still don't want them back in my life.

    Everyone has their reasons for the way they act. I understand that. But there comes a point when I stop caring and I think "you should stop messing others around because of your childhood issues - and I no longer want to be the person you use and abuse for free therapy, to feel better about yourself, etc. I need to look after myself now."

    I assure you I've never done this on the spur of the moment. There has always (and again, this is a very small number of occasions) been a great deal of time, thought, and history behind it.
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  4. #424
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the very few people in my life I've ever chosen not to contact again were not products of my stress or hurt, but rather a fairly calmly made decision that we simply weren't on the same page and I couldn't trust their word. I think it's fairly usual to decide after some time that you are not compatible with someone as a friend or that you only plan to pursue contact with those whom you feel their is a basic level of trust in their character.

    I can only think of two people where this has been the case. In one case, it was a former summer boyfriend whom I had written to throughout university with the understanding that neither of us were interested in pursuing a relationship. However, as he continued writing, something seemed a little off and I found out that he had been dating someone for quite some time and chose not to mention it because he didn't feel good about the choices he was making and didn't want anyone to call him on them. To me, I felt it was disrespectful to his girlfriend and so told him when I chose to discontinue contact that 1) friendships are built on honesty 2) if I were his girlfriend, I wouldn't like him communicating daily with someone he used to date, even if for a short time.

    In the other, it was a man much older than me whom I had met on a trip to the east coast. He had a lot of historical knowledge about a project I was doing and was a valuable person to consult. We started writing as an outgrowth of the manuscript that I was editing, even though I made it clear that I wasn't interested in a romantic relationship, which he would have liked. In retrospect, I understand now that most men don't put that kind of effort in unless they are still hoping that something will come of it, but at the time I thought it was possible to be platonic friends as long as there was distance and you were clear about your intentions. Anyway, I had plans to go to my great-great-grandmother's home town, where he lived to do some research one summer. My mum was coming along with me. He outright lied, saying that he had some connections to people who would have exactly the kind of information I was looking for, when really he was hoping to spend some time alone together and knew those people didn't have any useful information. Once we got there, I was embarrassed (my mum had come specifically because of the people we would be interviewing etc), and was especially unimpressed about the lying. It would have been different if he had made an honest mistake, and the leads didn't turn out to be as good as he had hoped. Anyway, after that point, I saw no reason to continue a friendship if basic honesty and trust was not present and if our goals were different.

    Like Z Buck, I don't see most INFJs rejoicing over doorslamming, nor do I know many INFJs who have a huge string of doorslams that they've amassed. Most are the product of a lot of thought and many second chances.

    I'll tell you this - probably out of any type (and ENFPs from some of the threads here will also tell you this), before INFJs are going to accept your advice, they are going to need to establish that you are a credible person who also has the resources and experiences necessary to be qualified to give them direction. That takes more than a one-sided story about how you've been done wrong, especially if you don't show signs of introspection as you are questioned about what happened. It especially seems unlikely that your advice will be accepted when you don't get to know each of the people you are advising as individuals. Their backgrounds, circumstances, and attitudes are very unique, even if they share the same type.

  5. #425
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'll tell you this - probably out of any type (and ENFPs from some of the threads here will also tell you this), before INFJs are going to accept your advice, they are going to need to establish that you are a credible person who also has the resources and experiences necessary to be qualified to give them direction. That takes more than a one-sided story about how you've been done wrong, especially if you don't show signs of introspection as you are questioned about what happened. It especially seems unlikely that your advice will be accepted when you don't get to know each of the people you are advising as individuals. Their backgrounds, circumstances, and attitudes are very unique, even if they share the same type.

