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  1. #391

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    Imo narcissists are both covert and overt. At first when average, meaning not as healthy, narcissists use covert action to gain recognition. If this fails and they get worse, their narcissism becomes more overt, as in look at me. If this fails and they get worse, then the nasty, ruthless destroying others comes into play if not a return to a more averge or better healthier state.

    My infj is enneagram 4w3 wing. So, she has a narcissistic wing. However, prior to this she kept in check much better.

    There is another old thread about unhealthy infj's. It talks a lot about unhealthy infj's and shoing characteristics of low level Estp's when unhealthy. The thread could have been taken from my life. That's what happened to me. My infj didn't previously show a lot of low level Estp type behavior, and certainly not for any extended period either. It's so different from being a reasonably healthy infj. It's so stunning, in a bad way.

    So short of police and legal means, I tried to help myself and others solve this mess. By disappearing she made the mess far worse than need be for herself and others. It caused several people great pain.

    I was hoping with time and space that she would be able to overcome the low level Estp type behavior. That didn't happen. It's gotten worse if anything. I can see how anmd why things snow balled for her and transpired the way they did. But the conclusion will be disastrous for her in the end because she didn't want to face up to her mistakes. She was scared of humiliation imo. That certainly saddens me and angers me considering I was one of a few that knew almost everything about her beyond the image. And, I was one of few she could turn to in trouble. Instead she chose to save herself and step on me, because it was going to cause her least amounts of public humiliation to her image.

    It's choosing unrealistic idealized image over something so much better. ...someone that would stand by you and love you unconditionally no matter what. That's a shame.

    For me, I don't have punishing desires. But I have to help myself and others, no choice.

    Narcissistic behavior was a big factor in my situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaita View Post
    In regards to whether or not an INFJ can be a narcissist...I wonder if introverts are really a good candidate for this disorder. As I understand it narcissistic supply is the motivator, it's something they can only get from interactions with other people. Without other people from which to obtain this supply they are unhappy,low-energy, or volatile. This kind of person would not need or want to spend much time alone. I imagine there are some narcissists who probably type themselves as INFJ (particularly covert narcissists), because that's the image of themselves that they have. Those people who thrive on appearing to be a saint or savior, who protect their fragile self image by pointing out all of the people who "need" them and who they've "helped."

  2. #392
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    You have done everything a person could reasonably be expected to do, and then some. Now handle your business, and let the chips fall where they may.

  3. #393

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    A question I have is whether or not an unhealthy infj, who's behaving like an unhealthy Estp, and unhealthy enneagram 3...can this person dig themselves out of that and back to an average or healthy infj?

    I waited for that to happen. Imo 5 months is a very long time. I realize it's not to an unhealthy infj.

    By bringing the hammer down so to speak, something I didn't want to have to do, but have to do...initially things will be worse for all, and unpredictable too in a bad way. It will set off my infj once word gets back to her. I do have the ability to think of the many years of good/great aspects of my infj. I'm reminded of them daily. And, I do hope in the end to be a non-financially supportive friend from a distance for her for life. I know that's probably a 1% chance of happening. Part of me thought that if I could get her to come clean, and address and solve these living and financial situations asap, that the 1% chance would be much higher and more realistic of a possibility.

    I don't have much of a choice now as I await my flight soon. I know it will be difficult to convince some people of her actions. They will be stunned too. Even with the tons of evidence, sadly, I know some people won't want to believe it and will choose not to do so. That's pretty tough.

    My instincts told me what to think 5 months ago. I chose self-restraint, patience, etc...which were not my instincts.

    Perhaps it's not possible to reach a low functioning infj/Estp/3 behaving person. I'm still showing up in person for that last opportunity. There's no substitute for face to face communication. None. Then it will be friendly intermediaries. Then it will be legal.

    This was so easily solvable. To any infj's out there, don't underestimate the effectiveness of direct communication to clear up facts, truths, from imagination. You'd be surprised just how supportive the other person/people can be sometimes...not all people all the time...but some. And, re-visit and reverse decisions that have already been made. People make mistakes. People aren't perfect, it doesn't exist. You'll lose many great people in your life and great situations and great opportunities because of it.

