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  1. #341


    Thanks much. As time goes on, my sympathy and empathy fades. However, I have an extremely high level of willpower and resilience, even when most would feel empty. It's been exhausting and devastating...but an Entp trait I possess is that I can literally outlast anyone in anything, if...if...I'm interested in doing so.

    A lower functioning infj will get she deserves. I will painstakingly repair every last relationship strained because of her.

    The most free or freeing feeling is that all I have to do is tell the truth at all times and eventually the situation will be resolved successfully. It's pretty amazing how someone could be so sloppy and careless in the world of lying, stealing, manipulating, and cheating. It's almost a dare that it's so stunning from her that she'd just get away with it and somehow I won't have the energy or won't go to the trouble to confront her.

    It does bother me that she took unconditional love, and in a sense, is making it conditional on my end. But I have to many responsibilities to too many people, and I have too much respect for myself to not unleash the fury so to speak. Once it begins, I won't be able to stop it.

    And yes, I will sleep very well at night, finally, knowing I did absolutely everything possible to avoid and prevent the situation first. That mattered to me. It mattered to me a lot.

  2. #342
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Dec 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    I suspect you are an enfp and you are stuck in a sort of analysis paralysis that can beset our type now and then. I also recognize the pygmalian complex in how you hoped to help this person who seemed to be headed downhill. enfps create people projects, even when we dont realize it consciously-we want to help others find the path that brings them the most happiness. It sounds like you tried to do that and the person opted out in a way that was very strange to your worldview. I dont think that is condescending or insulting, but shows that you did care for this person.

    Some of her behaviors resemble those of an INTJ-the taking one data point and extralopating it to yield meaning that is irrational and inexplicable to the others, which then sets the Ni dom onto an entire new direction.

    Something that is very important to understand-you are trying to analyze this relationship in a Te way and seeking a Te explanation from her..."Why and what was your rationale for acting in such an apparently irrational, unreasonable way?" "Surely, you must have had some reason that, once I hear, will help me understand why you acted the way you did, so that I can forgive you or at least avoid and plan for this in the future?" The need for explanation, for some attempt at rationalization, for some amount of reasoning and a need to speak this conversation aloud to the other person is very much an enfp thing....and she is an INFJ. She doesnt need to do this, thus you waste your time trying to get her to.

    So instead you have come here to try and speak with these INFJs and reach that same level of analytical sometimes things dont hurt so much once you can understand the "why" behind the hurtful action. But I think what you are seeing here with the INFJs is the same thing you see with your INFJ-they feel you are being overly analytical and not listening, and they are, in their own way, asking you to stop having the conversation.

    Instead you keep reframing the convo in Te flavored Fi terms trying to reapproach the topic rationally.

    I totally get what you are dealing with and your need to talk about and analyze the problem. I do this myself endlessly. (haha, try dating an INTJ-we seriously talk about problems like this for hours and hours and hours until every little bit is ironed out )

    I have a great deal of sympathy for your situation, and I do suspect this particular INFJ was a little off kilter-but you will NEVER get to have the convo that you need to sort out the emotions that trouble you, with her, and she will not respond to the type of reasoning you would choose to employ in that conversation-thus I would suggest finding a legal intermediary to handle the financial aspects of the situation and cutting her out of your life as much as possible and learning to work through the emotional side, understanding you may not ever find a satisfying conclusion as to the hows and whys of her behavior.
    Wow, @Orobas! I absolutely loved what you wrote here. I totally do this. And, I've observed - just like you articulated above - that the INFJs in my life don't get this part of me. My wanting to talk about why what happened happened amuses / confounds / pisses them off. And, their reaction to my earnest, heartfelt soul searching completely confounds me.

    I don't mean to get us too off topic here, but I felt that it was important to acknowledge how dead on accurate Orobas was when she posted this. And, I suspect that she is right. BalanceFind could very well be an ENxP on the prowl for a soul-satisfying Te explanation for why his INFJ did what she did.

    But just like Orobas said, BalanceFind will never have the conversation with his INFJ that he wants to have. She doesn't need to have such a conversation and would probably be aggravated at the prospect of having such a conversation.

    Accept this and let it go, @BalanceFind. For your sake... not hers.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #343
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    1w2 so/sx


    The funny thing is, strangely enough the INFJs I know are rather tortured themselves if they can't figure out the why of things as well. Ni goes crazy with too many possibilities. They are rather dogged about understanding what happened so they can adjust their perspective and cut off the generation of ever more possibilities, uncertainty and burgeoning emotional noise that obscures their getting a clear perception of the situation. In the complete absence of ways to get direct information and reduce this discombobulating uncertainty, they may pick the most likely perspective and go with it, even though it could be incorrect.

