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  1. #1661
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Sorry I don't mean to create obstacles. I'm just trying to find ways to that might help clarify things. I'm not intentionally focussing on Fe, we just started talking about that and then the conversation carried on down that path. I'm not consciously steering the discussion that way. I guess also it does make it easier for me to discuss Judging functions as I lead with one.

    If you feel a different path would be more productive, set one up.
    Regarding the above quote- it actually seems to me like if there's any type that can always walk into a new environment full of new people and instantly interact as if they already know everyone.....it's a Ne/Se dom. (I mean- just to show how 'the grass is greener'- it seems to me like Pe dom/aux have the advantage in this regard.)
    Absolutely. I didn't mean to say that I think you guys have it all easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I pretty much agree that it's more specifically about "the self". The reason I lean more to talking about "individuals" is that I worry if I use "self" that it will be interpreted as "myself". I get lazy with the language because it can be exhausting to explain everything in detail with all the caveats.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #1662

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    If someone convinces me to turn away from the inner voice, I can feel a lot of resentment in that.
    The same applies for INFJs being obligated to doubt or abandon their own inner voice (Ni)...so as to cater to others' needs (Fe-aux)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Here's an example:

    My ISFP friend was in relationship with a ENFJ*....He then looked at her with concern and asked her, "what's going on? Are you OK? You seem really stressed out lately" - he basically turned the whole thing around as being a result of her own stress. My friend crumbled at that point. She figured that she must be acting all crazy and paranoid, admitting she was really tired and under a lot of pressure. He then spent some time comforting her and listening to what has been on her mind. About a week later she caught him in bed with the actress.

    I think this serves as a good example of an unhealthy ENFJ...after 01:00 minute mark, it resembles what your ISFP friend has gone through....



    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    *Sorry, I don't mean to pass off their flaws on INFJs. I've just known far more of them and the distortion is easier to spot and explain. Take this as an approximation, not a literal 1-1 correlation. I also realise this is an extreme example, and is not necessarily indicative of all forms of it.
    Ni can bypass most internal ego-defense systems in INFJs...To be a good liar/manipulator, one has to trick oneself into believing in one's own lies...Ni wouldn't allow that...I think Ni-dom has something to do with an overdeveloped super-ego...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    When I step back from people in general, I just stop doing more than the bare basics of politeness, while trying to inch towards the exit.
    Do you always tell them why...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I suppose, but my own theory of this is that people who end up with their presents being off, started down that path by their own volition. That's just an opinion though...
    I think it starts in childhood and is related to upbringing and family dynamics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I can't decide either way...

    I'm not sure what else to say. I'm open to questions if you want.

    What does the two adjective system signify? Objective Objective, Objective Subjective etc.? Any link would also do...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    When I interact with people, I desire to make a positive contribution to their life in any way I can (by lessening their load?)...Sometimes I see (thru Ni, and Ni is not easy to convince) that I've accomplished my mission and I feel good/blissful in return...Like my presence in the world adds up to something significant...like I am not drifting aimlessly...like I matter....

    So Fi-dom doesn't have any expectation from B when interacting with B? A desire of Fi-dom's identity/values/contribution to be recognized, acknowledged?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I imagine you have the same concerns and approach with figuring out people's intentions.
    I just try to adjust my attitude and distance towards any of them (by trying to identify their intent, motivations etc.)...

  3. #1663
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The same applies for INFJs being obligated to doubt or abandon their own inner voice (Ni)...so as to cater to others' needs (Fe-aux)...
    I could see that.

    I think this serves as a good example of an unhealthy ENFJ...after 01:00 minute mark, it resembles what your ISFP friend has gone through....

    From what she told me that was pretty much how she reacted too, figurative speaking.

    It's funny how the nicest, most sweet-tempered people can be like a wild animal when they're enraged. She would probably say it was the Greek in her...

    Ni can bypass most internal ego-defense systems in INFJs...To be a good liar/manipulator, one has to trick oneself into believing in one's own lies...Ni wouldn't allow that...I think Ni-dom has something to do with an overdeveloped super-ego...
    Perhaps this is the case in most situations. But I would argue that there are some prime cases of famous INFJs that went off the rails and believed their own BS. Of course there are plenty of cases where famous INFJs guided people back onto the rails too - especially when it came to refocussing their humanity.

    So how does Ni correct this stuff and prevent it from happening? How does that work?