    She's running and hiding out of fear of humiliation and retaliation. But, if you just come clean, those things go much easier. There's no getting away with it. That doesn't exist. She never left the angry, cover up, stage. She's never come back from that.

  4. #394
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    I see there is a whole other conversation going on in this thread... I love how INFJs with 4W3 are painted as narcissists...
    but as for the original subject, I have, I guess "doorslammed" people a few times. In these cases it has been warranted each time. When it's happened it's because someone has overstepped the line of human decency in some very profound way. I'm easygoing 99% of the time and put up with a lot more than most people, because I can empathize when someone is going through a rough patch. That said there are definite limits to what a person can and should put up with. In my life the incidents have all revolved around betrayal, where a person has gone behind my back and tried to cause me serious trouble. If I find I have a very toxic person in my enviroment then I think cutting all ties is just self-protection.
    I think it's silly to say because you're an INFJ you can't handle adult conflict. How is it that there are many people in long term employment and marriages if that were true, where you have to deal with conflict on a regular basis? I think it's just silly to say that.

  5. #395

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    Not sure if the person above is referencing me or not in terms of narcissism. I can only speak for my own experiences and what I know.

    I am a strong believer in Riso/Hudson type correlations in terms of the enneagram. The infj's of my experience, are 4w3 or 4w5, and sometimes both wings. My infj...and I frequently use the term "my" only to distinguish in limited words my example from generalities. "My" sounds awkward and I'm aware of that. Anyway, my infj is a 4w3. She has shown 4w5 behavior at times. However, she is mostly a heavy 4w3. The 3 type is the narcissistic type.

    Everyone at some point in time will exhibit small doses of narcissism, healthy or unhealthy in the lives, regardless of personality type. Just as everyone at some point in their will exhibit characteristics of all 9 enneagram types imo. However, we have specific types, wings, points of integration and disintegration, etc...and so on, imo.

    I agree with Riso/Hudson, that no person is a 3 first. People can behave like a 3 wing and or behave like a 3 all the time, but their naturally personality is something else, and the narcissism of the the 3 can overshadow one's natural type.

    I know 3's...and all of them are something else first. It may be very difficult cut through to figure out what that is, but all are something else first. Example. Someone can be an 8w7 and deeply narcissistic 3. All 3. But their natural personality is 8w7. It can be next to impossible to eliminate or reduce the 3 in them sometimes. Depends.

    So, for me, I've known several infj, 4w3's. With 3 being the narcissistic type, all of them show some narcissism from time to time. Small or big, more often or less often, healthy, average, unhealthy. But it's there.

    In my example, a healthy infj 4w3, went to average levels and back to healthy much of the time. The unhealthy low levels were not common or often. However, in my example, my infj 4w3 became unhealthy. It first started as average to low average self-indulgence and other things. It became worse with exploitation, rules don't apply, cut corners, etc...cover ups, lies. Isolating people to limit exposure.

    In 9 years this wasn't previously a problem or issue. And, it doesn't become an issue for many people, at all in his/her life or if it does, it's very limited and/or infrequent. Every situation is unique. Any type can be narcissistic. My infj is a 4 first and foremost. She's good at healthy 4 and healthy 1. She's snappy perfectionist in a bad way at average one, which happens occassionally. She can get in the "try too hard" average 2 stage when she's worried about the relationship. When she's quickly reassured she usually moved back to healthy 4 and healthy 1. Healthy 3 was frequent and fine too.

    Previously my infj never behaved at the low levels, at least to these extremes, for this length of time. I noticed reading the "Personality Page" that when infj's get to the point of this, it's next to impossible for them to come back to reality, normal, address immediate urgent issues etc...they merely suggest that an infj doesn't get to that level or it's too late. That was disheartening to read.

    It makes me extremely uncomfortable on so many levels to have to talk to others that we know about our situation. But, one can only be door slammed and/or ignored for so long before having to go out and protect oneself. Part of protecting myself is to tell and show a wide range of people personal private info I'd rather keep private. My infj will be unbelievably upset at that, but I look at it as...I'm not getting anywhere as it is and the damage she caused is only growing. So, hurting her in a very big, public, way has to come first. When that happens and is all over with, then I and others can get her some help. ...or at least try. It makes me very uncomfortable, angry, disappointed, and all of those things that she is choosing to completely ignore reality and she is trying to re-vise history more and more as time goes by. Simple, face to face discussion would have solved this problem in one day, peacefully, happily.