    Therefore I can theoretically understand the need for ENFPs to get to the bottom of problems and resolve them. I understand the emotional distress that leaving things unresolved produces.

    On the other hand, our ways of going about resolving problems are very different. From our interactions here, I've noticed that ENFPs generally want to solve things in the heat of the moment, while INFJs want to retreat and check their perceptions with someone they trust first. Then they will revisit the problem after they feel they have regained some objectivity or are sure that they are going in the right direction. If there's more stress in their lives, the ENFP needs to understand that this delay period that is needed may be even greater. This delay period is non-negotiable and trying to shorten it up or eliminate it will only result in uncharacteristic hostility.

    I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.

    INFJs get increasingly blunt, believing that their message is not being received and therefore must have been too oblique. ENFPs may hear the message the INFJ is transmitting, but conclude that the INFJs reasoning is flawed and therefore ignore the message, which results in extreme frustration and eventual doorslamming (in some cases). If the ENFP were to back off for just a bit, they would be much more likely to get the resolution that they long for and the INFJ would also be less likely to inadvertantly hurt them.

    This of course is a gross generalization about both INFJs and ENFPs and I don't purport to speak for either. It is also stated from my perspective, but I have seen this situation occur often enough on here that I no longer write it off as immaturity or obtuseness on the part of the ENFP in the way that I once did. It does indicate to me though that if the ENFP really wants resolution, they need to understand this divide in our communication styles before they lose the INFJ's willingness to respect or hear them.

    Thanks Orobas for stating this in terms that may make more sense to Fi-Te ears.

  4. #344


    I'm not interested in the emotions and they why etc...I am only to prevent future mistakes.

    No I want the problem solved in the most fair way possible as soon as possible.
    At this point that solution is 100 percent me.

    I had been hesitant for multiple reasons...not understanding a door slam. I literally thought she was dead in a street somewhere because we normally talked daily. I was actually shocked she wasn't in severe health trouble...and...I wasn't happy to find that out either. I wanted to try to be patient and understanding even though I didn't and don't agree that door slamming is ever an acceptable way to treat anyone. It isn't final, it's just avoidance. Avoidance has consequences. But it isn't final.

    No, I want to walk into my house without a physical confrontation, without police, without legal people. It doesn't sound as though that's gonna happen...oh well. I wanted to not have to spend a lot of money and time on a legal case. Oh well...doesn't sound as though that's gonna happen.

    No I didn't want to have to tell everyone she lied, lied some more, tried to cover it up and tried to manipulate me and others and turn them against me. No, I didn't want to have to waste my time on that. She could have done explained that.

    I'm dealing with someone with a delusional sense of entitlement at the moment, a long several month moment...who seems incapable of understanding basic facts, basic proof, basic logic.

    I'm over the self questioning, self blame, the allowance for more manipulation. That already happened. I'm over the saving someone. I'm over the understanding why this or that.

    No, I just wanted to save myself some money, time, stress and find a way for someone to give me what is legally and rightfully mine without me having to go take it.

    If anything, my regret is not taking more aggressive action much much sooner in terms of confrontation and resolution of the situation. But better late than never. People cab change all the phone numbers they want, emails, go on the run, etc...if someone wants to find you, they will. I did everything I know possible to avoid that.
    It wasn't so much endless analysis, it was can this not be solved simply, get this I get this, we share this, you can have that...etc...done. One day, in person, I could have done it in an hour or less. The delusional sense of entitlement is going to cause her so much suffering. Short term gratification, long term suffering...forever the victim. Just no longer on my time. Forgiveness and re-visiting decisions, is something that would help infj's in my experience. Cheers.

  5. #345
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    6w5 sp/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.
    I have said almost these exact words to a young xNFP (I'm pretty sure) with boundary issues (ie. she doesn't really get that boundaries exist.)

    The rather worrying thing is how often the situation has recurred despite my using this type of punch-in-the-face bluntness. She takes it on board for a while and then things regress, and it's a situation where it would be difficult to entirely cut her out. I don't actually know how much more blunt it is possible to get other than saying "go away, stalker" (I've very nearly said that too.)
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


  6. #346
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    937 so/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, what is your purpose here if I may so enquire?
    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    Forgiveness and re-visiting decisions, is something that would help infj's in my experience. Cheers.
    Ah, thanks for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    I do have a stong Enfp I also have a strong Entp side....when younger it was more Estp meets Esfp down the middle.
    What type (singular) do you think you are? Because ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BalanceFind View Post
    I'm not interested in the emotions and they why ...
    ... sentences like this don't seem to jive with stressed ENFP. There's a boat-load of other sentences that point more to stressed ENTP too.