    Exactly, this is the point I was trying to make. I do think INFJs in particular are quite sensitive to the source of any given feedback. I think it’s important to point out that ‘introspection’ here is not simply ‘time spent alone reflecting on what happened’. Because it seems like a *lot* of that variety of introspection has gone into these rather elaborate explanations of how ‘INFJs can go wrong’. The degree to which someone’s introspection yields responsible and respectful results- qualities which are self-evident, and a person claiming to have them isn’t anywhere near the same thing as a person DEMONSTRATING these qualities- is the degree to which their feedback will be considered. Putting forth arguments that essentially look like:
    …is possibly one of the quickest ways to lose credibility with an INFJ. It doesn’t matter how ‘solidly’ these very elaborate explanations (for what goes wrong with OUR processing) are presented- without simultaneously presenting any acknowledgement of responsibility for inciting overwhelm in first place, any solid explanation of how the conflict is (entirely) someone else’s fault is going to look like the imbalanced power dynamic of a pedantic clown (who is being every bit as anti-dialogical as the INFJ behavior they are attacking).

    I will say again that the situation BalanceFind has presented seems incredibly unfortunate- but it isn’t remotely the same kind of situation we’re defending when we try to explain where/when it seems a ‘doorslam’ is necessary.
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  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That takes more than a one-sided story about how you've been done wrong, especially if you don't show signs of introspection as you are questioned about what happened.
    huh? i've said how i sabatoged the relationship:

    throughout it, the main problem was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    she never believed me, i always told her how beautiful and brilliant she is, she always impressed me again and again like nobody has, and i told her each time how awesome it was... and she never believed me, always found a way to devalue it, always found a way to dismiss it... i could never make her feel good about herself... that's what accumilated, she listened to the bad stuff, not to grow but just to feel worst about herself, and yet never listened to the good stuff, to most of everything i felt about her and valued in her.. that's what broke us... so how can i now ask her to listen to a story that would make her feel worst about herself?
    and in the end, the doorslam was about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    there was no spite, i didn'twant it to humiliate her, i just couldn't deal with it myself so i reacted in my own extraverted way - talking and talking and talking for whoever was willing to listen, and was unable to access the information in my mind that would tell me why not too, that would find a path and make the situation less then hopelesss. i did eventually, but it took me awhile to get there... too long for her.
    from her perspective, basically i wasn't able to be reaffirming enough for her, i impressed her as a man but was unable to make her feel good about herself as a woman no matter how much i've tried, maybe i didn't know how to express it... maybe her insecurities would have devalued it no matter how i did, i don't know. but it caused a lot of frustration and problems that snowballed and lead to the breakup...

    then, when she missed me and contacted me, she was confronted with a humiliating expeirence in which i was talking about everything i was feeling, angry and blaming her, to anyone who'd listen, without any show of the consideration she's being used to getting from me... namely our shared friends, which at that point included people from each other's extended family.

    this is where this advice came from - my own mistakes, and the reason why since then i don't describe in details my judgement of her or what she did but focus on what i'm going through - i know how she would feel if i did, even if she never gets to read it (and somehow i doubt she creeps around the internet following me around after doorslammng me).

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It especially seems unlikely that your advice will be accepted when you don't get to know each of the people you are advising as individuals. Their backgrounds, circumstances, and attitudes are very unique, even if they share the same type.
    the general part of my advice is simple and regardless of type (though it's meanings changes from type to type), and summarized by lady X:
    that's very interesting tho...i like it. i imagine it is extremely important to know when not to trust your own judgment.
    i think i can apply this to your first example easily enough - with the obvious disclaimer that i may be missing critical information - but i don't know you well enough to know if it would be apriciated.

    the second one doesn't seem like much of a doorslam - i might be wrong but it doesn't sound like you had developed a relationship before you closed it off...

  7. #427
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    As far as I can see, you picked an insecure girl and I doubt that any amount of reassurance wouldn't have changed things. I can see how she'd be mad at your for talking to anyone who would listen about it though,especially if she didn't feel that you had an accurate take on what was going on.