    Do you always tell them why...?
    No, because I'm a coward. That and I'm afraid of upsetting them.

    What does the two adjective system signify? Objective Objective, Objective Subjective etc.? Any link would also do...
    God, this concept has done the rounds so much I have no idea where it originally came from. Sorry.

    To expand:
    Te: Objectively assesses objective criteria
    Ti: Subjectively assesses objective criteria
    Fe: Objectively assesses subjective criteria
    Fi: Subjectively assesses subjective criteria

    So the first part is the method (based on whether the Judging function is introverted or extroverted - ie. Ji vs Je) and the second part is the data source that is focussed on (based on whether it is F or T). Fe for example, uses an external system (ie. what works for the collective) to analyse subjective information (ie. non-impersonal data).

    When I interact with people, I desire to make a positive contribution to their life in any way I can (by lessening their load?)...Sometimes I see (thru Ni, and Ni is not easy to convince) that I've accomplished my mission and I feel good/blissful in return...Like my presence in the world adds up to something significant...like I am not drifting aimlessly...like I matter....
    Yeah, this is what I was trying get at

    So Fi-dom doesn't have any expectation from B when interacting with B? A desire of Fi-dom's identity/values/contribution to be recognized, acknowledged?
    No, I'm not as goal-driven as that - well, not as goal-driven in practical terms. Occasionally, I might have a vague desire for some result but it's more along the lines of inspiring a realisation, a moment of clarity or connection, an emotional awareness, a feeling of validation etc - but never really a "contribution" per se. I guess I sort of hope that if I put people in the right frame of mind they might have the tools to go out there and affect positive change in their own lives in the way they see fit.

    But mostly I'm just putting stuff out there without any expectation of what people should do with it; it's more observational in content.

    I just try to adjust my attitude and distance towards any of them (by trying to identify their intent, motivations etc.)...
    Oops I just realised I put the wrong part of your post in quotes regarding this. Sorry.

    Do you mind expanding on this? How is it different for people you know well, like family, compared with strangers?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #1664

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Perhaps this is the case in most situations. But I would argue that there are some prime cases of famous INFJs that went off the rails and believed their own BS. Of course there are plenty of cases where famous INFJs guided people back onto the rails too - especially when it came to refocussing their humanity.
    I didn't mean to imply that I (or Ni-dom) is infallible...And I hope this is not about Hitler or someone similar...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    So how does Ni correct this stuff and prevent it from happening? How does that work?
    Well, it (super-ego) basically keeps berating the ego/self about how it should've known better...or produces all kinds of counter arguments as to how the ego is lying to itself...

    I don't know how the process works exactly...Ni gazes onto itself perhaps...I can cut myself some slack thru Ti counter narratives sometimes I guess to silence Ni...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Do you mind expanding on this? How is it different for people you know well, like family, compared with strangers?
    My relations with people I know well are not filtered thru typology that much...they are much more casual and reflexive...I use typology mostly to understand strangers and acquaintances better...

  5. #1665
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    The word is the approximation to this image I have in my head of the different methods of interaction. This is just my view of it (ie. I don't mean to say this is the objective view of things). So imagine an interaction between the Fi/Fe user (person A) and another person (B):

    Fe: A <----> B

    Fi: A ....?.... B

    For me Fe is so much about the arrows between the people. It's so much about movement. It's like I can feel the breeze formed behind the stuff being shifted. There's also so much more connectivity between the two people - the arrows are like the glue of relationships. "Affect" in this sense means to be emotionally impacted by the other person and for them to be emotionally impacted by you in return. Even if B doesn't attempt to impact A in return, A seems to maintain the reverse arrow (pointing to them) by somehow making part of themselves into a vacuum which sucks an impact out of person B. I mean all this in no negative sense BTW.

    Fi doesn't have the arrows; the interaction is less tangible and external. Have you seen Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? You know that scene where they send a chocolate bar to the TV set via Wonkavision. I think of Fi being like that: all those millions of tiny pieces flying through the air, mysteriously being somehow put together at the other end. It's like externally there is no connection between the two points but somehow the message is transmitted and received. But problems can sometimes arise when the chocolate bar doesn't get put together in the way it was before it was transmitted (or if it was the wrong flavour).