    The push and pull of reality vs vision/fantasy/image. The best place is often in the middle when it comes to that.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post

    My infj is enneagram 4w3 wing. So, she has a narcissistic wing. .

    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    Not sure if the person above is referencing me or not in terms of narcissism. I can only speak for my own experiences and what I know.

    I am a strong believer in Riso/Hudson type correlations in terms of the enneagram. The infj's of my experience, are 4w3 or 4w5, and sometimes both wings. My infj...and I frequently use the term "my" only to distinguish in limited words my example from generalities. "My" sounds awkward and I'm aware of that. Anyway, my infj is a 4w3. She has shown 4w5 behavior at times. However, she is mostly a heavy 4w3. The 3 type is the narcissistic type.
    I was referencing to the earlier post you made. I wouldn't really be comfortable making such broad generalizations about 4W3s being narcissistic based on one singular case, that's all.
    3 wings are usually the more outgoing fours.

  7. #397

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverie View Post
    I was referencing to the earlier post you made. I wouldn't really be comfortable making such broad generalizations about 4W3s being narcissistic based on one singular case, that's all.
    3 wings are usually the more outgoing fours.
    Would you agree that the enneagram 3 is the narcissistic personality type?

    Would you agree that narcissism is part of an enneagram 4w3 wing?

    Would you agree that an infj can be a 4w3?

    Narcissism in and of itself is a neutral term. It can be healthy, average, or unhealthy. Would you also agree with that?

    The enneagram 3 is all about narcissism, good, bad, indifferent. You wouldn't agree with that?

  8. #398

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    I can't tell if you're manic, obsessive, or obtuse. Otherwise, the enneagram threads are thattaway --->^
    "There is no god; there is only us. Savage and fragile."

  9. #399

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I can't tell if you're manic, obsessive, or obtuse. Otherwise, the enneagram threads are thattaway --->^
    Not sure if you are speaking to me...but the answer is none of the above. I couldn't be more calm. That's always a challenge with non-face to face communication. The misinterpretation of moods can happen frequently. Obsessed? Nope. I'm very capable of completing a wide variety of tasks on a daily basis while I wait for my flight. This is a message board, about a specific topic, and I experienced an example of it. Posting my thoughts, questions, comments, experiences, is quite normal. Obtuse? Nope, not insensitive, not lacking intellect, etc...unless you mean the blunt definition of obtuse, which in case I'd say not sure...my communication style is often direct back and forth, 1v1 preferred. You'd have to be more specific. If you posted that because you don't like my posts, you'd have to say so directly to me, and even so, I don't see a need or reason for me to continue to help others and myself through the exchange of info on this topic.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    Would you agree that the enneagram 3 is the narcissistic personality type?

    Would you agree that narcissism is part of an enneagram 4w3 wing?

    Would you agree that an infj can be a 4w3?

    Narcissism in and of itself is a neutral term. It can be healthy, average, or unhealthy. Would you also agree with that?

    The enneagram 3 is all about narcissism, good, bad, indifferent. You wouldn't agree with that?
    I don't think narcissism is usually used as a neutral term. Perhaps it can, but I've never heard anyone refer to a person with a healthy self-regard as a narcissist. The myth of Narcissus definitely refers to an unhealthy self-absorption.

    "Except in the sense of primary narcissism or healthy self-love, "narcissism" usually is used to describe some kind of problem in a person or group's relationships with self and others."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

    I don't agree that enneagram 3 is all about narcissism, more about being successfull and excelling in a public way. It seems that at it's most unhealthiest a 3 would be narcissistic.

    I do think a 4W3 can be an INFJ, as I am one, but I'm no more narcissistic than most people. Many INFJs and INFPs are 4s.
    here's a link http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/flauttrichards.htm

    To be honest I think you're projecting a personal issue with a specific person to a general level. I hope you can find some peace. It's obviously very stressful. Take care!

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