    You still don't seem to be understanding - if INFJs want advice, they will solicate it from someone whom they respect and who they believe has the skills to be of help. Therefore, coming into a thread to tell what you have gleaned from your experiences before checking to see if it applies to your audience seems officious, even if it is not intended that way.

    In the first case you mentioned, I wish him the best. I just didn't want to be a part of a messy situation and I value integrity a lot. In the second case, we emailed most days for about two years and talked on the phone from time to time, so there was a fairly close friendship there which was abruptly curtailed. (In retrospect the contact was a dumb idea, as was interpreted as sending mixed messages. I respected his intelligence and knowledge, he was a fellow INFJ and I'd never met any before in real life, I liked the culture where he was from, and living far away from my usual surroundings, it was nice to get mail everyday. I thought I had covered my bases by saying I wasn't interested, but now I realize that isn't very realistic and could be a user-y on my part, even if it wasn't consciously meant to be.)

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You still don't seem to be understanding - if INFJs want advice, they will solicate it from someone whom they respect and who they believe has the skills to be of help. Therefore, coming into a thread to tell what you have gleaned from your experiences before checking to see if it applies to your audience seems officious, even if it is not intended that way.
    if the advice applies to them or if they would be willing to listen to?

    as you might expect i am somewhat cautious about judging indevidual INFJs under a spotlight... so feel free to not answer when i ask:

    looking over your life, you've never lied-by-omission? you never felt their was information, that from the perspective of others might have being important information, but that under your perspective, under your circumstances and reasons, you didn't want to share with them, or perhaps didn't think about sharing? and in such cases, did you not feel that being judged for doing so without fully understanding what you where going through and why you've made the choices you've made would have left you misunderstood? and after the introspection following such cases, would you not tailor your attitude towards others to be open about it, to learn the context under which they did it?

  9. #429
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    You know this door slam thing. I have thought this every time I've seen this thread. I don't think this door slam behavior is limited to INFJs in any manner, shape or form.

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  10. #430
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    if the advice applies to them or if they would be willing to listen to?

    as you might expect i am somewhat cautious about judging indevidual INFJs under a spotlight... so feel free to not answer when i ask:

    looking over your life, you've never lied-by-omission? you never felt their was information, that from the perspective of others might have being important information, but that under your perspective, under your circumstances and reasons, you didn't want to share with them, or perhaps didn't think about sharing? and in such cases, did you not feel that being judged for doing so without fully understanding what you where going through and why you've made the choices you've made would have left you misunderstood? and after the introspection following such cases, would you not tailor your attitude towards others to be open about it, to learn the context under which they did it?
    You have not checked whether or not the INFJs you are addressing do what you say your ex has done to you. Therefore, it is not about willingness to listen to advice generally. It is that you have proven yourself to be an unreliable source of advice, and the more you insist that you can fix all of the INFJ shortcomings in the world, the more resistant you continue to render your INFJ audience.

    You don't appear to see them as anything but a homogenous group, and Ti thinking that feels this starting premise is flawed therefore would discount any further conclusions you have to offer. If your starting premise is inaccurate, your conclusions will also be.

    Second of all, you actually have to convince your audience that there is a problem with them to begin with before you start to offer them a solution. They are not your girlfriend, and come to the table with varied ages, experiences, philosophical systems, relationship statuses and so on. It seems to me that your sample group is too small to be entirely reliable. For example, while some behaviours in my ex-ESTJ were typical of ESTJs, others were not. Still others were made more extreme because I didn't fully understand where he was coming from and reacted using my normal starting premises, which were different than his. Of course there were misunderstandings because despite seeing the same thing, we both interpreted in the light of our starting premises, which were quite different. Spending time on this site has helped me to sort through what parts were more generalizable, and which ones were more specific to our own unique circumstances and ourselves as individuals.

    Third, most INFJs will not take well to epithets of closed minded stubbornness, when that simply isn't the case. They just may not choose to take YOUR advice if it doesn't appear to have validity and they don't trust the source as a reliable one.

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