    (Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. This description is what I mean about pure communication of Fi being weird and abstract)
    This makes perfect senses, as well as this:
    Te: Objectively assesses objective criteria
    Ti: Subjectively assesses objective criteria
    Fe: Objectively assesses subjective criteria
    Fi: Subjectively assesses subjective criteria
    Fe is always externally logical, while Fi follows its own logic that is not apparent to anyone else. Fi users with Fi users respect that about each other and don't question the validity of this assessment method. This system, however, is extremely confusing for Fe users, who feel that they lack the external logic to work with.

    Tips for Fe users: this hidden system seems scary because you don't know what's in there, so do expect your interactions to simply 'not work' sometimes, and it's not anybody's fault, and there's nothing wrong with that. The thing to keep in mind is, Fi gives you a lot of room to breathe, and you can be a little quirky with your requirements and be off the hook without having to explain anything. To put it tactlessly, "That's how I am. Deal with it" is a pretty acceptable answer.

    Tips for Fi users: feel free to openly negotiate whatever you want. Fe doesn't take offense. Directly ask Fe why it does certain things, as Fe will be able to explain in full detail why it thinks it's a good thing, and if you don't agree, say so. Fe will try to find a way to compromise. It might seem tacky that these things have to be talked about in the open, but Fe wholeheartedly welcomes that and you will find that communication is a lot smoother.

    Common scenario for problems: Fe hints, hints, hints, and Fi doesn't get it so Fe gets more and more hurt until it explodes. Fi tries to take it on silently, until it cannot stand it anymore and gets more and more hurt, until it explodes as well in cold Te-mode. Then it all goes to hell.


    I feel like I keep saying the same thing over and over >_<
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  6. #1666
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I feel like I keep saying the same thing over and over >_<
    That's because it needs to be said over and over. We need people on both sides of this saying, "THIS is how you translate." There is a lot of knowledge to be shared, if people on both sides get over their peculiar typological preferences and attempt to speak and listen in the other types' "language".
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #1667
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    Yay! Actual practical information based on lived experience! In the zombie doorslam thread that will never die! Will this, like much of the other practical bits of info here, get lost amidst the dysfunctional clusterf*ck dynamic or not? Let's see.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    this hidden system [Fi] seems scary because you don't know what's in there, so do expect your interactions to simply 'not work' sometimes, and it's not anybody's fault, and there's nothing wrong with that.
    This "sometimes we just won't get each other and that is perfectly okay" thing (including but not limited to the above slice of it) is IMO a basic crucial tool that those of us in actual real life INFJ-INFP relationships seem to get when it's articulated ... but this basic information is not in any way informing INFJ/INFP related dialogue in this thread, and I believe it has already come up before here.

    The thing to keep in mind is, Fi gives you a lot of room to breathe, and you can be a little quirky with your requirements and be off the hook without having to explain anything. To put it tactlessly, "That's how I am. Deal with it" is a pretty acceptable answer.
    This is quite true in my lived experience with my INFP. It's been quite a revelation for me! It wouldn't have occurred to me to do this at first - I was always looking around to see if there was agreement for using "how I am" in mutual decisions with her. That just annoyed her. The clearer and stronger I am on "That's how I am. Deal with it," the better things are between us. In our case, it seems to be a seriously mutually beneficial way to interact - she seems to like it way better when I do this, and knowing I can do this helps me get centered in Ni-Se percception as I very much need to do in my own trajectory. I had to learn this through experience over time, though. I wish someone had told me about this years ago!

    However, this is key for me: I have to be able and willing to say it and mean it. This means that on my end, I have to know the "how I am" information, be relatively centered in my own ways of perceiving and doing, and be able and willing step up and say it clearly without needing her permission or agreement This IMO is a big part of why any INFP-INFJ interaction that actively undermines the INFJ's ability to get centered enough to get clear and step up and say this kind of thing will have unnecessary stress, in my experience. Telling an INFJ that we don't know or understand what's going on and should use Fe-aux more and/or listen to how the Fi-dom sees it without giving us the space to figure out where we're coming from can be a problem. Similarly, framing our choices in such a way that us having boundaries indicates something wrong with us, rather than being normal necessary space that needs respecting - also opposes what's useful for healthy interaction between INFJs and INFPs. In large part, this thread is a classic example of what not to do in this regard.

    Of course, if actual healthy interaction between the two types isn't the goal in any interaction, this kind of practical information is irrelevant.