    But what do you think?


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.
    How do you say that, verbatim, if not exactly like that?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt

    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #347


    The above posts are good examples. One talks about time and space. In my example, 5 months is a ton of time and space. It's very unrealistic imo for an infj to think he/she could get more time than that or even that much time considering the things on the table in my specific situation. It's as if the infj wants to to disappear and sometimes years later he/she will come back and sometimes no. This actually sounds a little like my infj. We've known each other 9 years, but in the very beginning each of us did that...two separate times total, walked away and came back. But I consider that type way different, not knowing each other that long etc..

    I wouldn't be able to go back to a relationship like mine any longer, even if she today came to me and wanted to make everything better. I'd still help her, non-financially forever, on my time and terms, but that's it.

    The 2nd example above talks about fear of confrontation, or stalking or different terms....and that's a good topic too. In my experience, the situation is much different. I'm very understanding that I am a guy and she isn't. I sat and waited 5 months where she was allowed the benefit of the doubt and allowed to get her way....and a lot of that had to do with her being a woman. Again, I was wrong to not confront her and the situation as soon as possible 5 months ago. ...doing so in a professional manner...other situations are very different of course. It all depends.

    For me, there was value in trying to figure out what was real and what was manipulation. And, a lot of it is so I didn't keep making mistakes with the same person and that I can better limit them in the future. There's value to the recipient of door slams and or manipulation, to get facts, to understand what was and is true and not. On the end, in this situation for example, because she didn't check in, she made big huge mistakes in assumptions. She assumed the worst of me because she thought, well if she hurts me, I must be going around hurting her or saying bad things about her. It stunned her to find out that didn't happen. It didn't change her actions as she didn't re-visit anything but it definitely shocked her. Gotta check in to know facts and what's real or not. Sometimes simple in person conversations can clear up a lot of confusion.

    If an infj door slams, and gets no check in reference points of facts, an infj can get into his/her own head, and in my case, memories and thoughts were confused and mixed from different people, different times etc...

    Another thing I mentioned was the rapid fire of comments/complaints, some of which were from so long ago, and some factual incorrect. To someone else, for example, let's say you have a problem many years prior, and the infj never says anything,'s a lose/lose because the infj suffers silently a long time and sulks...and never properly let's go of that complaint...and often times that complaint then becomes far bigger than what reality deserves. It doesn't mean it isn't important or valuable. The other non infj suffers because this becomes a secretive grudge unnecessarily. My first thought and reaction to myself was, what? 9 years ago is 9 years ago. Then I'd think, okay, I'm willing to sit down and go over that issue and make it better for both as best as possible and move on....but I find that sometimes infj's prefer to hold on to that "pain" if you will for some sort of power. My response then would increasingly be that I was and am willing to process that tpic in depth, come to agreement and keep moving forward. Life doesn't stop, it keeps moving forward. Maybe there is value to others here with what I'm saying, maybe not.

    Solving problems is something I doesn't mean molding or fixing people. I leave people alone to find their own way unless they ask for specific help or strategy. So, for example, an infj can be him or herself, but there can also be problems outside of the personal scope that need to be addressed. ....If I ever get new information that conflicts with what I know, I'm willing to re-visit a situation again and is forever's something I don't understand about infj's. It isn't productive for anyone, if you make a decision, realize it's wrong but stick with it because you don't re-visit things. Forgiveness or lackthereof is also a big one.

    In the end, if you lie, steal, cheat, and intentionally hurt, exploit, and or manipulate others, I don't think twice about protecting myself or others. I don't care what our relationship was or wasn't. I don't care if you are a woman and I am a man. You will suffer the consequences. And, because I'm relatively healthy, I'm not interested in revenge. No I don't care about you/the one who did harm in the process. I only care about the truth, and protecting and restoring justice to those who were hurt. Walking away and doing nothing is never something I would do. I have too much respect for myself for that.

    Will there be a messy confrontation with a lot of people? Quite possibly. If the other person, an infj in this situation is unhealthy and or unstable, the reaction will be volatile and unpredictable....but what do I care...that's the way it's been for 5 months, 5months too long.

  8. #348
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have learned that what I believe is a very clear way of saying, "You are overwhelming or irritating me. I don't want to have to be unkind, so you need to leave me alone for a bit. If you follow me literally or verbally, you will force me to be very direct or avoid you entirely," is not heard by ENFPs as that.
    Hey fidelia...if you could...would you explain to me the bolded? At first - I thought that maybe I was taking this statement out of context...but I reread what came before a few times and it doesn't appear that I am. The reason this jumped out at because you are actually stating (although it is unclear if you intended to or not)...that people, especially ENFPs, are supposed to know what you believe...and pick-up on the subsequent message without it actually being stated in reality? <--- is that what you are saying?? Help me out here.

    I mean...I have sorta gathered from this thread that INFJs feel that no longer speaking to another person automatically sends out that message. But I have lived on this planet for more years than I will admit to in this thread...and I promise you it doesn't. Like BalancedFind has alluded to...sometimes it means an individual has been in a terrible accident...or is dead...or has completely lost their minds and wandered off somewhere. Sometimes people become incredibly busy. And it has been my experience that MOST people...when they want someone to 'back-off'...say outright 'back-off'. in possibilities. They will not settle on just one until 'instructed' to do so. If you want an ENFP to back-off...say what you said...but in reality. An ENFP will be able to understand that. In may quickly learn how 'not stalkery and gone' an ENFP can really get.

  9. #349


    I can add to the above. Often times to me in life, truth, is in the middle. An introverted person may want to passive aggressively handle a situation and and extroverted person may want to be direct. In reality, being too extreme in either way imo is not the way to go.

    It's a juggling act of when to be more direct or indirect or in the middle. If you stay too long in one extreme, in my experience, problems happen.

    How I've posted here for the most part is not how I'd be in real life because it's a crisis situation. If I carried in that manner all the time, it'd cause me problems.

    I have gained the most information in my situation through direct contact. After 5 months, I was able to speak with her on the phone...caught her way off guard by surprise. But she stayed on the call briefly. First, she spoke and said repeatedly that I'd get my money I'd get my money. That gave me info that she has no clue what am doing or saying with others. I hadn't spoken about my money to anyone she knows. It told me she was self aware enough to know that she took my money and to speak. She is aware that it is a big deal. It told me she knows what she did was wrong. I had no idea what was going on with her. The other thing I did quickly on phone was tell her that if you don't check in you get facts wrong. I told her what I think, do, say, feel, is only found out through direct communication. She became aware temporarily at least that she jumped to way wrong conclusions. When I mentioned to her I planned on living in the house, she mentioned the police. All of this direct communication helpful. When I mentioned she could sign over a property in her name, to me, asap, it would roughly be an exchange for the cost of the current house in question. That'd be a quick and painless soultion for both, a win/win to some extent. Although I really do want this particular house she's living in...and spent years on it...I was willing to just cut my losses and trade out and go from there. Her response, as she was caught off guard was shock. She hasn't been trying to sell that property, and she never considered doing so. I thought all that time that she was working on that. She lied in the sense she never was working on it. She can be very convincing in her lies. Great actress. Great drama.

    This direct communication allows me to change and improve my strategy. It has been incredibly valuable. It's allowed me to see where she is emotionally, mentally, physically, even geographically. I was also able to gain info that she has lied to other people both in regards to house ownership, and also in regards to me. As I stated a few people are not speaking to me. These are/were past good friends whom in which I nor they have an issue. I can conclude that she is saying things to them that aren't true. She is fearful she will be exposed and left behind by everyone. Instead of choosing to be exposed and vulnerable and adjusting expectations to something much more reasonable of herself and others, she chose image. She chose an all out attempt to have her cake and eat it too.

    I have many faults. I make mistakes every day. But it's imperative for anyone to find some balance in forms of communication.

  10. #350


    There are times when taking the hint is reasonable. Someone doesn't return your calls, and there are no loose ends...I don't like passive aggressive behavior, but it's within reason to just walk away in those situations. Say you date a new person for example, go out a time or two, person doesn't return contact, disappears....that's within reason.

    In that scenario, being overly direct or repeatedly direct will cause problems too. Obviously there are people who prefer both extremes. And, there are people that do both.

    A problem is the belief that one can door slam without facing loose end consequences to actions. A door slamming person may say, back off indirectly by door slam....but life doesn't stand still for that person nor others. A door slamming person may choose to slam and indirectly say back off, but that doesn't mean others need to bow to the dictator of door slam. It's always always always a two way street. One person is never more important than the other.

    In my situation, when it's done, I will have done both extremes and the middle in my choices of interaction style. She has chosen one, in an extreme manner. And, I'm comfortable knowing I've done my best. I'm human, I'm going to feel terrible
    about it for a long time. But I won't feel responsible, because I've tried different ways and means.

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