    I feel like I keep saying the same thing over and over >_<
    I think that it's very possible that the INFP-INFJ discussions in this thread are not actually about supporting learning for healthy interactions between INFPs and INFJs in real life personal connections including mutual care (of any sort). It seems to me that in this thread, much if not all of the dialogue on these things is firmly inside the middle ground/middle layer area - that place that those of us in actual real cross-type relationships know is the absolute worst place for INFJ-INFP interactions to take place. All information that doesn't feed back into that middle space seems to gets lost. From my perspective, this is a huge energy drain and an unfortunate waste.

    If there aren't basic shared goals (and quite possibly, some level of real mutual care) underneath the different processing paths, there really isn't a place to stand for healthy INFJ-INFP learning and interaction IMO. And I do suspect that's what's going on in these parts of the dialogue here.

  8. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's because it needs to be said over and over. We need people on both sides of this saying, "THIS is how you translate." There is a lot of knowledge to be shared, if people on both sides get over their peculiar typological preferences and attempt to speak and listen in the other types' "language".
    ^^ I disagree with this in the INFP-INFJ case. My disagreement is based on my lived experience in an INFJ-INFP couple relationship for the last 4+ years.

    Part of what keeps getting lost in this thread is that sometimes with INFPs and INFJs, it's best not to try to translate. Sometimes we just won't understand certain things about each other, and that is OKAY. For INFJ-INFP interactions, there's a whole area/level/layer where trying to translate to understand each other yields nothing but tension, stress, increasing/spiraling negative energy, and a sense of going around and around and around and never getting anywhere.

    This wisdom of lived experience keeps getting lost in the ungroundedness of this thread, with people going on and on based on very little or no lived experience with INFJ-INFP dynamics in real life and/or based on a history of decidedly unhealthy INFP-INFJ interactions.

    Discussion here is taking place in the very area of INFJ-INFP interaction that is worst for our two types to interact in. At least a couple of us in close personal connection across type have brought up the existence of such an area of interaction (as has one INTJ, @Coriolis, in a relationship with an INTP, some similar dynamics there apparently). But this information hasn't made a dent so far.

  9. #1669
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Part of what keeps getting lost in this thread is that sometimes with INFPs and INFJs, it's best not to try to translate. Sometimes we just won't understand certain things about each other, and that is OKAY. For INFJ-INFP interactions, there's a whole area/level/layer where trying to translate to understand each other yields nothing but tension, stress, increasing/spiraling negative energy, and a sense of going around and around and around and never getting anywhere.
    That's a good point. Part of being able to communicate an idea often involves learning what NOT to say, which topics NOT to touch. Yeah, it all fits together in your own head, but trying to convey that to the rest of the world would just be confusing.

    But I believe it's still valuable to get an idea what the differences are. You have to go down the non-productive road in order to realize that it isn't productive. It's helpful to know that the annoying difference that you're feeling is not irrationality, is not a personal slight, it's just how the other person is. That is to say, it helps to be able to identify the traits of this Fe/Fi tarbaby topic before getting too many limbs stuck in there ...
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    That's a good point. Part of being able to communicate an idea often involves learning what NOT to say, which topics NOT to touch. Yeah, it all fits together in your own head, but trying to convey that to the rest of the world would just be confusing.

    But I believe it's still valuable to get an idea what the differences are. You have to go down the non-productive road in order to realize that it isn't productive. It's helpful to know that the annoying difference that you're feeling is not irrationality, is not a personal slight, it's just how the other person is. That is to say, it helps to be able to identify the traits of this Fe/Fi tarbaby topic before getting too many limbs stuck in there ...
    In my view, INFP-INFJ "trying to understand each other" interactions in this thread have gone far far beyond usefulness in this regard. I think the lack of shared goals piece may well be crucial to understanding why.

    As for me, I actually wish that I'd had access to some of the information that keeps getting lost in this thread. I mean, I wish I had had this information when my partner and I were first learning how to interact and move together. I/we would still have needed to learn certain things through lived experience and related dialogue. There is a basic level of understanding of respective cognitive functions that is useful for sure, in our experience. But we for sure could have used the information about that middle process/level and "sometimes we don't need to understand each other" as a resource! Getting stuck in the tar pit without understanding that we really don't have to be there, and struggling and wasting energy that could be used for much better purposes - this serves no healthy purpose, in my lived experience.

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